Police intervention?

[chauncey]

We tend to bad mouth the police a lot...this is my experience last evening in the park with officer Schmittel, of the Rochester, MI, Police Department.

Someone reported a man with a camera and to be fair, I am a grungy looking, fat, elderly gentleman with a beard and longish unkempt hair.

This is a condensed version of the ensuing conversion between officer Schmittel and myself.
He rides up and asks for ID, "why" I say.
"Because it was reported that you were taking pictures of children."
"I'm in a public park with a camera and I'm allowed to take pictures."
"You are, unless you're breaking the law."
"And how might I be breaking the law?"
"If you're a convicted pedophile and you're taking pictures of children. it's against the law. Put yourself in the position of these other folks."
"Well $hit, you've got a valid point, here's my ID"
After running the background check he asks "by the way, why are you taking pictures of the kids?"
"Ah...because their my kids...adopted"

Won't go into his comments on my sanity. But I got a picture in the end.

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l383/chauncey43/379U0987-lge.jpg

Point being, it doesn't need to be confrontational.

[snyderman]

that is one happy looking bunch of kids! And a cop willing to pose is a bonus!

dave

[nadtz]

heh, I had a similar thing with CPD in wicker park. I was taking pics early one morning and a cop rolls up in his cruiser. Keep in mind its like 7am and Im the only person there.

"what are you doing?"
"Taking pictures"
"what for?"
"the Gardening club, and for my personal use."
"Oh yeah? Lemme see"

Ends up his wife was part of the garden club and he keeps an eye on the park because there are some somewhat unsavory characters. I have known quite a few cops in NY and a few in Chicago, I wouldnt want to do what they do!

One of the images from that morning.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/2518413963_3764fdc184_o.jpg

[ryant35]

I love the police! And they love duckies. My brother in-law is a Sargent and a former undercover narcotics officer, and my uncle is chief of police in his town in Nebraska and a local celebrity.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/Duckies/IMG_2695-1.jpg

They did say that it wouldn't be appropriate to hold the ducky though.

[Cashoo]

I love the police! And they love duckies. My brother in-law is a Sargent and a former undercover narcotics officer, and my uncle is chief of police in his town in Nebraska and a local celebrity.

They did say that it wouldn't be appropriate to hold the ducky though.

You don't seem to love them.

Edit:
I'm talking about the ducks.

[ryant35]

You don't seem to love them.


What?

[Cashoo]

What?
Sorry I meant to say "You don't seem to love ducks though." Since your avatar has a burning duck head.

[ryant35]

Sorry I meant to say "You don't seem to love ducks though." Since your avatar has a burning duck head.

oh I get it. No I love duckies.

That ducky was playing with turpentine & matches, it's not my fault.

Check out the Ducky in the City thread linked in my signature.

[samueli]

We tend to bad mouth the police a lot...this is my experience last evening in the park with officer Schmittel, of the Rochester, MI, Police Department.

Ok, here is the first problem:

Someone reported a man with a camera and to be fair, I am a grungy looking, fat, elderly gentleman with a beard and longish unkempt hair.

Grungy looking or not, I haven't heard that having a camera or taking pictures was illegal. If someone calls the police and reports that someone has a camera and is taking pictures, the police should have politely said thank you for your concern, but there is nothing illegal about that. If your grungy looking, then by all means you must be doing something illegal.

This is a condensed version of the ensuing conversion between officer Schmittel and myself.
He rides up and asks for ID, "why" I say.
"Because it was reported that you were taking pictures of children."
"I'm in a public park with a camera and I'm allowed to take pictures."
"You are, unless you're breaking the law."
"And how might I be breaking the law?"
"If you're a convicted pedophile and you're taking pictures of children. it's against the law. Put yourself in the position of these other folks."
"Well $hit, you've got a valid point, here's my ID"
After running the background check he asks "by the way, why are you taking pictures of the kids?"
"Ah...because their my kids...adopted"


I would have politely told the officer to kiss off unless he was going to arrest me and charge me for something, then I would have gotten a lawyer involved. Very poor judgment on that of the officer.

One day we won't be allowed to have cameras in public, for reasons like this.

[jgrussell]

Won't go into his comments on my sanity.I'll comment on that point: I sure wish there were more people as "insane" as you. Lovely famiily you have there. Great shot.

[Jon Foster]

Chauncey, good shot. Did you get his e-mail address so you can send him a copy of the shot too? Most LEO's are pretty good guys and just doing their job like anyone else. It's good to hear a positive story every so often.

Edit: His face actually looks familiar (I don't know if that's good or bad). But the Rochester Police Department and the Oakland County Sheriff are big supporters of our school and do a great job of taking care of our facilities.

Jon.

[Pyromaniac]

I can say that I honestly have never had any trouble from any sworn law enforcement officers. I always seem to get the rent-a-cop that works the front desk telling me I can't take shots of public structures from the public side walk.

[Haru]

I can say that I honestly have never had any trouble from any sworn law enforcement officers. I always seem to get the rent-a-cop that works the front desk telling me I can't take shots of public structures from the public side walk.

This happened to me in L.A. last year. I was taking pictures of a fountain outside a large office building in downtown. It happened to be a monument of the twin towers that every 20 minuets or so would burst into flames... yeah. So I line up to get a nice shot of the thing and the door man rushes over and without even saying a word just waves his finger at me. At this point i could have gotten into an argument with him, and the 10 loud opinionated friends i was with would have jumped in and probably gotten us all questioned by police. So in a rare moment of better judgment i walked away, slung my camera over my shoulder and burst off a few frames, a few turned out ok. :p

The one real cop I ran into was polite and after giving him my I.D. was more than happy to let me go back to doing my non-terrorist based activities.

[cdifoto]

I can say that I honestly have never had any trouble from any sworn law enforcement officers. I always seem to get the rent-a-cop that works the front desk telling me I can't take shots of public structures from the public side walk.
Same here. Real cops don't seem to be a problem but rent-a-cops and USPS employees do.

[canonnoob]

Grungy looking or not, I haven't heard that having a camera or taking pictures was illegal. If someone calls the police and reports that someone has a camera and is taking pictures, the police should have politely said thank you for your concern, but there is nothing illegal about that. If your grungy looking, then by all means you must be doing something illegal.



.

While you might be right... it isnt illegal... it is a problem to be taking pictures in that kind of situation. it is called being a suspicious person.. which is the cause for most of the reasons photographers get the cops called on them.

[form]

Real cops are the ones we have issues with most around here. In second place are the security in the resorts like Bellagio. Most of the cops here are young and full of self-righteousness and enjoy hiding behind "suspected illegal activity" to harass people. "just doing our job." No, it's a police state.

For those who have good experiences with your local police, be thankful that they choose to do what they should all be doing in the first place, and indeed what a public servant's job calls for most but nowadays sees the least of: Exercising common sense and using their discretion.

[Patriotic1]

I am always intrigued by the "hassled by the police" stories because I've lived in the suburbs of Washington DC for over 30 years and I've spent countless days taking pictures of the monuments, building architecture and people downtown (...near the US Capitol building and numerous other government buildings) with a DSLR, long and short lenses, and I've never been given a hard time. Even since 9/11

On a few (albeit rare) occasions I've have been asked to show my ID by a police officer and once by a uniformed USSS officer/agent. But everytime they were polite, asked me a few questions, said thanks and on I went.

Maybe it's because they get so many tourists in DC - so seeing someone with a DSLR isn't so unusual, or maybe my experience is the exception rather then the norm here. But I'm glad I haven't had to deal with the stuff some of you have. That would be really annoying.

[nicksan]

Chauncey, it all makes sense now.:lol:;):lol:


Someone reported a man with a camera and to be fair, I am a grungy looking, fat, elderly gentleman with a beard and longish unkempt hair.
Point being, it doesn't need to be confrontational.

[nicksan]

I've had Police Officers approach me about my gear or what I was doing. I answer politely and have never had a problem with them. None. I have nothing to hide.

One time, I was at D.C. close to the the white house in a completely public area. I had a 5D and 70-200 f2.8 IS with me, and an officer approached me and asked me if I worked for a publication or something. I said "nope, it's just a hobby of mine. My wife thinks I look like an idiot carrying this thing around." Then I laughed. He smiled and said "Well you have a terrific weekend sir". I said "thank you officer."

