Shooting at 1.4 - Really hard or I just suck?

[greg_w]

I was at a birthday party for a 4 year old yesterday. We were at Dave and Busters (basically a restaurant/arcade). The light was really low, so even at ISO 1600 and shutter speed of 1/50, I wasn't able to get above 1.4. Is it reasonable to expect sharp-focused eyes with that scenario? I only got 1 in 10 that were salvageable, and none of them were sharp. What kind of keeper rate should I expect?

I have a 430EX flash, but the ceilings were too high for bouncing. I took a few flash shots with the pop-up flash, but they look like crummy flash shots (as you would expect).

How would you handle that situation?

[stathunter]

Low light is tricky. I have never really used a rebel --so I can't comment on how well is auto focuses---- but I will tell you that mastering low light photography is an art. I typically am a wedding shooter and do a lot of low light work-- not easy-- there are definitely a lot of bad shots to be had.

[S.Horton]

At 1/50, hand held, very few.......

In low light, AF will hunt, regardless of the body you're using.

If you really want to shoot in those conditions, I would recc. a 1DMKIII or 5D MKII.

[nicksan]

Yeah, 1/50 is too slow.
Also at f1.4, getting pics of kids would probably be an extreme challenge no?
Were they posed shots or were they moving?

Buy a diffuser of some kind that reflects light towards the subject when the ceiling is not an option.

I was at a birthday party for a 4 year old yesterday. We were at Dave and Busters (basically a restaurant/arcade). The light was really low, so even at ISO 1600 and shutter speed of 1/50, I wasn't able to get above 1.4. Is it reasonable to expect sharp-focused eyes with that scenario? I only got 1 in 10 that were salvageable, and none of them were sharp. What kind of keeper rate should I expect?

I have a 430EX flash, but the ceilings were too high for bouncing. I took a few flash shots with the pop-up flash, but they look like crummy flash shots (as you would expect).

How would you handle that situation?

[Grimes]

I was at a birthday party for a 4 year old yesterday. We were at Dave and Busters (basically a restaurant/arcade). The light was really low, so even at ISO 1600 and shutter speed of 1/50, I wasn't able to get above 1.4. Is it reasonable to expect sharp-focused eyes with that scenario? I only got 1 in 10 that were salvageable, and none of them were sharp. What kind of keeper rate should I expect?

I have a 430EX flash, but the ceilings were too high for bouncing. I took a few flash shots with the pop-up flash, but they look like crummy flash shots (as you would expect).

How would you handle that situation?


It's really hard. You can try to get more of a "head on" shot so that both eyes are in the same plane and plus keep a moderate distance to increase DOF. May help to do those things.

[Persephone]

Stand next to a wall and try to bounce from there? But I don't think D&B has white walls...hah. I second the call to get some kind of diffuser.

[cdifoto]

I was at a birthday party for a 4 year old yesterday. We were at Dave and Busters (basically a restaurant/arcade). The light was really low, so even at ISO 1600 and shutter speed of 1/50, I wasn't able to get above 1.4. Is it reasonable to expect sharp-focused eyes with that scenario?
Not if they're moving around.

I have a 430EX flash, but the ceilings were too high for bouncing.
I can't imagine an arcade having 100 foot high ceilings...

[skygod44]

Stand next to a wall and try to bounce from there? But I don't think D&B has white walls...hah. I second the call to get some kind of diffuser.

#1, as said by all above, low-light is tough, so don't knock yourself or your gear.

#2, if it's possible to carry a modest-sized white-card, you can try a portrait picture and bounce the flash off the card. Tricky, but you might be able to up the shutter-speed enough to raise the ISO and stop down your 50mm to, say, f/1.6~1.8 which could be enough.

