Photos at a Profesional sporting event, is it OK too....?

[byso]

If you pay $20- to enter a stadium to watch professional sport and you're allowed to take you're camera inside. Is it OK too?


1. Post photo's of cheerleader & Players on the gallery website, without a players knowledge?

2. Post photo's of fans who know there photo will end up on the gallery website?

3. Sell the photo's of the Athletes etc from the site? This could be without the player or clubs permission!

I was talking to a pro photographer and he said that you can sell them, but you can only sell the print twice. Then you should DELETE the file!

FYI the club is happy for me to place my photo's on my site, but what if I didn't ask permission or if they decided to saying NO?

[IndyJeff]

I don't know about Austrailian pro sports but, here in the US, it is a no brainer. You don't do it.

If you pay $20- to enter a stadium to watch professional sport and you're allowed to take you're camera inside. Is it OK too?
If they let you take a camera in then feel free to shoot. I would think that displaying with the intentions of selling would not be allowed.


1. Post photo's of cheerleader & Players on the gallery website, without a players knowledge?

Release....need I say more?

2. Post photo's of fans who know there photo will end up on the gallery website?
In a public place there is no expectation of privacy but, if someone would request that their image not be displayed I would think it wise to remove it.

3. Sell the photo's of the Athletes etc from the site? This could be without the player or clubs permission!
Here in the states, doing that will land you smack dab in the middle of a lawsuit, from the league and the athlete.

I was talking to a pro photographer and he said that you can sell them, but you can only sell the print twice. Then you should DELETE the file!
If you are allowed to sell them then why should you delete the file? Sounds fishy to me, best not try it.

FYI the club is happy for me to place my photo's on my site, but what if I didn't ask permission or if they decided to saying NO?
Will they be happy if your profiting from their trademark, image rights, logo, etc, etc? The NFL, MLB, NBA, NASCAR, IRL, CCWS, NCAA, USAC and every other sanctioning body I can think of controls the rights to their images. There are only two ways you can sell them, editorially or with a license to market that product.

DISCLAIMER
Be advise all of the above information is based upon law here in the states. Laws may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. See your attorney for proper legal advise.

[byso]

Thanks mate it's good to get a different perspective. It seem's a confusing issue.

Release....need I say more? (pordan my ignorance?) what do you mean? Do I need get the athletes permission to post the photo on a site?

[Wazza]

If you have the permission from every person involved, I don't see what's wrong. But you are trying to sell photos. I've shot before at a cricket match, just for fun, but many people had cameras there. It was only for personal use. Lucky in Australia, there aren't those silly lawsuits.. Just a few rules, where you get slapped on the wrist if you get it wrong.

[byso]

I bet you would have enjoyed photographing the Aussies smacking the black cats around.....lol........

I'm asking about posting the photos on a website in a gallery format for supporters to look at. There on a different site to the club supporter website (manly NRL). I have the OK....but were would I stand if I didn't?
I'm just trying to see if it's generally OK to do that. As far as selling them goes, thats a totally different story. I'm not really worried about that yet!

[defordphoto]

If you pay $20- to enter a stadium to watch professional sport and you're allowed to take you're camera inside. Is it OK too?


1. Post photo's of cheerleader & Players on the gallery website, without a players knowledge?

2. Post photo's of fans who know there photo will end up on the gallery website?

3. Sell the photo's of the Athletes etc from the site? This could be without the player or clubs permission!

I was talking to a pro photographer and he said that you can sell them, but you can only sell the print twice. Then you should DELETE the file!

FYI the club is happy for me to place my photo's on my site, but what if I didn't ask permission or if they decided to saying NO?

1. Yes. They are at a public event. No model releases needed.
2. See #1
3. Absolutely not.

The alleged pro you talked to is on crack.

[IndyJeff]

The alleged pro you talked to is on crack.



