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Brianbar
25th of March 2009 (Wed), 22:38
I haven't seen any reference made about micro lens adjustment on the new Rebel T1i.
The 50D had it as well as the 5D2, so my question is..... if it's not on the T1i, whats so different that it doesn't need it?
Brian

Dpsteak
25th of March 2009 (Wed), 22:42
Before the 50D and 5Dmk II, micro adjustment was reserved for only the 1 series bodies. The new rebel is designed as an entry level camera and I wouldn't expect an advanced feature like that to be in an entry level body. Plus, how many beginner amateurs with a kit lens would actually know what it is or use it?

Brianbar
25th of March 2009 (Wed), 22:55
Before the 50D and 5Dmk II, micro adjustment was reserved for only the 1 series bodies. The new rebel is designed as an entry level camera and I wouldn't expect an advanced feature like that to be in an entry level body. Plus, how many beginner amateurs with a kit lens would actually know what it is or use it?

I'm sure that all Rebel have great IQ, not any better or worse that a 50D, so if that being the case, why did we need to have Micro adjustments to start with on ANY model?
You don't have to be an amateur to own a Rebel, there are many photographers that prefer the Rebel for what ever reason, and I'm sure IQ is not an issue.
Brian

gjl711
25th of March 2009 (Wed), 23:09
... The new rebel is designed as an entry level camera and I wouldn't expect an advanced feature like that to be in an entry level body. Plus, how many beginner amateurs with a kit lens would actually know what it is or use it? Pure bunk. Microfocus adjustment is a simple feature requiring no more than a few data locations in non volatile memory and and a simple interface any high school kid could program up. It's yet another example of Canon using the simplest of features to differentiate the the xxxD and the xxD lines. It would have cost them nothing to add the feature to the new xxxD making it a better camera. I'm guessing that some marketing guy convinced some other marketing guy that adding in that feature would crush the 50D.

Calicajun
25th of March 2009 (Wed), 23:13
Pure bunk. Microfocus adjustment is a simple feature requiring no more than a few data locations in non volatile memory and and a simple interface any high school kid could program up. It's yet another example of Canon using the simplest of features to differentiate the the xxxD and the xxD lines. It would have cost them nothing to add the feature to the new xxxD making it a better camera. I'm guessing that some marketing guy convinced some other marketing guy that adding in that feature would crush the 50D.

As easy as programing a VCR was for new owners.:lol:

podoco
25th of March 2009 (Wed), 23:21
I'm sure that all Rebel have great IQ, not any better or worse that a 50D, so if that being the case, why did we need to have Micro adjustments to start with on ANY model?
You don't have to be an amateur to own a Rebel, there are many photographers that prefer the Rebel for what ever reason, and I'm sure IQ is not an issue.
Brian

I disagree. The tolerances become more noticeable with faster glass and I understand calibration can actually change over time. I'm not saying your camera is not calibrated perfectly but I am saying you shouldn't rule out those customers who have had calibration problems because we are out there.

Coincidentally, I've recently had to calibrate my own XT and have decided I will only be getting a camera with the micro-adjust in the future.

kevindar
25th of March 2009 (Wed), 23:51
1. B/C everything costs extra money to put in.
2. B/C there are features that differentiate various bodies. Its canon way of saying if you want such and such feature, go the the next level. does 1ds3 cost 3K more than 5d2 to make? does a 1d3 cost 2K more than a 50D to make? why does 50D have cross type sensor on 9 focus points, where a more expensive camera (5D) does not? Questions will be endless.

Dpsteak
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 12:13
I'm sure that all Rebel have great IQ, not any better or worse that a 50D, so if that being the case, why did we need to have Micro adjustments to start with on ANY model?
You don't have to be an amateur to own a Rebel, there are many photographers that prefer the Rebel for what ever reason, and I'm sure IQ is not an issue.
Brian

I agree that you do not have to be an amateur to own a rebel, but most people that will buy the new rebel probably won't be pros either. If you really need M/A, then buy a 50D. If you can live without it then enjoy a great deal with the rebel T1i.

