"P" mode

[Columbus Photo]

I guess since I never use it or think of using it why does it exist? Isn't it basically a creative mode? Just curious what your opinions on it are!:confused:

[smittymike19]

the p says puh, the p says puh, every letter makes a sound, the p says puh!

[robertwgross]

I guess since I never use it or think of using it why does it exist? Isn't it basically a creative mode? Just curious what your opinions on it are!:confused:

Yes, it is sort of a creative mode. The user is presented with at least one exposure solution, but by dialing the front dial on many cameras, different solutions are shown. That way, the user can take his pick for depth of field control.

I use P mode about 90% of the time for normal subjects.

---Bob Gross---

[smittymike19]

what advantage is there for p mode over A mode? sorry, i just spent teh last 4 hours with my 2 year old watching the letterfactory video...:)

[Icecamp]

P mode is like the green square, only it "unlocks" all of the features of the camera. You can use different focusing modes, different metering modes, fill flash, exposure compensation, exposure shift etc. etc.

[Columbus Photo]

So basically it sets the exposure "properly" each time..I can see where it would be faster than adjusting the camera for each lighting situation constantly.

[thomasrhee]

It's basically an "advanced" point & shoot mode. I rarely use it. My wife uses this mode sometimes if she wants to just take some snapshots.

[Steven M. Anthony]

I use P-mode a lot. You get a good exposure if you are grabbing a quick, impromptu shot. You can also adjust the exposure to a specific shutter speed, or a specific depth of field easily. The one pain is that after you take the shot (or even if you let up on the shutter button), any exposure adjustments (from the original settings it picks) go away and you have to re-set them. When I know I'm going for a different set-up for several shots, I'll switch to Manual mode.

[PacAce]

It's basically an "advanced" point & shoot mode. I rarely use it. My wife uses this mode sometimes if she wants to just take some snapshots.
I suppose you use the "M" mode and the Sunny-16 rule all the time, even indoors when shooting available light? :confused:

[robertwgross]

what advantage is there for p mode over A mode?

The user is presented with at least one exposure solution, but by dialing the front dial on many cameras, different solutions (combinations of shutter and aperture) are shown. That way, the user can take his pick for depth of field control, or even motion blur.

With Av mode, the aperture is generally chosen by the user, and the camera sets the shutter.

---Bob Gross---

[2goldens]

I use the P mode for just about all my shots. I like the flexibility it offers when I am photographing a subject. It also won’t let the internal flash pop up when you don’t want it to. There are times when you don’t want that flash to pop up and if you just use the auto mode the camera may want the flash for the photo. With the digital you can take as many photographs that you like and don’t have to worry about developing costs
I mostly use my 420EX flash. I don't like the flash that is on my Rebel. If you don't have an external flash you should think about adding one. It will be a great addition to you camera.

Have Fun

Anthony

[thomasrhee]

I'm not sure what the sarcastic response is all about but to answer your question... No, I tend to use Av mode and sometimes Tv mode. Hardly use M mode, unless on the rare occassion I want to override the camera's meter. The reason I don't use P mode is because I like to be able to control the either the aperture OR the shutter speed and I find it just as fast to use versus just using P mode. Nothing wrong with using P mode, it's just that I prefer not to because it doesn't offer me any advantages.



I suppose you use the "M" mode and the Sunny-16 rule all the time, even indoors when shooting available light? :confused:

[PacAce]

I'm not sure what the sarcastic response is all about but to answer your question... No, I tend to use Av mode and sometimes Tv mode. Hardly use M mode, unless on the rare occassion I want to override the camera's meter. The reason I don't use P mode is because I like to be able to control the either the aperture OR the shutter speed and I find it just as fast to use versus just using P mode. Nothing wrong with using P mode, it's just that I prefer not to because it doesn't offer me any advantages.
Well, just in case you didn't know, Av and Tv are just "basically an "advanced" point & shoot modes", too. You set the aperure or shutter speed once and then forget about it. The camera does the rest, just like the P mode. :rolleyes:

[exposingmyself]

i like p mode ;)

[smittymike19]

The user is presented with at least one exposure solution, but by dialing the front dial on many cameras, different solutions (combinations of shutter and aperture) are shown. That way, the user can take his pick for depth of field control, or even motion blur.

With Av mode, the aperture is generally chosen by the user, and the camera sets the shutter.

---Bob Gross---

still not understanding. if i am in A mode and i ma at f1.8 i dial the dial and it changes the aperture to a higher number. imediately the t value goes up. so i am changing both parameters at the same time (exposure). in p mode when i roll the wheel both parameters change. If i am looking for dof or motion blur the are both qccomplishable in a mode, as when i roll my wheel, i get different values for both p and a mode. p, a and t mode are kinda senseless. If i am iny one of these 3 modes, turning the wheel does the same thing, changes BOTH values. so if i wanted to get motion blur (supposedly a t mode function), i would just turn the wheel in a mode and the T value that i wanted could be set indirectly by the aperture value....really it doesnt make sense whatsoever to have 3 sepearte modes that all change both parameters. if you closed your eyes and i changed the mode to one of these 3 modes, you really wouldnt be able to tell what mode were in because when you turn the dial both values change....make sense?:D

[Steven M. Anthony]

It just comes down to how you approach your shots--as all 3 modes (P, Tv & Av) all do the same thing. If you "think" in terms of aperture, you'll probably like Av mode. If you think in terms of shutter speed, you'll probably like Tv mode. My thinking changes from situation to situation so P-mode works for me. Sometimes I look in the view finder and think--"oh, I need more or less DoF than that"... or "I need a quicker shutter speed." P-mode lets me think either way without switching from one mode to another.

[smittymike19]

It just comes down to how you approach your shots--as all 3 modes (P, Tv & Av) all do the same thing. If you "think" in terms of aperture, you'll probably like Av mode. If you think in terms of shutter speed, you'll probably like Tv mode. My thinking changes from situation to situation so P-mode works for me. Sometimes I look in the view finder and think--"oh, I need more or less DoF than that"... or "I need a quicker shutter speed." P-mode lets me think either way without switching from one mode to another.

lets pretend you have no idea what t and a mode are. if you just spin the wheel, youll get any a or any t value you need, same for p mode. lets say i want 1/30th of a second and i am in a mode, how do i get 1/30th of a second? i spin the wheel, and voila there it is. If i am in t mode and i want 1.8 aperture what do i do? i spin the wheel and voila there it is 1.8. and in p mode you have direct control over neither specifically, just both at the same time. so it doesnt make senese to have all 3 functions doing the same thing, it just makes you think that you have more control, when you really dont.;)

[robertwgross]

lets pretend you have no idea what t and a mode are. if you just spin the wheel, youll get any a or any t value you need, same for p mode. lets say i want 1/30th of a second and i am in a mode, how do i get 1/30th of a second? i spin the wheel, and voila there it is. If i am in t mode and i want 1.8 aperture what do i do? i spin the wheel and voila there it is 1.8. and in p mode you have direct control over neither specifically, just both at the same time. so it doesnt make senese to have all 3 functions doing the same thing, it just makes you think that you have more control, when you really dont.;)

Well, it sounds like you have it all figured out. Why don't you take a black marker and blacken out the P mode mark? Then it will be perfect for you.

