Ethics question about wedding photography.

[Sam]

Hi all,

I attended my sister's wedding this past weekend and was really dissapointed in the level of professionalism displayed by the photographer. I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone who has gottend paid for this type of work and see if you have any advice on how to approach the situation.

My sister and brother in law met their photographer at a bridal show, was impressed with her portfolio and then went to her studio to work out the details. They had her shoot the engagement pictures and were happy with those so then they proceeded to book her for the wedding.

She was contracted to shoot 300 pictures and was paid up front for her services. That seemed pretty standard and there were no issues with that. She was also told where the wedding would be as well as the reception. They were about sixty miles apart so they wanteds to be sure it would not be an issue for her. The photographer assured them that it was no big deal and she could handle the job.

The day of the wedding the photographer was at my mother's house taking some pictuires of the bride getting ready as well as some of the bridal party. She then went to the site and set up to take the pre wedding pictures and the ceremony itself.

When we arrived at the reception the photographer took a few pictures of the cake and the set up and then sat down. I was acting father of the bride so I was not really all that worried about what the photographer was doing I had my hands full with other details.

I walked into my sisters room and she was sitting there crying. At first I thought it was just wedding day nerves and whatnot. Come to find out the photographer had taken her 300 photo's and was leaving before the toasts, first dance and cutting of the cake.

I was furious but by the time I went looking the photographer had left. Before she left she had my brother in law pay her an additional traveling fee that was not mentioned in the origional contract. Afraid that he may not be able to get any photo's at all if he didn't pay, he paid it and let her go.

I understand that the contract was for 300 photo's but my sister had specifically stated that she was more interested in photojouralistic photo's from the reception than the scenery at the ceremony.

To me this is not an acceptable way to do business. If I had known about it earlier I would have paid to have her stay if that is what it took, but we were not given the option.

I am going to call and talk to her but first I was hoping for some advice from a non biased person. Am I over reacting?

Luckily I had my gear with as and so did my step father. My pictures came out ok dispite the circumstances, my step father was shooting film so we won't be able to see his until he gets them back from the lab.

Thank you to anyone who actually read this entire rant. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[IndyJeff]

I hate to side with the photographer here but I do. Her contract was for 300 images and that is what she took right?

Now for your sister's side, shame on the photographer for not explaining that 300 images meant 300 images total and not just from the wedding and reception. Also shame on her for not staying, even if it took extra money to get her to stay. Shame on her for asking for the travel pay.

Your sister should have gotten a better understanding of what was expected and delivered by the photographer. Also that the wedding and the reception were so far from each other.

The photographer should have made it very clear that when image number 300 was clicked, that was it, end of deal. Sounds to me like she did take advantage of the situation and maybe your sister and bro in law were a little nieve in thinking that all the before the wedding images didn't count towards the total.

Personally, I think you should just leave it alone. What can you do about it now? You think you may get a discount for your sister? The WP did what she was contracted to do...take 300 images. If anything, report to the Better Business Bureau and it will be filed as a complaint against the photographer in her BBB file. Altho she did nothing wrong, it doesn't seem as if she was upfront about the image count, when it started and when it would end.

What if she would have had 300 images even before the wedding day!!!

[robertwgross]

Maybe I am out of touch here, but I don't think that most wedding photographers have agreements for a fixed number of shots, such as 300. I think it is much more common to have an agreement for a fixed amount of time (which is often poorly estimated).

On one wedding deal, the B&G had signed up for a four-hour deal, and they declined the eight-hour unlimited deal. OK. It was pointed out that if they required any additional time, then the fee would be at X dollars per hour. OK. The four-hour deal was paid on time, the ceremony happened, and the photography went well. The reception was located about a 30-minute drive away, and they hadn't planned on guests being so late getting there. Photography went fine, but the clock ran out, so to speak. Right at the end of the four hours, we pointed out to the father of the bride that the time had run out, even though the reception was only getting into full swing. He said that he would be responsible for any additional time fees, and his word was good enough for us. We stayed through the bouquet toss, and then the last shot was the newlywed couple walking off into the sunset.

Afterwards, the father of the bride asked how much extra he was going to have to pay. Our response was that it had been a really good reception, so we would hold them only to the pre-arranged fee. That's the way I like to do business. Give the customer slightly more than they bargained for.

---Bob Gross---

[jbradc]

Maybe I am out of touch here, but I don't think that most wedding photographers have agreements for a fixed number of shots, such as 300. I think it is much more common to have an agreement for a fixed amount of time (which is often poorly estimated).
Agreed, when I give a quote for a wedding it coves X hours of my time at Y number of locations. For example 5 hours at 2 locations, 6 hours at 3 locations, etc... To stop shooting at 300 (or any preset number) photos is insane.

[am_pitbull_terrier]

I hate to side with the photographer here but I do. Her contract was for 300 images and that is what she took right?

I really dont totally agree with that, how does she know that she has 300 USABLE photos. I don't know of anyone who could take 300 photos and have them all come out perfect. I guess it wasnt clear though if she should take 300 total, or 300 usable, finished photos. I guess that should have been hashed out prior to the wedding day too.

If those small deatails were not cleared up before hand, I don't see how LEGALLY she really did anything wrong... She took 300 photos as the contract stated. Morally though I think she was wrong.

[GenEOS]

My only dealing with a wedding photog was with the one I hired to do mine. My fee was based on how many hours he would be there. He also asked who would be in the wedding and the number of guest, asked about the facility, reception, etc. He then went over a list of his standard shots that he would be taking. We had a chance to add or subtract. The estimated time was based on our discussion with him and what we planned for time.

Now my wedding was simple, but the point here is that the photographer, in contracting to shoot a wedding, has a responsibility to communicate with his clients what he expects and what is expected.

I personally think a wedding photog who contracts to shoot a certain number of images without reguards to content is a little shady.

Buyer be ware, there are crooks amoung us. Sad but unfortunately true.

[DocFrankenstein]

So, did the photog covered the standard poses? Walk down the aisle? Ceremony? Rings? Cake cutting? Bouqet toss?