Of course Canon could add M/A rather cheaply but then it's just one more reason not to pay more money for the 50D.

SBWorking
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 13:52
I have to admit that MA is causing me to consider an upgrade to the 50D. I'm sure it's not a big deal to some but I would love to be able to have all my lenses spot on without shipping them off for calibration. I would never have made the move to the 1D series or 5dII, but the 50D is doable. In almost every other respect I am perfectly happy with what I have.

KayakPhotos
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 13:55
Pure bunk. Microfocus adjustment is a simple feature requiring no more than a few data locations in non volatile memory and and a simple interface any high school kid could program up. It's yet another example of Canon using the simplest of features to differentiate the the xxxD and the xxD lines. It would have cost them nothing to add the feature to the new xxxD making it a better camera. I'm guessing that some marketing guy convinced some other marketing guy that adding in that feature would crush the 50D.

+1. I wish they would offer a firmware upgrade to the 40D to allow MA. It won't happen, but I can still wish for it!

Sean
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 14:17
If they added Micro Adjust to the Rebel, than they would have added more reason NOT to buy their 50D.

KayakPhotos
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 14:18
If they added Micro Adjust to the Rebel, than they would have added more reason NOT to buy their 50D.

This is true. The differences are looking pretty slim..Plus you get video with the new Rebel.

dadCameraGuy
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 14:46
I agree, there have to be some features that keep the Rebel different than the higher priced cameras. (especially since I have the 5D mk ii LOL)

gjl711
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 15:38
I agree, there have to be some features that keep the Rebel different than the higher priced cameras. (especially since I have the 5D mk ii LOL) Then differentiate the cameras by real capabilities. The problem that i have always had with the xxD bodies are that they are nothing more than the xxxD bodies dressed up to make it seem as if they were better and Canon uses silly little features to try to convince the buying public that just because the xxD cameras have a metal shell and a bigger package they are better camera, and we are buying it.

It's plain silly. Think about it. Same sensor, same processor, same electronics, different dressing. I think that Canon needs to grow up and offer three distinctly different classes of cameras. Consumer cameras, the current xxxD series, pro cameras, the current xD series and a real prosumer level camera. Better autofocus than the xxxD but not as good as the xxD, better image sensor as the xxxD but not as good as the xxD, real photographer features like built in flash triggers, dual card slots, weathersealing, and not the cheap ones Canon chooses to withhold like MFA.

But as long as consumers are convinced that painting a racing stripe down the middle of your AMC Gremlin makes it a sports car, Canon will continue to offer the uninspiring upgrades in the xxD line as the last few have been.

KayakPhotos
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 15:40
Then differentiate the cameras by real capabilities. The problem that i have always had with the xxD bodies are that they are nothing more than the xxxD bodies dressed up to make it seem as if they were better and Canon uses silly little features to try to convince the buying public that just because the xxD cameras have a metal shell and a bigger package they are better camera, and we are buying it.

It's plain silly. Think about it. Same sensor, same processor, same electronics, different dressing. I think that Canon needs to grow up and offer three distinctly different classes of cameras. Consumer cameras, the current xxxD series, pro cameras, the current xD series and a real prosumer level camera. Better autofocus than the xxxD but not as good as the xxD, better image sensor as the xxxD but not as good as the xxD, real photographer features like built in flash triggers, dual card slots, weathersealing, and not the cheap ones Canon chooses to withhold like MFA.

But as long as consumers are convinced that painting a racing stripe down the middle of your AMC Gremlin makes it a sports car, Canon will continue to offer the uninspiring upgrades in the xxD line as the last few have been.