But they've all been polite to me as well and I am not sure how I would react if I encountered an overzealous officer on a power trip. I'd probably try to avoid confrontation and move on. Not worth the trouble to argue with an Officer like that.

[stathunter]

............
After running the background check he asks "by the way, why are you taking pictures of the kids?"
"Ah...because their my kids...adopted"


Point being, it doesn't need to be confrontational.


Chauncey - that is a great story. Coming from someone who has actually meet you........you don't look like your kids. :) -------my boys still ask when are we going back to see our friends and get another camera. :)

[chauncey]

I...they....we don't look alike? I never noticed that. :lol: Appreciate the comments Scott.

Jon, I went one better than sending him a copy, I sent the Chief a copy along with a copy of my thread portion.
Told the chief to give him a raise...or at least a pat on the back.
Chief wrote back and said a "pat" was good enough...and a copy of the picture. :lol:

[Karl Johnston]

Only once have I been stopped by police ...though they were drug cops and looking for someone else. They asked me what I was doing parked in an out of the way area and I showed them my sunset pictures :) which they said were impressive and went on their way.

I never hear bad stories about RCMP, it only seems to be american or UK ones. Maybe the 9/11 and the bus bombing thing drove them to be so trigger happy on the trigger pullers. Not sure.

I honestly always wonder about the weirdos that call people in who are taking pictures of their kids in a park. I have read 3 stories of this account on POTN so far and each time have the kids belonged to the photographers.

If people think it is "creepy" for a photographer or a parent to take a photograph of their own kids in a park with an SLR...how creepy must we think of them to even THINK what we're doing could be malicious.

Who goes to the trouble to call that kind of thing in anyway? I see people wandering on the street drunk but I never call it in because .. well I just don't really care and it's none of my business. But besides that I see parents playing with their kids in parks and taking pictures of them...so what?

If someone did that to me and I was taking photographs of my own kids (or someone had hired me to take portraits of their kids on location) then I'd be looking to press charges on the narcs for harassment/slander.

[Trainboy]

Yeah, most actual police officers are polite enough, I've only had one bad encounter with them yet. And that was really stupid, telling a 12 year old kid with a K-1000 he can't take photos of trains because of terrorism. Mind you, I was scared crapless at the time...
Ok, here is the first problem:



Grungy looking or not, I haven't heard that having a camera or taking pictures was illegal. If someone calls the police and reports that someone has a camera and is taking pictures, the police should have politely said thank you for your concern, but there is nothing illegal about that. If your grungy looking, then by all means you must be doing something illegal.



I would have politely told the officer to kiss off unless he was going to arrest me and charge me for something, then I would have gotten a lawyer involved. Very poor judgment on that of the officer.

One day we won't be allowed to have cameras in public, for reasons like this.
Catch more flies with honey than vinegar, etc, etc.

[TwoShot]

Ok, here is the first problem:

Grungy looking or not, I haven't heard that having a camera or taking pictures was illegal. If someone calls the police and reports that someone has a camera and is taking pictures, the police should have politely said thank you for your concern, but there is nothing illegal about that. If your grungy looking, then by all means you must be doing something illegal.

I would have politely told the officer to kiss off unless he was going to arrest me and charge me for something, then I would have gotten a lawyer involved. Very poor judgment on that of the officer.

One day we won't be allowed to have cameras in public, for reasons like this.

Ya prolly would have been caused some problems ,with a attitude like that.;)
The man is only doing his job.:cool:
Would you like somebody taking pics of your kids ?

[argyle]

...I would have politely told the officer to kiss off unless he was going to arrest me and charge me for something, then I would have gotten a lawyer involved. Very poor judgment on that of the officer...

Yeah, sure...more "keyboard bravery". The cop was doing his job and from the story, it also seems that he was being polite in the process. Like Chauncey said, it doesn't need to be confrontational.

[FlyingPhotog]

If someone calls in to report something "suspicious," there will be (and should be) a response to check it out. It's not the dispatcher's job to determine the legitimacy of the complaint.

Where it goes from there is as much on the photographer as it is on the cops. Be polite, professional and conversational and 99% of the time it will exactly the same as Chauncey's experience.

[sapearl]

Chauncey, I haven't read any of the other posts yet, but you are one evil S.O.B...... you set that poor officer up - and us also :lol::lol::lol:

Must admit I didn't see all of that coming. But that is a wonderful shot and he was a good sport to go along with things. You'd mentioned about your adopted clan before and I was always curious; thank you for sharing a very nice shot. And who says you have trouble with composition :D. - Stu

[Jon Foster]

Yeah, most actual police officers are polite enough, I've only had one bad encounter with them yet. And that was really stupid, telling a 12 year old kid with a K-1000 he can't take photos of trains because of terrorism. Mind you, I was scared crapless at the time...

Catch more flies with honey than vinegar, etc, etc.

Hahaha... bw!

Jon.

[Southswede]

If someone calls in to report something "suspicious," there will be (and should be) a response to check it out. It's not the dispatcher's job to determine the legitimacy of the complaint.

Where it goes from there is as much on the photographer as it is on the cops. Be polite, professional and conversational and 99% of the time it will exactly the same as Chauncey's experience.

As a 20+ year police officer, I have been on BOTH sides of the camera. I have been dispatched to the photographer and been the photographer dispatched to. This reply is both honest and right.

[Southswede]

Yeah, sure...more "keyboard bravery". The cop was doing his job and from the story, it also seems that he was being polite in the process. Like Chauncey said, it doesn't need to be confrontational.

LOL! He sure is brave behind his keyboard isn't he? LOL!

[yogestee]

Ahhhh,,it's so good living in a country where I can walk around with a camera and shoot anything that moves and not get questioned..Well almost,, but that's another story..

[cdifoto]

Ahhhh,,it's so good living in a country where I can walk around with a camera and shoot anything that moves and not get questioned..Well almost,, but that's another story..
Hey I don't get hassled either. As long as I stay in my own town, I'm good. The cops aren't paid enough around here to care. They get something 10 bucks an hour. No joke. I think they only do it cuz the cars ride nicer than their trucks do.

[birdfromboat]

what about probable cause? what about freedom of speach, press, etc. etc.
I deeply resent any innapropriate accusations by deputized officers or hourly wage private uniformed security. Tell me why you want my ID, tell me you are willing to stand in front of your boss and my lawyer and tell all of us together why you want my ID, and I alone will decide if I am going to give you my ID. Ask me what I am doing and I will tell you, every time. Arrest me and I will cooperate, fully. But ask me to submitt to any kind of search including producing ID, and you had better have a good reason. better than looking kind of grungy and taking pictures of children.

[ryant35]

what about probable cause? what about freedom of speach, press, etc. etc.
I deeply resent any innapropriate accusations by deputized officers or hourly wage private uniformed security. Tell me why you want my ID, tell me you are willing to stand in front of your boss and my lawyer and tell all of us together why you want my ID, and I alone will decide if I am going to give you my ID. Ask me what I am doing and I will tell you, every time. Arrest me and I will cooperate, fully. But ask me to submitt to any kind of search including producing ID, and you had better have a good reason. better than looking kind of grungy and taking pictures of children.

Yeah and if they did arrest you, you could sue them. But you still have to deal with the arrest in the first place, your gear ending up in their hands...

[tonylong]

I am "Mr. Cooperation" when it comes to the police exercising their lawful duty.

The question is, what do we do when the police attempt to deprive us of our lawful rights? It may not be as easy as to say "be nice to the cops", but it definitely is not so easy as to say "be defiant".

In the USA, there is a key constitutional right against unlawful search and seizure, and protecting "due process". Police, when they act on an "ad hoc" basis, many times try to abrogate these rights.

when it comes down to a choice of standing for your rights or giving up your rights, it's not so easy, because standing for your rights can mean illegal detention, which then you would have to sue for compensation. But, it may pay off, not only for your lost time but for lessons learned.

Key points: police do not have the right to prohibit you from photographing in a public place. They do not have the right to seize your pictures, or delete your pictures. They do not have the right even to view your pictures without a legal "suspicion" of cause. And they certainly don't have the right to detain you without cause.

If you are subjected to unlawful police action, you have the right to sue, and if the police are in fact of violating your rights, then you have not just the right to sue, but the moral force to sue, because such action violate our national standards.

But, that being said, don't be an idiot! Mindless fools are not rewarded in the real world:)!