Many, many moons ago, SLR cameras were very limited. Some of the early models had automatic exposure by only one single mode, Av. The user would set the aperture, and the camera would set up the shutter. Some users got trained to think that way.

A different manufacturer had automatic exposure rather differently, by only Tv mode. The user would set the shutter, and then the camera would set up the aperture. Some users (including me) got trained to think that way.

Then, as the competition got stiffer, some manufacturers figured out how to make the camera think either way, so you got Av and TV in the same camera. Once that was happening, P mode kind of sprang from there. Basically, they are all automatic exposure modes, but it just depends on how you want to think about settings. Then, if you don't want to think at all, there is the Green Box.

---Bob Gross---

[PacAce]

lets pretend you have no idea what t and a mode are. if you just spin the wheel, youll get any a or any t value you need, same for p mode. lets say i want 1/30th of a second and i am in a mode, how do i get 1/30th of a second? i spin the wheel, and voila there it is. If i am in t mode and i want 1.8 aperture what do i do? i spin the wheel and voila there it is 1.8. and in p mode you have direct control over neither specifically, just both at the same time. so it doesnt make senese to have all 3 functions doing the same thing, it just makes you think that you have more control, when you really dont.;)
Actually, it has more to do with history than anything else. Years ago the so called automatic cameras could be used in manual mode or shutter priority mode. And then there were others that could be used in manual or aperture priority mode. And then, there were camera that were all auto with no manual overrides whatsoever. Then camera like the Canon A-1 came about which incorporated all 4 modes so satisfy photographers used to any particular type of cameras previously made.

That's the same with the different types of metering modes we have now. The center-weighted average metering is a hold over from the bygone days. Canon included it because there are a lot of old time photographer who are very comfortable with using it because they understand how it works. A new comer using nothing but the evaluative metering mode might wonder why CWA metering was even included in the first place since they might see it as being redundant.

[Edit] Oops. Looks like I duplicated some of Bob's response. Great minds must really think alike. :mrgreen:

[Overexposed]

In the "P" mode you may change both the f-stop and shutter speed. To shoot in raw you must use one of the creative modes, and "P" is the auto setting of the creative modes. Check the menu in both “A” and “P” modes and you’ll see what “P” has to offer.

[smittymike19]

Well, it sounds like you have it all figured out. Why don't you take a black marker and blacken out the P mode mark? Then it will be perfect for you.

Many, many moons ago, SLR cameras were very limited. Some of the early models had automatic exposure by only one single mode, Av. The user would set the aperture, and the camera would set up the shutter. Some users got trained to think that way.

A different manufacturer had automatic exposure rather differently, by only Tv mode. The user would set the shutter, and then the camera would set up the aperture. Some users (including me) got trained to think that way.

Then, as the competition got stiffer, some manufacturers figured out how to make the camera think either way, so you got Av and TV in the same camera. Once that was happening, P mode kind of sprang from there. Basically, they are all automatic exposure modes, but it just depends on how you want to think about settings. Then, if you don't want to think at all, there is the Green Box.

---Bob Gross---

the funny thing is i was going to suggest soemthing like this. i knew it had to be a marketing thing. ok well i feel like i learned something for the day, i cna go to sleep now. thanks. tomorrow we will discuss metering...lol

[SnJPhoto]

Hmmm....I have to get one of those cameras with "T" and "A" modes....

[smittymike19]

Hmmm....I have to get one of those cameras with "T" and "A" modes....
thats all charlesu (look at his posts) :lol: uses...lol

[ScottE]

Mostly I use Av mode, sometimes M and occasionally Tv.

If I am not sure what to do and think there is a chance the camera might be smarter than me I try P.

Scott

[slin100]

I used to use P mode a lot in my early days with a Canon A-1, but I seldom, if ever, use P mode any more. My favorite automatic mode is now Av. This allows me to choose the DOF, and the camera chooses the shutter speed. I think all the focus problems reported for the 10D early on scared me enough that I wanted to be sure I was controlling DOF on my terms.

P mode is designed to use a "safe" shutterspeed and aperture combination with a normal lens, but this combination may not be appropriate with other focal lengths. If you're using a telephoto lens, you'd probably want to use faster shutter speeds to counteract camera shake. Sure, you can adjust by program shifting, but that becomes one extra step to do before taking a picture. It would have been nice if the camera had different "programs" for various focal lengths.

[Bodog]

There is a difference that you may not have noticed. In AV mode, try using exposure compensation. You'll notice that the aperture you have set will remain constant, while the shutter speed will change as you adjust the compensation. In TV mode, just the opposite will happen, the shutter speed you have set will remain constant, while the aperture changes. In P mode, either one or both may change. So, if you want to fully control the aperture, chose AV mode and if you want to fully control shutter speed, choose TV. P mode doesn't allow full control of either.

[thomasrhee]

The DIFFERENCE is that in P mode, the camera selects BOTH shutter and aperture values.
Sure, you can go ahead and change these values with a program shift if you're not happy with them. I'd just rather select either the aperture OR the shutter speed ahead of time depending on whether the aperture value is more important to the shot or whether the shutter speed is more important.

If I was shooting in P mode, and I have to do a program shift because I wanted slightly more DOF, what single advantage did I gain by shooting in P mode versus Av mode?

Using any one of the modes on the camera is neither wrong or right. Just depends on one's shooting style and the amount of control they want over the shot. If P mode works for you, more power to you. If nothing but M mode satisfies, again more power to you. If you use every single mode on the camera equally, great. That's why Canon offers us so many modes to satisfy a vast majority of photographers.

So having said all that, because I state "I rarely use P mode", you make a sarcastic remark that I'm some twit who exclusively uses M mode and the sunny 16 rule, even indoors?

Well, just in case you didn't know, Av and Tv are just "basically an "advanced" point & shoot modes", too. You set the aperure or shutter speed once and then forget about it. The camera does the rest, just like the P mode. :rolleyes:

[slin100]

OT, but I've always felt that the rolling-eyes :rolleyes: doesn't have a place in a quality forum. Of course, on the Internet you really need to have a somewhat thick skin, but it just seems quite antagonistic.

Anyway, I certainly don't begrudge anyone's use of P mode, although I was a bit surprised to see the names of certain people who use it. :)

[dave_bass5]

Also and correct me if im wrong but if you use flash in P mode the speed is set to 1/60

Dave.

