Offered my First paid Job...Question about how logical this is.

[Parmcat]

OK. I am not too sure how this happened to me. I am a hobbiest photographer that has sold a few images at local shows and been published (in the POTN Vol2) as well as have had a small gallery showing.

I have been contacted by a local organization called Communities in Bloom. Basically it is a gardening showcase club that has an international membership. This year, my hometown is making some bid to be a host of some international contest. They need an offcial photographer.

I was asked if I would like the job. When it was presented to me in the fall, I had to say now because of the requirements, as well as the pay. Well, there was no pay....BUT, they wanted me to shoot 100 backyards...ONE HUNDRED. They need 6-10 pics of each backyard to be shown to the judges...possibly via a slideshow. I would have 8 weeks to shoot all of the yards, process the pics and have them ready to present.

This week I was contacted again, and they now have a budget, and are able to pay for a photographer.

I need to come up with a number for the job. I guess I have to account for gas, travel time, shooting time, and post processing time of almost 1000 finished images from a pool of around 6000 (I would guess)

My first fear is the job is too big for one person, or at least this person....would anyone else feel this way?

You never want to give your pics away for free, I dont want to price myself out of the ball park.

Here are my questions I guess:

1: is it too big of a job for one person (that works full time, has a small home based business on the side, and a family...LOL)

2: Price? I am not even sure how to go about pricing yourself for something like this...I was going to go by the yard...something like 20-25.00 per yard. (somewhere around 2500.00)

There are all sorts of other questions that will come up after I decide if I should take on this huge task. I do have a buddy that would be more then willing to help me if I ask, but the sound of Parmcat, official photographer of blah blah sounds pretty cool.

I hope to keep this thread going for any further questions I may have....

Thanks a BUNCH in advance!

Parm

[kenwood33]

When you say 100 backyards I assume those backyards are all over ontario? So traveling will take up a big chunk of your time? I think that's too much for a single person to do, esp when you are just part time.

[Parmcat]

When you say 100 backyards I assume those backyards are all over ontario? So traveling will take up a big chunk of your time? I think that's too much for a single person to do, esp when you are just part time.


Hi there,

Thanks for responding.

No, all the backyards will be here in my hometown (or just outside the city limits)

Parm

[egordon99]

Maybe find out how long it would take to do ONE backyard (yours perhaps? ;) ) and then multiply by 100, and add in travel time. I figured I could walk into my backyard, shoot for ~30 minutes, and then I always estimate 1 hour of PP for 1 hour of shooting, so one backyard would be ~1 hour WITHOUT taking into account any travel. So you're looking at 100 hours of "photo time". I charge ~$100/hour, so (again ignoring ANY travel), this would be a $10,000 job AT A MINIMUM!

As for the time constraints, do you have a day job? I do, so I'd have to do them on the weekends, figure 12 hours each weekend, that's only 96 hours so I'd barely be able to do it. It's a TALL ORDER, but honestly for $12K (I'll be nice and add in $2K for "travel") guaranteed photo/hobby income over two months, I might do it...

[mattograph]

When I shoot real estate, I charge $100 in metro area for one full-processed print ready front elevation, and either 6 full processed interiors, or twenty web ready interiors. At that price, I have as much business as I need. I don't offer any volume discounts, cause with gas and what not, that IS the volume discount.

Anyway, I would charge the same for what they are looking for. Nothing less than 5 grand.

[dreamcatcher23]

This is a big job, for sure. Personally I'd pick a day rate and estimate how many yards you'll do in that day. PP time is included as part of the day rate, even if it takes longer than the day. Pricing yourself out is a risk, so be careful with that. Work out your minimum, don't underestimate travel costs/time (possibly bill travel separately) and then bid above your minimum so they've room to bid you down a little. I think for this much work a discount might be in order, so you should be looking at a final figure of around $500-$700 per day shooting + gas & don't charge for the PP days (the "day rate" is high because it includes compenstaion for the PP). For 100 yards, weather permitting, it's probably around 8-12 days shooting.