[Southswede]

what about probable cause? what about freedom of speach, press, etc. etc.
I deeply resent any innapropriate accusations by deputized officers or hourly wage private uniformed security. Tell me why you want my ID, tell me you are willing to stand in front of your boss and my lawyer and tell all of us together why you want my ID, and I alone will decide if I am going to give you my ID. Ask me what I am doing and I will tell you, every time. Arrest me and I will cooperate, fully. But ask me to submitt to any kind of search including producing ID, and you had better have a good reason. better than looking kind of grungy and taking pictures of children.

ROFLMAO!! First don't use phrases that you don't know the meaning of "probable cause". Second who cares what you "deeply resent"! LOL!!!

You would be very fun in an encounter! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Southswede]

Yeah and if they did arrest you, you could sue them. But you still have to deal with the arrest in the first place, your gear ending up in their hands...

And I am willing to bet the arrest, if made, would be LEGAL. What could you sue them for?

[chauncey]

Well lets see...I've got 5 cognitively impaired, adoptive, children with me, plus another one at home, which would be put into the system upon my arrest.

Anyone out there ever deal with protective services...they are the epitome of the proverbial pain in the a$$.
Now I have to bail myself out with no resources to do that, then need to hire an attorney to get me and the kids out of the system.

Now you'll want me to hire an attorney and sue...who...that cop was merely doing his job checking out a suspicious person,
the city for employing that cop, a city that I live in and might need that cop.

Yeah, I could win, but at what cost, would it make the emotional well being of my children whole again after watching dad getting arrested and
them being hauled off en masse and then separated into a variety of foster homes.

Wisdom dicates choosing your battles...and not fighting the ones that you would win...but still would lose.

[Southswede]

Well lets see...I've got 5 cognitively impaired, adoptive, children with me, plus another one at home, which would be put into the system upon my arrest.

Anyone out there ever deal with protective services...they are the epitome of the proverbial pain in the a$$.
Now I have to bail myself out with no resources to do that, then need to hire an attorney to get me and the kids out of the system.

Now you'll want me to hire an attorney and sue...who...that cop was merely doing his job checking out a suspicious person,
the city for employing that cop, a city that I live in and might need that cop.

Yeah, I could win, but at what cost, would it make the emotional well being of my children whole again after watching dad getting arrested and
them being hauled off en masse and then separated into a variety of foster homes.

Wisdom dicates choosing your battles...and not fighting the ones that you would win...but still would lose.


You showed your kids a valuable life lesson. You taught them it is ok to talk to the cop who was actually just checking on their well-being. You ended up with a GREAT picture of the cop and your kids (how cool is that!!)

You posted your positive experience. Why let some boneheads post take away from a positive experience? The smiles on your kids faces really tells the story!!

[Jon Foster]

ROFLMAO!! First don't use phrases that you don't know the meaning of "probable cause". Second who cares what you "deeply resent"! LOL!!!

You would be very fun in an encounter! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

And that I would really want to photograph! It would make a great story laid out like a comic strip. The straight emotionless expressions of the LEO's and the crazy look on the "other" persons face... Would it show rage? fear? surprise? It would be a pretty interesting series to capture!

Wouldn't that make a cool series of photo's to put on the wall behind the front desk of a police station? Maybe add a little caption about choosing your battles wisely... ;)

Jon.

[FlyingPhotog]

So, if I'm considered "Press" when I have my camera with me, how come I can't get into any events? ;)

[sapearl]

bw! Very well said Chauncey - remind me to steal your phrase and use it some time. - stu

..............Wisdom dicates choosing your battles...and not fighting the ones that you would win...but still would lose.

[argyle]

bw! Very well said Chauncey - remind me to steal your phrase and use it some time. - stu

Yep...sometimes a Pyrrhic victory isn't all that it's cracked up to be...

[birdfromboat]

ROFLMAO!! First don't use phrases that you don't know the meaning of "probable cause". Second who cares what you "deeply resent"! LOL!!!

You would be very fun in an encounter! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking kind of grungy and having a camera doesn't make you a pediphile. It shouldn't even make you a suspected pediphile. The story turned out nicely, even happily, yes. But an injustice was carried out, and I choose not to ignore it. The ACLU care what I deeply resent, same as they do for you. Thats nothing to LOL at.
As far as being fun in an encounter, I would be the easiest arrest ever made. At the advice of my lawyer, whenever asked for permission to be searched, ask what for and why, and if anything is ever mentioned about an arrest being made, cooperate fully and present both wrists slowly and ask if the officer knows what is being served for lunch. Thats all you can do to protect your right to photograph your kids without being harassed for looking kind of grungy. I just wish more people would do it.

and would I do it in front of MY kids? How else are they going to learn how to keep their freedoms and not allow themselves to be accused of crimes based on the perceptions of dispatchers and passersby? You bet I would.

I have said all I will say here, flame on.

[cdifoto]

ROFLMAO!! First don't use phrases that you don't know the meaning of "probable cause". Second who cares what you "deeply resent"! LOL!!!

You would be very fun in an encounter! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!Looking kind of grungy and having a camera doesn't make you a pediphile. It shouldn't even make you a suspected pediphile. The story turned out nicely, even happily, yes. But an injustice was carried out, and I choose not to ignore it. The ACLU care what I deeply resent, same as they do for you. Thats nothing to LOL at.
As far as being fun in an encounter, I would be the easiest arrest ever made. At the advice of my lawyer, whenever asked for permission to be searched, ask what for and why, and if anything is ever mentioned about an arrest being made, cooperate fully and present both wrists slowly and ask if the officer knows what is being served for lunch. Thats all you can do to protect your right to photograph your kids without being harassed for looking kind of grungy. I just wish more people would do it.

and would I do it in front of MY kids? How else are they going to learn how to keep their freedoms and not allow themselves to be accused of crimes based on the perceptions of dispatchers and passersby? You bet I would.

I have said all I will say here, flame on.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply teach your kids good hygiene? Being clean isn't a bad thing...

[Southswede]

ROFLMAO!! First don't use phrases that you don't know the meaning of "probable cause". Second who cares what you "deeply resent"! LOL!!!

You would be very fun in an encounter! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking kind of grungy and having a camera doesn't make you a pediphile. It shouldn't even make you a suspected pediphile. The story turned out nicely, even happily, yes. But an injustice was carried out, and I choose not to ignore it. The ACLU care what I deeply resent, same as they do for you. Thats nothing to LOL at.
As far as being fun in an encounter, I would be the easiest arrest ever made. At the advice of my lawyer, whenever asked for permission to be searched, ask what for and why, and if anything is ever mentioned about an arrest being made, cooperate fully and present both wrists slowly and ask if the officer knows what is being served for lunch. Thats all you can do to protect your right to photograph your kids without being harassed for looking kind of grungy. I just wish more people would do it.

and would I do it in front of MY kids? How else are they going to learn how to keep their freedoms and not allow themselves to be accused of crimes based on the perceptions of dispatchers and passersby? You bet I would.

I have said all I will say here, flame on.

Pssst! If you have not broken the law no arrest will be made. It is that simple.

"But an injustice was carried out, and I choose not to ignore it." I missed this from the original post. Can you explain where and what the injustice was, that was carried out? I also missed the part where the OP was accused of any crime. Care to explain that too?

Here is an idea, have your lawyer explain a few things to you: reasonable suspicion, probable cause, suspicious activity, basic protections under the fourth and fifth amendments and proof beyond reasonable doubt. Then get back to us....

[neilwood32]

Have to say Chauncey, i think the way you handled things was 100% spot on.

Yes, we can all get indignant and uppity for having LEO asking us what we are doing etc but they are just doing their job and looking out for the good of the community.

Any times I have ever encountered LEO they have been very courteous and polite so why would I be anything other than the same? I would answer their questions in a polite manner and give them the information they were after " Yes officer I was taking photos of the statue/castle/office as photography is my hobby. You would like to see them - of course, there you go".

Why would I just let them see the images? Because it is far quicker and easier, less annoying to myself and the LEO and improves the relationship between photographers and LEO.

Now if i was unlawfully asked to delete my photo's, then i would cause a fuss but this is not the case in this post.

[hollis_f]

[php]Looking kind of grungy and having a camera doesn't make you a pediphile.

Nope, taking pictures of people's feet and getting turned on by them makes you a pediphile.