One would think that wedding is photograping THOSE pictures.

[Sam]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies...

I hate to side with the photographer here but I do. Her contract was for 300 images and that is what she took right?

I would whole heartedly agree with you Jeff if my sister had not been so specific and had not stated that she wanted a lot of reception shots. I believe that a professional should step in and warn the couple of possible issues before the event. This was not the first wedding the photographer was hired for. If I was the one hired and my client told me that they wanted a lot of friends and family at the reception I would have warned them that it may be tight and another package (for lack of a better word) with X amount of shots is available.

I do not fault the photographer for leaving after 300 shots. But I do fault her for not giving them another option and leaving without pictures of the cake cutting, first dances and toasts. Especially because these items were important to the client and had been mentioned when they hired her.

Personally, I think you should just leave it alone. What can you do about it now? You think you may get a discount for your sister? The WP did what she was contracted to do...take 300 images. If anything, report to the Better Business Bureau and it will be filed as a complaint against the photographer in her BBB file. Altho she did nothing wrong, it doesn't seem as if she was upfront about the image count, when it started and when it would end.

I honestly didn't think a discount or any other compensation would be possible. At least without months of hassle. For me it was more about how the situation was handled than the money. It was my sister but I was "father of the bride" and when my sister was so upset and crying to me I became very angry. If me or our stepfather hadn't been there with cameras we would not have pictures of the things she wanted most. I would just hate to see this person ruin someone elses memories the way she did for my baby sister. The BBB is one option I had thought about but in all honesty how many people go through looking for any issues there before booking a photographer.

Weddings are a one shot deal. It takes incredible talent and nerve in my opinion to record these memories for someone. The pressure on the photographer must be incredible. To walk away and leave someone who obviously wanted something other than what you gave them just plainly blows my mind.

Am I over reacting? you ask... this is your ownly question. Answer: No I don't think you are. Because you asked here first before you punched out the photographer.

We can only assume what the real questions are.

What is your real question? Also suggest a few outcomes? Save $$$, get a discount? Hmmm I honestly think photographers fuse shortens after doing weddings... They will only do what you agree to. What else can you expect.

I will say as a warning to both parties in the future, get EVERYTHING in writing. And at any time if the contract is not met, then also suggest no payment, or something along that line.

Also if the pictures are that important, could not the immediate family dress up again and take a photo day? It's all possible, and yes I know it's not the same, but it's always good to plan for a perfect day, but when it rains, it's always good to have a rain-day plan.

Just my thoughts...

W

PS
I am kind of amazed you found this forum, asked now, too bad you didn't come 2 months ago, and ask for advice on picking a good photographer for the wedding. I bet you would have got 3 pages of stuff to check out.

When my daughter gets married I will be VERY prepared. When I was married we had a similar agreement with our photographer but everything went very smooth and any problems that the photographer could forsee was talked about ahead of time.

[IndyJeff]

Now my wedding was simple, but the point here is that the photographer, in contracting to shoot a wedding, has a responsibility to communicate with his clients what he expects and what is expected.

I personally think a wedding photog who contracts to shoot a certain number of images without reguards to content is a little shady.


I agree totally and wholeheartedly with that statement GenEos. It is my full belief that this WP knew exactly what she was doing. With all the pre wedding day shots, she knew she was running down on the WD image count.

Pitbull it is hard for us to know without seeing the actual agreement but, in the original post it was stated:

She was contracted to shoot 300 pictures and was paid up front for her services.

So based upon that I would assume that she was obligated to 300 images. A reasonable mind would think that she would shoot more to insure she had 300 but, this WP doesn't sound to reasonable to begin with.

I don't know of anyone who could take 300 photos and have them all come out perfect.

LOL I once was asked to do a brochure for a racing venture. I asked how many and of what. They stated they needed 1 on track action shot, 1 at the finish line and 1 of the driver with the car.
I took 4 shots, two of which were the on track action shot. They only wanted to pay $100 so that is what I gave them....$100 worth of shots. They did question why I said I was done. I simply said that I didn't need to shoot anymore. I had what they needed and if they wanted more to look at we can talk extra money for me staying there. What I had worked and they were happy. That was with film too, I was glad they did turn out ok but, then again, I dind't have any doubts....well.....not much.

[Sam]

I don't have the contract with me but I spoke with her in the morning before she was even setup at the house and asked if I would be able to take a few shots of the wedding party as she was finished posing them. I didn;t want to be in her way or slow her down as she was getting paid...

Her reply was " you are going to have 300 pictures and you are welcome to ask for any of them to be copied for your (meaning me) use.

[tim]

In my opinion the wedding photograper has acted incredibly unprofessionally. She knew the requirement to get lots of reception shots, and because she made the mistake of taking too many shots early, she left early. Leaving without giving them the option of extending the time is appallingly bad. Maybe she followed the letter of the contract, but not the spirit of it.

I would complain to the photographer, and the BBB, and if you don't get a satisfactory response it'll be name and shame time in her local area. They won't get the wanted photo back, but at least your sister will have closure.

Edit - i'm not a professional photographer.

Edit in 2008 - now I AM a professional photographer, i'd do the same thing.

[Sam]

Warren,

Thanks but no thanks for your comment. I was looking for any advice that the professionals on this board had to offer. If you are a pro photographer you obviously do not shoot weddings. I am sorry that your family has had issue with divorce. My parents divorced and remarried so we are no stranger to the process...

I have only dealt with a wedding photographer in one other situation. That was my wedding and everything went smooth.

The fact that you tried to solve my problem by telling me to advise them on a divorce lawyer is plain insulting. By the way it is spelled Divorce.

One more thing, This past Summer I helped celebrate my Wife's grandparents 50th wedding anniversary. Not all marriages fail.

[Claire]

Ok, my personal opinion here (based on the previous posts) is that legally she doesn't seem to have done something wrong. She took 300 pics and that was in her contract. I think we all agree on that part. I also think we all agree that it's a damn shame both customer and photographer didn't go through the contract details more thoroughly (i.e. what exactly do I get for this price?).