Also, I'd strongly suggest making sure they give you a person to coordinate and to make sure people are available at the times you need to shoot, backyards are accessible and ready etc. As this is where the biggest potential for ****ups / wasted time is.

[egordon99]

Just to add, my comments were strictly from the POV of a hobbiest with a day job....

[S.Horton]

I think for something like this you need to boil it down to the 3, 4 things you'll have to do well to make it successful, then you'll have an idea of how much time it will take. From there, you can basically price your time and quote it.

For example:
1. Shooting in good light; weather downtime allowance; appointment setup/cancel/re-shoot allowance
2. Cataloging entrant information with each shoot
3. Edit / process / archive / submit
4. Track % complete
5. Invoice and get paid; paid extra for work outside of contract

EDIT: I'm in consulting, not photography, but I hope that helps nonetheless; it is what I do when confronted with an unknown.

[dreamcatcher23]

S.Horton gives good advice. FYI I'm pro but not in real-estate. Mattograph lists that he is, so he's probably a good person to take advice from. Whatever you do, don't underestimate the admin or complexity of this job (as noted by S. Horton) and don't get taken for a ride with payment and lowball offers.

[sspellman]

Parm-

My advice for you is to bill this job by the actual hour of time invested including PP and travel. This is very important when there are many factors here that you have no control over-an inexperienced client, weather, garden access, etc. I would provide them an estimate of time required, but bill actual on a weekly basis. Hourly billing will also force the client to make better choices about exactly what they need or are willing to pay for, and I'm sure that in the end you will not shoot 100 gardens. A reasonable hourly rate for a beginner is probably in the $30-60 range.

With limited time to get garden shots durring daylight, this might be too big for you. Its important to carefully review everything with your client, make a contract, and develop an efficient workflow.

Good Luck,
Scott

[DDCSD]

With limited time to get garden shots durring daylight, this might be too big for you. Its important to carefully review everything with your client, make a contract, and develop an efficient workflow.



This is a big part of the equation. You have to remember that any yard will look best at a certain time of day. Are they looking for absolute professional shots or will snapshot-ish shots be fine? To get high quality professional shots, you may only get one yard done a day. Since you have no idea what you're working with (what side of the house the backyard is in, shadows, etc...) You may get somewhere and find out that there is no way you can get great shots at that time of day, or that day.

Depending on what your deadline is, this may be way more than one person can handle.

[Parmcat]

Wow...

I am overwhelmed by the great quality of responses. As stated above, I have never ever ever tackled any even CLOSE to this magnitude.

I am thinking that I may use a partner.

I know tht the PP and workflow will be key here. I hope there will be next to zero reshoots also.

I have until Sat to decide. I am taking the question to my camera club to see what others say....

Thanks again for the great insightful answers!

Parm

[S.Horton]

BTW, congrats on being asked, because that means they think you can do it.

If you think that you can cover the bases, definitely go for it.

[Parmcat]

BTW, congrats on being asked, because that means they think you can do it.

If you think that you can cover the bases, definitely go for it.


Thanks for the kind words.

I guess I have the fear of the unknown. I am thinking it could open a lot of doors...possibly....

If the job gets done...then it could be a great opportunity.

If I fail, or the pics are less then steller, they those doors close for a long time.

I know first impressions go a long way.

She is making it hard to say no though....

[S.Horton]

I forget who said it, but "Courage is being scared as h*ll and doing it anyway"

Go get 'em.

[DDCSD]

As long as what they are asking is possible, I'm sure you'll do great! Never be afraid to fail!

[Rubi Jane]

Parm, if you haven't checked out the Communities in Bloom (http://www.communitiesinbloom.ca/) website it's worth a visit. This event/contest has a huge impact within the participating communities. I've driven through so many Canadian communities during summer months and seen signs up all the place highlighting the contest, garden tours and more. Very high pride of home ownership goes along with the gardens participating.