[canonnoob]

what about probable cause? what about freedom of speach, press, etc. etc.
I deeply resent any innapropriate accusations by deputized officers or hourly wage private uniformed security. Tell me why you want my ID, tell me you are willing to stand in front of your boss and my lawyer and tell all of us together why you want my ID, and I alone will decide if I am going to give you my ID. Ask me what I am doing and I will tell you, every time. Arrest me and I will cooperate, fully. But ask me to submitt to any kind of search including producing ID, and you had better have a good reason. better than looking kind of grungy and taking pictures of children.
again.... suspcious behavior is enough for probable cause...

[canonnoob]

Nope, taking pictures of people's feet and getting turned on by them makes you a pediphile.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply teach your kids good hygiene? Being clean isn't a bad thing...

bw!

ROFL.. I just spit soda all over my monitor!

[canonnoob]

Looking kind of grungy and having a camera doesn't make you a pediphile. It shouldn't even make you a suspected pediphile. The story turned out nicely, even happily, yes. But an injustice was carried out, and I choose not to ignore it. The ACLU care what I deeply resent, same as they do for you. Thats nothing to LOL at.
As far as being fun in an encounter, I would be the easiest arrest ever made. At the advice of my lawyer, whenever asked for permission to be searched, ask what for and why, and if anything is ever mentioned about an arrest being made, cooperate fully and present both wrists slowly and ask if the officer knows what is being served for lunch. Thats all you can do to protect your right to photograph your kids without being harassed for looking kind of grungy. I just wish more people would do it.

and would I do it in front of MY kids? How else are they going to learn how to keep their freedoms and not allow themselves to be accused of crimes based on the perceptions of dispatchers and passersby? You bet I would.

I have said all I will say here, flame on.

again... you have just been proving how you would be so irrogant to the police.. they are just doing their job. if you were called in as a suspicious person, they have every right to ask to see your ID or search.. end of story..

-About the bold: can you explain how that makes you a pedofile.. I have found that many of the pedofiles are not all that grungy looking, in fact many look like normal people... heck I bet there are teachers in your kids school that are pedofiles... :) have anice thought about that one..

[cdifoto]

I love feet.

[canonnoob]

I love feet.
thats nice cdi :)

[cdifoto]

thats nice cdi :)
Yep. I'm a quasi-normal looking pediphile.

[samueli]

LOL! He sure is brave behind his keyboard isn't he? LOL!

Just as brave as you are picking on me from behind your keyboard. And by all means do it from behind the guy who first made the comment, without anything else to support your opinion.

And for the know-it-all in you, I stand my ground to police officers every time. Sometimes they move on or ignore me, sometimes I get handcuffed. I also attend town hall meetings on a regular basis to voice my concerns and talk about police behavior in my hometown. In general, I don't respect police officers. They are given a very large responsibility, yet most do not have the capability to make good decisions. I've seen more than my share of unnecessary actions by officers and will not cooperate with them in situations that this thread talks about. Not to mention that the police departments in my area are loaded with young punks for officers that like to be overly forceful and think law enforcement is a game.

So ya, lets talk about brave...

[samueli]

again... you have just been proving how you would be so irrogant to the police.. they are just doing their job. if you were called in as a suspicious person, they have every right to ask to see your ID or search.. end of story..

-About the bold: can you explain how that makes you a pedofile.. I have found that many of the pedofiles are not all that grungy looking, in fact many look like normal people... heck I bet there are teachers in your kids school that are pedofiles... :) have anice thought about that one..

Your wrong canonnoob, totally wrong. Innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around. Do you like your rights? Keep thinking like you do and you won't have many.

[samueli]

ROFLMAO!! First don't use phrases that you don't know the meaning of "probable cause". Second who cares what you "deeply resent"! LOL!!!

You would be very fun in an encounter! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!Looking kind of grungy and having a camera doesn't make you a pediphile. It shouldn't even make you a suspected pediphile. The story turned out nicely, even happily, yes. But an injustice was carried out, and I choose not to ignore it. The ACLU care what I deeply resent, same as they do for you. Thats nothing to LOL at.
As far as being fun in an encounter, I would be the easiest arrest ever made. At the advice of my lawyer, whenever asked for permission to be searched, ask what for and why, and if anything is ever mentioned about an arrest being made, cooperate fully and present both wrists slowly and ask if the officer knows what is being served for lunch. Thats all you can do to protect your right to photograph your kids without being harassed for looking kind of grungy. I just wish more people would do it.

and would I do it in front of MY kids? How else are they going to learn how to keep their freedoms and not allow themselves to be accused of crimes based on the perceptions of dispatchers and passersby? You bet I would.

I have said all I will say here, flame on.

+10

[Southswede]

again.... suspcious behavior is enough for probable cause...

No it isn't. But it is enough to investigate the scene....

[Southswede]

Just as brave as you are picking on me from behind your keyboard. And by all means do it from behind the guy who first made the comment, without anything else to support your opinion.

And for the know-it-all in you, I stand my ground to police officers every time. Sometimes they move on or ignore me, sometimes I get handcuffed. I also attend town hall meetings on a regular basis to voice my concerns and talk about police behavior in my hometown. In general, I don't respect police officers. They are given a very large responsibility, yet most do not have the capability to make good decisions. I've seen more than my share of unnecessary actions by officers and will not cooperate with them in situations that this thread talks about. Not to mention that the police departments in my area are loaded with young punks for officers that like to be overly forceful and think law enforcement is a game.

So ya, lets talk about brave...

ROFLMAO!!!

[ryant35]

And I don't know what handcuffs feel like around my wrists. I'm proud of that.

I've been pull over years ago just because I was a high school kid an a Camaro, I wasn't uncooperative then, why would I start know with my camera when I am still not doing anything wrong.

[cdifoto]

Just as brave as you are picking on me from behind your keyboard. And by all means do it from behind the guy who first made the comment, without anything else to support your opinion.

And for the know-it-all in you, I stand my ground to police officers every time. Sometimes they move on or ignore me, sometimes I get handcuffed. I also attend town hall meetings on a regular basis to voice my concerns and talk about police behavior in my hometown. In general, I don't respect police officers. They are given a very large responsibility, yet most do not have the capability to make good decisions. I've seen more than my share of unnecessary actions by officers and will not cooperate with them in situations that this thread talks about. Not to mention that the police departments in my area are loaded with young punks for officers that like to be overly forceful and think law enforcement is a game.

So ya, lets talk about brave...
Sounds like rebellion for the sake of rebellion to me. I don't care if a cop asks me what I'm up to anymore than I care if it's a random person on the street. I don't kick up a fuss when the college kid working the register at the beer distributor asks to see my ID either. The ID isn't issued to only be shown to an officer when you're committing a crime.

[samueli]

ROFLMAO!!!

Did I tell a joke?

[Southswede]

And I don't know what handcuffs feel like around my wrists. I'm proud of that.

I've been pull over years ago just because I was a high school kid an a Camaro, I wasn't uncooperative then, why would I start know with my camera when I am still not doing anything wrong.

And if you are not doing anything wrong, the LEO will go on his way. Which is exactly what happened with the OP's situation.

[Southswede]

Did I tell a joke?

You did and are!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!

[ryant35]

And if you are not doing anything wrong, the LEO will go on his way. Which is exactly what happened with the OP's situation.

Which is what happens every time. Even when I was detained for 2 hours in Long Beach Harbor after I was shooting the shipping yards. It sucked but at least they are out looking for suspicious characters. IE anyone doing anything but driving a truck and working there.

[samueli]

Sounds like rebellion for the sake of rebellion to me. I don't care if a cop asks me what I'm up to anymore than I care if it's a random person on the street. I don't kick up a fuss when the college kid working the register at the beer distributor asks to see my ID either. The ID isn't issued to only be shown to an officer when you're committing a crime.

Not really. As a country, as a people, we are constantly losing rights. Day by day, year by year. We just don't notice because we're too busy with our own lives to see it or even care for that matter. I care. Maybe my stubbornness won't make a difference in the long run, but I am not at anyone's mercy. Police officers or not. If your a police officer and you need to intervene on a crime that I'm commiting, have at it. If not, go away. If you arrested me and where wrong, then you'll have to own up to that mistake. Thats what I meant in my previous post about most police officers are not qualified to make these type of decisions.

I have every right to be wherever I want as long as I'm not infringing on someone elses rights. And I greatly respect the rights of other folks.