[chris clements]

Diversity rules: I was surprised to find that "P" isn't everyone's most-used mode.
It guarantees a successful shot if your brain is on green square, but allows easy adjustment of the variables should a creative thought suddenly download (not very often in my case).

[PacAce]

The DIFFERENCE is that in P mode, the camera selects BOTH shutter and aperture values.
Sure, you can go ahead and change these values with a program shift if you're not happy with them. I'd just rather select either the aperture OR the shutter speed ahead of time depending on whether the aperture value is more important to the shot or whether the shutter speed is more important.

If I was shooting in P mode, and I have to do a program shift because I wanted slightly more DOF, what single advantage did I gain by shooting in P mode versus Av mode?

Using any one of the modes on the camera is neither wrong or right. Just depends on one's shooting style and the amount of control they want over the shot. If P mode works for you, more power to you. If nothing but M mode satisfies, again more power to you. If you use every single mode on the camera equally, great. That's why Canon offers us so many modes to satisfy a vast majority of photographers.

So having said all that, because I state "I rarely use P mode", you make a sarcastic remark that I'm some twit who exclusively uses M mode and the sunny 16 rule, even indoors?
No, that statement alone was not what I was reacting to. I have no qualms about anybody using any mode in their camera. That's why they're there, to be used if that mode will help you take better pictures than without it. What I do have qualms about is people categorizing certain modes as P&S modes or "dummy modes" or anything that implies something other than "I have full control of my camera". If you really think about it, Av and Tv modes, and yes, even the M mode, can all be classifies as "advanced P&S" modes. It is how much thought a person puts into the shots before pressing the shutter button when using any mode that determines if that mode was used in the so called "advanced P&S" mode or not.

[smittymike19]

There is a difference that you may not have noticed. In AV mode, try using exposure compensation. You'll notice that the aperture you have set will remain constant, while the shutter speed will change as you adjust the compensation. In TV mode, just the opposite will happen, the shutter speed you have set will remain constant, while the aperture changes. In P mode, either one or both may change. So, if you want to fully control the aperture, chose AV mode and if you want to fully control shutter speed, choose TV. P mode doesn't allow full control of either.

very good observation, soemthing i didnt think about:)

[Jon]

Also, if you leave the camera set to "P" mode, if you pull it out in a hurry for that once-in-a-lifetime shot, you're more likely to get a correct exposure than if you're set to Tv or Av (unless you activated Safety Shift, CF 16 on the 20D) and aren't in the same conditions you were the last time you used the camera (including if you forgot to reset ISO from 3200 to your normal 100 ;{)# )

[jfrancho]

I put the car in P mode, and my pictures didn't come out any better.

[Jon]

I put the car in P mode, and my pictures didn't come out any better.

You need to stop the engine too, or the vibration will make the pictures blurry.

[eosster]

Who care's what mode people uses to take images, if images comes out the way YOU expect it.

[Steven M. Anthony]

lets pretend you have no idea what t and a mode are. if you just spin the wheel, youll get any a or any t value you need, same for p mode. lets say i want 1/30th of a second and i am in a mode, how do i get 1/30th of a second? i spin the wheel, and voila there it is. If i am in t mode and i want 1.8 aperture what do i do? i spin the wheel and voila there it is 1.8. and in p mode you have direct control over neither specifically, just both at the same time. so it doesnt make senese to have all 3 functions doing the same thing, it just makes you think that you have more control, when you really dont.;)

If I could pretend I don't know something, that would work great!

[blue_max]

As I rarely use it, I wouldn't mind it if anyone took the 'P'. :D

On my G5, I used nothing but P because it was so slow anyway. You had to focus and lock and then shoot. No time for anything like adjusting the settings.

On the 10d I find aperture control the most useful. I set it for the effect I am after and see if the speed will cause any problems and adjust as required. I don' t yet know it well enough to judge when I would need to alter the exposure (I must get to grips with the exposure lock), so don't often venture to manual.

All said and done, I think all options are valid in the right hands. I always remember the ad for Olympus and David Bailey with the 'trip'. He was able to show what great shots could be gotten by such mundane equipment.

In fact a good photographer will take better pictures than a ham-fisted ameteur with the most exotic equipment. I aspire to be the former.

Graham

[smittymike19]

Who care's what mode people uses to take images, if images comes out the way YOU expect it.

this wasnt intended to be an opinion war on the different modes. iwas trying to figure out whta the real differences between them were and why they are on the camera.
2 answers:
1. marketing
2.using the exposure compenstaion buttons in each mode will not affetc the parameter you are after.

really thats it.

[eosster]

I didn't mean to offend anyone, it seems that people are taking the message too serisouly.

[Titus213]

I won't say correct me if I'm wrong because I alread know someone will but....when the camera powers on in P mode the settings for shutter and aperature are determined when the release is depressed half way. Tv and Av revert to the last used setting for the mode. This could be big if I was taking still lifes at 10 second exposures last and did not reset to an appropriate shutter value. I think of the P mode on my 300D as Canon's effort to idiot proof my photography experience while giving me the sense of some control. Unfortunately I have been able to 'outsmart' Canon on many occasions. I often forget to move the dial back to P when I've finished shooting in M or Tv. And then there was that whole series of sunlit landscapes I just shot at ISO 1600.........you see, as a former film shooter, I still find it difficult to remember that I can actually change the ISO mid roll. All of life is a learning curve. Some of us are just hauling extra baggage.

[blue_max]

Hey Dave, those that do the most, make the most mistakes.

Those that know the most, realist how much there is to know.

Those that post the most, have nothing better to do... Doh!

Graham

[CyberDyneSystems]

...Those that post the most, have nothing better to do... Doh!

Graham

HEY!

They could be chained to there desk on a Sunny day and would much rather discuss what they wish they were doing then go over some tired old work related paperwork... :lol: :lol:

[jfrancho]

HEY!

They could be chained to there desk on a Sunny day and would much rather discuss what they wish they were doing then go over some tired old work related paperwork... :lol: :lol:EXACTLY! Someone please tell me why the very same people that determined the functionality and requirements for a app still need documentation....must be thay can't remember what they asked for.

[smittymike19]

HEY!

They could be chained to there desk on a Sunny day and would much rather discuss what they wish they were doing then go over some tired old work related paperwork... :lol: :lol:
man i wish i was outside hanging out with charlesU...:)

[Tom W]

HEY!

They could be chained to there desk on a Sunny day and would much rather discuss what they wish they were doing then go over some tired old work related paperwork... :lol: :lol:

Worse than that, it could be a "sunny-16" day. :)

[jeffherald]

I use the "P" mode most of the time because most of the time I am in "point & shoot mode", at kid events and birthday parties and such. I find it more useful than the "green square" because I will make a quick modification to the automatically acquired setting by adjusting the exposure with the wheel on the back (20D). I did this with my Elan 7e and it has always worked out for me. I will frequently overexpose by a little bit; I find it brightens up my subject most of the time. When I am taking lots of photos quickly, I don't want to have to worry about the settings being wrong. Even though this is a mundane use of such a capable camera, I like that it produces better pictures than a regular point & shoot camera. I use the "Tv", "Av", and "M" modes when I have time to take creative photos. I am just an amateur enthusiast, not a pro so take it for what it's worth.

