What The!

[Movick]

Hello All,



Some of you may remember me as the film to digital convert who was initially disenchanted with the inherent DSLR sensor dust issue. I took heed of the friendly advice offered by many here in a recent string, and really tried to make peace with this frustrating problem. I researched various sensor cleaning techniques, and prepared myself to deal with this delicate yet requisite chore. Many schools of thought exist on this troubling DSLR weakness; some say DO NOT attempt to clean the sensor with direct contact methods, others suggest dry cleaning methods, while others suggest wet procedures. I’ve had quantitative dust particles rear their less than pretty heads on my sensor from day one (out of the box) and my first approach was to attempt cleaning via the Canon suggested method (air bulb) – to no avail. I saw little or no difference in the dust quantity. Disappointed but not daunted; I took the $135.00 plunge and ordered the highly regarded “Sensor Brush.” I received the 2 brush kit a couple of days ago, and supplemented it by ordering a can of Stoner brand “Gust.” This product contains 100% pure tetrafluoroethane, which purportedly expels little or no residue or propellant when used correctly. Last night, I dialed in the sensor cleaning setting on my 1ds Mark 2’s menu, depressed the shutter, said a quick prayer, took a deep breath and removed the body cap. I followed the Sensor Brush manufacturer’s instructions and took the plunge. To say I’m disappointed is a very polite understatement at best! Take a look at the mess of a sensor I now possess after carefully following the recommended Sensor Brush cleaning procedure. For the cleanliness test I selected a sky blue background and set it to full screen viewing on my LCD monitor, and photographed it at f22 - and yes I cleaned it first! The first pic is how my sensor appeared right after the bulb blowing. The second shot is after the Sensor Brush. What the hell happened? Notice the streaks in the close-up panel. I called the dealer, and arranged for a new body. A little dust I can deal with; this however is unacceptable for a new camera. Does anyone know what caused this mess? I’d like to know for future reference.



Thanks,



Movick

[Movick]

The close-up panel.

[Movick]

BTW, I inverted the images to represent the actual sensor orientation.

[HKFEVER]

Why not use COPPERHILLS product, it works on my 1DsMKII, 1DMKII, 300D, 350D. In fact, I cleaned the sold 1DMKII last night (which sat in the dry box for at least 2 month).

[Bsmooth]

What the heck are copperHills products?

[HKFEVER]

Check this out:

http://www.pbase.com/copperhill/image/20980695

[robertwgross]

First of all, tetrafluoroethane is a rather serious solvent that is used mostly in refrigeration systems. I'm not at all certain that I would want to be using that inside my camera unless I had a terribly evil contamination. Further, you don't want to breathe that stuff.

Advice has been offered in this forum, over and over again. Most of it comes from the many folks who have been down this road before.

1. You might have a simple dust problem on the sensor. Air-blow the dust. That will get a lot of it. A simple light brush might get it.
2. If the problem is more severe, then use any simple liquid on a simple swab. For example, I use ordinary lens cleaner on an ordinary cotton swab, and I inspect afterward that no cotton fibers were left behind.
3. If the problem is really bad, then consider pulling out the serious solvents like tetrafluoroethane. They are much more expensive.

(I've been cleaning my own camera's sensor for 2.5 years now, and I have never had to go past step 2.)

---Bob Gross---

[steven]

I have used the Copper Hill method and it does work. A bit scarry at first but you just have to get over it.

The brush I would think you are just push dust around the sensor as well as leaving any dust the brush might already have on it.
As for caned air of any form or composition, I would be concerned of the force involved with the air flow. Also you are counting on the dust floating off the sensor and out of the camera are apposed to back onto the sensor in a new location.
The Cooper Hill method uses pic pads (with some solution on it) to grab the dust. Then you throw it away and use a new one next time. Makes sense to me.

[Movick]

Perhaps I didn't state the procedure clearly. The compressed tetrafluoroethane was not sprayed into the camera; it was used to charge the bristles on the sensor brush. This product was not used in a liquid state; it is merely the propellant in the compressed air can. Tetrafluoroethane is recommended by the manufacturer of the Sensor Brush for applying a static charge to the bristles. Purportedly, this substance leaves no residue behind after blowing. As I've mentioned before, my first several attempts to remove the offending dust were made by using a Hurricane blower to no avail. The first picture above indicates the result of said procedure. The Sensor Brush is specifically designed to attract and grab loose dust particles, not simply rearrange them as a normal brush would.

As far as wet methods go; I'm cool with that when the time comes. I strongly feel for now; I shouldn't have to undertake this somewhat risky task at this extremely early point of ownership of this 8 kilo-dollar SLR! Send me a new body I say!!