[mathogre]

I was at a birthday party for a 4 year old yesterday. We were at Dave and Busters (basically a restaurant/arcade). The light was really low, so even at ISO 1600 and shutter speed of 1/50, I wasn't able to get above 1.4. Is it reasonable to expect sharp-focused eyes with that scenario? I only got 1 in 10 that were salvageable, and none of them were sharp. What kind of keeper rate should I expect?

I have a 430EX flash, but the ceilings were too high for bouncing. I took a few flash shots with the pop-up flash, but they look like crummy flash shots (as you would expect).

How would you handle that situation?

Understand I'm a complete amateur.

Given that, I'd say you have two options.

1. If it's your 4 y.o., do whatever you need to do to get photos. D&B - at least the one I've visited - is dark. Bouncing isn't an option as the ceiling is dark, as in "not highly reflective." If it's your kid and you can't get the perfect artsy photo, go for the photo that shows your kid and his/her friends; go direct versus bounced and step down the exposure or flash if needed. You only get one chance at it.

2. If you find yourself invited to a celebration at a potentially challenging venue, go there in advance and shoot until you can get it right. When comes the day of the celebration, you're ready.

[LONDON808]

wow d&b let you take photos the 1 here won't let u

[twalker294]

Keep in mind your depth of field at 1.4 is razor thin so in focus shots, especially with a moving subject, are quite difficult. It's likely that was your problem...

[tonylong]

With what you're trying to shoot, I'd say avoid f/1.4. Shoot at, say, f/5.6 and use a flash with some kind of modifyer -- a diffuser, or a bounce card. Shooting at f/1.4 is for specialty work, and will most likely fail at trying to get family shoots.

[René Damkot]

The light was really low, so even at ISO 1600 and shutter speed of 1/50, I wasn't able to get above 1.4. Is it reasonable to expect sharp-focused eyes with that scenario? I only got 1 in 10 that were salvageable, and none of them were sharp. What kind of keeper rate should I expect?

1 in 10 seems reasonable in that scenario, with that equipment and not much experience.
I'd prefer to use f/1.8 and 1/60 / ISO 3200.
Bit more DoF, and a bit less chance on camera shake.
I have a 430EX flash, but the ceilings were too high for bouncing. I took a few flash shots with the pop-up flash, but they look like crummy flash shots (as you would expect).

How would you handle that situation?

I'd be hesitant to use flash in a restaurant, in order not to annoy other people there.
However, even a shot with the built in flash can look okay, provided the flash is only used as fill. (Drag the shutter!)

On a side note: A 430EX can light up a pretty big hall at ISO 1600 / wide open lens ;)
Have a look in this thread: Link (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=451770&highlight=flash). (Yeah, I know it's about a 580EX, simply subtract about a stop for the 430)

If the ceiling is dark, or even black, you can still bounce the flash, only it will require an additional few stops of power. Beware of color casts though.

Here is a good read on natural looking flash: Link (http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/1-natural-looking-flash/)

Here is a screenshot of a file (SooC), with flash being the main lighting (all the more or less "neutral" light is flash, blue = club lighting).
Flash was a 580 EX, filtered with a CTO gel to match ambient (which looses you about a stop of light)
Exif would be: 1/125s, f/2.8, ISO 2500, manual flash at about half power (give or take 1/3 stop)

Flash was bounced high of a wall on the right to get a more even lighting from front to back. The wall I bounced off is featuring a similar holes pattern like the wall you see in the far left & back. "Holed" part of the wall is gray (concrete), rest of the wall is black ribs, similar to where the clock in the top right is hanging... Not too much too bounce off. You get the idea I think ;)

http://img.skitch.com/20090406-8yruebh45g129cg9qekf3r84im.jpg

Bit underexposed I know, but I wanted the flash as fill. The club lighting was pretty erratic, and some lights went out as I pressed the shutter ;)

[EcoRick]

I've taken my fair share of birthday party shots and you probably had the toughest in terms of lighting. At 1.4, it hard to get an entire birthday cake in focus, let alone a bunch of kids moving. I think the best you can hope for is a few good shots when the kids are sitiing or not moving.

