flash over the sun

[zigphoto]

okay, so i'm trying a technique called flash over the sun. I'm trying to expose a large landscape scene where the sun looks like a star with light shooting out like spikes. I hope i'm explaining that correctly. I want the rest of the landscape to be fairly lit up, and i am going to expose the subject with a off camera flash. I un-fortunatly have failed horribly to create this effect. I have a 430ex flash canon 5D and im using a 15mm fisheye at hyperfocal distance of f/8 and have tried f/16. someone help i'm shooting a motocross race outside this weekend and would like to try this out.

Here is a link to a photo that is similar to what i want to do.

http://tedescophoto.com/08/fmx/de111008/images/potter_de111008_0129.jpg

Please, i need some help here

[tenoverthenose]

The more you stop down the lens, the more of a "star" the sun will look like. However I'm not sure the 430 has enough power to pull this off. You'll need to get it off camera and as close as possible to your subject to give yourself a fighting chance.

[Dooms_day]

it also depends on the lens, the elements in the lens will create that diffusive effect of the sun's light

[40Dude6aedyk]

This doesn't look too hard to me, but I haven't tried it.
First, I would forget about the bike rider and work on taking a picture of the landscape and sun alone. The flash is not contributing to that picture at all anyways.

Or simply take a picture of the sun separate from the landscape and combine it with an editing program like photoshop.

Once you have accomplished the flash-less picture to your satisfaction, then you can add in the bike rider. The flash doesn't have to light up anything but the near side of the rider, so that should be pretty easy as well.

[zigphoto]

bump

[JulieNick]

I've been trying to do this to with the sun. I googled and found that what is used is a star filter on your lens.

[GenuineRolla]

yeah but in that shot...all he has is glare from the sun. Nothing like a star effect. You can get the same effect by shooting at f/22. But I doubt that pocket strobe will have enough power to accomplish that.

[Rudi]

Your 430EX has nowhere near enough power to pull that sort of thing off... I suspect the image that you linked to was probably lit by at least a 600Ws strobe, or higher. Your 430EX is about 30Ws...

[msowsun]

Even a 580EX would not have enough power for that. Here are some quick photos from a trial this morning using High Speed Sync(HSS) with the 580EX II. I was only about 3 feet from the fence and there isn't enough power to really light it up.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/IMG_4834.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/IMG_4835.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/IMG_4836.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/IMG_4837.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/IMG_4838.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/IMG_4839.jpg

[zigphoto]

what lens was that? I tried every combination to just get the sun to star not even close, i'll try to post some photos later.

[msowsun]

That was a Sigma 17-70 all at 17mm with no filter.

[Mark1]

Not a real comparison as the fence is only 3 feet away and the MX rider is probably 30 or so feet away. The sample image also has the background close to proper exposure. In your test it is grossly underexposed.

In the test i would take it that there is a strobe or 2 raised up so it can balance with the sun to expose him on the short side from the sun. And is probably at least a 1000ws head.


Also I have never heard of 'flash over the sun". Most commonly it is known as overpowering the sun. The sample picture is not this technique. It is simply ballencing. msowson's test is more of overpowering the sun.

[Marloon]

remember that photography is all about compromise.

there are also things to consider:
- ambient light is mainly controlled by the shutter speed
- flash lighting is controlled by the aperture

and since you are trying to get the sunburst effect, you are going to have to stop down to f11-f16. but when you stop down to that low, you are also lowering the amount of flash. what you are going to need to do is... bring MORE lights with you AND bring the lights close.

let's take a look at an example of what you might be trying to achieve.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Y9ZKFU7m0c8/SXRxGxl4LDI/AAAAAAAAAY0/a7WBdXimbOI/s800/20090117-IMG_3087-2.jpg

if my memory serves me right, this was shot with 2 285HVs shot at full power, 3 feet away from the model. the camera settings was at ISO 100, f11 @ 17mm on my 17-55mm f2.8 IS. shutter speed was 1/200 (as this was the max sync speed of my pt-04tm system - i ordered new cactus v4s. their sync speed is rated to be 1/500 i'm hoping for 1/400)

that day, which was in january, i realized that i will need to buy alienbees to have a standing fight against the sun.

[zigphoto]

quick question. Is it possible to acheive the same effect by making adjustments to a RAW image?

[40Dude6aedyk]

raw or jpg wouldn't matter, I think it would be lots more noticable than combining 2 photos into one. Take a look at the original photo you had us look at. One could put 5 or 6 or a dozen bikes up in the sky pretty easily. Maybe we can get msowsun to put something up in the sky of his first photo besides lettering.

[Photon Phil]

I would say yes, if there was some light bounce on the face in the first place to create depth that could be enhanced. Or it would take a lot of dodge and burn skills.

[wile_e_coyote_n_taz]

The original photo is pretty cool.

How about a large bathroom mirror or a hugh reflector of some type.

Or, expose the photo for the bike using the flashes you have and photoshop in the sun on a different layer.


bill

[form]

I did some flash vs. sun experiments today around 11:15 am, and I found that 1 flash at full power somewhere between 3-5 feet away could approximately match the sun in output, and since I have 4 flashes I could set them each at 1/4 power and get roughly the same power. With 2-3 flashes you can illuminate your subject slightly more than the sun. Of course, with big strobes the power isn't an issue.

[wile_e_coyote_n_taz]

Heres a large cheap mirror....

http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-74488/30x36-Mirror-fdsh-1-fdsh-2%22-Bevel/Detail

http://www.idealtruevalue.com/catalog/getimage_new_74488_1.asp


bill

[sfaust]

...taking a picture of the landscape and sun alone. The flash is not contributing to that picture at all anyways.

Actually, the flash is significant in that picture, otherwise the opposite side of the rider/bike would be in shadow since its not lit from the sun.

Here is a walk through in setting up the exposure between flash and ambient. You can use this to balance the two, overpower the sun, or as a fill flash. The process is the same, the difference in the flash output will determine if its fill, balanced, or overpowered.

http://stephenfaust.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/strobe-and-sunlight-how-to/

Not a real comparison as the fence is only 3 feet away and the MX rider is probably 30 or so feet away. The sample image also has the background close to proper exposure. In your test it is grossly underexposed.

In the test i would take it that there is a strobe or 2 raised up so it can balance with the sun to expose him on the short side from the sun. And is probably at least a 1000ws head.

You can use a small portable camera flash even at 30' away. The subjects area is small enough that for portable flashes with a zoom feature, you can throw all the power quite a distance away and still retain a lot of power. I've done it with my 580EX flashes zoomed all the way out, and I used two aimed at the subject to double the power.

Although, its much easier with a 1600ws strobe, beauty disk or 11" reflector, and a portable battery setup ;) If you need to shoot with the smaller flashes, use the zoom, and if you need more power user multiple flashes.

How about a large bathroom mirror or a hugh reflector of some type.

bill

The best you can do with a reflector is to get a balanced effect. You can't create more power than what you are given, so even with a reflector with 100% efficiency, you'll only get a perfectly balanced effect. Although, with a acrylic mirror, or a parabolic mirror, you can concentrate the suns effect, and thus overpower the sun. You'd need to play with the size of the reflector and distance of the subject to get the right combination.

[40Dude6aedyk]

Actually, the flash is significant in that picture, otherwise the opposite side of the rider/bike would be in shadow since its not lit from the sun.
Which is why the previous sentence restricted the picture to mean the "landscape and sun alone." Sorry for the confusion.

[zigphoto]

would one of these work?

http://www.adorama.com/images/large/FAFX3.JPG

I'm going to get the 580EXII Shooting motocross i need something portable, so i can't haul around big strobes and setups. Anyone have a good link to good action flash tutorials??

[sfaust]

Which is why the previous sentence restricted the picture to mean the "landscape and sun alone." Sorry for the confusion.

Gotcha, i just misread it.

would one of these work?
I'm going to get the 580EXII Shooting motocross i need something portable, so i can't haul around big strobes and setups. Anyone have a good link to good action flash tutorials??

It could, but the only way to tell would be to try it. It will really depend on the distance to the biker, and the power of the portable flash, and the efficiency of the Fresnel lens. In order for the 580EX to work, you really need to concentrate all the power from the flash in a small area, and then work within the distance limitations.

The other issue, if you concentrate all the power from the flash to a smaller area, your rider will need to be in that area for it to work. It will be very confining since you will have to pre-aim the flash on where you think the rider will be, and thats the only area you will have enough power. If the rider gives you a great opportunity for the shot before he enters the 'zone', or right after, you'll miss those. If you have someone with you, they can aim the flash at the rider and track them, thus getting around the issue.

But yes, it would most likely work, but will be limiting and harder to get good results than using a powerful strobe where you can light a larger area for the rider to be in. Using the zoom technique works best for more stationary objects.

[TheObiJuan]

I've done it with a couple of ND filters to tone down the sun and then shot at f/16. I used a 420EX which had plenty of power to create the image you want.

Adam Barker over at FM did this with a 3 stop reverse ND filter:
http://adambarkerphotography.smugmug.com/photos/489968106_YaToT-X2.jpg

Doesn't look like flash was even used; no reflections on the goggles.

[zigphoto]

bump

[zigphoto]

finally did it. Not the greatest photo with the trashcans and all, but after some PS work, seemed to come out okay? the ISO was a little too high.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3588/3422856772_39525cee3e_o.jpg

Exif is canon 5D, 15mm fisheye, 1/5000 @ f/16, ISO 800, no flash, Evaluative metering.

[GenuineRolla]

The OP could just also get a star filter and not worry about the f/stop as much...

[sfaust]

Congrats! Now its just a matter of playing with variations and power levels to find your style with it. But you obviously have the technique of balancing the two down in this image. Have fun while playing with, as it just unlocked a bunch of new creative doors.

The OP could just also get a star filter and not worry about the f/stop as much...

You need the higher f-stops to control the sunlight anyway, star filter or not. So might as well get the real thing, rather than a more manufactured star look.