I'd still like to know what the streaking resulted from. Any ideas?

http://www.visibledust.com
http://www.criticalcleaning.com/94201.html

Movick

[KennyG]

Movick, you have to come down to reality. It does not matter if your DSLR was $800 or $8,000 you will have dust at some point, usually straight from the factory. Either come to terms with it or forget all about using DSLR's, it is how it is.

The streaks are probably caused by contiminants on the brush, so in real terms you made the situation worse. If you get them to accept a change of body because of streaks you created, you are more than lucky. Your new body, should you get one, will have dust as well and you may as well accept that now.

[bgmoore]

The copperhill method works great. That brush thing never impressed me very much. The streaking looks like whatever was on the brush just smeared things. One thing I learned through practice whether using a pec pad on spatula or a commerial sensor cleaning swab is that you can use more pressure than you thought you could. It's not that fragile. I would barely touch the sensor the first time I tried it. Here's a better link to the copperhill method. http://www.pbase.com/copperhill/ccd_cleaning .

[Movick]

Response to Kenny G.,



So far, your replies to my queries have been more of a hindrance than a help. Your “deal with it or hit the bricks” tone just sucks. I’m not adverse to constructive criticism, but your retort style of communication leaves a lot to be desired.



<<Movick, you have to come down to reality. It does not matter if your DSLR was $800 or $8,000 you will have dust at some point, usually straight from the factory. Either come to terms with it or forget all about using DSLR's, it is how it is.>>



Did I not already profess that I accepted said problem, and further prepared to take steps with which to deal with this? “I took heed of the friendly advice offered by many here in a recent string, and really tried to make peace with this frustrating problem. I researched various sensor cleaning techniques, and prepared myself to deal with this delicate yet requisite chore.”

Lambasting me as if I childishly refused to accept the dust concern is incorrect naive and rude. And quite frankly sir; I don’t need your permission or approval to use or not use a DSLR; thanks just the same.



<<The streaks are probably caused by contiminants on the brush, so in real terms you made the situation worse.>>



Not true. I tested the brush by repeatedly stroking it on a clear UV protector filter; not a streak in sight. Obviously the smearing was caused by foreign matter residing on the sensor; most likely oil from the shutter mechanism or perhaps from the manufacturing process. In “real terms” I made nothing worse whatsoever. It is quite presumptuous of you to accuse me of worsening an already bad “situation”, especially when you are blindly speculating. I again contend that a new 8k DSLR should be devoid of such a defect, and requesting a new body is well within my right; in fact, I’d be a fool to accept this body as is! By the way “contiminants” is properly spelled contaminants.



<<If you get them to accept a change of body because of streaks you created, you are more than lucky.>>



Again your baseless accusations are unwarranted and unequivocally hypocritical. If I am to “come to terms” with the dust problem; am I not to employ proven methods of cleaning to address it? I guess it’s my lucky day; the dealer is cheerfully replacing the camera body. They agree with my position; a leopard should have spots not a new 8k DSLR!



<<Your new body, should you get one, will have dust as well and you may as well accept that now.>>



Why should I accept this? Because you said I should?



Kenny, I really think you should exude a more sociable attitude toward fellow posters in this forum. I stumbled across this group and sought advice from others with similar equipment, experience and interests without the need or expectations of nasty “I know it all” attitude. You may be a pleasant fellow in person; thus far however, you’ve left me with a less than pleasant impression by your crass replies to my posts.



Movick

[Vega$50]

So...what kind of answer would you like then? I think you are being a little too sensitive about this. The folks in this post and the other post you put up, provided you with several methods on how to clean your sensor, to include sending it in to have it professionally cleaned.
These methods have worked for numerous others, and if you look through the other sensor cleaning posts, you will find that folks had to try 2 and 3 times to get acceptable results sometimes. So it is not known why the method does not work for you.
I find your reply to Kenny waaay more terse than how he replied to you. You will not find anyone on this forum that wouldn't give you a straight answer if they can, and it sounds like everyone in this post has. This doesn't go for this forum only, but you would find the same answers from other well known DSLR forums.

This isn't intended to flame you or make you angry, but you should re-read your posting for "tone".

Just trying to help....good luck with your camera

[Andy_T]

What Vega$50 just said.