So basically, you think we should do what Nikon is doing? I would agree with that except for the fact that I think APS-H is probably the happy medium between a crop and full-frame for sports.

gjl711
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 15:56
So basically, you think we should do what Nikon is doing? I would agree with that except for the fact that I think APS-H is probably the happy medium between a crop and full-frame for sports. I wasn't going to bring up the N word, but they do seem to be listening to their photog customers and their Dxxx line (our xxD) clearly is different than their consumer line of bodies. And yes, APS-H would be a very welcome adition.

KayakPhotos
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 15:59
I wasn't going to bring up the N word, but they do seem to be listening to their photog customers and their Dxxx line (our xxD) clearly is different than their consumer line of bodies. And yes, APS-H would be a very welcome adition.

I'm not afraid to bring up the name. They have been doing a lot better lately with regards to camera bodies. The lens prices are just too high though...

gjl711
26th of March 2009 (Thu), 16:06
I'm not afraid to bring up the name. They have been doing a lot better lately with regards to camera bodies. The lens prices are just too high though...
Yes they have. I have no intention of switching because i know as soon as i do, Canon wll once again regain the lead in the mid-range and I'll be kicking myself. Plus, it's more just a rant than a real issue. Canon's xxD line is still a mighty fine piece of hardware, but it could be better.

CreedThoughts
1st of April 2009 (Wed), 13:09
i just got a 50d and the micro adjustment feature is amazing. I love how you can store adjustments for 20 different lenses on the 50d. you will always have the focus perfect with this and not have to worry if your lens is back or front focusing.

foxesamu
1st of April 2009 (Wed), 13:23
I wasn't going to bring up the N word, but they do seem to be listening to their photog customers and their Dxxx line (our xxD) clearly is different than their consumer line of bodies. And yes, APS-H would be a very welcome adition.
I don't think our situation is any different from yours. The D90 and D300 have nearly identical internals, with the only real differences being AF/fps, build quality, video and viewfinder size. Sound familiar?

MichaelBernard
1st of April 2009 (Wed), 15:08
Before the 50D and 5Dmk II, micro adjustment was reserved for only the 1 series bodies. The new rebel is designed as an entry level camera and I wouldn't expect an advanced feature like that to be in an entry level body. Plus, how many beginner amateurs with a kit lens would actually know what it is or use it?

I don't think many intermediates know what it is for either...just saying.

Kruzkal
1st of April 2009 (Wed), 17:35
Then differentiate the cameras by real capabilities. The problem that i have always had with the xxD bodies are that they are nothing more than the xxxD bodies dressed up to make it seem as if they were better and Canon uses silly little features to try to convince the buying public that just because the xxD cameras have a metal shell and a bigger package they are better camera, and we are buying it.

It's plain silly. Think about it. Same sensor, same processor, same electronics, different dressing. I think that Canon needs to grow up and offer three distinctly different classes of cameras. Consumer cameras, the current xxxD series, pro cameras, the current xD series and a real prosumer level camera. Better autofocus than the xxxD but not as good as the xxD, better image sensor as the xxxD but not as good as the xxD, real photographer features like built in flash triggers, dual card slots, weathersealing, and not the cheap ones Canon chooses to withhold like MFA.

But as long as consumers are convinced that painting a racing stripe down the middle of your AMC Gremlin makes it a sports car, Canon will continue to offer the uninspiring upgrades in the xxD line as the last few have been.

Wrong. Same resolution != same sensor, same generation but different processors (~double the frame rate -> double the processing power), different electronics (all cross type AF as opposed to one center), larger brighter pentaprism VF as opposed to pentamirror.

I moved from 400D to 40D before the 5D Mk II and I can tell you although the IQ at low ISO is near identical, higher ISO RAW there is still a difference. And because of the larger viewfinder, better handing and more accurate and usable outer AF points, I was able to capture images that were simply not possible before.