The police officer in the OP's post could have simply observed for a moment or even 10 of those moments, and could have come to the same conclusion without ever approaching the OP.

[samueli]

You did and are!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!

You must be a real brain trust if the best you can reply with is childish internet abbreviations. Are you incapable of putting your opinions to words?

[Southswede]

Not really. As a country, as a people, we are constantly losing rights. Day by day, year by year. We just don't notice because we're too busy with our own lives to see it or even care for that matter. I care. Maybe my stubbornness won't make a difference in the long run, but I am not at anyone's mercy. Police officers or not. If your a police officer and you need to intervene on a crime that I'm commiting, have at it. If not, go away. If you arrested me and where wrong, then you'll have to own up to that mistake. Thats what I meant in my previous post about most police officers are not qualified to make these type of decisions.

I have every right to be wherever I want as long as I'm not infringing on someone elses rights. And I greatly respect the rights of other folks.

The police officer in the OP's post could have simply observed for a moment or even 10 of those moments, and could have come to the same conclusion without ever approaching the OP.

ROFLMAO!!! "Your" really funny!!!!

[sapearl]

Hey.... I just noticed your avatar's motto has changed. When did that happen?

Yep. I'm a quasi-normal looking pediphile.

[cdifoto]

Not really. As a country, as a people, we are constantly losing rights. Day by day, year by year. We just don't notice because we're too busy with our own lives to see it or even care for that matter. I care. Maybe my stubbornness won't make a difference in the long run, but I am not at anyone's mercy. Police officers or not. If your a police officer and you need to intervene on a crime that I'm commiting, have at it. If not, go away. If you arrested me and where wrong, then you'll have to own up to that mistake. Thats what I meant in my previous post about most police officers are not qualified to make these type of decisions.

I have every right to be wherever I want as long as I'm not infringing on someone elses rights. And I greatly respect the rights of other folks.

The police officer in the OP's post could have simply observed for a moment or even 10 of those moments, and could have come to the same conclusion without ever approaching the OP.
Soooooo you're anti-authority then I take it?

I've never seen a police cruiser with "To Catch Red-Handed" on the side but I have seen them with "To Protect and To Serve". There's more to protecting and serving than just arresting blatant crimes. Inquiries into suspicious activity is part of that. Your lack of cooperation and belligerent defiance does nothing but elevate that suspicion.

There's no such thing as a right to not be inconvenienced. Identify yourself and answer the officer's questions and everyone involved has an even better chance of sleeping in their own bed that night.

[cdifoto]

Hey.... I just noticed your avatar's motto has changed. When did that happen?
Not sure exactly but I think it's been at least a few weeks.

[neil_r]

again... you have just been proving how you would be so irrogant to the police.. they are just doing their job. if you were called in as a suspicious person, they have every right to ask to see your ID or search.. end of story..

-About the bold: can you explain how that makes you a pedofile.. I have found that many of the pedofiles are not all that grungy looking, in fact many look like normal people... heck I bet there are teachers in your kids school that are pedofiles... :) have anice thought about that one..

Is there a spelling test to be a pedophile? I guess some people would be too irrogant to pass it

[samueli]

Soooooo you're anti-authority then I take it?

I've never seen a police cruiser with "To Catch Red-Handed" on the side but I have seen them with "To Protect and To Serve". There's more to protecting and serving than just arresting blatant crimes. Inquiries into suspicious activity is part of that. Your lack of cooperation and belligerent defiance does nothing but elevate that suspicion.

There's no such thing as a right to not be inconvenienced. Identify yourself and answer the officer's questions and everyone involved has an even better chance of sleeping in their own bed that night.

Someone creeping around house with a flashlight at night is suspicious. Someone peeking into cars in a parking lot is suspicious. Someone hiding what they are doing when people come around is suspicious. Someone taking pictures of his kids is not. And actually, I'm not going to fault the officer, but the dingaling who made the report and judged a person simply by looks. And that in itself shows a problem. Someone has the right to inconvenience someone else simply because they don't like how they look. Think about it people.

[ryant35]

Someone creeping around house with a flashlight at night is suspicious. Someone peeking into cars in a parking lot is suspicious. Someone hiding what they are doing when people come around is suspicious. Someone taking pictures of his kids is not. And actually, I'm not going to fault the officer, but the dingaling who made the report and judged a person simply by looks. And that in itself shows a problem. Someone has the right to inconvenience someone else simply because they don't like how they look. Think about it people.

I think the judging is done by the pretentious parents at the park, not by the police. They are just responding to the report they are dispatched to.

[Southswede]

You must be a real brain trust if the best you can reply with is childish internet abbreviations. Are you incapable of putting your opinions to words?

Why would I try to engage in a legitimate conversation with someone who does not understand the law, let alone law enforcement?

[alduin]

Someone creeping around house with a flashlight at night is suspicious. Someone peeking into cars in a parking lot is suspicious. Someone hiding what they are doing when people come around is suspicious. Someone taking pictures of his kids is not.

How is the officer supposed to know that the kids the "suspicious person" is photographing are his own? That'd require some form of identification to verify, no?

[Southswede]

Someone creeping around house with a flashlight at night is suspicious. Someone peeking into cars in a parking lot is suspicious. Someone hiding what they are doing when people come around is suspicious. Someone taking pictures of his kids is not. And actually, I'm not going to fault the officer, but the dingaling who made the report and judged a person simply by looks. And that in itself shows a problem. Someone has the right to inconvenience someone else simply because they don't like how they look. Think about it people.

So do tell: what does a criminal look like? Because after 20+ years of being a cop, I still cannot answer this question. Since you are so qualified, please tell us.

[Southswede]

How is the officer supposed to know that the kids the "suspicious person" is photographing are his own? That'd require some form of identification to verify, no?

Now STOP THAT! There is no common sense here!!

[alduin]

Now STOP THAT! There is no common sense here!!

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

[Southswede]

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!

LOL!!!

CALL 911!! Oh wait, you can't do that. If you do then you know who will show up. They'll just ask a bunch of questions and you know where that leads: loss of your rights!!!

[alduin]

Ok, shtick aside... It's as much the attitude of the officer as it is that of the citizen. An ego-tripping officer will put a citizen on the defensive just as quickly as a snotty guy with a camera will ruffle a cop's feathers.

Yeah, we have rights. If the police only went after the open and shut cases, though, the world would be a much scarier place.

[Southswede]

Ok, shtick aside... It's as much the attitude of the officer as it is that of the citizen. An ego-tripping officer will put a citizen on the defensive just as quickly as a snotty guy with a camera will ruffle a cop's feathers.

Yeah, we have rights. If the police only went after the open and shut cases, though, the world would be a much scarier place.

The term reasonableness is used with the actions taken as a cop. Like you just said without using the word....

[Mark001]

Did I tell a joke?

You did and are!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!

Honestly, from your responses in this thread, I would have a hard time believing you were a person with 20+ years as a police officer.

[samueli]

So do tell: what does a criminal look like? Because after 20+ years of being a cop, I still cannot answer this question. Since you are so qualified, please tell us.

Now I see why you give quoted me with such ignorant replies. Part of my case in point. On the other hand, 20+ years. Hmm, so you don't have enough experience to evaluate a situation without immediately assuming the person is a creep? You couldn't tell by the reactions of the children that this man would indeed be their father or not? Not enough common sense there to pick up clues?

I'm not trying to say that all situations shouldn't be approached, I'm not saying that officers hands should be tied for the sake of inconvenience - like many folks are poking fun at me in this thread. I just don't like the initial assumption the officer took in this thread, and I would be seriously offended on a personal level. Not so much about authority, but personal, one to one respect - which most officers seem to forget about (in my experience). And that, is the reason for any activism on my part and my zealousness in this thread.

[samueli]

How is the officer supposed to know that the kids the "suspicious person" is photographing are his own? That'd require some form of identification to verify, no?

And he is going to verify that identification against the ID's the children are carrying? Does his ID list his children w/ photos? Not a very solid argument I'm afraid.

[rdenney]

Now I see why you give quoted me with such ignorant replies. Part of my case in point. On the other hand, 20+ years. Hmm, so you don't have enough experience to evaluate a situation without immediately assuming the person is a creep? You couldn't tell by the reactions of the children that this man would indeed be their father or not? Not enough common sense there to pick up clues?