I do find it really unprofessional of her to not have written the travel expenses clearly into her contract, and whatever other expenses there might be. It should all have been in the contract. At the same time, the customer does have to try and ask detailed questions, it's partly our own responsibility to ask tons of questions as business people tend to leave out stuff. May it be on purpose or not. And yes, get EVERYTHING in writing. And make copies of everything.

The whole deal about leaving right after the 300th image is plain rude! She should have communicated much better with the clients, and the fact that she left without even saying bye to the bride/groom I find really rude. I sure as hell would want my photographer to at least find me and say "ok, I'm done and ready to leave". No class. I wouldn't recommend her to anyone.

Warren,
I see your point and to an extent I can agree with you; yes, it's only pics and what do they really matter when they might be divorced a few years later. Trust me, I've myself thought "why the heck are Americans spending so much on weddings?!", BUT, the thing is, one certainly doesn't PLAN to get divorced. Yes, everyone's aware it might happen, but still. At the time of the wedding THAT'S what matters to the people at that point in their life. Different people put emphasis on different things. Some want a very expensive dress/ring/party/pics. Everyone's different and I may find it overdone, but if that's what matters to the couple, then go for it.

[jukas]

The photographer may have fullfilled her contractual obligation, but her behavior is entirely un-ethical. You stated the bride mentioned wanting all the standard shots including cake cutting, first dance, etc. You also mentioned that the bride informed the photog ahead of time about the distance between the ceremony and reception location.

This person has presented themselves as a professional photographer, and they certainly haven't lived up to that name. Part of being a professional is anticipating what your client wants/needs and if that is realistic. Ignoring the fact that I've never heard of a wedding photog bill out by the number of shots they take (it's usually 4 /8 hr rate + $ for x shot package etc) they should have at the very minimum informed someone that the contract limit was being approached and if they stayed it would cost x more. What professional in their right mind would walk away without a single word, from an upselling situation?

I would be very wary of any photographer who tried to contract based on the number of shots *they* took. It sounds like this photog didn't care enough to really give their best and simply took lots of shots early on to get them out of their early. The fact that she didn't talk to the FOB/MOB and try and extend her contract shows that she either overbooked herself or just wanted the quick cash and didn't care about meeting the bride's expectations.

I'm not a wedding photographer, and I've politely turned down the 3 I've been asked to do, but I did stay at a Holliday Express once :twisted:

[tbfoto]

I agree that the photographer did her job as per the contract. This does not mean that she did her job correctly. If her job was to cover this wedding within 300 shots then she was contracted to cover the entire wedding within those 300 shots. This sounds to me like that included the reception. A good photographer knows what his/her shot count is. They should know how to properly manage those shots to fit the size of wedding they are shooting. She should have known ahead of time how many people were in the wedding party and how many shots that would add up to. When interviewing with the couple she should have been able to tell them if this wedding could be covered in full with 300 shots or not. It sounds like she agreed to do just that then failed to do her job by managing her shots to cover the entire wedding. I always tell couples that I will be there for the "whole" wedding, including the reception. My contract includes a shot count of approx. 250-350 shots. In fact I did this on purpose in the contract to cover myself if it turns out to be a very simple non-active event. I am VERY clear to the bride that the total will vary from one wedding to the next. I have shot up to 450 shots and never thought anything about it. I mean hey... I'm there do do a job and don't consider it done until every aspect of the wedding has been covered. I also check with the bride before I leave to see if there are any last minute shots that she would like before I go. The photographer here may have done her job......she just didn't do it very well. OH ....one more thing, she also lost any future referels due to this unhappy bride, over what...a couple more rolls of film?



My two cents worth,
Tom

[robertwgross]

Don't get me wrong here. I am not exactly defending the photographer.

However, something completely unexpected may have happened that the family was not aware of, and the photographer was. For example, if the photographer got lost on the way over to the reception, then that would explain why they were late. If the photographer's car got ticketed for illegal parking during the ceremony, then I could understand a bad attitude for the rest of the day. If the photographer's camera suddenly went "belly up" or displayed the dreaded Error 99 message, then I could understand why they might feel the need to cut and run. Some guest at the reception might have said something nasty to the photographer. Maybe the photographer suddenly felt ill. You wouldn't like it if they tossed their cookies in the middle of the first dance.

I'm just saying that anything strange could have happened to give the photographer a fairly valid need to leave. Without knowing that side of the discussion, all of this is mere speculation.

---Bob Gross---

[DaveG]

Hi all,

I attended my sister's wedding this past weekend and was really dissapointed in the level of professionalism displayed by the photographer. I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone who has gottend paid for this type of work and see if you have any advice on how to approach the situation.

My sister and brother in law met their photographer at a bridal show, was impressed with her portfolio and then went to her studio to work out the details. They had her shoot the engagement pictures and were happy with those so then they proceeded to book her for the wedding.

She was contracted to shoot 300 pictures and was paid up front for her services. That seemed pretty standard and there were no issues with that. She was also told where the wedding would be as well as the reception. They were about sixty miles apart so they wanteds to be sure it would not be an issue for her. The photographer assured them that it was no big deal and she could handle the job.

The day of the wedding the photographer was at my mother's house taking some pictuires of the bride getting ready as well as some of the bridal party. She then went to the site and set up to take the pre wedding pictures and the ceremony itself.

When we arrived at the reception the photographer took a few pictures of the cake and the set up and then sat down. I was acting father of the bride so I was not really all that worried about what the photographer was doing I had my hands full with other details.

I walked into my sisters room and she was sitting there crying. At first I thought it was just wedding day nerves and whatnot. Come to find out the photographer had taken her 300 photo's and was leaving before the toasts, first dance and cutting of the cake.

I was furious but by the time I went looking the photographer had left. Before she left she had my brother in law pay her an additional traveling fee that was not mentioned in the origional contract. Afraid that he may not be able to get any photo's at all if he didn't pay, he paid it and let her go.

I understand that the contract was for 300 photo's but my sister had specifically stated that she was more interested in photojouralistic photo's from the reception than the scenery at the ceremony.