Bwhahahahaha Jim I was kind of thinking the same thing. Either that or this guy thinks he might have some competition and if he gets this new guy into trouble, no worries about the competition anymore.

[defordphoto]

Bwhahahahaha Jim I was kind of thinking the same thing. Either that or this guy thinks he might have some competition and if he gets this new guy into trouble, no worries about the competition anymore.

:lol: Yeah. Sell only two copies. That's one of the most silliest statements I have ever heard. I would have loved to have been there...

[elkootcho]

Post photo's of cheerleader & Players on the gallery website, without a players knowledge?

Indy Jeff: . Release....need I say more?
RFMSports: 1. Yes. They are at a public event. No model releases needed.

Two competing responses. If they're not used for commercial purposes, which is correct?

Does anyone know of a book or website that spells this stuff out? Like most laws, it's totally confusing.

[jukas]

1. Yes. They are at a public event. No model releases needed.
2. See #1
3. Absolutely not.

The alleged pro you talked to is on crack.

I'm a little confused on #1.. since it's not truely a public event, but a private event on private property that he paid an admission fee for, wouldn't he need a release from the event holder to sell or use the photos in a non editorial fashion? Or have I misunderstood the need for releases in that instance?

[IndyJeff]

Technically a release would be needed but, in general getting a signed release would put an undue burden upon the photographer which would render the task undoable.
In general terms, if you do something like this, posting images froma game on the internet and someone objects, you simply apologize and remove the image. They can't drag you into court because you displayed their image. Their are hoops they must jump thru first. A cease and desist letter is the first step. Ignore that and you will be looking at a judge in the near future.

Now if you are selling those images, a C & D letter will still be mailed and there could be a suit for recovery of income derived from the use of that persons image.

Jukas as for you confusion, if it is a public event and the image is used in an editorial context, then no release is needed. Now lets say you have a shot of some hot looking girl standing, clapping for her team. You post it with a caption, "Fans cheer on the Tigers in their win over the Red Sox", that would be an editorial use. Now if you take that shot and sell it for anyone and everyone to hang on their wall, yes she is that good looking, then you have violated her right to control her own image and she is due compensation. If you have a signed release, then she can cry all she wants and you don't owe her a dime.

[byso]

Some great responses, Thanks

The "pro" on crack comment is a classic. I was certainly surprised by the "pro's" comment.
Maybe his angle was that you can’t mass sell a photo because the more you sell it, the value would become less. I suppose if you sold a photo for a $1000 to a newspaper or magazine if you then sold the same photo to 5 other competitors the original purchaser would get very annoyed.

From the sounds of things it's certainly OK to post the photos on a web gallery. Asking for trouble though, if you sell them. I don't think I’ll sell them.

Out of interest what type of photos can you sell then?

From the sounds of things you can only sell scenery photos, nothing with people in it unless you have a “release”?

[jukas]

From the sounds of things you can only sell scenery photos, nothing with people in it unless you have a “release”?


If you tried to sell an image of a identifiable private property you'd need a property release!

Public land landscapes are still free through ;)

[S230]

Here's my 2.3 cents (Includes TAX in Canada),

If you would like to make some money, try contact the coach and have him take care of the model release forms amd give him and whoever's in the photo a cut of the profit.

[Avalonthas]

In Canada you can take pics of anyone including chearleaders, fans, and players as long as they are not used for commericial purposes....unless there is an agreement of course. The only case where you can sell them is to a newspaper, and basically the paper takes responsiblity after that so ur free from any prosecution.

[defordphoto]

I'm a little confused on #1.. since it's not truely a public event, but a private event on private property that he paid an admission fee for, wouldn't he need a release from the event holder to sell or use the photos in a non editorial fashion? Or have I misunderstood the need for releases in that instance?

Well, you did not tell us that. For people to answer your questions you need to tell us all the facts. In this case, now that the facts are known, I'd get releases since it's a private event and the people there would expect a reasonable amount of privacy.