Sorry, same engine size, different builds, different speeds, different handing, different ergonomics, different cars.

gjl711
1st of April 2009 (Wed), 17:53
Wrong. Same resolution != same sensor, Or it could be the same sensor, we will never know. It makes manufacturing sense to use the same chip. Brings down manufacturing cost.

same generation but different processors (~double the frame rate -> double the processing power), But it is the same processor. It's just been programmed to deliver slower performance in one body so Canon can differentiate the two lines.

different electronics (all cross type AF as opposed to one center), larger brighter pentaprism VF as opposed to pentamirror..... Those are real differences. Pentaprism is clearly brighter than pentamirror and the AF sensor does have all cross type focus points. I was just saying that there should be more real differances.

Kruzkal
1st of April 2009 (Wed), 18:35
Or it could be the same sensor, we will never know. It makes manufacturing sense to use the same chip. Brings down manufacturing cost.

I can't find it but in a similar thread there was a link to an official video from a Canon rep stating the 500D sensor although share the same pixel count is not the same as the 50D. Much like the 5D Mk II is not the same design as the 1Ds Mk III.

But it is the same processor. It's just been programmed to deliver slower performance in one body so Canon can differentiate the two lines.

Fair enough. Different performance, different price tag. Similar to performance cars I suppose. A different tuning could cost you tens of thousands more.

gjl711
1st of April 2009 (Wed), 21:03
I can't find it but in a similar thread there was a link to an official video from a Canon rep stating the 500D sensor although share the same pixel count is not the same as the 50D. Much like the 5D Mk II is not the same design as the 1Ds Mk III.. I read that review. I believe it claimed that the sensor was the same but the micro lens array was not gap-less as it is in the 50D making it different.

dadCameraGuy
2nd of April 2009 (Thu), 22:53
I read that review. I believe it claimed that the sensor was the same but the micro lens array was not gap-less as it is in the 50D making it different.

The video I saw (and it is on my 500d/T1i blog (http://blog.planet500d.com/2009/03/additional-details-on-the-500d/)) did indeed say the sensors were different - not only the gap but the sensor for the 500d was designed to be different than any other canon camera.

mozart1899
3rd of April 2009 (Fri), 03:12
Ha, let's hope that Nikon will add this feature in their entry level DSLR, and force Canon to follow....

ntchi
19th of April 2009 (Sun), 06:58
Those are real differences. Pentaprism is clearly brighter than pentamirror and the AF sensor does have all cross type focus points. I was just saying that there should be more real differances.

Well there is lots of differences between a 50D and a 500D: Article from http://www.dpnotes.com/canon-t1i-vs-canon-50d/
(http://www.dpnotes.com/canon-t1i-vs-canon-50d/)
Canon 50D Advantages

Superior burst speed
If high speed action photography is your thing, and you need to capture extremely quick sequences of photos in rapid succession, then you'll need the 50D, as it is able to shoot at either 6.3 fps (frames per second) or 3 fps, while the T1i manages only 3.4 fps.
Part of the reason why the 50D is the faster camera is due to the difference in the number of channels that is dedicated to sensor data readout. According to Rob Galbraith's article, "HD video capture, 15MP sensor in Canon EOS Rebel T1i (http://robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9973-9976)":The two share a sensor that is nearly identical, and in some early side-by-side testing with a beta Rebel T1i, it appears the image quality is nearly identical too. The only notable specification difference is the number of channels each sensor incorporates for data readout: the 50D has four, while the Rebel T1i has two.
RobGalbraith.com has more to say on the burst depths of both cameras.

For the 50D (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9314-9568):A maximum frame rate of 6.3 fps (CIPA standard) for a Canon-specified 90 Large Fine JPEG (when a UDMA-capable CompactFlash card (http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=UDMA%20Compact%20Flash%20Cards&tag=dpnotes-20&index=blended&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) is used; 60 with a slower, non-UDMA card (http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=CompactFlash%20Cards&tag=dpnotes-20&index=blended&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)), 16 RAW or 10 RAW+JPEG frames (all at ISO 100). RAW (any type) + JPEG (any type) shooting is also possible. Note that burst depth doesn't drop when High ISO Noise Reduction is enabled, except when the Strong option is selected.
For the T1i / 500D (http://robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9973-9976):The new model has a maximum frame rate of 3.4fps (CIPA standard) for a Canon-specified 170 Large Fine JPEG or 9 RAW CR2. Note that burst depth doesn't drop when High ISO Noise Reduction is enabled, except when the Strong option is selected.