To me this is not an acceptable way to do business. If I had known about it earlier I would have paid to have her stay if that is what it took, but we were not given the option.

I am going to call and talk to her but first I was hoping for some advice from a non biased person. Am I over reacting?

Luckily I had my gear with as and so did my step father. My pictures came out ok dispite the circumstances, my step father was shooting film so we won't be able to see his until he gets them back from the lab.

Thank you to anyone who actually read this entire rant. Thanks in advance for any advice.


Every photographer does things a little different. On the face of it your photographer left after 300 shots and didn't do what the client wanted. But there is plenty of room for confusion here especially if your sister met with a number of wedding photographers.

If I was you I'd ask to see the contract to find out what the photographer promised to do, not what your sister THINKS that they promised.

I bet she met with a bunch of wedding photographers six months before the wedding and everyone had a different plan. Then there's a reasonably good chance that your sister is confusing her photographer's package with someone else's.

I don't shoot much of the reception. I get a pretend to cut the cake shot before the reception begins and then a shot of the B&G sitting at their place at the head table. That's it for the reception. Now my B&G's know this and accept it. From my perspective very few shots at the reception make good photographs and they would have to pay a lot extra to get this coverage. I also - to be frank - don't want to deal with the drunks.

I few years ago I was hired at the last minute to shoot a wedding and sadly I agreed. The sister did the hiring 48 hours before the wedding and told me that I didn't need to meet the bride and groom. I told her all about my plan including the 15 minutes only at the reception. Well on the day, the bride was pissed off when she found out about this, and this was obviously something that didn't get discussed between the sister and the bride. The bride then expected that I would stay, and I got caught in the middle.

Now I won't shoot a wedding without a formal sitdown with the B&G because it's this kind of he said/she said that makes me crazy. At another wedding presentation I made it clear that I would shoot the early part of the wedding (it was Indian) but that I wouldn't shoot the whole day part of it unless my fees more than doubled. The mom and dad happily agreed to the lower fee and then on that day insisted that they had me from dawn to dusk. A fully westernized cousin who was at the presentation came to my rescue, but there were two people who could have passed a lie detector test based on there recollection of what they WANTED to hear rather than what I did say.

"My sister and brother in law met their photographer at a bridal show, was impressed with her portfolio ..."

You say that your sister hired the photographer based on her portfolio. Surely it was a photojournalistic wedding style in that portfolio. If there was, and the photographer shot it in another style then you have tons of room for complaint. But if she showed your sister a formal wedding style your sister should have no expectation of anything else.

I stress over and over again that if the bride doesn't like my pictures then she should hire someone else. And I have had bride's who like me, like my price, but don't particularly like my style; and then don't want this and this and this! They apparently like something that I've never shown them. How can I shoot a wedding like that?

This has nothing to do with photography but I once arrived at the reception with the bride and groom ten seconds behind me AND THEY WERE SERVING THE MEAL before the B&G had arrived!!! The bride was outraged at the stupid hotel staff until she found out that her mom had commanded them to serve the food.

Is there a possibility that the photographer told your sister - or someone else of rank in the wedding party - that if she took another 35 group shots then there wouldn't be any room for any more photography at the reception; and then was told to go ahead with the groups? At a certain point you can be asking the photographer to provide an unremunerated and umpromised service to your sister just because it's her wedding and it will upset her if they don't.

Of course if the photographer did promise all these things then you have every reason to be upset.

Ask questions. Get it in writing. Assume nothing.

[DaveG]

Maybe I am out of touch here, but I don't think that most wedding photographers have agreements for a fixed number of shots, such as 300. I think it is much more common to have an agreement for a fixed amount of time (which is often poorly estimated).

On one wedding deal, the B&G had signed up for a four-hour deal, and they declined the eight-hour unlimited deal. OK. It was pointed out that if they required any additional time, then the fee would be at X dollars per hour. OK. The four-hour deal was paid on time, the ceremony happened, and the photography went well. The reception was located about a 30-minute drive away, and they hadn't planned on guests being so late getting there. Photography went fine, but the clock ran out, so to speak. Right at the end of the four hours, we pointed out to the father of the bride that the time had run out, even though the reception was only getting into full swing. He said that he would be responsible for any additional time fees, and his word was good enough for us. We stayed through the bouquet toss, and then the last shot was the newlywed couple walking off into the sunset.

Afterwards, the father of the bride asked how much extra he was going to have to pay. Our response was that it had been a really good reception, so we would hold them only to the pre-arranged fee. That's the way I like to do business. Give the customer slightly more than they bargained for.

---Bob Gross---


I agree Bob. I try to stress to other wedding photographers and especially beginning ones that they are there to solve problems not to create them.

I went to a wedding a few years ago and the maid of honour met me at the door of the bride's house and said, "We have a problem." I figured "Hysterical bride. Been there. Done that." But it turned out that over half of the wedding party was too sick to attend. The bride's mom. The best man. Ugh. They said flu. I'm an amateur doctor so I said food poisoning.

Well I immediately offered to shoot what I could on the wedding day, but was willing to do the groups the next day if the bride wanted it.

She did and off we went to the church. I figured that I would shoot the service and the reception but the groom got sick just after the ceremony so with the B&G's permission I declared victory and went home, figuring that pictures of a green groom don't go over all that well.

I asked that they call me the next morning at 8:00 am so we could make are plans. He called Sunday morning right on time and now the bride was sick! Anyway we ended up in the park on Monday morning! I charged them nothing extra for this. You play it by ear and if everyone is dealing in good faith then I'll more than go the extra mile.

Another small wedding that I did had an interesting turn too. The bride had contracted for 45 shots - that's three rolls of 120 medium format film in 645 format. There was no proof album included and the bride called me a day or two before the wedding to find out how much one would cost. I told her and she said that her Maid of Honour wanted to buy her one as a wedding DAY gift in addition to a wedding gift I suppose. She also purchased another roll of film. After the call I added everything up and realized with pricing quirks that she was paying about $10 less for four rolls of film & and album, that what I normally charged for five rolls & and album. So being stupid - I suppose - I called her to tell her this and to say that with the fourth roll of film she would get the album for free.