This is a large job and comes with complexities that have been noted previously. What I'll say is go for it! Get a partner or two to share the work, plan it out, have a back-up plan, make sure you have a schedule and know if you are ahead, on track or getting behind and have ways to manage if you start to fall behind.

There's a great opportunity to gain awareness, notoriety and hopefully more business, if you want it. Develop and print some marketing materials that you can leave behind for the homeowners whose gardens you shoot. They may have interest in buying prints of the garden shots, or might have need for a family portrait, you never know.

Also, make sure you define who owns copyright if you get the job. In Canada, when hired for a job the photographer does not automatically get copyright unless it it agreed to in a contract. Look over the Canadian Copyright Act (http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33323) and pay attention to Ownership of Copyright (Section 13).

You could come away with some great saleable shots that could have potential for generating other revenue such as local London postcards, stock sites, greeting cards, calendars etc. Insuring you have copyright, or at least commercial rights would be vital. Also, depending on the type of shots if a recognizable location (front of a participating house) you'd need a property release. If the organizing committee can include such a release when homeowners sign up to participate it would be ideal.

I was a marketer for 15 years so I look at the opportunity of every job and see what might be possible to extract ;-)

Good luck!

[Ghostfly]

Good Luck - that sounds like a nice job!

[alduin]

One other thing to consider is that you may have to schedule your shoots ahead of time with the homeowners. That will add quite a bit of administrative juggling and planning to the equation, so be sure to account for it ahead of time.

[alduin]

Although, now that I think of it, you could probably go with the cable/phone company method of scheduling.

"Yes, Mrs. Jones? I'll be out to photograph your house and yard on Saturday between the hours of 9:00am and July."

[Parmcat]

Parm, if you haven't checked out the Communities in Bloom (http://www.communitiesinbloom.ca/) website it's worth a visit. This event/contest has a huge impact within the participating communities. I've driven through so many Canadian communities during summer months and seen signs up all the place highlighting the contest, garden tours and more. Very high pride of home ownership goes along with the gardens participating.

This is a large job and comes with complexities that have been noted previously. What I'll say is go for it! Get a partner or two to share the work, plan it out, have a back-up plan, make sure you have a schedule and know if you are ahead, on track or getting behind and have ways to manage if you start to fall behind.

There's a great opportunity to gain awareness, notoriety and hopefully more business, if you want it. Develop and print some marketing materials that you can leave behind for the homeowners whose gardens you shoot. They may have interest in buying prints of the garden shots, or might have need for a family portrait, you never know.

Also, make sure you define who owns copyright if you get the job. In Canada, when hired for a job the photographer does not automatically get copyright unless it it agreed to in a contract. Look over the Canadian Copyright Act (http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33323) and pay attention to Ownership of Copyright (Section 13).

You could come away with some great saleable shots that could have potential for generating other revenue such as local London postcards, stock sites, greeting cards, calendars etc. Insuring you have copyright, or at least commercial rights would be vital. Also, depending on the type of shots if a recognizable location (front of a participating house) you'd need a property release. If the organizing committee can include such a release when homeowners sign up to participate it would be ideal.

I was a marketer for 15 years so I look at the opportunity of every job and see what might be possible to extract ;-)

Good luck!


Thank you so much for the response. As I said, this is the firsr job of this magnitude, and there are so many angles I am not prepared for. I knew I could rely on the people here to point out the not so obvious points.

I am leaning towards having a partner to help me out, to prevent myself from getting behind, and thn having th scramble, and have the work suffer.

All the best!

Sean

[Parmcat]

Although, now that I think of it, you could probably go with the cable/phone company method of scheduling.

"Yes, Mrs. Jones? I'll be out to photograph your house and yard on Saturday between the hours of 9:00am and July."


LOL

Awesome!

[Parmcat]

Update,

Went to my camera club meeting tonight, and talked about this project with a few shooters that I trust.

All stated that they would take the job, but didnt understate how big a job this is.