[Titus213]

HEY!

They could be chained to there desk on a Sunny day and would much rather discuss what they wish they were doing then go over some tired old work related paperwork... :lol: :lol:

Or they could be chained to a computer trying to make sure everyone stays civil on the site....:lol:

[blue_max]

Wonder why one is "chained" to a desk? Is a footballer chained to the pitch (not very practical)?

Any road, I was referring to my good self in that comment! :D I find that the threat of repossession is enough to keep me at my desk!!!

Graham

[Steven M. Anthony]

this wasnt intended to be an opinion war on the different modes. iwas trying to figure out whta the real differences between them were and why they are on the camera.
2 answers:
1. marketing
2.using the exposure compenstaion buttons in each mode will not affetc the parameter you are after.

really thats it.

I think as pointed out earlier, there really are no big differences between the 3--just what dial does what. I see the choice as just letting people decide which they like best. It is funny to see each listed on a "features" list. But it's better than when car companies list "rear view mirror" or AM/FM radio!

[CyberDyneSystems]

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Steven Anthony... :shock: :lol: ;)

I too used to use "P" mode quite a lot,. and do still at times,. given that we stil can "roll" the exposure one way or the other as well as still dial in exposure comp.. I find it as flexible as TV and AV.... however as I got more used to telling the camera what I wanted first,. rather than starting with the Camera's suggestion.. I found I used "P" less and less...

It ends up that using AV or Tv makes the adjustability a little faster once I got used to it.

But in the end,. it's just three ways of acheiving the same goal,. and the interface preference is just a matter of taste. And "P" still offers a slightly better "safety net" for those that are learning or are just in a rush.

//still chained @ 7:00pm Eastern...

[Tapeman]

I mostly use the P mode when I give my camera to someone else to take photo(s)

[Noni]

Some of you think one way, some think another.

I think...that this is a great thread. I was given my Rebel (film) without the books from my father...he told me "it's got too many buttons...you can have it!!" and I had no idea what some of those buttons/markers meant.

As I am going to soon be switching to the Drebel 300, I've been learning so very much about the camera I have currently, and the one I am soon to be getting. Reading this thread encouraged me to get outside for several hours today, and play around and see what I could see about the different buttons...I tried P, Tv, AV, and others (on the film), and just had fun. The stuff is off at the developers right now, so I have no idea what I learned, other than I didn't break anything, and that correct DoF and composition is harder than I thought...

Thanks for "inspiring" me to learn more about what I've got, and what I will be getting, and to get out there and experiment.

Best-
Noni

[smittymike19]

Some of you think one way, some think another.

I think...that this is a great thread. I was given my Rebel (film) without the books from my father...he told me "it's got too many buttons...you can have it!!" and I had no idea what some of those buttons/markers meant.

As I am going to soon be switching to the Drebel 300, I've been learning so very much about the camera I have currently, and the one I am soon to be getting. Reading this thread encouraged me to get outside for several hours today, and play around and see what I could see about the different buttons...I tried P, Tv, AV, and others (on the film), and just had fun. The stuff is off at the developers right now, so I have no idea what I learned, other than I didn't break anything, and that correct DoF and composition is harder than I thought...

Thanks for "inspiring" me to learn more about what I've got, and what I will be getting, and to get out there and experiment.

Best-
Noni

hey what the heck are you doing learning hher?? cant you see some of us are trying to ahve an argument? lol... really this forum is a fantastic way to learn. just listening to these guys "argue" is a great way to learn. i have learned SOOOO much this past month since getting my drebel.. if you think you learned alot tonight, wait till you go digitl. that way you can shoot until you carpel tunnel in your wrists, the always have the exif info (all the setting you used) embedded in the file, so you dont have to take notes or try and remember what settings you used. have you checked out the flash based tutorial linked to teh canon site? its great. (sorta linke dto this forum..

[Noni]

have you checked out the flash based tutorial linked to teh canon site? its great. (sorta linke dto this forum..
No, not yet...but soon. I'm still reading through all the composition and DoF stuff...but I will, don't worry.

And yes, while people are "arguing" I am learning. I will learn from whomever I can, grasp the information and then try to apply it; swallow it whole and then go from there. This is a grand adventure, and I am still at the check-in line while all the rest are running. I'll catch up, hopefully.

just listening to these guys "argue" is a great way to learn.
Oh, I agree. They can argue about the finer points of stuff, but that just makes me want to go find out what in heck "P" means...which contributes to my knowledge...like in anything else in life, those around you will teach even if they don't realize they're teaching. LOLOL!

And you're right - I can't wait to go digital...I suspect several "sick" days off work while I get my feet under me...

Thanks, SmittyMike.

Best-
Noni

[robertwgross]

the funny thing is i was going to suggest soemthing like this. i knew it had to be a marketing thing. ok well i feel like i learned something for the day, i cna go to sleep now. thanks. tomorrow we will discuss metering...lol

It's not really a marketing thing. I'm sorry that you did not understand what I wrote.

---Bob Gross---

[smittymike19]

It's not really a marketing thing. I'm sorry that you did not understand what I wrote.

---Bob Gross---

well i think it is. if you put it on there to have it, but it doesnt REALLY se rve a purpose, id call it a gimmick. you really are just trying to serve everyone's purpose. kinda like the hybrid cars. gets great gas like an electric, yet it has decent pickup like a gas car. i understood EXACTLY what you said. thanks again.:D

[Tom W]

P mode serves a very useful purpose - it is a good place to park your camera when you turn it off. Why? Because when you see something you want to shoot, you can just turn the camera on and shoot without worrying about whether you left the camera at f/16 the other day in Av mode, or if you were dragging the shutter at 1/30 the night before in Tv. The camera will choose middle-of-the-road settings for aperture and shutter for you to give you the best odds of a decent shot when additional setup isn't possible or desirable.

It's not a feature that everyone uses frequently, or even at all, but I wouldn't catagorize it as some kind of marketing gimmick merely because it isn't useful to everybody.

[robertwgross]

Tom W, I don't think there is any point.

Smittymike19 came in here asking questions, and now he knows all the answers, despite what I tried to tell him.

---Bob Gross---

[smittymike19]

Tom W, I don't think there is any point.

Smittymike19 came in here asking questions, and now he knows all the answers, despite what I tried to tell him.

---Bob Gross---

um thats rude.:confused:

[mkh]

Some of you think one way, some think another.

