Letting them use the photos in return for a pass?

[FootAJ]

Like the title says, what's the general consensus on this? Basically, I jumped right into concert photography and I'm loving it. I'm shooting at least 1 show a week on top of shooting at least one nightclub a week.

Now that I'm shooting groups who aren't local unknowns, I've run into the issue of having no publication. However, I've started offering to shoot on behalf of the venues to build my portfolio. For instance, I'm shooting Bang Camaro on behalf of the venue this Friday. They'll let me shoot the show and keep all rights to the images as long as they can use them on their photo blog. Sounds fair to me since, realistically, they have no reason to PAY for the photos when I'm a freelance photographer not working on assignment.

However, I used it as a bargaining chip yesterday. I contacted the venue I shot Clutch at about using my photos, and they said they were interested in using them and I'd get name credit. I e-mailed them back saying I'm willing to let them use the photos for name credit IF they hook me up with a George Clinton photo pass, which I'd also let them use the photos from for name credit. Realistically, I figure if they like my photos, I'll ask for some free admissions for some friends, and maybe a few comps on drinks or food, and then let them use my pictures for name credit.

Obviously "giving" away work for free isn't the best idea, but as a freelance photographer who can't work for a publication just yet due to lack of experience, I figure it's not a bad idea? Shoot and let the venues use the photos on their online galleries, in return I get the photo pass, keep all rights, and can possibly get some comps out of it.

So, what's the general consensus?

[DDCSD]

So, what's the general consensus?

Have a contract. :)



But seriously, I've been torn on this. I've been pretty fortunate in getting credentials to pretty much every show that I've wanted to shoot so far without having to go through the venue. I hate the idea of giving away my photos. I would make sure that you have a contract and it spells out exactly what the photos can be used for and what they cannot be used for and what you get out of the deal.

[FootAJ]

Have a contract. :)



But seriously, I've been torn on this. I've been pretty fortunate in getting credentials to pretty much every show that I've wanted to shoot so far without having to go through the venue. I hate the idea of giving away my photos. I would make sure that you have a contract and it spells out exactly what the photos can be used for and what they cannot be used for and what you get out of the deal.

I totally agree on the contract, that's what I currently do regarding the clubs/parties I shoot. I suppose using one with a venue for each show isn't a bad idea. If I do get these passes, I'd see about doing a "semi" house photographer deal, just shooting shows that interest me. If that worked out, I'd just go a week-to-week contract.

[DDCSD]

I totally agree on the contract, that's what I currently do regarding the clubs/parties I shoot. I suppose using one with a venue for each show isn't a bad idea. If I do get these passes, I'd see about doing a "semi" house photographer deal, just shooting shows that interest me. If that worked out, I'd just go a week-to-week contract.


I think a week to week contract would be a pain. I would just make one that states that any images provided are solely your property and are only to be used for the venues' website, etc...

[kmb]

Web usage for a venue does not sound too bad (based on the culture where I live in, not US - people do much worse here for no compensation).

Now that I'm shooting groups who aren't local unknowns, I've run into the issue of having no publication.

Just as a side note, if you're doing this for the 'art', it does not really matter if who you're shooting are "unknown" or not. For instance, many bands that have at least some cult following but are unknown to the larger public are really cool to photograph - they've chosen to do music that appeals to a small audience and therefore they're often more about music and less about appearances and shallowness.

I have the opportunity to shoot major shows (for instance last year KISS, Iron Maiden and Foo Fighters, and so on), but I feel I get much more out of the smaller bands.

they have no reason to PAY for the photos when I'm a freelance photographer not working on assignment.

Well, to be honest, they have three possible reasons for not paying you:
a) they don't need to as you're willing to give the photos for free
b) they don't see your photos (or possibly any photos) worth the price
c) somebody else will do it for free

Doesn't have much to do with you not being on assignment.

However, I used it as a bargaining chip yesterday. I contacted the venue I shot Clutch at about using my photos, and they said they were interested in using them and I'd get name credit.

Name credit should in no circumstances seen as any sort of compensation. It is what should happen when your photos are published, and if it does not happen, the price should be increased.