Think about this the other way. Let's say that Chauncey turned out to be a creep. The cop, on seeing this guy photographing what any reasonable person would assume were not his kids, decides to follow your advice, and not pursue it. Then, later, our friend turns out to be a kid-toucher and one of the kids is now scarred for life.

There will be an investigation. Professionally indignant people (people like you, I would submit, and probably in all honesty a bit like me) will discover that a cop investigated a suspicious person report and didn't even ask questions. The cop can say, "He wasn't doing anything illegal" all he wants, but he'll still probably lose his job or at least lose his reputation as a cop.

The fact is that our laws put cops in a tough position, because they are more likely to be held accountable for not catching the bad guys as they are for protecting their rights. And it will be your friends and neighbors who will be judging him. It just depends on whose ox is being gored.

Thus, a cop is strongly disincentivized to let such things go, and strongly inventivized to protect himself from being found negligent by do-gooders after the fact.

It is reasonable for a cop to ask a person's identity. It is reasonable to ask them what they are doing. It is reasonable to make a judgment about the situation based on how they respond. You are asking for reasonableness, but in fact if cops followed your rules of reasonableness, they will likely get punished if things go badly, and it will be our peers doing the punishing.

Rick "not excusing the 'savior-of-society' attitude expressed by too many cops" Denney

[alduin]

And he is going to verify that identification against the ID's the children are carrying? Does his ID list his children w/ photos? Not a very solid argument I'm afraid.

If the kids have ID, sure. If not, I'd say politely asking the kids would give the officer a decent lay of the land. In this case, with the kids and photographer not looking anything like each other, the officer might need more information and may just have to interact with the folks involved to get it.

[Southswede]

Honestly, from your responses in this thread, I would have a hard time believing you were a person with 20+ years as a police officer.

So what? I have little concern with what you do or don't have a hard time believing. People who have no clue about a topic on which they speak make me laugh.

By the way, care to answer my question: what does a criminal look like?

[Southswede]

And he is going to verify that identification against the ID's the children are carrying? Does his ID list his children w/ photos? Not a very solid argument I'm afraid.

Maybe not but it does give the LEO an idea who he is dealing with, doesn't it?

[Southswede]

If the kids have ID, sure. If not, I'd say politely asking the kids would give the officer a decent lay of the land. In this case, with the kids and photographer not looking anything like each other, the officer might need more information and may just have to interact with the folks involved to get it.

Hmmmm.....more common sense.

[Southswede]

Think about this the other way. Let's say that Chauncey turned out to be a creep. The cop, on seeing this guy photographing what any reasonable person would assume were not his kids, decides to follow your advice, and not pursue it. Then, later, our friend turns out to be a kid-toucher and one of the kids is now scarred for life.

There will be an investigation. Professionally indignant people (people like you, I would submit, and probably in all honesty a bit like me) will discover that a cop investigated a suspicious person report and didn't even ask questions. The cop can say, "He wasn't doing anything illegal" all he wants, but he'll still probably lose his job or at least lose his reputation as a cop.

The fact is that our laws put cops in a tough position, because they are more likely to be held accountable for not catching the bad guys as they are for protecting their rights. And it will be your friends and neighbors who will be judging him. It just depends on whose ox is being gored.

Thus, a cop is strongly disincentivized to let such things go, and strongly inventivized to protect himself from being found negligent by do-gooders after the fact.

It is reasonable for a cop to ask a person's identity. It is reasonable to ask them what they are doing. It is reasonable to make a judgment about the situation based on how they respond. You are asking for reasonableness, but in fact if cops followed your rules of reasonableness, they will likely get punished if things go badly, and it will be our peers doing the punishing.

Rick "not excusing the 'savior-of-society' attitude expressed by too many cops" Denney

You sir took the time (and had the patience) to explain what I wasn't going to do.

Oh and might I add (with my alleged experience) well done!!

[chauncey]

All to often we've heard the "excuse" from the police that "we can't do anything because he isn't breaking the law"
I, for one would accept a little more aggressiveness in exchange for a little more security.
But then the problem would be, were to draw the line in the sand, taking into consideration the police are humans, which in and of itself, makes them fallible.

In the words of one our great, home grown philosophers, Rodney King, "why can't we all get along?" :lol: :lol:

[samueli]

Here is the last thought I want to send out- those who would trade freedom for temporary security deserve neither-Ben Franklin

I was just going to post that.

I'm also glad I'm not the only one who isn't afraid to question back our law enforcement officials if we feel we're been questioned unnecessarily or refuse to be inconvenienced just because someone is uncomfortable with our appearance.

[Southswede]

what about probable cause? what about freedom of speach, press, etc. etc.
I deeply resent any innapropriate accusations by deputized officers or hourly wage private uniformed security. Tell me why you want my ID, tell me you are willing to stand in front of your boss and my lawyer and tell all of us together why you want my ID, and I alone will decide if I am going to give you my ID. Ask me what I am doing and I will tell you, every time. Arrest me and I will cooperate, fully. But ask me to submitt to any kind of search including producing ID, and you had better have a good reason. better than looking kind of grungy and taking pictures of children.



Agreed. It is tough to be a cop. My son is one, my daughter is engaged to one, his father is our county sherrif. Reasonableness is a sought after commodity on the various departments they serve on. It is hard to come by.
that said, here is where I think we differ in our opinions of when it is and when it isn't OK to demand ID based on opinions derived from appearance and apparant activities. The man was taking pictures of smiling happy kids, but by his own admission, he looks a little grungy and unkempt.
I would hope that just a little bit of observation might be enough to satisfy the curiosity of any cop, especially one with 20+ years (thanks) experience.

The man agreed to produce ID when asked when he got a drivers license. He agreed if he applied for a concealed carry permit that he can be asked for and must produce ID at any time. If he drives a truck he has to be able to show a CDL, if he goes fishing, a license to fish, etc. etc.
No one can expect him to produce ID for using a camera, for being with his kids, for taking their pictures while appearing 'unkempt'.
He cooperated, the officer got a pat on the back, nice story. I would not be so ready to produce ID or show my photos. Not until I had a full explanation of why I was being asked. If I was told that the only reason I was being searched was because someone had seen me and called me in, I would question the probable cause, but continue to answer all questions truthfully. If it escalated beyond a question and answer session to a show me your ID or else proposition, you would have the pleasure of arresting me if that was the or else. You tell me what the charge would be.

Man, I can't beleive I got drawn back into this thread.

Here is the last thought I want to send out- those who would trade freedom for temporary security deserve neither-Ben Franklin

For someone who has family in law enforcement (claims to have anyway), your first post sure was written with an arrogant and condescending tone....I wonder what your son and future son-in-law would do if you acted out your first post I quoted. But that would be different.....right?

[cnsconnor84]

I agree whole heartedly with birdfromboat and samueli. I hear the argument all the time "if your not doing anything wrong there's nothing to hide" but to me that's not good enough. If i'm doing something wrong ,arrest me. If not, leave me alone.

[chauncey]

And during your incarceration, what might have happened to your children? Or does that even matter to you?

[Mark001]

Honestly, from your responses in this thread, I would have a hard time believing you were a person with 20+ years as a police officer.

So what? I have little concern with what you do or don't have a hard time believing. People who have no clue about a topic on which they speak make me laugh.


I really hope your attitude is not typical of other law enforcement officers.

[Southswede]

I agree whole heartedly with birdfromboat and samueli. I hear the argument all the time "if your not doing anything wrong there's nothing to hide" but to me that's not good enough. If i'm doing something wrong ,arrest me. If not, leave me alone.

So you are saying birdfromboat's son and soon to be son-in-law should not question you and just let you be? Even if there is a reasonable suspicion to believe you are doing something wrong (which is what chauncey said was present: reasonable suspicion.)

Without talking to you, do you think his son and son-in-law to be could do their job to their best? Or doesn't that matter to you?

[Southswede]

I really hope your attitude is not typical of other law enforcement officers.

I think you will find that in life, you tend to get what you give......get it?

[neil_r]

Keyboard warriors protect their rights :-)

[Southswede]

Keyboard warriors protect their rights :-)

LOL! You are so right!!

Cheers to you sir!

[cnsconnor84]

There would be no incarceration, you did nothing wrong. I don't think you handled the situation wrong. I may have done the same thing. I just don't like that it happens.