Then on the morning of the wedding day I tried to call her at the hotel where she was staying. He parents were in the room and I got to talk to her dad. He told me that he would be paying for the wedding photos and asked how much it was. I didn't have the arithmatic with me and I said, "Well it was X and now she's added an extra roll of film which is Y and then there's tax on that ..." Then he said, "Well I don't pay sales tax." I just tried to laugh it off and said, "Well I have to charge it." and he replied "Well you're not like any plumber I know."

I should also say that I had strongly reccomended to the bride that she get a suite at the hotel so that we would have enough room to shoot B&G portraits if the weather was bad. It was bad weather too, but they didn't have the suite becasue dad thought that it was too expensive and checked out of it the night before.

This was not shaping up to be not a very nice wedding and I sure wasn't looking forward to "dad". I went to the hotel to get ready for the groups and the bride and her party came in. Her maid of honour rushed over with a cheque in her hand and to avoid dueling cheques I said to the bride who had caught up, "I think that your dad is going to take care of that.", and all 5' of her looked up at me and said, "Don't you worry about dad!" Then dad shows up, al 6' 6" of him! He won't look me in the eye and he sure won't look his daughter in the eye either. As a matter of fact I'm not sure if we made eye contact all day.

Now this is speculation but I think that he called his daughter after my phone call to bray about saving money on the taxes and the suite. What he didn't know was that I had given away money the day before and that the suite was really important to have. I think that she then just tore him a new one. I think that she ended up having a very good wedding day. I know that I did. But maybe not so good for dad.

[IndyJeff]

solinger I would say to have a close look at the contract. Does it say anything about "more PJ style" images from the reception than ceremony images?
What does it say? 300 shots of the wedding? The preshoot shots to be included in the total or is that a seperate issue.

I do agree the WP was totally unprofessional, took advantage of a nieve bride and was not clear in her intentions or in determining the wants and needs of the bride. The WP should have said before the ceremony that she was running low on shots remaining in the contract. Instead she shot away and bolted.


Unfortunately your sister has learned a costly but valuable lesson here. Be precise and get in writing what your wanting, exactly, from any contracted person/service. I am betting in the future she will be a bear when it comes to details of any contract.

As far as what good will it do to contact the BBB, have you checked on this WP from he!! to see what kind of a rating she has with the BBB? Wouldn't you and your sister just die if you saw she had a bad rating and this was a common complaint with her clients?
File the complaint anyway. It may not do your sister any good but, if over the course of the next 3 years, 1 bride to be calls the BBB when she has narrowed her WP choice down to this gal and 1 other WP and your sister's report is there don't you think your sister can feel good that she might have saved another bride from a nightmare wedding day?

[Steve Parr]

I shoot bands. They pay me "X" amount of money, and I provide them "X" amount of shots.

Now, when they pay me, I'd damn well better be prepared to give them the agreed on "X" amount of shots that they can use. If we agree on 50 shots, I'll shoot at least 100. If we agree on 100, I'll shoot at least 200. The time involved isn't taken into consideration, as some bands will only play a 45 minute set while others might play four 45 minute sets. I shoot until I'm comfortable with what I have. If I shoot 1,000 photos and can't give the band the agreed upon number of "useable" shots then, as far as I'm concerned, I haven't lived up to the agreement. Period.

In the scenario provided, certainly the argument could be made that the photographer said 300 shots would be taken. She took 300 shots, and then she split. Technically, I guess she's well within her rights to do so. If even one of those pictures is out of focus, I'd take issue with her, and I would force the issue.

In my opinion, she acted unprofessionally...

Steve

[Sam]

DaveG,

Your reply was exactly what I was hoping to get. I feel horrible for my sister and before I started calling everyone in the world I wanted someone to give me something to think about.

I do know that the photographer spoke highly of her PJ skills and one of her "specialties" was supposed to be getting good candids during the party. I live 600 miles away and did not get to look through the photographer's portfolio myself but that is what sold my sister on this particular person.

I guess what seems the worst of it to me is the fact that the photographer told only my sister she was done and left. Without the benifit of experience to back up my opinion I can't imagine leaving the wedding without making sure the B&G were happy with what they had coming. My sister fell into tears when the photographer told her she was leaving. If it were me or my parents she had talked to we would have asked what it would take to get the shots my sister wanted. I really believe all it would have taken was 3 more of the shots to make everyone happy.

I didn't think this topic would bring so much debate. It is a lesson well learned. Thank you all for your perspectives. Even if I don't agree I am A LOT less angry about this situation and it is more of a shame on us feeling.

[Sam]

Warren,

:D Thanks, your last post was actually the first one that has made me smile during this whole thing.

I know I am the king of spell check. I also knew that you would have errors coming back my way. I was just to lazy to check before I hit submit.

[IndyJeff]

Even if I don't agree I am A LOT less angry about this situation and it is more of a shame on us feeling.

Unfortunately, I think you hit the nail on the head here. Like I said in my first post I hate to side with the photographer but, from a legal standpoint I would have to if the contract called for 300 shots. You bet your bippy that is what a judge would look at, what did the contract say. Your sister can say that the photographer promised a 20x30 poster of 50 of the shots, framed, matted and delivered 1 hour after the wedding but, the judge will say that is fine but, where in the contract does it say that? If it ain't in ink, then it will just stink. (my best Johnny Cochran impression)

I would tell my sister that seeking legal action is going to do 2 things for sure:

1. Cost her money
2. Take up a lot of time
She will also dredge up all the unhappy memories of that day and possibly set herself up for a scolding from a judge, compounding the nightmare this has become for her. Be satisfied with what she has, and thankful that you and someone else had your camera's ready to pick up where the WP left off.

[robertwgross]

8... (joking) If this airs on Judge Judy, can you tell us when to watch?


Judge Judy shoots a Nikon, so she doesn't care.

---Bob Gross---

[RichardtheSane]

I can't really add much to what has already been said.