Regarding flash, I wouldn't be too worried about shooting with one. Every party I've gone to there are always people with P&S cameras with the flash firing away. In some cases, this being one of them, you may have been better off with a flash. I rarely use one, but there are a few time I wish I would have.

[greg_w]

Great advice everybody. Thanks! I'm going to add a diffuser to my arsenal. Maybe I'll upgrade my index card bouncer too :)

A 430EX can light up a pretty big hall

Thanks for the link and the example. I have a new appreciation for the power of my Speedlite!

I think the best you can hope for is a few good shots when the kids are sitiing or not moving.

Yup, that's exactly what I ended up with.

[egordon99]

I was at a birthday party for a 4 year old yesterday. We were at Dave and Busters (basically a restaurant/arcade).

I have a 430EX flash, but the ceilings were too high for bouncing.

Uh oh! I'm shooting a Bar Mitzvah "reception" at a Dave and Buster's at the end of the month. I've never been to one, but me no likey high ceilings :(

Shooting at f/2, ISO800 allows your flash to bounce quite a bit more than you'd expect. Basically, the more you open your aperture, up your ISO, the farther your flash light goes. So if it's insanely high, f/1.4 and ISO1600 will be able to work in all but the highest ceilings.

[Pmolan]

Can you turn on the AF asist beam of the 430 EX with the flash off?

[superstes]

Can you turn on the AF asist beam of the 430 EX with the flash off?


Yes

Just turn your custom function to flash does not fire.

[timbop]

Absolutely do not waste your time shooting without flash. The technique needed, as well as reliance on unpredictable ambient light will net too few keepers. Get a good diffuser - I use gary fong lightsphere or joe demb flip-it. All of the shots below were shot in a ridiculously dark restaraunt with 15 foot high celings. I used my lightsphere, which does waste power, but I really like it's reliability and automatic nature.
http://www.goprices.net/kathy60

[neilwood32]

I would just bounce the flash - even with fairly dark ceilings it will work. Just make sure you have an index card or similar for some fill and it will work a treat.

[egordon99]

So I shot the Dave and Buster's "reception" on Saturday. I was pretty much "stuck" using my two fast primes at f/2, ISO400 for the party room (slightly lower ceilings) and f/2 ISO800 for the main room (WITH my 580EXII firing probably at full power :( )

What really sucked was when I wanted to get W-I-D-E shots, I had to go to ISO3200 with my 10-20..... :confused: (again, WITH my 580)

Regardless, the shots did seem to capture the "mood" of the room pretty well, and I'm sure the client isn't going to want a 20x30 of their "new" man playing an arcade game :lol:

Maybe I should add a "high ceiling" surcharge?

Uh oh! I'm shooting a Bar Mitzvah "reception" at a Dave and Buster's at the end of the month. I've never been to one, but me no likey high ceilings :(

Shooting at f/2, ISO800 allows your flash to bounce quite a bit more than you'd expect. Basically, the more you open your aperture, up your ISO, the farther your flash light goes. So if it's insanely high, f/1.4 and ISO1600 will be able to work in all but the highest ceilings.

[PhotosGuy]

but the ceilings were too high for bouncing. Curtis's excellent thread: No more excuses about high ceilings and bounced flash (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=451770)

[joove]

Also, the bouncing can be done off of anything, not just the ceiling. Just like emergency exits, the closest bounce surface may be behind you :-).

If you have really short ceilings, bouncing off the ceiling can also end up putting a hot-spot on the ceiling (if it is in the frame) so back/side bounce ends up being best (but wastes a lot of power which drains the flash batteries quick).

[blueM]

I checked the DOF for a crop camera, 50mm lens @ 1.4

Focusing at 10 ft the DOF is 7 inches
Focusing at 5 ft the DOF drops to 2 inches.

May be part of the problem, especially in a dark room. Another vote for flash here