[Southswede]

There would be no incarceration, you did nothing wrong. I don't think you handled the situation wrong. I may have done the same thing. I just don't like that it happens.

I would agree with you here! The fact of the matter is we all live in a world we never created. In that world there are people who seek to harm others. As a result of these people wanting to warm others, some stand up and say "not today" and do our best to try to stop them.

People are, have and always will question the way in which we try to stop those who seek to harm others. It is really as simple as that......

[samueli]

And during your incarceration, what might have happened to your children? Or does that even matter to you?

Let me preface my answer with the fact that I respect you and the choice you personally made for the love of your children. I'd also like to apologize for being the original dissenter that changed the tone of this thread.

But if it was my situation, I hope for their sake they treat my children like princes and princesses. Otherwise I would bring every resource I could muster up to bear on those that thought it reasonable to destroy a day in the park with my family because someone judged me on my appearance. What that would end up being I don't know, but it would be at the top of my list until my children and myself received adequate satisfaction. I personally wouldn't back down just to keep everything candy coated for my children.

[Southswede]

Let me preface my answer with the fact that I respect you and the choice you personally made for the love of your children. I'd also like to apologize for being the original dissenter that changed the tone of this thread.

But if it was my situation, I hope for their sake they treat my children like princes and princesses. Otherwise I would bring every resource I could muster up to bear on those that thought it reasonable to destroy a day in the park with my family because someone judged me on my appearance. What that would end up being I don't know, but it would be at the top of my list until my children and myself received adequate satisfaction. I personally wouldn't back down just to keep everything candy coated for my children.

So how would you go about seeking your revenge on the anonymous concerned citizen who phoned in the complaint?

[cdifoto]

Let me preface my answer with the fact that I respect you and the choice you personally made for the love of your children. I'd also like to apologize for being the original dissenter that changed the tone of this thread.

But if it was my situation, I hope for their sake they treat my children like princes and princesses. Otherwise I would bring every resource I could muster up to bear on those that thought it reasonable to destroy a day in the park with my family because someone judged me on my appearance. What that would end up being I don't know, but it would be at the top of my list until my children and myself received adequate satisfaction. I personally wouldn't back down just to keep everything candy coated for my children.
Buuuuuut....


If you handled it the way chauncey did, the day in the park with your children wouldn't be destroyed. No revenge necessary. A couple minutes worth of conversation with a law enforcement officer doesn't constitute a destroyed day.

[samueli]

People are, have and always will question the way in which we try to stop those who seek to harm others. It is really as simple as that......

Something I can agree with :)

You should expect that though. You as an officer of the law are given a great amount of freedom in your decision making, and your decisions can easily be affected by your life outside of work, your current mood, or maybe even being annoyed because you needed to use a restroom before you got the call, no? Not to mention charged with upholding laws in some cases that may not be equitable to or welcomed by everyone.

Those in charge have been granted power to scrutinize the people for the sake of safety and order. But the people also have a right to scrutinize back, and I am one of those folks who actively does.

[neil_r]

This is nonsense, I was not going to post as this thread was just too crazy but hey I have changed my mind.

What is more important your "feelings" being hurt by a misunderstanding that can be sorted out with a simple explanation and the showing of some ID, or the safety and well being of children.

Were you not the parent and the adults motives were not so pure then the right thing was done, as it turned out it was a misunderstanding, but whatever way you look at it, the children were safe, and for me that is more important than your adult hurt feelings and oh so righteous indignation.

[Southswede]

Something I can agree with :)

You should expect that though. You as an officer of the law are given a great amount of freedom in your decision making, and your decisions can easily be affected by your life outside of work, your current mood, or maybe even being annoyed because you needed to use a restroom before you got the call, no? Not to mention charged with upholding laws in some cases that may not be equitable to or welcomed by everyone.

Those in charge have been granted power to scrutinize the people for the sake of safety and order. But the people also have a right to scrutinize back, and I am one of those folks who actively does.

Well I am sure you will get what you give......

[samueli]

This is nonsense.

Tomatoe, tomotoe. Maybe non-sense to you. This isn't about my adult feelings, poor little me and my day or anything quite as self centered. It's about standing up for ones self. But I digress at this point and apologize for letting my fury drive my participation in this thread.

[samueli]

Well I am sure you will get what you give......

Exactly, so if I question your authority or decision making as a public servant I'm going to have my head slammed on the hood of your car. If I stand up for myself for not doing anything wrong, only looking unkept I'm going to have your knee in my back with my face in the dirt. Got it.

[neil_r]

I am out of here I will let you "Land of the free, home of the brave" chaps to slug it out between yourselves.

[Southswede]

This isn't about my adult feelings, poor little me and my day or anything quite as self centered. It's about standing up for ones self.



LOL! I love this!!! Talk about a contradicting oneself! LOL!

[Southswede]

I am out of here I will let you "Land of the free, home of the brave" chaps to slug it out between yourselves.

Are you kidding? Neil this is good clean fun!! lol!

[Southswede]

Exactly, so if I question your authority or decision making as a public servant I'm going to have my head slammed on the hood of your car. If I stand up for myself for not doing anything wrong, only looking unkept I'm going to have your knee in my back with my face in the dirt. Got it.

LOL!!!! I'm sure only the necessary force will be used, when taking you into custody...LOL!

[chauncey]

Have we hit China yet? :lol:

[samueli]

LOL! I love this!!! Talk about a contradicting oneself! LOL!

No contradiction at all. My point is not about the lost day in the park. The lost day in the park is but a consequence. As someone who should be more observant than the average, you failed to notice that.

[Southswede]

Have we hit China yet? :lol:

Nope not yet. But I think I can get samueli to dig a little faster. We should be there by morning! LOL!

[Southswede]

No contradiction at all. My point is not about the lost day in the park. The lost day in the park is but a consequence. As someone who should be more observant than the average, you failed to notice that.

Oh I see you meant the "royal" oneself! LOL!!!

But I have to tell you, your irrational insecurities have been a treat to play with!!

But enough of this fun for me too!

[samueli]

There is no digging. All my points are completely valid. They are not the majority of opinion, but they are valid. Anyone can handle a similar situation as they choose. Chauncey did what he thought best and that is commendable. Other will do what they think is best and is equally commendable. I would do what I would do and it would not turn out well for the immediate. But I am way to stubborn and I don't just idly respect authority for the sake of authority. I or anyone else is not below the law.

Way too many officers make poor decisions; way too many officers are allowed to become officers when they should've been screened out in the beginning. Way to many officers have a power trip and think people don't have any rights. I bet southswede knows a few on his very own team, and I bet southswede really does understand what I'm getting at.

[FlyingPhotog]

There is no digging. All my points are completely valid. They are not the majority of opinion, but they are valid. Anyone can handle a similar situation as they choose. Chauncey did what he thought best and that is commendable. Other will do what they think is best and is equally commendable. I would do what I would do and it would not turn out well for the immediate. But I am way to stubborn and I don't just idly respect authority for the sake of authority. I or anyone else is not below the law.

Way too many officers make poor decisions; way too many officers are allowed to become officers when they should've been screened out in the beginning. Way to many officers have a power trip and think people don't have any rights. I bet southswede knows a few on his very own team, and I bet southswede really does understand what I'm getting at.

Way Too any WAGs
Way Too Many Assumptions
Way Too Many Blanket Generalizations
Way Too Much Anger

You don't like Cops...we get that. Rather than just sit behind your monitor espousing these theories, how about some concrete alternatives?

You're Police Chief for a day... Ready? Go...

[sapearl]

I really need to ask: have these things actually happened to you? Seriously?

Exactly, so if I question your authority or decision making as a public servant I'm going to have my head slammed on the hood of your car. If I stand up for myself for not doing anything wrong, only looking unkept I'm going to have your knee in my back with my face in the dirt. Got it.

[rdenney]

You as an officer of the law are given a great amount of freedom in your decision making, and your decisions can easily be affected by your life outside of work, your current mood, or maybe even being annoyed because you needed to use a restroom before you got the call, no?

No. Cops actually have very narrow leeway and must be on alert at all moments not to stray one way towards letting criminal activity slip through their fingers or the other way into invading the rights of the innocent. The law provides narrow enough solution space there, but public accountability, which is as fickle as the bloviating of late-night news shows, often provide no solution space between those boundaries. That's where a polite word from an officer, and a polite response from a reasonable citizen, utterly solve a problem created for them by others. Of course, the lapse of civility can occur on both sides, causing the situation to escalate unnecessarily. I ask lots of people their name with no right to know it, just out of friendliness, and sometimes because I don't trust them in a situation and want to. They don't have to tell me, but if they choose not to, that says something about them as people.