But make sure the photographer produces 300 usable images. If she doesn't, complain. A lot

[IndyJeff]

I can't really add much to what has already been said.

But make sure the photographer produces 300 usable images. If she doesn't, complain. A lot


You know Richard I was thinking about the "usable" part. Who defines what is usable?
Think about this, if anyone is ever thinking of adding that wording to a contract. What if the shot is good to you but, by saying they don't like it, and they do it on many shots, you haven't delivered the 300 usable shots so you have violated the terms of the agreement.
By using the wording "usable shots" in your contract your leaving a door wide open for the client to say, "Hey, this one isn't quite up to par. Neither is this one, or this one", etc etc. I see nothing wrong with a contract which states you will shoot 300 shots but, I would add wording that there will be at least 50 shots that were usable to be determined by the photographer based upon industry standards of clean, crisp, commercially acceptable images.

[S230]

Took me a while to read the entire thread from start to finish. I am glad that Solinger and WarrenO had clarified things. It took me 2 reads before things clicked in. The analogy was a example to use a proper person from the beginning. (Like hiring a good professional mechanic from the start. But if damage is done, just move on and try fixing it.).

Weddings are probably one of the most challenging job for photograhers especially when doing it along or if you are bloo dog. :)

I had done a few wedding myself. From what I am reading, 300 photos was not specified if usable or not. I generally quote lower such as 150 - 200 photos but I generally take more (much more) just for insurance. I also give away far more than what was quoted. you should see the smiles that some of these people had.

From what I am reading so far, this was a one man/woman show (one photographer). Giving the benefit of doubt, there was probably some communication problem and I believe that the photographer did what was instructed or was stressed out. (Or maybe a little too much drinking... :) )

I generally do photography with my partners(Minimum 2 peopple with backup equipment each). This provides redundancy and if anything is to happen to one person or equipment, we have a backup. More importantly is that we have fun and try not stress ourselves and take lots of break. The amount of photos we did for one of the weddings was over 3200 photos. (We knew the B&G and went nuts... ) but normally would shoot 25% - 70% over the specified amount. This should give enough coverage and from different angles.

Depending what style of photography you want. If you want just standard portrait photography, one person should be enough and 300 shots should be plenty. If you want PJ, then 300 may not be enough and more photographers will help to cover different angles but will cost much more.

Hope this helps. :)

[Moments]

Boy, I have to say that I only read the first post here and It has gotten me angry. As a full time Wedding photographer that owns a studio and has multiple shoots going on, that type of photographer gets me angry. Photographers like that give us real pros a bad rap. Yes she had a contract that stated 300 shots, but she should have been a professional and see that she was getting close to her count and saved film for later. The travel fee is a slik almost dishonest way of working. Truthfully, if her contract had all of the locations listed and no fee listed, she would most likely not be entitled to it. If she was also a reputable and experienced photographer she should have known how far 300 shots would go.

It is very fustrating to lose jobs to either amatures that either undercut us pros, and then have no real idea of how to do or what to do at a wedding. And also to lose jobs to photographers that either draw in jobs with low prices and just rely on upselling on the backside, or do these cut rate hourly or specific amount of proofs jos.

I never put my clients on a time clock or on a maximum or minimum proof amount. As I put it, I shoot for the wedding and not by the clock or album. I don't charge premiums for me to shoot instead of my other photographer, nor do I discount for his jobs. I don't try to book a job with low prices and then start to upsell with items that were not included in the original contract. Most of my clients do upgrade to larger albums, more prints, and frames once they see the proofs because they really like and enjoy thier photographs. I also don't say, pay me cash and you can save on the taxes. That just starts to show how some are dishonest and shady. Don't get me wrong, I hate sales taxes, but I run a reputable buisness.

Some studios and photographers are like used car salesmen. If any of you are used car salespeople, don't get mad, but you know what I'm talking about. They really give the buisness a bad rap and make it very difficult for those of us who really do care about our clients wedding. I could keep going on, and I will end with this. I do see many people here looking for information on how to, and what do I need for my first wedding. I really think that if anyone who has not regulary shot weddings should work as an assistant for a wedding photographer first to learn the buisness. My second photographer who I have known for 20 years, was a working commercial photographer for 25 years when he wanted to start in the wedding buisness, he had to come out with me on about 12 jobs and shoot, (not assist) along side me before he was even close to be ready to shoot a job on his own, even though he was to be going out with my top assistant who knows every bit of the wedding like the back of his hand. Even he (my top Assist) is not ready to photograph a job on his own, until he is 100% on the tech issues, and I'm confident that he will not crack under pressure.

A wedding is a very special and emotional day for not only the Bride and Groom, but also the families. I'm very fortunate that approx 50% of my weddings are from referrals, due to my approach to this buisness and my photography.

I always say that there are no retakes in the Wedding buisness.

[Moments]

Pete,

I disagree that there should be no limit set to the number of photos and the amount of time which the WP offers. The caterer, the cake maker, the dress maker, the reception hall, the church, the florist,the tuxedo rental shop, the band and/or DJ stipulate the limits of their goods and services. The photographer must do the same, otherwise, he'll find himself spending 8 hours or more ON SITE, taking hundreds of useless photos on the day of the wedding, later processing images the majority of which no one will want, and spending a LOT of time in post production processing.

It's one thing to offer specific terms. It's quite another to stipulate terms and then exceed the expectations of the contractee. That's good business.

But to spend 12 hours shooting a wedding then having to deal with 2000 images later is crazy and unnecessary.