I think...that this is a great thread. I was given my Rebel (film) without the books from my father...he told me "it's got too many buttons...you can have it!!" and I had no idea what some of those buttons/markers meant.

As I am going to soon be switching to the Drebel 300, I've been learning so very much about the camera I have currently, and the one I am soon to be getting. Reading this thread encouraged me to get outside for several hours today, and play around and see what I could see about the different buttons...I tried P, Tv, AV, and others (on the film), and just had fun. The stuff is off at the developers right now, so I have no idea what I learned, other than I didn't break anything, and that correct DoF and composition is harder than I thought...

Thanks for "inspiring" me to learn more about what I've got, and what I will be getting, and to get out there and experiment.

Best-
Noni

Wait until you get the 300D and you will be in heaven. No more having to wait for film then remember what the conditions and the button settings were.

With digital you can get immediate feedback to know if something worked and the exif data will always be there to remind you later on. I believe you can grow as a photograper a lot quicker using digital (if that is what you desire) than you can with film.

[jfrancho]

well i think it is. if you put it on there to have it, but it doesnt REALLY se rve a purpose, id call it a gimmick. you really are just trying to serve everyone's purpose. kinda like the hybrid cars. gets great gas like an electric, yet it has decent pickup like a gas car. i understood EXACTLY what you said. thanks again.:DWhat the heck are you even talking about? These comments are just dumb. What Tom and Robert are saying is that the creative modes came about through product evolution - NOT marketing. Engineers solve a particular problem, and add that functionality to a product. These solutions are tested, and then made ready for production. Then, the product is marketed, meaning the product and it's features are described and defined so that we the consumer can easily understand the value. If product sells well (Canon's AE-1/AE-1 Program are good examples) then the solutions engineered within will become standard. The point is that we, the consumer, have driven the design of camera systems through our purchasing patterns. In a sense, we have validated that design. True, these features are now marketed: look our new camera has the familiar modes you are used to. Do you think it would be better if every camera manufacturer reinvented the wheel every time they released a new product? (ask anyone who has driven a BMW with iDrive) That would price them at unobtainable. Technology is an evolution, new is almost always an improvement or based on old. There are exceptions: lightbulb, telephone, internal combustion engine, plastic; you get the picture. Bottom line, it would take a very remarkable and special camera that abandons the familiar "creative modes" AND sells like hotcakes. One can only dream.

[jfrancho]

well i think it is. if you put it on there to have it, but it doesnt REALLY se rve a purpose, id call it a gimmick. you really are just trying to serve everyone's purpose. kinda like the hybrid cars. gets great gas like an electric, yet it has decent pickup like a gas car. i understood EXACTLY what you said. thanks again.:DOh, by the way, complaining about things on something you bought is sort of like complaining about your wife...just makes you sound like a sucker.

[smittymike19]

Oh, by the way, complaining about things on something you bought is sort of like complaining about your wife...just makes you sound like a sucker.

you need to check your eyes. i wasnt complaining. why do i care how many modes are on the camera? i am happy with the picture quality , which is paramount to all of teh bells and whistles. in case you forgot. but thanks for calling me a sucker it is really adult like of you. :)

[Belmondo]

C'mon guys. Let's keep this a friendly discussion. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing. There's everything wrong with personal attacks/insults.

As always, your cooperation is appreciated.

[jfrancho]

I apologize that it sounded like a personal attack/insult. Agreed, it's on the line, but I was making a general statement regarding the tone of the posts.

[DAMphyne]

When cameras first came out with the "Program Modes" they were locked in to what the manufacturer determined was the "Best" setting for any given situation. I'm familiar with Minolta's progress because that's what I used.
First they had just the A preferred, then they added S preferred, soon after came the P mode.
They introduced auto-focus on the Maxxum 7000, with all 3 exposure modes, plus the ability to add a different "Data-Back" that allowed the user to adjust the parameters of the modes. Sports, portraits, landscapes, or any variations that the user wanted, including a "Time-Date" right on the image. They marketed a modual that plugged in to automatically change the settings You wanted to use for your shooting style. You could actually set-up your camera to do a "Time Lapse" series of photos, just set it up and it would turn the camera on, make the exposure( with your preferred settings ), then turn the camera off, at whatever time lapse you wanted, for as long as the film would last.
My point being, these were features offered as tools to increase the market share of their product.
Some features "Bit the Dust", others continue on.
I wish my 10D had the time lapse feature, but the market didn't show this as an option that consumers found interesting or needed.
Just a little history, from an "Old Timer"
David

[jfrancho]

Thanks, David. Your post clearly shows the influence that a consumer has on product design. I love tidbits on technology that never caught on and why; like pushbutton transmissions on Studebakers. It can also be funny what persists, even though it seems useless; like VCR on screen programming.

[smittymike19]

whats a "vcr"..lol

[jfrancho]

Very Cruddy Recorder

[robertwgross]

why do i care how many modes are on the camera?

That's quite a rhetorical question that you ask, because several times over the last couple of days you have been asking for an understanding of this topic.

Tom and I, and even others, have presented our opinions. Then you turn those around in reverse and claim that you know it already. You are entitled to your opinion, but not when you try to turn around our opinion and claim that we said something else, like that P mode was a marketing gimmick, which you stated yesterday.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

---Bob Gross---

[jfrancho]

Some people like to create confrontation wherever they go. It is really quite an adorable trait. I for one won't take the bait anymore.

[Steven M. Anthony]

I wish my 10D had the time lapse feature, but the market didn't show this as an option that consumers found interesting or needed. David

I think the 10D can do time lapse when hooked up to a computer. I don't have the manual with me--but I think one of the software pachages it came with controls that.

To me (a marketing consultant) there is a difference between "marketing" and "marketing gimmic."

Marketing is the process of bringing customers products they desire. Marketing involves understanding ones customers (and potential customers), their needs, wants and desires. The Marketer then produces products/services that meet these desires--and product flies off the shelf. This marketing approach is seldom followed 100% in real life. Most companies operate under a sales model (or a mixture of marketing & sales). Under the sales model, companies produce what they can produce, and try to convince people it is what they need, want or desire.

That's where the marketing gimmic comes in. The marketing gimmic is the feature that is there because it can be there, or the spin put on a product deficiency to make it look like a benefit.

It's hard to tell which features are gimmics--just because i don't see the value doesn't mean someone else didn't. Like multi-point focusing: I tried it on the 10D when I first got it, but it never identified the object I wanted in focus! So now I just use the center point, focus and recompose. But I'm sure someone else knows how to get the most out of it.

Gimmic spin is, I think, easier to spot. While at an auto race with my 10 yr old son, he spied a die-cast Bentley (the 2003 Le Mans winner) that said, in a yellow sun burst, "sealed body design!" He asked what that meant. I said it meant the doors don't open (like some of the other models we'd seen). He said, "why do they make it look like a good thing?" I replied--to make people think it's better than it really is. I feel the same way about saying the crop factor (factor X if you will) makes a 200mm lens like a 320mm lens. It's true (with respect to FoV), but not necessarily desirable.

