Minimum wages?

[KennyG]

Have you stopped to work out what you need to charge to earn minimum wages? Take into account the cost of travelling to an event, value of equipment written down over two years and divided by the number of events in a year. Add to that whatever your country has for minimum wage per hour and the average number of hours for an event. Add 10% for sundries, like food and insurance etc. It will come to a surprisingly high number.

If you work on sales of prints, how many prints will you have to sell to break even? Can you sell enough to get into profit? Simple math, but it could bring you down to earth with a nasty bump. Some people think they are doing well with their sales because it isn't really a means of income for them, just a hobby and if they make a loss, so what, it is only fun after all. Others need their dollars/pounds to put bread on the table and know all about profit and loss. Remember, in my example, breaking even only gives you minimum wage and would you work for that?

I was going to name and shame some of our fellows here with what they are charging per print for certain events. You would be shocked, they charge less than it costs to have them lab printed, never mind adding in any other costs. I have checked a few of the websites and I was, well, stunned. When the difference is a factor of 20, that is they are charging one twentieth of the going rate, it becomes difficult to justify your price to the customer, even taking quality and talent into account.

For my work I don't have a major problem as the amateurs can't get the same access as I can, so they can't get the same types of shot. What is of concern though, is that they start to set customer's levels of expectation for pricing and every sale becomes a discussion about price instead of the quality of work.

I hope those that are charging bargain basement prices read this and re-think what they are doing. If you have talent then your work is worth the going rate. If you have to charge less to sell it, draw your own conclusions.

[chucksberg]

Kenny, Your photographs are excellent on your website.
It's all about value, some people want cheap, some people want quality. I didn't see prices listed on your website so I can't compare.
You stated..."every sale becomes a discussion about price instead of the quality of work."

If you have to justify the price to sell it, draw your own conclusions.

It's just a hobby for most of us, not a profit and loss statement.

[IndyJeff]

I hope those that are charging bargain basement prices read this and re-think what they are doing. If you have talent then your work is worth the going rate. If you have to charge less to sell it, draw your own conclusions.

I just lost a league Monday that I did action shots of last year. My contact said they have someone who is giving them 20% of the profits and is selling way below what I can afford to.
His prices were quoted as:
4x6.....1.00
5x7.....2.50
8x10...6.00

I am wondering if it was the same yahoo I ran into at a football league last fall. I had an arrangement with one of the board members for 1 1/2 months before I went there. Another board member made a deal with this yahoo. His prices were very similar to the above. Oh well, if mom doesn't mind soft shots, no recognizable face, the far be it from me to tell her what to buy. Heck, she should just get her point and shoot and shoot from the stands.

No mention of anything bigger. I have an idea that he is printing them at home and hand delivering.
Honestly, I am about ready to throw in the towel. Too many guys with a camera and no business sense.

[reidr]

Yeah, I can see it now....And which one is your son??? Oh, the third from the left, partially behind the tackle....I see. Not really.
It is hard to run a business. You stand alone most of the time, unless you have hard working employees working with you, until the time when you have to let them go, because of the slow work, or losing accounts to someone who says that they can do it cheaper without the quality. I have seen the web sites that offer x number of shots for x amount, and extremely low amounts they are. Ok, I have vented....no more towel throwing....good photographers are hard to find :)

[DocFrankenstein]

If I shoot 10 weddings a year... with a drebel + kit lens and sigma 70-200... no backups... nothing...

The least I'd shoot a wedding for is:

600 bucks :confused:

Do you think anybody would want to pay me 600 bucks for a wedding?

[Tom W]

I just lost a league Monday that I did action shots of last year. My contact said they have someone who is giving them 20% of the profits and is selling way below what I can afford to.
His prices were quoted as:
4x6.....1.00
5x7.....2.50
8x10...6.00

I am wondering if it was the same yahoo I ran into at a football league last fall. I had an arrangement with one of the board members for 1 1/2 months before I went there. Another board member made a deal with this yahoo. His prices were very similar to the above. Oh well, if mom doesn't mind soft shots, no recognizable face, the far be it from me to tell her what to buy. Heck, she should just get her point and shoot and shoot from the stands.

No mention of anything bigger. I have an idea that he is printing them at home and hand delivering.
Honestly, I am about ready to throw in the towel. Too many guys with a camera and no business sense.

If he's giving them 20% of the "profits", then he is working for free - or less. When he adds up the cost of ink, paper, mileage, and equipment, he's already losing money. Not to mention the value of his time. I can't speak for everyone, but my time is worth whatever the highest bidding employer is willing to pay me. Otherwise, its not a business venture but a labor of love.

[IndyJeff]

Tom if that guy sells lots of prints he will probably still make minimum wage, circa 1965!!!!

I didn't push the issue with the league rep, nor did I try to bash what this guy is doing. I am pretty sure it is the same yahoo I ran into last year. After seeing what he can do I have no doubts that what he will deliever will not be the quality the parents were familiar with from me.

Plus it will be great to see what parents do in a couple of years when their prints start fading and losing the color value due to cheap ink. I will get that league back, I have no doubts about that. In fact, I won't be surprised to have them call me later this spring to come out and shoot.
If, and when they do call, I will ask for a meeting with the board. I will have a contract ready asking that they use me, and only me for action shots for a period of 2 or 3 years. If they have parents complaining about the quality of this guy's stuff, I have no doubts that they will jump at the chance to get me back and without any kickback.

[PhotosGuy]

I will have a contract ready asking that they use me, and only me for action shots for a period of 2 or 3 years. If it was me, I'd let the dufus shoot... and raise my prices. Having seen your work, how can he possibly compete? ;-)

[Jon, The Elder]

Yup- I've got a pretty good niche market going and I find that there is still a never ending PR part of the business.
You can be a hero one day and a bum the next.

They can't seem to understand that it is not the PRINT they pay for - it is that split second when little Johnny caught the ball !! and you got it captured.
It's that instant recorded in a clear crisp image that they or anyone else DIDN'T get.

Had a few horses die last year - you should hear them bemoan the fact that they didn't have me do work for them. Some learn and some don't.

[PhotosGuy]

setiprime - about that coffee... ;-)

[CappuccinoDavid]

So what do we do??? just grin and bare it. This is why I stop shooting while back. In the town I was in they just wanted cheap prints. And you know they could have been making that much money even using cheap film and paper. But now everthing is Dig. So I guess I'll try again and see what it will bring.

[Moments]

AAH a topic that is close to the heart. Having to deal with competion is a part of buisness. I have found that in the burbs of NYC, all of us that have real studios charge about the same. I have found the undercutting to come from photographers that are as we say "weekend warriors". They have day jobs, and the thought of making an extra few hundred bucks on a Sat is more than they can ask for. They need to know how they will beakdown the buisness by charging well below the average for thier area. If the average goes down it will be hard to raise it. I have seen it happen in the commercial photography buisness with young hungry photographers as far as day rates.

As far as giving a percent to a group as a kick, I only do fundraisers for churches, and 20% is normal, as are my print and package prices normally priced.

[Croasdail]

Pardon my ignorance but for club sporting events like AAU and AYSO, is it traditional for these organizations to give esclusive contracts rights for photography. It would only seem to be wise to let the parents have a choice and let them decide the price versus quality of work question. I am sure too many people selling would delute the market worth, but as descibed above, you would think market forces would drive the hacks out. Just curious.