[FootAJ]

kmb, thanks for the reply. I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Regarding the "art" issue, I'll just elaborate a bit. Shooting local or more underground bands usually yields better luck when getting a photo pass, but at the same time, shooting larger bands has a different feel to it and really seems to be a different beast altogether. For instance, I really haven't shot any larger bands, so I've never run into any sort of "3 song rule" and such. I have no preference of "well known" vs. "unknown", but it seems quite common that if you want a pass for a big show, you need to know someone at that venue who can pull some strings or you need to be working for a publication who can get you that pass.

As for not paying for the photos, you're right. It really has nothing to do with not being on assignment, and I totally misspoke on that one. However, I can tell you that I'm quite confident that my pictures are worth paying for, but they just want to use them for their "photo" gallery online. Now, should they pay? Yeah, probably. Do they ever? Nope. They don't pay for photos for their gallery since they usually come from either random fans who shoot them from the crowd with a point and shoot, or they come from photographers like me trying to get something out of the deal. Now, there are 2 venues in play here:

1. This venue I've never shot at before, and said they're willing to give me a photo pass if they can use their photos on their photo blog. I'm OK with this mainly because they don't plan on using them for anything other than "photos from the show", and looking at what they have and the size of the venue, they made it pretty clear that they won't be paying and that this is the only way I'll get a pass.

2. This venue I have shot at before, and I contacted them about using my photos from the last show. They got back to me saying they'd give me name credit on their gallery, and I responded saying I would normally charge but if they hook me up with a George Clinton pass, I'll shoot on their behalf. Now, this gives me access to a high profile event, I keep all rights on my photos, and this could easily open the door to a house photographer opportunity.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like giving away my work for free, but it seems that I definitely AM getting something out of these 2 situations. The first, I get a photo pass I wouldn't have gotten before and I get some publicity at a very small, local venue. In the second, I get access to a high profile event, some comps for my friends to get in, and then of course get some photos out there and get my name out there.

[canadatv]

In the last year, I've done a lot of work building a network of industry contacts, bands, publicists, etc. with the goal of getting into major gigs and building a solid concert portfolio. I am hoping this translates into more paid work for things like local band promo shoots, theatre work, etc. Here is what I have found:

- most venues, big and small, have a diminishing need to buy professional photography services due to a variety of reasons including shrinking budgets and the widely available (yet poor quality) fan shots.
- concert photography in itself is not a viable revenue stream
- being a house photographer at a venue means different things to different people. I shoot for a local club for free in exchange for things like tickets, networking, advertising, use of the venue for my own studio needs, etc. I also shoot for larger venues mostly on a one-off basis, anywhere from $50 to $250 a night.
- selling shots post event is an exercise in futility unless you are shooting for a wire service, magazine, etc.
- small bands love pro shots (it makes them look real good), but seldom enough to pay for them
- well establish bands generally don't need the shots, or in many cases don't even want photographers at the shows (Celine Dion + zoom lens + cellulite = bad shot)
- if you're in it to gain access to the shows, to have a good time, and to get the respect and admiration of many, you're golden !!! The rest is gravy.

Hope this perspective helps.

[FootAJ]

canadatv, thanks for the insight!

Due to an erratic schedule, lack of car, and a lack of experience, I don't have much of a chance working for a publication yet, which is why I'm looking for alternative ways to get passes, such as the one mentioned in the thread title. I'd love to do photography professionally part-time, and in my eyes, I already am (I'm paid to shoot once a week at a local nightclub.)

The show tonight, the deal is basically they want some photos to use on their blog. In return, they'll give me a pass to shoot the show and let me keep all rights to my images, including the right to sell them to the band/publications. Seeing as this was the only way I could reasonably get a pass for the show, I agreed and I really don't feel I gave up any of my "artistic integrity", as some people have mentioned to me elsewhere.

The band never got back to me, even though I contacted the band AND the management atleast 3 times, which leads me to believe either they don't check their e-mail or they just aren't all that interested in getting photographed. Obviously it's disappointing, but it seems that for a gig like this, there's absolutely no money in it unless a publication wants shots after the fact. For this particular show, I'm going in to shoot a fun show, have a fun time, and grab some good images, and if I can make some money off it, sure, but for this show...it's all about having a good time :)

[Compact Diss]

Are these Boston or NYC clubs you are working on to be the house photographer?

[FootAJ]

Are these Boston or NYC clubs you are working on to be the house photographer?