[Jon]

I wish my 10D had the time lapse feature, but the market didn't show this as an option that consumers found interesting or needed.
It's called the TC-80N3 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=164271&is=REG). Intervalometer, variable delay, long exposure timer, and remote release.

[blue_max]

Steve, I have the self same problem on my 10d and have come to the same solution. Great minds think alike and fools never differ. We are, of course, great minds!

I do agree that we are all in 'feature overload'. I used to own and use a Hasselblad and boy was that basic, but it did take fine pictures (when I got it right).

Perhaps we should have an a la carte camera where we can add features at a particular cost and keep it real if we want basic. I know how much I would save.

Graham

[Steven M. Anthony]

Great minds think alike and fools never differ. We are, of course, great minds!

I never even entertained the alternative interpretation! :)

Perhaps we should have an a la carte camera where we can add features at a particular cost and keep it real if we want basic. I know how much I would save.

Graham

You'd be surprised. By putting all the features on all the cameras, it helps reduce the cost of those features. To go a al carte, it might cost more for your basic + a few features as the current fully loaded version. There is also no waiting (mostly) for the fully loaded version!

Nissan has a maddening system for options on their cars--at least the Altima. In 2002 I bought an SE (V6). I wanted it with the 5-speed, which is a special order--2 month wait. Even though they were making one special for me, they would not bend their option package rules. For example, to spend $800 on the 6-cd in-dash changer, you first had to spend $1,300 on leather seats!

[jfrancho]

Steve, I have the self same problem on my 10d and have come to the same solution. Great minds think alike and fools never differ. We are, of course, great minds!

I do agree that we are all in 'feature overload'. I used to own and use a Hasselblad and boy was that basic, but it did take fine pictures (when I got it right).

Perhaps we should have an a la carte camera where we can add features at a particular cost and keep it real if we want basic. I know how much I would save.

GrahamPlatform sharing is already in full effect in camera manufacturing. The firmware hacks available for the 300D demonstrate this. But I know what you mean, just give me a camera that shoots raw, one autofocus point, spot metering, up to ISO 3200, with P, Tv, Av, and M. And throw in the 18mp sensor...
It would cost a fortune to make custom cameras.

[jfrancho]

SMA,
It could be worse, you could be shopping for an acura. You get choice of color....over simplified.

[DAMphyne]

TC-80N3, it's cheaper than the Data-Back was for my Minolta, 22 years ago.
Thanks for the info Guys.

David

[robertwgross]

Marketing is the process of bringing customers products they desire.

Yes, there is a variation of that. Sometimes, marketing is the process of figuring out a new product application and then proposing that as a solution to all of the world's problems. Sometimes the customer had the product and didn't really know how to take advantage of it fully. Marketing is sometimes an educational process to make the customer really desire the new solution.

---Bob Gross---

[robertwgross]

I'm familiar with Minolta's progress because that's what I used.
First they had just the A preferred, then they added S preferred, soon after came the P mode.

About what time frame did Minolta do that?

My first SLR was a Konica Autoreflex T, circa 1970. It did Tv only. My second one was the Autoreflex TC, circa 1977. It did Tv, Av, and two other modes. But Konica was doing Tv when almost every other manufacturer was on Av only.

---Bob Gross---

[smittymike19]

That's quite a rhetorical question that you ask, because several times over the last couple of days you have been asking for an understanding of this topic.

Tom and I, and even others, have presented our opinions. Then you turn those around in reverse and claim that you know it already. You are entitled to your opinion, but not when you try to turn around our opinion and claim that we said something else, like that P mode was a marketing gimmick, which you stated yesterday.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

---Bob Gross---

hey bob, listen. i have no idea why you are coming after me. i said thanks for the response and siad what ithgought of the idea of the modes. you can call it marketing gimmick, sales driven option, i really dont care. the point was i understood what you said and said thanks, stop attacking me, you are supposed to be a senior member here so i would expect a much higher quality level of behavior. Sorry if the way i summed up what you said was not to your liking. I never intended to try and seem rude or stir the pot, but for some reason you are coming after me. let it die. i appreciate the helpful response and i bet everyone else does too. but we can all do without the personal attacks.:)

[robertwgross]

hey bob, listen. i have no idea why you are coming after me. i said thanks for the response and siad what ithgought of the idea of the modes. you can call it marketing gimmick, sales driven option, i really dont care. the point was i understood what you said and said thanks, stop attacking me, you are supposed to be a senior member here so i would expect a much higher quality level of behavior. Sorry if the way i summed up what you said was not to your liking. I never intended to try and seem rude or stir the pot, but for some reason you are coming after me. let it die. i appreciate the helpful response and i bet everyone else does too. but we can all do without the personal attacks.:)

Your apology is accepted.

For the record, I never made any personal attacks. I was the one who was trying to point out the facts and details of the discussion that just occurred. Once you've used P mode for a while, you will learn its real usefulness.

---Bob Gross---

[DAMphyne]

My memory is a little vague on the dates, but the cameras I remember.
the XE7 had A preferred, along with the XG model. I believe the XK had both Aperture and Shutter Preferred. I think it also had the Program mode, not sure.
The Maxxum 7000(which I still have and use, although very little) has the full range of modes along with the auto-focus.

[DAMphyne]

Just to add to the thought, My photo Guru at the time was using a Nikkormat EL, it had TV,
We sure had a good time argueing about which was better.
Learned a lot, used a lot of film.

[Noni]

Hi, MK
With digital you can get immediate feedback to know if something worked and the exif data will always be there to remind you later on. I believe you can grow as a photograper a lot quicker using digital (if that is what you desire) than you can with film.
I got the film back, and frankly, I don't even want to remember what I did. Yuck. Of course, about 2 weeks ago, I'd've said "hrm, not bad on this or that one..." but there is only one shot from this batch I like, and it's not composed at all decently.

Sigh...

I've got so much learning - and practicing - to do. I am not going to get the 20D as much as I'd like to, because of the pervasive thought that it would both frustrate me enormously and also taint me as an imposter..."what's she doing with a camera like that? She can't even take good snapshots!"

So I bought a few books today, will start out with the 300, read everything I can find on everything I can think of, and go from there..."P" mode or not. LOL!

Best-
Noni

[Benuch]

Another very importat feature is that in P mode as opposed to A mode (rectangle), you can change the ISO.

[robertwgross]

Another very importat feature is that in P mode as opposed to A mode (rectangle), you can change the ISO.

P mode is program mode. Exactly what do you mean by A mode (rectangle)?

There is Av mode for Aperture Value. On many cameras, there is a Green Rectangle (green box) which is the fully automatic exposure mode.

---Bob Gross---

[CyberDyneSystems]

He's thinking "A" as in "Auto" mode,. otherwise called "the green box" :)

[smittymike19]

Hi, MK

I got the film back, and frankly, I don't even want to remember what I did. Yuck. Of course, about 2 weeks ago, I'd've said "hrm, not bad on this or that one..." but there is only one shot from this batch I like, and it's not composed at all decently.

Sigh...

I've got so much learning - and practicing - to do. I am not going to get the 20D as much as I'd like to, because of the pervasive thought that it would both frustrate me enormously and also taint me as an imposter..."what's she doing with a camera like that? She can't even take good snapshots!"

So I bought a few books today, will start out with the 300, read everything I can find on everything I can think of, and go from there..."P" mode or not. LOL!

Best-
Noni

2 things.
1. go get your digital. trust me it is the best teacher in the world. so many tools at your disposal.
2. with digital you can recrop in the studio :).
if you went out and shot all awesome pictures, what fun would that be. part of the allure is that it isnt easy, that way you can spend a lifetime developing your skills. what books did you get? i am a big fan of the national geography photography book. i understand that "understanding exposures" is another must have book. i just ordered it, ill let you know.

[robertwgross]

When you are shooting film, it is almost impossible to make a written record of every shot you took and what camera settings you used. A few experts, like maybe John Shaw, might do that successfully.

With EOS digital cameras, nearly all of that is done automatically and the record is carried around as "EXIF data" attached to the image file. Many of our computer photo editors will display that data.

So, if you shoot five images that have different exposure values, you can review them on the computer and study the EXIF data to figure out which ones you did right and which ones you did wrong, and you can see exactly which setting, such as the aperture, got you the best results. It's all pretty carefully laid out and ready for the user to study.

I believe the book is titled National Geographic Photography Field Guide, by Burian and Caputo. It starts with basic stuff for beginners and then progresses to inspirational stuff for experienced photographers.

---Bob Gross---

[UK_Terry]

"P" mode used here most of the time as well

[robertwgross]

Terry, how about we ship one person from the States over to the Old Country for P Training?

---Bob Gross---

[UK_Terry]

Terry, how about we ship one person from the States over to the Old Country for P Training?

---Bob Gross---

Great Idea Bob, please send over one of "Charlesu" models

i will send my full address, and anything else she would require:rolleyes: :) :eek:

[xuxu1]

As for me....

Ever since i got my 10D, i never even tried the creative modes. :o
Is that a mistake?

I select either "P", "AV", "TV" or "M" mode depending what i am taking a picture of.

Example:

For fire works i prefer "M" mode (bulb setting) on my tripod and using the remote switch.

For Aviation Photography i prefer "TV" mode. There is nothing that looks more silly than a Prop Aircraft or Helicopter "standing" in the air with none rotating blades. :lol:

When DOF is important then i use"AV".

And of course now and then "P" mode is very useful. :D

Now why no creative modes in my case? Because i shoot 99,99% in RAW.

That´s me. Everybody should use the mode she/he thinks suits her/him best.

Kind Regards
ED

[O/confusion]

Terry, how about we ship one person from the States over to the Old Country for P Training?

---Bob Gross---

That really gave me a belly laugh, Bob! P training. (Breaks into another fit of chuckling).

If we're on the same wavelength here, I'd probably even be willing to donate towards the price of a one-way flight.

regards,
Terry (not the other one, but an ex-pat from the UK!)

[O/confusion]

As for me....

Ever since i got my 10D, i never even tried the creative modes. :o
Is that a mistake?

I select either "P", "AV", "TV" or "M" mode depending what i am taking a picture of.

Example:

For fire works i prefer "M" mode (bulb setting) on my tripod and using the remote switch.

For Aviation Photography i prefer "TV" mode. There is nothing that looks more silly than a Prop Aircraft or Helicopter "standing" in the air with none rotating blades. :lol:

When DOF is important then i use"AV".

And of course now and then "P" mode is very useful. :D

Now why no creative modes in my case? Because i shoot 99,99% in RAW.

That´s me. Everybody should use the mode she/he thinks suits her/him best.

Kind Regards
ED

xuxu1,

I think you'll find that the settings you're referring to are what are described as the "creative modes"; it's the others on the dial that are, apparently, deemed no so creative! The label is not really of any serious value, anyway. It's perfectly possible to be creative at any setting on a camera; it's just that some modes allow a greater degree flexibility for the photographer in choosing how to respond to a given situation--and, as you have mentioned, the ability to shoot RAW.

regards,
Terry

[Noni]

Bob Gross said:
I believe the book is titled National Geographic Photography Field Guide, by Burian and Caputo. It starts with basic stuff for beginners and then progresses to inspirational stuff for experienced photographers.
I bought:
"Photogrpahing the World Around You" by Freeman Patterson
"Inner Game of Outdoor Photography" by Galen Rowell
"National Geo. Field Guide: Secrets to Making Great Pictures" Burian/Caputo (2nd Ed.)
"National Geo. Field Guide: Landscapes" by Caputo

So, if you shoot five images that have different exposure values, you can review them on the computer and study the EXIF data to figure out which ones you did right and which ones you did wrong, and you can see exactly which setting, such as the aperture, got you the best results. It's all pretty carefully laid out and ready for the user to study.
And that's one of the most important things I think I can learn - what works and what doesn't. And my notes are horrid...

Honestly, I was just trying to see the difference in lenses, and looking at natural lighting and composition. But it still was mighty discouraging. Sigh...

SmittyMike said:

1. go get your digital. trust me it is the best teacher in the world. so many tools at your disposal.
Hopefully I will be able to set aside the $$ by the end of the month. And then the learning begins in earnest. Or the confusion. Or the frustration. LOL!

if you went out and shot all awesome pictures, what fun would that be. part of the allure is that it isnt easy, that way you can spend a lifetime developing your skills. what books did you get? i am a big fan of the national geography photography book. i understand that "understanding exposures" is another must have book. i just ordered it, ill let you know.
Please, yes, let me know. And you're right - if I shot all awesome photos right off, I wouldn't have as much fun...that's it...I'll just keep thinking this is "fun" and not frustrating! ;) Kidding, mostly. You are right, though...the learning is a fascinating aspect of this. I'm not terribly technically minded, and so all of this "f/stop" and shutter speed stuff is getting me boggled. But I also know if I stick with the learning, by the time I get my hands on my new camera, I'll at least have a base of understanding - not nearly complete, mind you; just a base - to start from.

I see things in my mind, and want to get it out of my head and onto a tangible medium...and that's not easy to do. But hey, that's also part of the adventure.

Isn't it?

LOL!

Thanks for the encouragement and advise, both of you. I do appreciate it, and maybe someday I'll actually have a decent photo to show you.

Best-
Noni

[robertwgross]

Noni, everybody has a different favorite subject for photography, so no list of books will be sufficient.