[defordphoto]

Two competing responses. If they're not used for commercial purposes, which is correct?

Does anyone know of a book or website that spells this stuff out? Like most laws, it's totally confusing.

In a normal public event, if you are selling the photos to anything but a news service or magazine, you do not need a release. If you are selling a print for profit, then you need a release.

Example: You're at a NASCAR race and shoot a photo of the cars. Many people in the stands are obviously recognizable. You sell this photo to Sports Illustrated for $500. No releases are necessary.

Same photo: You want to sell this as a poster. You'd need the driver, team and NASCAR's releases, plus the sponsors of the car. The people in the stand would not matter though as there is no way you can get releases from all those people.

[jimsolt]

Two competing responses. If they're not used for commercial purposes, which is correct?

Does anyone know of a book or website that spells this stuff out? Like most laws, it's totally confusing.

The best reading on this subject can be found by enrolling in Harvard Law School. Short of that, you can hire a graduate to give you pointers. Be aware that the person suing you will have his own graduate with a different interpretation and they both work by the hour. :lol:
Jim

[RockSlut]

Byso, I deal with rock and roll photography (in Australia) which is similar - I'm at a public event shooting. The following is not legal advice, but is based upon my own research into the ins and outs of shooting at public events in Australia. I suggest using it as a basis for your further enquiries only.

1. Check the back of your ticket and or venue policy regarding permission to photograph whilst at the venue. In the absence of a "no photography" condition of entry then you're fine to take the photos.

2. RE: Selling the images. The only way that you will be able to sell your photos (beyond editorial use) is to sell the images to an interested party. For example - prints to the subject (whether player or cheerleader or random punter in the crowd), the clubs (not club members) or the promoters (the NRL) and or the sponsors would be fine. For publishing purposes - again only editorial, unless you are licensing your photos to one of the above parties.

3. In regards to editorial sales. Most publications that would intend on publishing photos of the game would likely have their own staffers/freelancers on site. Therefore, unless you got "the shot" that no one else captured, then editorial sales will be at the very least very difficult.

[byso]

Thanks everyone for trying to clear up the issue.

From the sounds of things you can't sell the photos directly to the public. But can sell it back to the athlete the photo was taken of, or to the print media.

But it's fine to post the photos, on a web gallery, without selling them. But if someone objects to having there photo on the site you should take it down ASAP.

[RockSlut]

But it's fine to post the photos, on a web gallery, without selling them. But if someone objects to having there photo on the site you should take it down ASAP.

That is correct from an ethical perspective, yes. If they are published editorially such as proposed there is no legal obligation to remove the photos.

If you do take down the photos upon request, then you are just being a decent person (which is, in my opinion, just as important as staying within the law).

That being said I have never been asked to remove one of my photos from my website because I don't publish photos of a subject that paints them in anything other than a positive light.

[BayAreaPhotog]

Generally, on the back of a ticket that you purchase, there is a disclaimer addressing this issue. The major sporting leagues and teams own the rights to them.

[BTBP88]

What is the current rule on taking photos of current NCAA athletes and selling them to fans? I noticed some college websites are selling them and the people can purchase an action photo from the local newspaper.

[MJPhotos24]

What is the current rule on taking photos of current NCAA athletes and selling them to fans? I noticed some college websites are selling them and the people can purchase an action photo from the local newspaper.
Holy old thread revival!

NCAA says print sales will not hurt a players eligibility.

It depends on the school - they can tell you to stop any time they want and if you don't ban you from all future events. The law says a print is editorial and that's why newspapers can sell published photos of any event they want - colleges and pro teams view it otherwise and since it's their event they can restrict you however they want. Most have photo rules posted or in place, and just because you didn't see them doesn't mean they are there.

Any way you look at it you should be getting permission from the schools before trying to sell - even if it is legal in the states. You may not only be stepping on their toes but another photographer who may be hired full time and that's just a bad idea.