Bloo Dog,

I do agree to some degree. When I say I don't put a limit on the shots that means that I will not shut off at say 200 300 or 400 shots. Depending upon the wedding they get between 350 - 600 proofs which are a combination of 2 1/4 film and digital. If I have a bride that starts talking numbers like 1200 images or more, I usually have a realistic talk with her and simply say that she can expect between 250 - 500 proofs. I take the approach that I shoot for the wedding day and what it holds. To date (Since 1984) I have not had any client ask me to quote a min in a contract. I guess they understand my approach to any wedding. When I first sit with a couple, I do find out what is important to them and what thier expectations are, during the first meeting that is my first priority, the next is to get them comfortable with me and understand my approach and my feelings about photography and photographing a wedding. By this point we have a good relationship and understanding about the day. They then view my work and talk about the pricing. Once they book, I give the clients a shoot list so I don't miss things that are importaint to them. I also have information sheets that deal with the families and thier photographs. I list three start times in the contract and then in a notes field, that I will stay until 15 mins before the end. I sometimes adjust things in my notes field in my contract. The first start time in the contract is at the brides house. I plan to stay for 1 - 1 1/2 hours with the brides family and bridesmaids. I then figure out travel time to the church and plan to arrive 45 mins before the service to photograph the Groom, Family & Groomsmen. The next time on the contract is the start of the service. I then have listed the start of the reception. I do stay until 15 mins before the receptions scheduled end. That is also listed if the client asks for it. Yes the day is usually 8 - 10 hours, but that's what it is, again I cover the Wedding. Even with that I feel I do exceed thier expectations, hence the referrals.

[Moments]

At 8-12 hours coverage, I assume that you're charging in the neighborhood of $5,000-6,000 per wedding.

I shot a high percentage of upscale weddings but had very few inquiries (one to be exact) for that amount of coverage, though there are a lot of people on this board who say that they regularly book all-day jobs. I guess that there are those clients who want the fairy tale wedding album, but if you supply traditional presentation and packaging, five hundred images will require you to present it as if it were the Encyclopedia Britannica. I just can't see it.

If you're supplying 500 images, what are they pictures of? How many are duplicates?

Hi Bloo Dog

Got your message about the second photog at a wedding, and Yes I now have a clause in the contract against it.

On to here, I'm located in the burbs of New York and we average $3000 - 5000 for a wedding. That is basically the average in my area.

On a job of say 500 proofs, as far as duplicates, each posed shot usually has 2 - 3 exposures in case of closed eyes, smiles, etc. On a large group I might shoot 4-5 shots. I shoot alot of combinations of family groups if thats what the bride/families ask for it. That drives the proof count up, and it also takes me away from shooting photojournalistic/candids. I also look for small detail items to capture like ribbons with the couples names & date on it. I shoot details of centerpieces, cake, etc. As I tell the couples, "if you have taken the time or thought to have something at your wedding, as a photographer, documenting your wedding, I should capture those items".

I have done a shoot or two for other friendly studios that I don't compete against, and they have asked me questions on how I did I light the shots, what lens was I using etc. I said, "your a photographer figure it out, it's not brain surgery". I have kind of a reputation for details and my candids. I also shoot alot of candids that hopefully show excitement and fun on a job. I edit some on the job and the rest are edited back in the studio. I usually give the clients 100 - 150 proofs of candids.

I just shot a Bat Mitzvah last sat. On that I shot approx 100 photos at the temple, which were edited down to 40 or so. We shot more families at the start of the reception and between my 2nd photographer (who is training for Bar/Bats) and I, we shot approx 700 at the reception. In the end, on Wed, I sent 357 color corrected images to the lab.

Do I shoot more than others? May be I do, maybe I don't, I don't care, I enjoy what I do and the way I do it brings back clients. If I work the way I do, treat the clients the way I do, shoot say 100 more shots than others do (what does it really cost $40 - $50), and it has brought in other clients, is that not what we want in the end?

[S230]

Someone shoud start a listing of all good and bad photograhers with ratings for each. I personally don't think it's illegal since it's going to be on a forum as long as the facts are true and ratings are based on polls along with comments.

Solinger, would it be reasonable if you to share with us the site of the photographer? Personally I am curious at their work.

[IndyJeff]

S230, I think that is a bad idea. What one guys see's or hear's is not always what someone else see's or hear's. There are two sides to every story. If solinger wants to, anyone who wants to see this shooters website could PM solinger and he can direct you to the site that way. But to put it on a public forum, man I wouldn't think of doing it for liability purposes.


Just my 2 cents worth.

[Claire]

I agree with Indy. PMing Solinger is probably a better idea.

I occasionally read posts on a Swedish wedding forum. In the photographer section the brides can ask each other questions regarding photographers and such.They give samples of quoted prices and recommendations. I've seen some photographers get tons of good referals from brides, while others who have had the same photographer might not have the same impression.

Same goes for this situation. As Indy says;"What one guys see's or hear's is not always what someone else see's or hear's. There are two sides to every story."

[Sam]

I can't believe all of the attention this thread has received.

As far as posting the photographers information here I would rather not. If you live in the San Diego - Riverside area and are looking at a female photographer for your wedding send me a PM with her name and I'll give you a thumbs up or a thumbs down;).

My sister is still on vacation so I have not had a chance to look over the contract. The night of the wedding was not the time to discuss such things. I just picked up my camera and started shooting.

I do thank you all for your input on this. I know when my daughter gets married I will have a whole lot more to think about, some of it from this thread alone!

Another thing I learned is that I do not have the nerve to be a wedding photographer. I'd like to think that one day I could sell my services as a portrait photographer but I'd never attempt a Wedding. My hat’s off to any of you that do.

When My sister returns home I am going to advise her to hold the photographer to her contract and get what she has paid for. She is 25 so she is in the age group that most people start getting married. There were 10 people in the wedding party ages 25 - 30 and three of them were planning weddings. She will not be recommending this person and I will encourage her to share this information with the photographer. All in all I think it just breaks down to the fact that this person is an amateur and should not be in this type of work. It takes a certain type of person to deal with all of the stress and confusion that goes on during a wedding and still make the client happy.

[S230]

S230, I think that is a bad idea. What one guys see's or hear's is not always what someone else see's or hear's. There are two sides to every story. If solinger wants to, anyone who wants to see this shooters website could PM solinger and he can direct you to the site that way. But to put it on a public forum, man I wouldn't think of doing it for liability purposes.