They botyh said that there were more the a few members that would come out to help if I fell behind, and need some help catching up....

This is a huge safety net for me.

I am going to formulate my bid/offer and see where we stand.

It may be a busy summer!

Thanks for the all the responses....I will keep this thread updated!

[S.Horton]

Excellent. Post pics!

[Rubi Jane]

That's great, go get 'em!!

[nuffi]

When you make your bid, explain the breakdown in time it will take oyu to complete teh job. If they fiurst thought they could get someone to do it for free, then they probably still think it isn't worth much. Most likely that has to do with them not realizing how much time and effort it will actually take to acheive the goals they're setting.

[Parmcat]

When you make your bid, explain the breakdown in time it will take oyu to complete teh job. If they fiurst thought they could get someone to do it for free, then they probably still think it isn't worth much. Most likely that has to do with them not realizing how much time and effort it will actually take to acheive the goals they're setting.


I have given this a lot of thought, and have come up with a breakdown like this:

100 yards x 1.5 hrs (one hr per house to shoot and 30 min per house for PP) x the rate I have come up with= 150 hrs work

I have bumped it up a bit to allow for sone negotiations.

Bid will be submitted this evening.

[Rubi Jane]

when you say 1 hr to shoot it seems a little high for only 6 or so shots. I assume it includes travel time and time spent making appointments with the homeowners, if this is the case be sure to comment on it so they can fully understand the time investment you'd have to make.

I do like the idea of booking a slot of time for house appointments, maybe a 3 hr window.
Good luck.

[Uhland]

The price you quote them. With that include giving them the copyright (work for hire) or providing them with an license?
If license what type? Exclusive?

[Parmcat]

Well,

It is not looking good. I took a lot of time to ask people how to address this, and put together a 2 page proposal laying out all the terms that I thought were important.

Everything was gold...except for the price...LOL

My proposal was 100 yards to be shot, and provide 9 Processed images.

I quoted 1 hr shooting/preparing time and 30 minutes PP time per house.

My rate was to be 45.00/hr, which, from what I am told, is underpriced.

The total was 6750.00 for the whole thing.

Basically, they said it was way way more then thier budget would be able to pay, but they are taking to proposal to the council meeting on Tuesday. She kind of alluded to a 2000.00 budget....

We will see what they come back with, but this looking like it may not be the job I was hoping for.

At 13.00/yard...it will be hard for them to find someone to take it on....

[egordon99]

:(

They'll get someone with a P&S who wants to "break into the biz...." to do it for $500.

Sorry.....

[The Moose]

Unlucky mate. $2,000 is a bit low for what they want. They'll end up with someone that will do it for the $2,000 to max out their budget and the quality of the final product won't be as good as they hoped.

[S.Horton]

Welcome to business.

Ok, so their budget is $2K -- Negotiate down the number of yards, or negotiate away the shooting responsibility.

By way of example, you agree to go shoot/process the top 10 submitted by homeowners with their P&S, process the P&S shots as well.

...just a thought.

[Parmcat]

******UPDATE*****

Well...no good news here. I submitted my offer, and they presetted it to the commitee, and I guess they gave it a very fast and flat NO!!!!

They have decided to ask for 10-20 volunteers to shoot 5-10 gardens, and submit the unsized, unedit images so thy can do to them what they want. They want full title to the pics, and want them for free.

C'est le vie

The part that chaps my ass about it, is not that they said no, but still want me to shoot 10 yards for free...

Ah well....

I did pick up a gig to shoot a friends asthetic home studio for her website and brochures.

100 gardens....for free....BAH

[DDCSD]

:(

They'll wish they had hired you by the time they get 10,000 unedited photos rolling in. Especially since a large number of them will probably be unusable.

[Chris]

Better to walk away from a bad job. Maybe you could show them what they could have gotten by shooting a couple of the nicest backyards just for fun and giving them the edited images. Then they can see what they are missing.