In the situation reported concerning the photographer at the Boston Harbor, the police were not polite, did not treat the photographer respectfully, and demanded that he destroy his images. That's an utterly different situation.

Now, I have a question for Chauncey: What if they hadn't been your children? What would have happened?

I photographed a small boy attempted to pet a baby lamb at Mount Vernon yesterday. Nobody complained, but I have an upstanding look about me. What if the father had objected? I would have apologized and walked away. What if a security guard had asked my business? I would have answered politely.

But what if he demanded that I erase my picture? Now, that's another matter altogether. Photography is expressly allowed on the Mount Vernon grounds outside the home.

The burden of reasonableness is born by all involved in a confrontation.

I would like to make one final and extremely important point: The law does not define "reasonableness". The law sets a minimum standard. Reasonableness is how we get through life without forcing people up against those standards at every turn. But a respectful response depends on a respectful request, and unfortunately not all cops understand that.

Rick "right of way must be yielded, not taken" Denney

[gh patriot]

Here is the last thought I want to send out- those who would trade freedom for temporary security deserve neither-Ben Franklin


+1

Amen

[chauncey]

Would have been taking pics of the ducks and turkeys and gulls, not someone elses child.

But maybe a ladies foot...provided it was well formed. :lol:

He who quotes others has no thoughts of their own.

[gh patriot]

I am out of here I will let you "Land of the free, home of the brave" chaps to slug it out between yourselves.


Well, at least home of the brave.

[FlyingPhotog]

If y'all are going to quote Franklin, at least get it right:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[gh patriot]

If y'all are going to quote Franklin, at least get it right:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Isn't that the King James Version? :p

[FlyingPhotog]

Isn't that the King James Version? :p

Um no, it's the accurate version... ;)

[gh patriot]

He who quotes others has no thoughts of their own.


Im sure this is a quote as well.
Dont try and tell me this is an origional thought.

[gh patriot]

Um no, it's the accurate version... ;)


Seriously, thanks for the correction, much appreciated.

[neilwood32]

For those that quote historical figures from times gone by - just think for a second about whether the person would still make that statement today.

Im quite sure he would be all for liberty, free speech etc but i would bet that he would not make the same speech now. We are in a vastly different world to the one that Franklin etc occupied.

Rights are very good to have but so is civility.

Chauncey realised that the officer was just doing his job, checking up on a "suspicious" occurance as he himself admitted.

As for the police having too much leeway to work with, not if they are anything like the police here - breath the wrong way and they have to file a report!!

[Jon Foster]

ROFLMAO!! First don't use phrases that you don't know the meaning of "probable cause". Second who cares what you "deeply resent"! LOL!!!

You would be very fun in an encounter! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!Looking kind of grungy and having a camera doesn't make you a pediphile. It shouldn't even make you a suspected pediphile. The story turned out nicely, even happily, yes. But an injustice was carried out, and I choose not to ignore it. The ACLU care what I deeply resent, same as they do for you. Thats nothing to LOL at.
As far as being fun in an encounter, I would be the easiest arrest ever made. At the advice of my lawyer, whenever asked for permission to be searched, ask what for and why, and if anything is ever mentioned about an arrest being made, cooperate fully and present both wrists slowly and ask if the officer knows what is being served for lunch. Thats all you can do to protect your right to photograph your kids without being harassed for looking kind of grungy. I just wish more people would do it.

and would I do it in front of MY kids? How else are they going to learn how to keep their freedoms and not allow themselves to be accused of crimes based on the perceptions of dispatchers and passersby? You bet I would.

I have said all I will say here, flame on.

I'm not going to flame you. I actually agree with what you said. But in this particular case, from the way it sounds, there wasn't a big issue.

Jon.

[Jaymz]

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/laxlacks/2978409820059944061S500x500Q85.jpg

[Jon Foster]

By the way, care to answer my question: what does a criminal look like?

I know the answer to this one! A criminal looks like every single person out there. for example, follow anyone driving a car long enough and they WILL break the law. Probably without even knowing it but still, they will do it.

Jon.

[ryant35]

Does LASO always park on the sidewalk?

They do in downtown where there isn't any room to park safely in the street.

[Jaymz]

I almost never have to pull out ID when a local officer shows up. I know all of them (on good terms), a couple of them I am very close friends with for years now.

In the few times I have had the police called on me, they show up. Say Hi Jaymz, whatcha doing? I respond shooting. They say usually tell me about the call to come out then we BS about personal stuff. They leave. Never once have I been asked to show my shots. I would if asked, but thats because I am friends with them. If it was an officer I didnt know I would question them, in a respectful manner and take it from there. If they respects me I will respect them.

Being friends with the police has its advantages. Good thing too, I dont exactly fit the image of an upstanding person :p

I can see both sides of everyones opinion.

[Jon Foster]

Man, we have really hijacked this thread. Sorry Chauncey!

Jon.

[sapearl]

Chauncey, did you think this was going to happen when you pulled the pin this time ;)?

[chauncey]

gh patriotQuote:
""Originally Posted by chauncey http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7770604#post7770604)
He who quotes others has no thoughts of their own."


"Im sure this is a quote as well.
Dont try and tell me this is an origional thought.""

Yes it is, Why would you suggest otherwise, are you not capable of independent thought? Do you have "spell check"?

Stu, this thread reminds me of a Rube Goldberg perpetual motion machine that would need Stephen Hawkings to realign the original intent. :lol: :lol:

[sapearl]

Chauncey, one can only imagine the visual on that one, with a little bit of Escher thrown in for the obfuscation :lol::lol::lol:.


.......Stu, this thread reminds me of a Rube Goldberg perpetual motion machine that would need Stephen Hawkins to realign the original intent. :lol: :lol:

[pgb2ad54]

I was living in Charlotte NC at the time, about a block away from my work I noticed a nice view of charlotte downtown. On my day off, I park my car in the neighboor hood, and walk onto the bridge, to snap a few pictures. Nex thing i know a cruser pulls up, "what are you doing?" "Taking pictures!" I say, I look into the cops window, and its one of the cops that comes into the restaurant all the time. We both just got a good laughs. He told me they recieved a dozen phone call about a terrorist taking pictures off the bridge. Haha A terrorsit with my 20D!

[gh patriot]

I was living in Charlotte NC at the time, about a block away from my work I noticed a nice view of charlotte downtown. On my day off, I park my car in the neighboor hood, and walk onto the bridge, to snap a few pictures. Nex thing i know a cruser pulls up, "what are you doing?" "Taking pictures!" I say, I look into the cops window, and its one of the cops that comes into the restaurant all the time. We both just got a good laughs. He told me they recieved a dozen phone call about a terrorist taking pictures off the bridge. Haha A terrorsit with my 20D!



Awesome story, thanks for sharing. Well you did have a "canon" aimed at a bridge!:lol:

[neil_r]

I think I said this somewhere else on here but keep your eye out for a load of great camera gear coming onto E-bay. Al Quieda have sacked all their photographers and they are selling all their gear off. Apparently Osama has discovered Google Earth / Maps / Street View and he reckons that their photography branch is now surplus to requirements.

[neilwood32]

I think I said this somewhere else on here but keep your eye out for a load of great camera gear coming onto E-bay. Al Quieda have sacked all their photographers and they are selling all their gear off. Apparently Osama has discovered Google Earth / Maps / Street View and he reckons that their photography branch is now surplus to requirements.

bw!

Thanks for that! :lol:I just spat my coffee out all over the screen and keyboard! Any ideas how to remove coffee from a keyboard?

I'm of the opinion that working with Police is better than trying to be awkward with them.

Make love not war!
Make pictures not fights!:lol:

[chauncey]

dishwasher works just fine. :lol:

[T.D.]

Folks, these types of threads always seem to veer off-topic and onto political stuff. You all know that doesn't work here. Let's get back on topic and stay out of the political stuff.

Thanks.

[20droger]

This thread has a topic?!!!

[WaltA]

With all due respect to chauncey, I think the topic WAS political.

[chauncey]

Aw geez mom, you never let us have any fun. :lol: