How to get better results from RAW? Jpeg looks better.

[kraterz]

I use a Canon G6, and have been shooting JPEG and RAW for quite a while. With JPEG, I shoot with contrast, saturation and sharpening all set to 0 on the custome setup. When shooting raw, I process the files with adobe's raw converter on PS-CS (tried breeze browser and a few others but PS-CS is good). This software has several options, specially the luminance smoothing and color noise reduction which I fine tune for each image. I also set sharpness to zero and post process using other edge sharpening actions. After converting raw to 16-bit TIFF in AdobeRGB color space, the post processing typically involves some curves for color balance and contrast, and maybe some level adjustment.

In amlost all the cases, I find the JPEGs look better than the results from RAW. Of course, there are some JPEG artefacts at 100%, the occasional sharpening artefact, etc, but when it comes to smooth areas like a face on a portrait, the in camera processing seems far better than what I can get from PS-CS/raw. In most cases, no post processing or sharpening is required for JPEGs, they are good right out of the camera. No matter what I do, I can't seem to get those smooth tones in clear areas when I shoot raw.

I've read Bruce Fraser's books on adobe camera raw and PS-CS, and applied his tips on camera raw processing. I've also put the raw->tiff converted file through all sorts of filters, including a few which smoothen the face on portraits, etc, but the end result is quite different from the in camera JPEGs, which are not really smoothened, but have a 'creamy' texture to smooth areas, eg. skin, but at the same time appear sharp.

Is there something really fundamental I'm missing here? This can be quite frustrating. I know that RAW contains far more information and that it is possible to get a 'better' image from RAW, but what am I doing wrong? Or is it just the Canon's Digic magic which I can't replicate in software? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Avalonthas]

takes a while to refine ur technique, stick with it

[kraterz]

Hmmm... I was thinking about that. Currently shooting in RAW+JPEG mode, but in this case, does anyone know whether the G6 does its Digic magic on the JPEG, or if it's just a JPEG version of the raw image without the processing you would find if it were stored in JPEG only format (no raw)?

[billshack]

My guess is that the cam ALWAYS takes a pic in RAW but if you are only saving JPEG, that is what you see. From the Fraser book, when you shoot JPEG, the RAW captures get processed into JPEG and you essentially lose about a 3rd of your useful data - since RAW is 12 bit and JPEG is only 8 . Your resultant image will depend on what parameters you are using. I have JUST started shooting raw and still experimenting. I also bought the Fraser book and have had mixed results so far. I've only used Raw Essentials thus far but will try Adobe Raw Capture very soon. Good luck.

[flowe]

I'm not sure what you mean by "RAW+JPEG" mode. As I read the manual p.62, we can do only one or the other, either L...S or RAW. Then there is the option to save as RAW instead of JPEG while the image is still shown in the monitor after the shot.

The miniature JPEG mentioned at the bottom of the same page obviously is for replay in the camera. As I understand it, all effect settings apply to this miniature JPEG only, while RAW is and remains unmodified CCD data.

Are you sure that PS-CS caters for such poor people's lowly cameras such as the Canon G6?? ;) Is the G6 mentioned in the docs? RAW seems do be different from every single camera make and model.

I'm about to undertake some RAW experiments myself, after about 7000 very satisfactory JPEG shots... I'm trying the new stand-alone RawShooter software from www.pixmantec.com (http://www.pixmantec.com) (URL seems to be troubled at the moment). It explicitly handles the G6 and seems fairly handy, but whether it's better or worse than other RAW s/w and in what respect - no idea yet.

I'm about to take separate shots in LS and RAW from tripod to try to answer the very same questions as you: is the trouble worthwhile?

Looking forward to exchanging lessons learned
flowe

[flowe]

Regarding RawShooter: I learned about it here, with several treads, namely from Pekka too. Many thanks to all! Would probably be a good thing to have a separate forum section about it? A pool of experience?

Profoud info about the software here:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_18/essay.html

[PacAce]

I use a Canon G6, and have been shooting JPEG and RAW for quite a while. With JPEG, I shoot with contrast, saturation and sharpening all set to 0 on the custome setup. When shooting raw, I process the files with adobe's raw converter on PS-CS (tried breeze browser and a few others but PS-CS is good). This software has several options, specially the luminance smoothing and color noise reduction which I fine tune for each image. I also set sharpness to zero and post process using other edge sharpening actions. After converting raw to 16-bit TIFF in AdobeRGB color space, the post processing typically involves some curves for color balance and contrast, and maybe some level adjustment.

In amlost all the cases, I find the JPEGs look better than the results from RAW. Of course, there are some JPEG artefacts at 100%, the occasional sharpening artefact, etc, but when it comes to smooth areas like a face on a portrait, the in camera processing seems far better than what I can get from PS-CS/raw. In most cases, no post processing or sharpening is required for JPEGs, they are good right out of the camera. No matter what I do, I can't seem to get those smooth tones in clear areas when I shoot raw.

I've read Bruce Fraser's books on adobe camera raw and PS-CS, and applied his tips on camera raw processing. I've also put the raw->tiff converted file through all sorts of filters, including a few which smoothen the face on portraits, etc, but the end result is quite different from the in camera JPEGs, which are not really smoothened, but have a 'creamy' texture to smooth areas, eg. skin, but at the same time appear sharp.

Is there something really fundamental I'm missing here? This can be quite frustrating. I know that RAW contains far more information and that it is possible to get a 'better' image from RAW, but what am I doing wrong? Or is it just the Canon's Digic magic which I can't replicate in software? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
As someone already mentioned, you have to learn the ins-and-outs of ACR in order to get the image you want out of the raw file and that's going to take time and practice. If you need to have your converted images looking like the JPEG images from the camera as a starting point for your post-processing, then my suggestion is to use FVU to convert your raw files to TIFF. The default for the conversion is to use the camera set parameters and your converted TIFF image will looks almost identical to the JPEG image that comes from the camera.

[Hellashot]

Regarding RawShooter: I learned about it here, with several treads, namely from Pekka too. Many thanks to all! Would probably be a good thing to have a separate forum section about it? A pool of experience?

Profoud info about the software here:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_18/essay.html


Best thing to do is do a search for your topic before you post, because there's a good chance it's been posted and debated many times over - for everything.

[kraterz]

Yes, you can shoot RAW+JPEG, I've been doing this. The G6 gives you a CRW file with raw and jpeg. You can use breeze browser to extract the raw or the jpeg image from the CRW. And the JPEG can be any size from small to full res.

Yes, PS-CS supports the G6, if you look at adobe's site it's all there.
[size=2]I'm not sure what you mean by "RAW+JPEG" mode. As I read the manual p.62, we can do only one or the other, either L...S or RAW. Then there is the option to save as RAW instead of JPEG while the image is still shown in the monitor after the shot.

Are you sure that PS-CS caters for such poor people's lowly cameras such as the Canon G6?? ;) Is the G6 mentioned in the docs? RAW seems do be different from every single camera make and model.

[kraterz]

Looks like I discovered the source of my problem. It was adobe's ACR. I've been working with ACR on my raw images for a few weeks. A couple of days back I happened to finally start with Pixmantec's raw shooter essentials. RSE is simply way ahead of ACR. With a little learning and tweaking, the images out of RSE are far superior to anything ACR has given me.

RSE somehow manages to deliver an incredible amount of detail, and decent sharpness, at the same time doing an excellent job with noise reduction. I have never been able to achieve this with ACR.

Yes, it's a two step process now, first RSE then work on the image with PS, but the results are well worth it.