[egordon99]

Well I was wrong, but it's worse than I imagined! They're getting folks with P&Ss to do it for free :confused:

:(

They'll get someone with a P&S who wants to "break into the biz...." to do it for $500.

Sorry.....

[S.Horton]

It sounds like the person who originally contacted you was never in control of a budget.

I picked up a great tip the other day (I'm in consulting) -- If you want to know if they have a budget, ask them what their deadline is. If they don't know the answer to that, then either there is no budget, or you're talking to the wrong person.

[blackshadow]

Better to walk away from a bad job. Maybe you could show them what they could have gotten by shooting a couple of the nicest backyards just for fun and giving them the edited images. Then they can see what they are missing.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Tough break Parmcat but it's their loss not yours. Hold your head up knowing that you made a sound business decision - other opportunities will arise I'm sure.

BTW I'd make sure you spread the word to those supportive of you in your local camera club and let them know what happened and to discourage them from putting their hands up to be part of the pool of amateurs.

[griptape]

Well the good news is, you are doing the right thing for yourself. You can't let the competition set your prices (especially when the competition is a soccer mom that happens to own a P&S camera that won't charge for it).

[sfaust]

You will always have situations where you will walk away, and anyone in business needs to understand that and adjust accordingly.

Its no different than if you were in business to offer high end custom paint jobs on cars. You will always get the phone calls for someone looking for the $199 special Earl Scheib paint jobs. You aren't in the business of offering budget paint jobs, but are setup for custom work. If you try to match the price, it will kill you unless you align the rest of your business for that goal as well (overhead, marketing, materials used, techniques, etc). Yea, you most likely have the skills and equipment to do a $199 paint job, but you aren't setup for that business.

Once you realize that the caller isn't your client, its easy to walk away. I just recommended them to an appropriate photographer in their budget class, and hope as they grow more aware of quality and have an increased budget, they will remember the good gesture and give me call for the type of work I am setup for.

The flip side happens as well. Where a client calls and has a great budget, but are asking for something you don't have much experience in. It's hard not to look at that as the big break you were looking for, and going for it. But the danger is that if you take it and fail, you have just started a negative reputation in the very market you want to eventually be in. Thats also counterproductive and hurts in the long run. Much better to pass until your skills are on par with the work, and keep in touch with the client for future work. I've turned down projects with $30K budgets because I didn't feel I was ready at the time, and it was a very smart decision. Hard as hell, but I'm glad i did.

Walking away is just part of the business. It's not hard once you put some logic around the reasons why its actually better in the long run. So no, never feel bad about walking away if its the right things to do.

You can't limit incoming calls to only the right clients, so you will always get fluff that needs to be dispatched quickly ;)

[Rubi Jane]

Too bad it all fell apart, but better to know sooner than later.
If it were me I'd consider shooting a couple of the nicer yards (you'll be signs up or a list of participating homes during the garden tour) and use them for portfolio work or even make up postcards if you can find points of distribution.

Approach the home owner and offer prints in return for shooting with a property release. I'm sure there's going to be some beautiful gardens to shoot, just make it a personal project if you're interested. Lay a 'large' watermark on a few and wave them under the noses of the organizers ;)

[mritchy]

I read this post back when it was posted and thought it sounded like a great gig to bring in a little extra cash. I am a student in Dallas that works in Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio almost every weekend doing photography work and I would never do that job for $2,000. That's saying something- I am a broke college kid. Don't worry about it, it looks like they have wasted enough of your time already.

[jmorales]

Too bad it did not work out. I was looking forward to a success story and some pics from the shoot. You know they have a budget of $2K. Why not offer to shoot 10-20 yards and hand them professional shots. When they compare them to the FREE shots they will get from everyone's P&S, they may consider hiring you if they are serious about winning the competition. Somewhere in the conversation with them I would mention that you are interested in trying to salvage their competition entry by supplying pro photos. If they still say no I would not even consider doing the 10 free yards they requested.

Good Luck!