NYC clubs. I'm not exactly working on being a house photographer, but basically they said I could get to shoot the show on their behalf. IF it works out and I end up liking the venue/people I deal with, I might try and work out an actual house photographer deal. All I know is that neither of the venues I'm (hopefully) shooting this weekend have an official house photographer.

[DDCSD]

The band never got back to me, even though I contacted the band AND the management atleast 3 times,

I'm finding that it is very important that you contact the right person. The ideal thing is to find the publicist. Next, management. Next the booking agent. If you can get the email address of a real person (not the general info@xxxxx.com), then you have the chance that the person will forward your email to the right person.

I've also had the best luck in keeping the message short and sweet. Just say that you're a photographer, where you're from and that you'd like credentials. If they ask for more, give them what they want. If you think your prior work is strong enough, send them a link to it.

It helps if you've shot some known bands from the pit. As long as your gallery makes it obvious you weren't in the stands or crowd, it will give you some credibility.

Shooting As I Lay Dying helped me get a pass for Mudvayne. I'm shooting Shinedown next week.

Not making any money, but it is fun, and a challenge.:lol:

[narlus]

i think canadatv is spot-on w/ my experiences.

[FootAJ]

I'm finding that it is very important that you contact the right person. The ideal thing is to find the publicist. Next, management. Next the booking agent. If you can get the email address of a real person (not the general info@xxxxx.com), then you have the chance that the person will forward your email to the right person.

I've also had the best luck in keeping the message short and sweet. Just say that you're a photographer, where you're from and that you'd like credentials. If they ask for more, give them what they want. If you think your prior work is strong enough, send them a link to it.

It helps if you've shot some known bands from the pit. As long as your gallery makes it obvious you weren't in the stands or crowd, it will give you some credibility.

Shooting As I Lay Dying helped me get a pass for Mudvayne. I'm shooting Shinedown next week.

Not making any money, but it is fun, and a challenge.:lol:

Totally agree! Sadly, the band I'm shooting doesn't have a publicist, and I've had SOME luck contacting bands on MySpace, assuming the bands run their own MySpace. Right now I don't have many shows under my belt, but I feel like I'm definitely building a nice gallery of images, so we'll see how far I can get :P

It's like a reality show..."How far up the ladder can you move without a publication!?" :lol:

[DDCSD]

Totally agree! Sadly, the band I'm shooting doesn't have a publicist, and I've had SOME luck contacting bands on MySpace, assuming the bands run their own MySpace. Right now I don't have many shows under my belt, but I feel like I'm definitely building a nice gallery of images, so we'll see how far I can get :P

It's like a reality show..."How far up the ladder can you move without a publication!?" :lol:


Here's a hint, look through their friends on Myspace. Their management (or other important people) is often on there, then Google is your friend to find a valid email address. :lol:

[londonblue007]

Don't message myspace accounts. The majority of bands I know do pay attention to messages, but don't take people seriously when it comes through myspace.

email them. email a real person. email the info account (if it is a local band, if they have management, then email them)

The bigger the band, the less likely you are going to get anyone more then a intern reading myspace messages and replying back with a generic "thanks for liking our band yay!", in fact, even local/regional bands have street team people handle myspace, facebook, purevolume, etc.

[FootAJ]

Don't message myspace accounts. The majority of bands I know do pay attention to messages, but don't take people seriously when it comes through myspace.

email them. email a real person. email the info account (if it is a local band, if they have management, then email them)

The bigger the band, the less likely you are going to get anyone more then a intern reading myspace messages and replying back with a generic "thanks for liking our band yay!", in fact, even local/regional bands have street team people handle myspace, facebook, purevolume, etc.


I agree, which is why I said I only try messaging MySpace accounts on bands that I know run their own MySpace. Being in NYC, there's a lot of local bands around that run their own MySpaces and don't even have managers. When shooting a bigger band, obviously I go the manager/publicity agent, but if it's simply a local band, usually MySpace is a really good way of getting in contact with them.

So far, I've had atleast 3 bands that I've talked to over MySpace and all 3 times, the ones checking the MySpace were not only the band members, but the ones who arrange their photo opportunities as well! Again, I'm not talking about larger bands or bands with managers.

[narlus]

i couldn't find f-all for a Pogues contact, and ended up messaging spider stacy via myspace, and it worked out fine. :D