Lighten up and have fun with your camera:D

Best regards,
Andy

[rdenney]

1. You might have a simple dust problem on the sensor. Air-blow the dust. That will get a lot of it. A simple light brush might get it.
2. If the problem is more severe, then use any simple liquid on a simple swab. For example, I use ordinary lens cleaner on an ordinary cotton swab, and I inspect afterward that no cotton fibers were left behind.
3. If the problem is really bad, then consider pulling out the serious solvents like tetrafluoroethane. They are much more expensive.

(I've been cleaning my own camera's sensor for 2.5 years now, and I have never had to go past step 2.)

Preach it, Bob!

I've been using Residual Oil Remover and a cotton swab on my 10D. It gets what the blower doesn't. If I use a brush, I use a brush the same way I would for a lens--I keep that brush sealed in a plastic bag, and I never, ever touch the bristles. Even so, I have to replace it frequently. Brushes used in the field get gooey all too quickly. I'd rather use the moistened cotton swab.

And I don't bother with the "Sensor Clean" setting, either. My 10D won't do it if I'm not plugged into AC or using a really fresh battery. Who needs that hassle? I just put the dial on M, the shutter speed on B, and make damn sure I don't take my finger off the button while the cotton swab is in there. I also blow it out after cleaning, which flushes out any stray fibers.

T'aint nothin'. Easy compared to keeping dust off negatives in a darkroom. Dust has always been with us. At least now, when we get the dust spots removed from the frame, we are done forever.

Rick "who has no shortage of experience spotting prints" Denney

[robertwgross]

Preach it, Bob!
...
T'aint nothin'.

Rick, I am a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principle.

I do mine the exact same way.

---Bob Gross---

[HKFEVER]

Light up Movick.:lol:

1DSMKII cost a lot of blood and sweat.

You should see my all my sensor cleaning thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47067
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54056
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53943
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58551

I understand what you feel.:cry:

So far Copperhills does the best in cleaning sensor, quite a lot Canon CPS I know use it.

And everybody here is trying to help.

[Movick]

Vega$50,





<<So...what kind of answer would you like then? >>





A polite, non-critical, non-inflammatory answer would be nice…truly nice.







<<I think you are being a little too sensitive about this. >>







I disagree. There is absolutely no need to reply to my post with an incendiary tone, especially when I politely and respectfully requested some info. I appreciate straight shooters as much as the next guy, but G’s brand of reply contained much more disparagement than substance. Please bear in mind that I am brand spankin new to DSLR cameras. As I’ve previously stated; I’ve made my peace with the DSLR sensor dust gods, researched corrective solutions, and (I believed at the time) proactively prepared for and dealt with the problem. After I gingerly performed said action; I was veritably horrified when I reviewed the results. I had taken it upon myself (based upon the advice of individuals in forums such as this) to utilize direct contact corrective measures, in clear defiance of my camera’s warranty; I was greatly concerned. During the few hours following the Sensor Brush cleaning; I thought I had damaged the sensor. I began to think that Canon’s ominous warning about touching the sensor surface (well glass filter)was correct, and the self cleaning techniques touted in these and other forums may well be reckless. Imagine the feeling of believing that you’d just trashed a brand new 8K DSLR!! I had hoped to garner some insight (to reduce my heart rate by a few hundred bpms) as to what had gone amiss. I certainly was not looking for coddling; I was however in search of some concise, non speculative wisdom to help me learn from my mistake (if in fact I’d made one). And rest assured; I was definitely NOT seeking an “I told you so, or “If you can’t take the heat…” response. An informed, lucid answer would have done the trick. Perhaps I simply expected too much from certain individuals in this forum.







<<The folks in this post and the other post you put up, provided you with several methods on how to clean your sensor, to include sending it in to have it professionally cleaned.

These methods have worked for numerous others, and if you look through the other sensor cleaning posts, you will find that folks had to try 2 and 3 times to get acceptable results sometimes. So it is not known why the method does not work for you.>>







Again, my point is that I wanted to know why this has happened. I have no issues with the suggestions of the others in the group, and I’ve made no reference to such. I do however take issue with the fact that I should at this point have to even think about applying a wet cleaning method, in clear defiance of the camera’s warranty to a brand new DSLR. I called Canon’s tech support and asked about these methods; suffice it to say they made it quite apparent that such practice is highly unadvisable and will void the warranty “you’re on your own if you proceed.” Why should I accept these non-warranty compliant cleaning methods as common practice in this instance? Why should anyone? If I screw up my sensor will anyone here offer me anything other than their condolences? Should I rejoice in the idea of sending off a brand new camera to Canon, hoping the UPS boys don't play Hackeysack with my package? I've seen the beginning of Ace Ventura Pet Detective!