Autofocus (AF) sensors
All nine autofocus points on the 50D are of the cross type variety, while on the T1i / 500D, only the center one is.
AF and tracking accuracy, and speed of subject acquisition is higher on the 50D (espcially if you're talking about low-contrast subjects in low-light situations, say indoor sports) even if you use the outlying AF points.
You won't get the same level of performance with the same AF points on the T1i.

Maximum shutter speed
Top shutter speed on the 50D is 1/8000 seconds, while the T1i manages 1/4000.
The advantage of having a higher shutter speed comes into play when you're photographing subjects outdoors in bright light with a fast lens, say f/2 or larger.

White balance
In addition to presets and manual settings, the 50D lets you set White Balance in Kelvin values. You don't get to set Kelvin temperature values on the T1i.

sRAW formats
The small RAW formats available on the 50D are a boon to photographers who want to shoot and enjoy the post-processing benefits RAW files, yet don't mind images with smaller dimensions. This resolution flexibility for RAW images is not available on the 500D.

Viewfinder
The viewfinder in the 50D uses a pentaprism while a pentamirror is used for the viewfinder in the 500D. Pentaprism viewfinders give a brighter and larger image compared to pentamirror types.
Viewfinder magnification is higher on the 50D, 0.95x compared to only 0.87x for the T1i.
The 50D also has a higher eyepoint (22mm) than the T1i (19mm). This is an advantage for those who wear glasses as it means that you can still view the entire image in the viewfinder even if your eye is physically 22mm away.
For a really good read on viewfinders, please refer to this Luminous Landscape article (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/viewfinders.shtml).

Conclusion
Both camera offer the same, excellent image quality, but the difference in price reflects the types of use these cameras will be put through.
For photography that does not require high burst speeds, or blindingly-fast and accurate AF for moving subjects, the Rebel T1i / 500D (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001XURPQI?ie=UTF8&tag=dpnotes-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001XURPQI) is more than sufficient.
However, if the environment you're shooting in dictates that you need a more solidly-built camera, or if you need more control over, and faster access to camera settings, then the EOS 50D (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EQ4BVI?ie=UTF8&tag=dpnotes-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001EQ4BVI) is your camera.
There are photographers who would get both cameras anyway due to their unique requirements. The 50D usually ends up being the primary camera, while the T1i / 500D would serve as a competent backup unit.
I recently bouth my self a Tamron 18-270mm for a Canon 450D body...the danm lens was front focusing and coulnd't correct if with the AF Microadjusment since its not in the camera :mad:. Honestly for more advanced features, I mean ''PRO'' features the only way to go is xxD or xD. Canon is business like any others that needs to make profit out of there product. Just like Car companies. You want more features you'll pay more. A base car and a full loaded car share very similar features, but one cost 10k more. Why? Because of little improvement such as leather seats, automatic transmission, sunroof, heated seats, navigator system, 11 speakers, awd, etc... lol

Both brings you from A to B as long as your a real driver (read photographer) since there are only tools, but only with different comfort annd speed.

sonofjesse
19th of April 2009 (Sun), 17:57
I'm sure canon streamline costs,RD andother using the XXXD and the XXD lines with a lot of the same features. Think of the camaro and vette...same engines many of the years. Sure the camaro was about as fast, but still was not a vette...just like the XXXD and the XXD.

So I dont' really see this as a fault and i'm sure helps keep costs down. What do you suggest making the XXD worse of a camera? I"m guessing you want the XXD to be better, but then your running into the sales of the 5d...

So from a bussiness this would make ZERO sense!