Just my 2 cents worth.I am going to agree with you and Claire on this. :)

[S230]

I agree. It would lapse into a trashing tournament not of professional photographers but of wannabe wedding photographers who have an agenda. I've heard things about guys in my area which were completely untrue, and the stories were started by weekend warrior/lab monkeys who engaged in this sort of thing for sport.

If you think that my side of the story about my lawsuit sounded bad, you should hear the story as told by the photographers who goaded the B&G into suing me.

I was an axe-murderer.

No, I think this sort of thing would turn really ugly and unfair really fast.

Like Jeff said: there are two sides to every story.Good advice... I only heard of photographers "Shooting" their client's not "axing"... :)

bloo dog, you need to post more of your experiences. i already read them all and anxious to see new ones. :)

[alimatrixx]

I hate to side with the photographer here but I do. Her contract was for 300 images and that is what she took right?

Now for your sister's side, shame on the photographer for not explaining that 300 images meant 300 images total and not just from the wedding and reception. Also shame on her for not staying, even if it took extra money to get her to stay. Shame on her for asking for the travel pay.

Your sister should have gotten a better understanding of what was expected and delivered by the photographer. Also that the wedding and the reception were so far from each other.

The photographer should have made it very clear that when image number 300 was clicked, that was it, end of deal. Sounds to me like she did take advantage of the situation and maybe your sister and bro in law were a little nieve in thinking that all the before the wedding images didn't count towards the total.

Personally, I think you should just leave it alone. What can you do about it now? You think you may get a discount for your sister? The WP did what she was contracted to do...take 300 images. If anything, report to the Better Business Bureau and it will be filed as a complaint against the photographer in her BBB file. Altho she did nothing wrong, it doesn't seem as if she was upfront about the image count, when it started and when it would end.

What if she would have had 300 images even before the wedding day!!!



I completly dissagree. I am a student photographer. In my 4th year of study.

And I have never heard of that. Other photographers will know you can take 1000's of images and only one be good so that is not fair. Most say that they will stay however long and your final cost is when you have chosen your images etc!

Completly out of order! what a farse!

[cory1848]

I completly dissagree. I am a student photographer. In my 4th year of study.

And I have never heard of that. Other photographers will know you can take 1000's of images and only one be good so that is not fair. Most say that they will stay however long and your final cost is when you have chosen your images etc!

Completly out of order! what a farse!

No offense, however, in your 4 years of study, how many classes on Business? Stripping down the emotion involve and that its someones wedding day, bottom line this is a business transaction supported by a contract. If brought to court, only what is stated in that contract is what is going to hold up. This is why it is so important to get everything in writing. If the contract stated 300 clicks, then she met the contract. I would pursue whether or not it said the entire wedding coverage for those 300.

Now with that said...Does it make is morally or ethically right? Of course not. As others have said, its completely unprofessional and I can't imagine its helping her business for referrals...

[OdiN1701]

Well this is an old thread (I knew that as soon as I saw Tim say he wasn't a professional photographer)....

But anyway - horribly inappropriate of the photog. Completely unprofessional.

Most people would understand 300 photos to be 300 photos delivered out of whatever was taken. And being told specifically to get reception shots, that should have been done.

I have never heard of someone charging by the number of photos, strictly to the letter of hey I shot 300 shots and I'm done now. Most charge by the hour and offer general idea of xx shots per hour so that's what to expect to be able to proof, etc.

To leave like that, not offer an extension, etc. is horrible.

The contract should have been explained better by the photog I'm betting.

Regardless of the contract - if she was hired to cover a wedding start to finish, but only deliver 300 images - it is the PHOTOGRAPHER's responsability to limit themselves in order to provide the coverage requested (sister requested reception shots) so that they do not go over their limit before the events are done.

Overall charging for 300 clicks just seems like a stupid way to do business.

[letsmakeart]

Sounds like a scam to me, contract or not she clearly manipulated the other party and did not adhere to the expectations which were outlined when the contract was signed.

Noone would ever enter into legal relations with someone if they understood that they would be put into this situation. It's disgusting behaviour, and whilst I support photographers in making money and doing good business, to support this kind of behaviour is appalling.

It gives all of us as photographers a bad name.

And for all you lawyer wannabe's going on about how if it's in the contract it's the law, no, you are wrong. There is a lot more to contracts than what is on them, and as hinted at above, part of this is the intention to enter a legal relationship and having both parties clearly understand the contract. I'd put money on the fact that it could be easily proven that the photographer breached the contract - not only due to what isn't written (what qualifies as being a legally enforceable contract) but what is too.

[Karl Johnston]

Stories like this inspire me to offer the best, most professional and flexible services I can possibly muster. In the long run, and even the short run, a bad review will cripple your business more than it will to refund the money if the client is unhappy.

[jwilson]

I hear stories like this all the time on this forum and, quite frankly, it always just pi$$es me off! As a wedding photographer, I ALWAYS work to give the B&G more than they bargained for...it's called MARKETING. If they're happy, they let their sisters, cousins, friends, etc., know and then almost always you can pick up add'l work thru that. Personally, I hate it when WPs contract for a set amount of time. My pricing is based on pre-set packages, ie. pay 1 price and expect to get x amount of proofs, y amount of prints (various sizes), etc. And I always tell the bride that this is her special day, I am there for her typically from 2pm (for a wedding that starts around 4pm) thru the reception ceremonies (cutting of cake, bouquet toss, first dance, father-daughter dance, etc.). And then after all of that, I always locate the bride (also maid of honor and parents of bride) to let them know that I am ready to leave unless there is anything else they need. I've never had an unhappy experience and have also received fairly substantial tips (which I do discourage but when they insist what can you do?) for going above and beyond. Sure, it makes for a long day but in the end it's worth it if it increases your business. And BTW, I've never taken just 300 photos...it's rather arrogant to expect a reasonable amount of keepers from only 300 shots. My typical wedding is closer to 900-1000. From that, depending on the package they've pre-ordered, I pick the best x numbers for proofing ensuring that I have all the significant events covered (ie. pre-ceremony, formals, ceremony, reception, etc.). Again, not a single unhappy customer!!!!!