However, since I consider myself an outdoor/nature photographer, I enjoy several of Galen Rowell's books. Before his untimely death, he enjoyed mixing adventure with photography.

The other author is John Shaw. The only books of his that I have are pre-digital, but most of the concepts are still valid.

---Bob Gross---

[rdenney]

this wasnt intended to be an opinion war on the different modes. iwas trying to figure out whta the real differences between them were and why they are on the camera.
2 answers:
1. marketing
2.using the exposure compenstaion buttons in each mode will not affetc the parameter you are after.


No, it isn't really just marketing.

Let me approach it from a different perspective. Taking a picture with the correct exposure is a matter of measuring the scene and making some choice about aperture and shutter speed. The metering modes handle the first bit, so let's concern ourselves only with the choices made after the scene's luminance is measured.

You use a large aperture (small number) when you want narrow depth of field as an effect, or when the light is low and you need a faster shutter speed. You use a small aperture (large number) when you want more depth of field and the resulting shutter speed is acceptable. You want a slower shutter speed when you need to use a smaller aperture, or when you want motion blur. You want a faster shutter speed when you need to control motion blur, and can live with the larger aperture.

In other words, we have a series of rules that we follow to determine which aperture and shutter speed we want to use. Those rules are often in conflict, so we find the best compromise setting.

P mode is just one reasonably versatile compromise of those rules. It will select a larger aperture to get a hand-holdable shutter speed, or a smaller aperture if there is plenty of light and the shutter speed is already high. Generally, it finds the middle path through those issues we usually apply when choosing aperture and shutter speed.

Those who generally agree with the compromise of those rules used in P mode will use P mode a lot and enjoy it. Those who find themselves always wanting a smaller aperture because they are steady or because they use a monopod or tripod might find P mode always provides a faster shutter than they need. And so on.

The rules for P mode are quite specifically described in the manual. Take a look. Then try it out and see if it selects exposure settings that are generally acceptable for you. If it does consistently, then it's a great convenience.

Personally, I find that P mode works about three-quarters of the time. The other quarter I will want to specifically select the aperture or shutter speed because of a particular thing I'm trying to do. Then, I use Av or Tv, or even M. I find that's generally easier than turning the wheel for a different exposure combination.

Rick "who thinks it's still a creative mode if you know why you are using it" Denney

[Andy_T]

On my NOINK film camera, I used P mode a lot.
However, with the 20D, it's almost exclusively Av with f/4 or f/5.6, ISO 400 as standard setting when I turn off the camera (with a 50/1.8 or Tamron 28-75/2.8 ).

What I prefer about A mode is that there is a custom function available to set the shutter speed to 1/250 when flash is activated. 8)

My gripe with P on the 20D is that (for me) it selects too slow a shutter speed to get crisp and sharp pictures (slower than 1/focal length*1.6 :confused: )

Best regards,
Andy

[robertwgross]

My gripe with P on the 20D is that (for me) it selects too slow a shutter speed to get crisp and sharp pictures (slower than 1/focal length*1.6 :confused: )


Andy, your camera would be shocked to find that you are not using a tripod.

If P mode gives you a slow shutter, then just crank up the ISO. Doesn't that speed it up a bit? Are you taking the first P exposure solution that it shows you, or are you dialing around to look at the other solutions?

---Bob Gross---

[Andy_T]

Bob,

I found out when I was taking indoor shots in my well-lit (5 halogen lamps) living room with the built-in flash at 75 mm and ISO 400 and the camera would stubbornly refuse to give me anything faster than 1/60 second at f/4 (Tamron 28-75/2.8 ) :confused:

When I changed the setting to A mode, the pictures limited to 1/250 were beautifully exposed at the same aperture/ISO setting, as the only thing that was really required was some fill flash. I try not to use ISO 800 if I don't have to, as the noise is more visible there (though still acceptable).

Dialing around wouldn't help me much in that situation. And you will agree that 1/60 for 75 mm focal length on a 1.6 crop body is pretty slow (and I have shaky hands).

Best regards,
Andy

PS: If I have to dial around, I can use Av mode in the first place :p

[napolar]

Rick,
I just loved your explanation. Sometimes you need to see things expressed in a different way to have a light bulb go off over your head. Just wanted to say thanks for the shock!

[HJMinard]

Andy, your camera would be shocked to find that you are not using a tripod.

If P mode gives you a slow shutter, then just crank up the ISO. Doesn't that speed it up a bit? Are you taking the first P exposure solution that it shows you, or are you dialing around to look at the other solutions?

---Bob Gross---

Bob,

Pardon a silly question ... but I hadn't used P in quite awhile prior to this last weekend. I was using P with a flash indoors - same lens as Andy with the same results: 1/60&f4 every time. Whenever I tried to shift it would temporarily change, but with a half press of the shutter it returned to 1/60&f4. Do I have to hold down the shutter (half press) while shifting with the dial?

Or perhaps my problem is due to CF mapping of focus to the * button?

Coincidentally, Andy, I'm quite happy with the focus/sharpness of the images taken at 60/f4. However, I was hoping/trying for a faster speed.

[Andy_T]

Coincidentally, Andy, I'm quite happy with the focus/sharpness of the images taken at 60/f4. However, I was hoping/trying for a faster speed.

Hehe, then your hands are steadier than mine ... must cut back on the coffee intake :lol:

I'm very happy with the custom function ... that way I also see in the viewfinder if the flash is charged when using an external flash. When it turns back from 1/15 to 1/250, I know it's ready to fire.

Best regards,
Andy

[robertwgross]

Pardon a silly question ... but I hadn't used P in quite awhile prior to this last weekend. I was using P with a flash indoors - same lens as Andy with the same results: 1/60&f4 every time. Whenever I tried to shift it would temporarily change, but with a half press of the shutter it returned to 1/60&f4. Do I have to hold down the shutter (half press) while shifting with the dial?

I think the P shift is fine, and it will hold only temporarily that way. Then, if you haven't taken the shot, it reverts back to the unshifted solution.

At least for me, that is not a big problem. I think if I shift the P solution to what I want and then "keep it alive" by half-pressing repeatedly (not continuously), it will stay there until I take the shot.

If I want the same solution to remain active, then I read those shutter and aperture numbers and stick that into the camera with Tv or Av mode.

I don't like that 1/60th second much, so I tend to crank it up to 1/200th frequently.

---Bob Gross---

[robertwgross]

Hehe, then your hands are steadier than mine ... must cut back on the coffee intake

I believe that medical condition is known as Belmondo's Syndrome.

---Bob Gross---

[Rob612]

you see, as a former film shooter, I still find it difficult to remember that I can actually change the ISO mid roll.

So true... go with 1600 for 2 shots, then back to 100, the another series @800... thats the theng that still astonishes me... I always tend to think about pulling the film in the darkroom...