Interesting read

[Gab1707]

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9128878

"Apple's Safari will fall first at hacker contest, past winner predicts."

[Tony-S]

Yeah, did you see the part where this "past winner" was given access to the OS and was sitting at the computer because no one could breech it on the first day of the competition? Now that's a real-world example, eh? :rolleyes:

[Faolan]

It is a real world example as they only used methods that a normal user could do. All they did was invoke a crafted script into Safari. No different from a user getting a email and clicking on it or clicking on a malicious link in a browser. What was scary about the hack it didn't even invoke the UA.

It's embarrassing to Apple because unlike Vista it fell to purely internal software. Vista fell to a combined Java and Flash hack which would have taken out any of three platforms due to the fact it was a cross-platform hack.

Read the rules and what they do to crack the systems. It as I said months back in that it's no longer the OS is the security risk but the applications that run on top of it.

[MaxxuM]

Yea, I didn't see the big deal about this in the first place. Yea, it's like saying someone cannot rob your house because the security is good so you let him in as a guest and then go to the kitchen to wash dishes well knowing that he's trying to rob you. In addition, the OS was not hardened (something that all servers must be these days) and he had to use an external source to breach security that a well setup router would have blocked. PLUS the guy that did it was foremost in his field (NSA I believe). So, breaking into a non-server OS, that has not been hardened, left at defalt levels by an expert is a non-issue for me. It would never happen on my Mac's. It sorta makes me feel a little better when an expert can only get into my system if I don't use a firewall and leave the door wide open for him LOL ;)

[Faolan]

Are you saying that the Black Hats in the field aren't up to the NSA standards? The attacks by black hats are worth a lot of money with some scripts and exploitable vulns going for thousands so there is incentive. There is now a thriving black market for this and has been for a number of years.

By your analysis and views Ubuntu and Vista are a better OS because of the default installation and patches.

Also how many home users know how to lock down a OS let alone a router? Not that many... Most rely on the default installation. Also there is the fact a lot of users use cable or DSL modems which offer little or no security.

[Gab1707]

Most consumer level routers/firewalls can be bypassed by a good hacker. They offer decent protection but if someone wants to get in, they will.

[MaxxuM]

Are you saying that the Black Hats in the field aren't up to the NSA standards? The attacks by black hats are worth a lot of money with some scripts and exploitable vulns going for thousands so there is incentive. There is now a thriving black market for this and has been for a number of years.

By your analysis and views Ubuntu and Vista are a better OS because of the default installation and patches.

Also how many home users know how to lock down a OS let alone a router? Not that many... Most rely on the default installation. Also there is the fact a lot of users use cable or DSL modems which offer little or no security.

Just saying that's who did it, not some obscure hacker, but a trained U.S. programmer/analyst. An expert whereas many 'black hats' are nothing but script kitty's.

I'm also acknowledging that most people don't know how to harden their computers or are not informed enough not to run bad programs. Thus the reason there are thousands of zombie computers out there (90% of which are Windows machines I might add). I simple stated facts, a hacker had to be allowed into the computer and given free roam of it, had to go to an external site and then he gained access. No direct method worked on any system. OS X was 'meant' to be user friendly in this regard - not open to the world. NO OS is safe if you give a hacker direct access to your computer. Just because Vista was more secure in this method does not make it a safer OS. OS X had be hardened just as much and more than any UNIX station, but in the end the weakest point is the user not the computer. As long as users don't go running hacker scripts and not go to hacked sites. The number one rule of staying safe is 'never get on the grid'. Once you are known you are in danger.

If you feel so good about Vista I can go find a hacking community I go to from time to time and I'll pass along your IP address and we'll see how long your computer lasts :)

[Faolan]

Most Zombie machines are XP which people are clinging on to. Vista has proven far more robust so far. It's not perfect but the steps M$ took to lock down the workstation particularly the 64bit version are far better than any other older version.

The way the Pwn2Own works in three stages:

Day 1 All laptops will be open only for Remotely exploitable Pre-Auth vulnerabilities which require no user interaction.

Day 2 The attack surfaces increases to also include any default installed client-side applications which can be exploited by following a link through email, vendor supplied IM client or visiting a malicious website.

Day 3 Assuming the laptops are still standing, we will finally add some popular 3rd party client applications to the scope.

(from: http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2008/03/19/cansecwest-pwn-to-own-2008)

All ops are given 30min to crack the machine that's not a lot of time to take one out.

However as you stated (and I have previously) the biggest security risk is the user, and Pwn2Own showed what could happen. Apple is gaining a bigger share in the US market so it's a matter of time to be more actively targetted if it continues to grow. This has been proven by hackers tracking vectors in Firefox. I know what you're saying about allowing a hacker access to your system but remember they are representing a user so if they can pull of the hack there's little doubt you could get a user to do it.

Also the report I posted a few weeks backs up the Pwn2Own about Mac security and it's reputation.

X-Force Report (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=648716)

Also Windows is designed to go into a public environ so it's easy to lock it down in comparison to a Mac, all you need to do is use SecPol to lock the profile/machine down then make the profile Mandatory. Takes all of about 5 min to do if you have the policies in place.

[wlescall]

Apple OSX Security Guides (http://www.apple.com/support/security/guides/)

Apples guides in pdf format.

[Moppie]

Thus the reason there are thousands of zombie computers out there (90% of which are Windows machines I might add).


That number should be closer to 95%, since about 95% of the worlds computers are running windows ;)
I would guess that is much closer to 100% though, since Apple and Linux systems make up such a small percentage of the potenial bot market, there has been very little effort put into exploiting it.

As the market share changes of course, so will the potential gain from exploiting Apple systems, and it will happen.
If there is one thing humanity has proven good at it, it is the ablity to exploit each other for personal gain.