<<I find your reply to Kenny waaay more terse than how he replied to you. You will not find anyone on this forum that wouldn't give you a straight answer if they can, and it sounds like everyone in this post has. This doesn't go for this forum only, but you would find the same answers from other well known DSLR forums.>>







My response was on par with G’s. I’d not meant to insult, nor to criticize; I simply voiced what I felt after reading G’s post. I didn’t initiate this; I merely rebutted and expressed myself.



<<This isn't intended to flame you or make you angry, but you should re-read your posting for "tone".>>







I’m not angry at all. I do feel however, that mutual respect should be exercised whether face to face or on an Internet forum. I've re-read my post, and other than perhaps a few word exchanges here or there; I feel the same now as I did when composing it.



Movick

[Movick]

Now there's a refreshing line; "I understand what you feel."... ahhh sweet empathy! Thanks for that HKFEVER! And sincere thanks to all those who politely offered me insight on this very troubling issue. Try to understand our pains man! This is nerve racking stuff! Eight G's plus all the "L" glass amounts to less than life-changing coinage, but nonetheless is a lotta dough!



For now, I patiently await the new body, and I hope my luck doesn't mimic that of HKFEVER!! Mean time; maybe I'll pick up a couple of swabs and some "Sensor Clean" to see if I can de-smear the low pass glass on this soon to be returned body, without fricking it up!!


Movick

[Cadwell]

For the record I have needed to clean both of my dSLRs straight out of the box. It's something that you need to come to terms with as part of dSLR ownership. I find the Copperhill method works best for me.

[Movick]

For what it's worth; my new body arrived tonite in perfect condition. I did the blue screen test, and its virtually free of dust spots! There are about three small spots, but what a huuuge difference from the original body. I'm not going to get too anal about the three spots right now; I think I'll enjoy the camera and explore some of its virtues for a while then revisit the sensor cleaning issue later on!


Thanks to all who offered their assistance. And may I suggest; anyone who spends the kind of cash these high-end DSLRs cost is entitled to a satisfactory experience - exercise your consumer rights!!

Best,

Movick

[Longwatcher]

It sounds as if things have improved dramatically for you,

Mine came with three dust spots, two of which seem to have disappeared without me cleaning the sensor (I suspect the rough handling I tend to give my equipment). I am sure the dust is still in the camera somewhere, just not on the sensor.
So far my D60 still no observed dust, but then it is on loan to my girlfriend and I haven't played with it in 4 months.
My 10D had to be cleaned three times (or about once per 6 months)
and I can live with the one dust spot currently on my 1DsMkII, especially given it is up in a corner that I tend to crop out anyway.

I work with folks who do million dollar sensors and you should see what they go through to avoid dust. And they presume there will be dust on the lenses and focal plan array (AKA sensor) until they seal it up in a vacumn. It would be nice if the DSLRs came out clean, but I can just picture what the cost would be if they had to ensure every sensor came out dust free until the consumer gets it. And who is to say that we don't put the first few dust spots on the first time we put a lens on it. Then again it sounds like your first camera was unacceptably dusty and definately not handled correctly at the factory.

Glad it has come down to an acceptable level of dust on the new one. Have fun, take pictures.

[HKFEVER]

Now there's a refreshing line; "I understand what you feel."... ahhh sweet empathy! Thanks for that HKFEVER! And sincere thanks to all those who politely offered me insight on this very troubling issue. Try to understand our pains man! This is nerve racking stuff! Eight G's plus all the "L" glass amounts to less than life-changing coinage, but nonetheless is a lotta dough!



For now, I patiently await the new body, and I hope my luck doesn't mimic that of HKFEVER!! Mean time; maybe I'll pick up a couple of swabs and some "Sensor Clean" to see if I can de-smear the low pass glass on this soon to be returned body, without fricking it up!!


Movick

When the new body arrive, take couple test shoot ASAP for record.

Copperhills' product will help you clean up 99.99% of the dust.

Always turn off the camera before change lens.
Always face the lens mount down to change lens.
Always blow the lens mount area on the camera before change lens.
Always blow the lens mount area on the lens before change lens.
Not to change lens in windly area.....
With the above, you may only need to clean the sensor (low pass filter, or call AA filter) once in a blue moon.

Happy shooting:D

[HKFEVER]

Just pre-caution.

Teasing.:p

1. Dots on the low pass filter most are dust that can be cleaned.
2. But some tiny tiny tiny dots will stick on it like my 1st 1DSMKII that can't be cleaned. It may be behind the filter.

If I were you, will try to clean it until it is too late to return to Canon for exchange.

At the mean time, find some pretty models and fire the camera.:lol: