Tilt and Shift lenses

[Rense]

Hello,

My favorite photography stuff dealer has 3 Tilt and Shift lenses of Canon:
Canon TS-E 24/3.5 Eu 1099.00
Canon TS-E 45/2.8 Eu 1159.00
Canon TS-E 90/2.8 Eu 1169.00

I want to do some exterior architecture photo's. Wich one should I take?

[Jon]

The 24. You normally don't have the working distance you'd need for the others and you'll get more effect from the tilts and shifts with a shorter lens.

[Rense]

Jon,
Many thanks for your quick response!
Are there any other factors (such as sharpness and vignetting) to include in the final decision?

[PacAce]

Jon,
Many thanks for your quick response!
Are there any other factors (such as sharpness and vignetting) to include in the final decision?
For what it's worth, the 24 does have a red stripe around the front (it's an L lens) and the others are not, even though they are all in the about the same price category. ;)

[psk4363]

Take a look at this site, one I've used many times for lens evaluations: -

http://www.photodo.com/nav/prodindex.html

[robertwgross]

Yes, the 24mm version.

For that matter, it is the only tilt-shift lens I've seen used. It did seem very "fiddly".

---Bob Gross---

[Jim_T]

I've never used a tilt-shift lens... But I'm wondering..

Can perspective correction not be done just as well with modern software ?

[lancea]

Can perspective correction not be done just as well with modern software ?
I'd like to hear what the experts say about that as well ... But just thinking of my own limited experience - whenever I adjust perspective I'm not often happy with the results after cropping the image back into a rectangle. The subject usually occupies too much of the frame. However I've certainly found software correction useful when only a minor correction is required.

[PacAce]

I've never used a tilt-shift lens... But I'm wondering..

Can perspective correction not be done just as well with modern software ?
Perspecitve can be controlled via software but the T&S lens can do other things besides correct perspective. It can also be used to "extend" DOF so that near and far objects are in focus compared to using a standard lens with the same focal length. That's one thing that you can't do with software.

[Rense]

Leo,
I didn't know that about the L quality, learning every day in this forum.

[Rense]

Thank you guys for all your information,
About DOF extending: how does that work?

[Gary W. Graley]

Thank you guys for all your information,
About DOF extending: how does that work?

It relates to matching the plane of focus, as you tilt it allows those
objects that are in that plane to become also in focus, much like when
using the large format cameras, but you have a much more limited
range to move/tilt.

Here's an article by Frank Sheeran (http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/tilt-shift) that may help.

and this aritcle may shed some light, it's by John Shaw (http://www.photosafaris.com/Articles/TiltLenses.asp)

G2

[Rense]

G2,
Wow what an interesting reading you've supplied!

[Gary W. Graley]

You're welcome Rense, the second article is probably more interesting with real world images explaining the workings of the tilt shift lens.
I use to own a large format camera and have always wanted to get a tilt shift lens, one day!
G2

[Rense]

Gary,
You're remark about a large format camera, triggers me to a second question: will these tilt/shift lenses with a 20D or should I get another camera for the best results?

[Gary W. Graley]

In the digital world, probably not, film world there are several to choose from but now you're really into a different world!

Some links for late night reading;

Large Format Photography (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/)
Graflex Speed Graphics (http://www.graflex.org/)
Toyo View camera (http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?PAGE=Controller&ac.ui.pn=cat.CatItemDetail&ac.item.itemNo=TY1145&ac.cat.CatTree.detail=y&type=PRDINDEX) this one doesn't include the lens and lens board;
A Rodenstock lens (http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?PAGE=Controller&ac.ui.pn=cat.CatItemDetail&ac.item.itemNo=RS1310&ac.cat.CatTree.detail=y&type=PRDINDEX), these lens also include the shutter in their makeup, one nice thing is they flash sync at all speeds!
As you can see it just keeps on adding up, not to mention the film, film holders, darkroom bag to load the film, some place to process the film and then have it printed....shorter answer, get the tilt shift lens, 24mm on a 20D probably a better choice, wish I could afford one myself.
Good luck!
G2

[Huckaback Photo]

I used a 35mm schneider PA curtagon shift lens with my olympus gear,
one interesting thing that could be done with it was. put the camera on a tripod with lens attached, you have a landscape in front of you with 1 tree on a hill in the centre of the frame.
with the lens at zero (no shift)
now as you adjust the lens shift movement the tree can be effectively repositioned in that frame without actually moving the camera.
so quite useful for landscape work. the lens i mentioned was only shift and did not have tilt facility like the Canon lenses.
some portrait photographers also use these to good effect, if you want the model to have nice long legs thats the lens to use you really need one to see the effect.
there is a lot more uses than just perspective control.

Get the 24mm L version. if a bit more length needed put the 1.4 x extender behind it.

Finally you may well think photoshop adjustments can work in the same way as a tilt / shift lens,
sorry to say it but I think not.

Martin(Huckaback Photo)

[DaveG]

I've never used a tilt-shift lens... But I'm wondering..

Can perspective correction not be done just as well with modern software ?

You can do "rise" the image to correct for falling-over-backwards pretty effectively with Photoshop and especially with the incoming CS II. But there's no way to change the plane of depth of field inside a computer. This must be done in the camera at the time of exposure.

[Citizensmith]

I worked a while back with a pro photographer who was an ardent Nik0n fan. However he also had a Canon 1 series in his bag. On it was the 24 TS-E, the only Canon lens he owned. Basically, its a really good lens.

[cactusclay]

With the crop factor, the 24 is about a 38.4 or something like that. I can't imagine doing any type of indoor stuff with anything longer than that and it sort of limits you out doors as well.

[Rense]

Gary,
Late night reading turned in to early morning study, but in the end I like your short advice. Now I've to find the cash ...

[Rense]

Martin,
Are there any other TS lenses (not made by Canon) which I have to consider?

[Rense]

Citizensmith,
Thanks for the confirmation on the 24.

[Rense]

Cactusclay,
My primary usage will be exterior architecture, not interior. What's the outdoor limit you mention?

[raylks]

Get the 24mm L version. if a bit more length needed put the 1.4 x extender behind it.

Would 1.4 converter fit the TS lens?

[cactusclay]

The outdoor limit with buildings, lets say you are in a downtown area and you can't get back far enough without running into another building, the longer the lens, the farther you have to get back to get more of the building in.

[rdenney]

I've never used a tilt-shift lens... But I'm wondering..

Can perspective correction not be done just as well with modern software ?

It depends. Stretching the image to achieve perspective correction will stretch pixels, and that will result in a lowering of resolution. Your effective maximum print size will be cut in half, if you have to make a big correction. So, if you need to maintain resolution, correcting perspective in the lens is the way to go.

But the tilt part is even more useful than the shift part. You can control focus issues with lens tilts in ways you absolutely cannot with software.

Rick "who'd love to have the T/S 24" Denney

[rdenney]

Martin,
Are there any other TS lenses (not made by Canon) which I have to consider?

There are some Ukrainian lenses, but only in 35mm focal length. I don't remember if you mentioned the camera, but unless it's a 1Ds (or 1DsII), the 35 will end up longer than normal. It's rather hard to 1.) get far enough back not to fall off the edge of something or run your back up against another building with a long lens, and 2.) to get a dramatic rectilinear wide-angle view. If you want the extreme perspective of a close camera position, the 24 is the only possibility. But, really, a 16 or an 18 would be better.

If you have a zoom that covers 24, then put it on 24 and walk around with it. If you can use it for buildings (without perspective correction) and get the point of view you want, the 24 T/S will work for you. If not, I would use film and scan, or spring for a 1Ds if you have more money than me.

Rick "who does architecture work mostly with a view camera, a 47mm Super Angulon, and a 6x9 rollfilm back" Denney

[Andy_T]

Hehe,

when I saw that Rick Denney was the last poster in the thread, I immediately thought that he would have contributed some of his experiences with Ukrainian TS lenses.

Hehe, so allow me to add the link to his page for the Hartblei 45 PCS (http://www.rickdenney.com/hartblei.htm) lens that you could use with an adapter on your Canon camera ... if you can live with 45 mm focal length, it will certainly be a lot less expensive than the other solutions.

Best regards,
Andy

[rdenney]

...when I saw that Rick Denney was the last poster in the thread, I immediately thought that he would have contributed some of his experiences with Ukrainian TS lenses.

Hehe, so allow me to add the link to his page for the Hartblei 45 PCS (http://www.rickdenney.com/hartblei.htm) lens that you could use with an adapter on your Canon camera ... if you can live with 45 mm focal length, it will certainly be a lot less expensive than the other solutions.


Note that the 45 is a medium-format lens that is based on the Mir26 optics. That lens is a good design in medium format, but it's not, in my opinion, sharp enough to be used with such a small sensor, unless you would not mind very small prints. And the movements are somewhat limited by that design, too, though that would not be a problem at all on the small sensor. Adapting that lens to a Canon is easy--just a $35 adaptor. But the lens ain't that cheap by small-format standards (it's a steal by medium-format standards, though).

I would much rather take that Hartblei 45, and stick a $300 Kiev 60 camera on it (or a $300 used Pentax or Mamiya 645). Then, scan the medium-format negatives. That would give you nearly the same coverage as the 24 on a full-frame 35mm camera. I would even more rather show up with a view camera, but it's truly the opposite of convenient.

Another, and in my view better option is to use a radically wide lens like a 10-22 or the 12-24 (that I have) and compose just using the top half of the image. If the lens is wide enough, you can position the camera so that the sensor is vertical (that will correct vertical perspective), and still see the whole building. You'll have a lot more foreground than you want, but you can crop that off.

Think about it this way:

1. Decide that your image will be 10x15 format. That's a 10D/20D "half frame".
2. Position the camera in the vertical orientation with the sensor dead vertical. This will correct any vertical perspective with a rectilinear lens.
3. A 12mm lens is the equivalent of a 28 in 35mm, when used with a 10x15 format. Or, if you can use the 10-22, the 10 is the equivalent of the 24.
4. You can place that 10x15 image anywhere in the 15x23 image space you want. Thus, you can shift the image downward by 6.5mm, which is a pretty radical shift in this format. That will allow you to get a landscape format pulled from the portrait arrangement of the full sensor.
5. You end up with an image 1330 pixels by 2000 pixels, or 2.6 MP with a 10D (a 20D would be more like 3.6 MP). (Of course, you can use more of the foreground if you want to, if you don't mind an image that is less rectangular and closer to square.) You'd be limited in print size to 8x10 at the outside, and it would be gorgeous for web display.

In this example, I used a Sigma 12-24 at 12, somewhat cropped, to correct much of the perspective of the building, and to create a dramatic perspective. I left a little distortion in there for effect, but I could have leveled the camera up a bit more and made everything perfectly corrected. When you hold the camera level to correct perspective, the horizon will be right in the middle. So you usually have to crop to keep the image from being static. In this case, though, I didn't mind it. I didn't follow my rules explicitly--this one is shot in landscape format right from the start. But you can see that if I turne the camera vertical and just used half the frame, I could have tilted it even downward, making the building wider at the top than at the bottom, and still gotten it in the picture.

http://www.rickdenney.com/images/fort-niagra-keep-lores.jpg

Rick "who has used ultra-wides and cropping to get 'shift' on many occasions" Denney

[Rense]

Rick
Thanks for your information.
Now I'm rethinking the whole thing after I've read our post ...

[Jon]

The tilt-shifts will work fine with the 20D. In fact, they'd benefit from the same glass in an EF-S mount, which would be able to tilt and shift more due to the outsized image circle.

Remember, if you try to do PC in post-processing you're stretching out the pixels and throwing a bunch away as you widen the far end of the picture. When you use a PC lens, you're capturing the corrected image with all the pixels you paid so much for in the camera. And as has already been said, you can't post-process for the Scheimpflug effect and improved depth of field.

[Huckaback Photo]

Rense go with the 24 tse its the only choice really.
My way is I shoot with 14 mm f2.8 on my 1D mk 2 make sure its vertical .
I feel you really need full frame to get the best from any shift lens certainly for buildings.
if your body is a 1.6 crop factor you may well do better with a vary wide lens preferably rectilinear

A bit of info I dug up may be of interest.
http://www.ohse.de/uwe/articles/shift-tilt.html#note5

just thought of this example of mine had to shoot some interiors and sure a shift lens would have been useful, but no way would I have got so much in so tight for space about 5 ft from bottom of stairs , of course this was taken with the 14mm f2.8 hand held and getting the verticals as good as possible, most of scene being white was not helping me.

http://www.pbase.com/huckaback_photo/image/41821309

Regards
Martin (Huckaback Photo)

[Andy_T]

Also, you might take a look at this eBay auction (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=707&item=7507949767&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V) for an Ukrainian Arsat 35 mm tilt/shift lens for $360 new.

I remember that the seller also sometimes just sells the tilt/shift adapter to be used any with MF lenses you might already have or buy.

The risk - as Rick mentioned - is that medium format lenses normally don't have the resolution of 35 mm lenses, because they don't have to, as the enlargement from the larger film format is not as big.

Best regards,
Andy

[Rense]

Martin,
Sorry for answering your post so late (I've been busy working), but I appreciate the information, and like the photo very much!

I've made my mind up (wirh many thanks to everyone who responded to this thread):when I get sufficient money I buy a TS24.

[Rense]

Jon,
Thanks for reassuring me that the TS24 will work on a 20D. Im reading and studying up on the Scheimpflug effect, my background as a mathematician is helping me in this aspect.

[Rense]

Andy,
Thanks for pointing this out, but I don't like to buy on ebay. I think it is much wiser to go for a complete Canon lineup.

[Huckaback Photo]

Cheers Rense
now if Canon only made 2 lenses we would never worry about which to get next.

[Rense]

But also we didn't have anything to long for ...

[Rense]

Thanks to your remarks, I've bought the TS-24 (for even less euro's)!

[OL9245]

I have a 24mm TSE. a good lens. But I would have bought the Hartbley superotaror instead if I could have tried it before buying. Its half the price of the Canon, and it is notoriously sharp (Hartbley has its own muticoated technology). Hatbley builds medium format lenses that you can adapt to 35mm bodies. This is the case of the superrotator.

[Rense]

OL9245,
THanks for following up on this tread. Were can you buy these Hartbley's ?

[Scottes]

Its half the price of the Canon, and it is notoriously sharp...
Half? I'm interested....

[Scottes]

Luminous Landscape Article on the Hartblie 45mm f/2.5 Super Rotator
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/hartblei45.shtml
Though this is about 645 cameras, it gives some insight into this lens.

It finishes "Well, I'm here to tell you that it is. If you use a Mamiya, Pentax or Contax 645 camera and if you do landscape, architectural or product photography, the Hartblei 45mm f/3.5 Super-Rotator may be one of the great bargain lenses to be found. No distributors, no retailers, no advertising — all of which add to a product's final cost. Just the factory straight to you."

http://www.hartblei.com/

No EOS mounts, so now I'm wondering about OL9245's statement "Hatbley builds medium format lenses that you can adapt to 35mm bodies. "

[rdenney]

I have a 24mm TSE. a good lens. But I would have bought the Hartbley superotaror instead if I could have tried it before buying. Its half the price of the Canon, and it is notoriously sharp (Hartbley has its own muticoated technology). Hatbley builds medium format lenses that you can adapt to 35mm bodies. This is the case of the superrotator.

Hartblei lenses (note spelling) are made from optical elements produced for various Arsat lenses by the Arsenal factory. Hartblei selects them supposedly according to higher standards, mounts them in their own barrels with supposedly better alignment, and coats them. They are nicely coated and the barrels are well made.

When based on a truly good lens, they are excellent. There just aren't many truly excellent rectilinear wide-angle lenses produced by the Arsenal factory in Kiev.

I have the Hartblei 45mm PCS lens (not the super-rotator mount, but the same glass) in medium format. It is acceptably sharp for medium format, but would be unacceptable for 35mm, let alone an APS sensor. It is based on the Mir 26 lens, which has a checkered reputation at best.

The 65mm medium-format lens is based on the better Mir 38.

Neither of these is really designed for tilt and shift, and you run out of usable coverage in a hurry when used in medium format, though they should be fine in terms of coverage for the small format.

Hartblei has also mounted 80mm and 120mm medium-format lenses in a tilt-shift mount for use on small-format cameras, including the EF mount. Again, it is all manual. Because these planar-type lenses were designed for 56x56mm coverage, they allow reasonable movements on 24x36 or APS sensors. And because they are not based on the questionable Mir retrofocus wide-angle designs, they should perform much better. I have both of these lenses in non-tilt-shift mounts and they are reasonably good for their price, especially stopped down.

Arsenal produces the Arsat 55mm shift lens that is outstanding by all reports--the equal of Schneider Curtagons and Zeiss Distagons. It is available only in the Pentacon Six medium format mount, though that can be adapted to Canon EF easily.

Arsenal also makes 35mm shift lenses intended for their 35mm cameras that have been modified to include the EF mount, though with manual focus and preset manual aperture (i.e., no electronics).

Prices range from $350 to $799. Definitely cheaper than the Canon 24.

But none of them are remotely wide angle in the APS format, while the Canon is the only lens on the market shorter than APS normal with perspective correction.

The usual source in the U.S. for Hartblei and Arsenal products is Kiev Camera in Atlanta, www.kievcamera.com.

Just so you know, it's not that easy to know exactly who Hartblei really is. We know that Sergey Naumenko is the owner, but the Hartblei web site is run by Alexander Pissarenko, who is a former retail partner of Naumenko but from whom has since parted with some acrimony, if rumors are true. It has been impossible to determine who does what, or how. The best current theory is that Hartblei is a pool of Arsenal technicians who work occasionally for Hartblei to supplement what must be a meager income from Arsenal. The products are excellent keeping this in mind, but it's best not to expect miracles. And it's also best to realize that medium-format lenses are rarely as good as 35mm lenses because of the compromises required for the greater coverage.

Rick "who owns a number of Hartblei products" Denney

[rdenney]

No EOS mounts, so now I'm wondering about OL9245's statement "Hatbley builds medium format lenses that you can adapt to 35mm bodies. "

Kiev Camera affixes EF mounts on the shift lenses made by Arsenal for 35mm cameras. And any of the lenses designed for the Pentacon Six medium format mount are readily adaptable to EF. All the Hartblei medium format lenses were originally made in the P-6 mount, though many are made in other mounts to expand their market.

And don't listen to Reichmann when it comes to understanding who sells to whom. Buying from Hartblei.com is reportedly NOT buying directly from the factory. It is not possible to buy directly from the factory without having a personal relationship with Sergey Naumenko, and then it isn't any cheaper than you can get from Kiev Camera.

Caveat Emptor applies especially to buying second-world optics currently produced. The prices are not in the silly-cheap range of the old DDR Zeiss Jena lenses. I've bought a bunch of it, but always with my eyes open.

Rick "who has found many errors in Reichmann's reviews of Ukrainian lenses that remain uncorrected despite having been notified of them" Denney

[CorruptedPhotographer]

The outdoor limit with buildings, lets say you are in a downtown area and you can't get back far enough without running into another building, the longer the lens, the farther you have to get back to get more of the building in.

One way to combat this with if you need to back up because the 24mm is not wide enough. The people get in the way. So try shooting at f/16 with a Neutral Density filter @ ISO 100 with a long shutter speed.

[mbze430]

I have been in debating to get a Hartblei Super Rotator 45mm for my Contax system. I figured the image quality will be as par with the 24mm TS-E L....any comments with 1dsmk2 + 24mm ts-e L shooters that own a MF system with a Hartblei Super Rotartor?

[rdenney]

I have been in debating to get a Hartblei Super Rotator 45mm for my Contax system. I figured the image quality will be as par with the 24mm TS-E L....any comments with 1dsmk2 + 24mm ts-e L shooters that own a MF system with a Hartblei Super Rotartor?

I measured a resolution in the range of 20-30 lines/mm in the center and the corner at f/8 with a Hartblei 45mm PCS lens (same glass as the Super-Rotator, but in a shift-only barrel), with no shift. My resolution observation corresponds to an MTF of 10 or 20%, so this is not a high standard.

Canon reports that at f/8, the 24mm TSE lens provides an MTF of about 65% in the corner with a spatial frequency of 40 lines/mm.

In general, given the same print size, medium format requires only half the spatial frequency at a given MTF to match the optical quality of a similar lens in 35mm. My test data do not allow a direct comparison, but it seems to me quite unlikely that the Hartblei lens will provide that. At an MTF of 65%, I suspect the Hartblei would not be able to produce a spatial frequency greater than 10 lines/mm near the corners, and maybe not even that good. It would need to be at least 20 to match the Canon lens, given the same print size and considering the effect of the larger format.

The Hartblei lens (like the Mir 26 on which it is based) also suffers from about 1 or 2% barrel distortion, which can be managed but which does make one-point perspectives in architectural photography troublesome. And the coverage with respect to the format is not nearly as great with the Harblei. I can shift the lens about 8 or 10 mm at most in medium format, which does not provide the same total correction ability as the Canon lens on the 24x36 format.

The Hartblei lens is quite useful and I have made zillions of images with mine, used both for its shifting properties and also as a general-purpose landscape lens. But I would not use it if I needed make large prints. I have a 47mm Super Angulon and a roll-film back for the view camera when I need that.

I should also note that medium format looks better than 35mm film even when the optical quality is not quite as good, merely because the film has more tonal information in it and creates a smoother image. That's also the reason bigger sensors produce better results even without considering optics. Sharpness and fine contrast aren't the only measures of image quality.

I have reviewed the Hartblei 45mm PCS lens here:

http://www.rickdenney.com/hartblei.htm

Rick "who uses it but who has no illusions about it" Denney

[OL9245]

Hi all,

I have been very busy these days and I did not see this thread was going on so far after I suggested Hatblei lens.

I learned more at reading the posts than I knew before about this lens.

This is the whole tale of my seek for a tilt/shift lens.

I wanted the lens to do close-range photogrametry. In such an application, sharpness is the only requirement. After some google I discovered that Hartblei lenses might do the job at reasonable cost. However I knew nothing about it and I had 10 days to make a decision. On the other hand, some other forums and reviews said the 24mm TSE was a smooth lens, and I was very concerned about buying it and not having my measurement done accurately.

I entered in contact with Mikhail Fourman at KievCamera. He seemed to receive the lenses (from Ukraine?) one at a time. I wanted at least to have some of my .pdf targets to be shot with his camera and get the images emailed back for inspection because of my concern with sharpness. First, he told me he did not have any lens at the moment to shoot with. One other day, he e-mailed me he got a lens. But in the next mail, he pretended he could not find a DSLR to shoot my targets. I gave up. I went to a Canon retailer who had the whole collection of TSE in demo. I shot my targets at f/8. I was impressed by the sharpness. I measured 40 lp/mm in the corners at maximum shift while the lighting conditions were not excelent and I had not the available time to do a reliable test. My 10 days were almost over so I bought the lens at full price.

considering the large pixel size of the 5D (122 pixels/mm) this is to say that the lens was likely not the limiting factor for MTF, but the sensor itself. This conclusion comes from the following reasoning of my own (which I dont know if its right or wrong: its just mine :-o)
* one cycle cannot be smaller than 2 pixels (black-white-black-white)
* for electronic considerations, it is not possible to have light hitting a single pixel and zero response from the neighbors, so one cannot expect much better than black-gray-white-gray-black.
=> my conclusion is that the practical MTF limit of a sensor is one third of the pixels density. which in the case of the 5D is 122/3 = 40.

I get this MTF limit with the 24 mm TSE monted on a 5D, at f/8 (faster not tested)

(deserved) thanks for reading (a too long post) ;-)
Olivier

[rdenney]

=> my conclusion is that the practical MTF limit of a sensor is one third of the pixels density. which in the case of the 5D is 122/3 = 40.

I get this MTF limit with the 24 mm TSE monted on a 5D, at f/8 (faster not tested)


Olivier, at what MTF do you expect to see a critical resolution of 40 lines/mm? I doubt very seriously you would have achieved 40 lines/mm at 10% MTF with the Hartblei 45mm lens except in the center. In the next coupld of weeks, I will have my own measurements of the critical resolution of these lenses at MTF values of both 10% and 50%.

You would also have been upset about the barrel distortion of that lens, if you are doing photogrammetry. You need lenses purpose-built to eliminate all geometric distortion for that application.

Zavod Arsenal in the Ukraine also make a 55mm shift-only lens that is far sharper than the 45mm Mir 26 that Hartblei turns into the Hartblei 45mm Super Rotator.

The only advantage to the Hartblei 45 is that the lens is designed to perform more evenly across the field than most early retrofocus wide-angle lenses. That might be beneficial to you. Most early retrofocus wide-angle lenses (e.g. Flektogon, early Distagon, and Angenieux) were designed to be sharp in the middle even if at the expense of corner performance. This is not helpful if you are stitching or correcting photos using details in the corners of the images.

You are much better off with the 24mm TSE.

Rick "who thinks the Hartblei and Arsenal medium format lenses are best left to medium format" Denney

[OL9245]

In the next coupld of weeks, I will have my own measurements of the critical resolution of these lenses at MTF values of both 10% and 50%.
Thank-you Rick for your post. You convinced me that I made a clever decision not buying the Hartblei lens without testing it.

I will be very glad to read your tests when available. I am keen to do some serious testing with my 24mm TSE + 5D by the same time for comparison. Which method would you advice me to use?

Olivier

[Lester Wareham]

It depends. Stretching the image to achieve perspective correction will stretch pixels, and that will result in a lowering of resolution. Your effective maximum print size will be cut in half, if you have to make a big correction. So, if you need to maintain resolution, correcting perspective in the lens is the way to go.

But the tilt part is even more useful than the shift part. You can control focus issues with lens tilts in ways you absolutely cannot with software.

Rick "who'd love to have the T/S 24" Denney

True, resolution loss shows up when using barrel and pincushion correction also. Hard to see in real images though.

[rdenney]

True, resolution loss shows up when using barrel and pincushion correction also. Hard to see in real images though.

It's not hard to see when picking pixel-size image details to use as alignment targets for aerial photograpmmetry or stitching panoramas. There, resolution counts even in the corners. But even if you can fix barrel distortion well enough to be usable, but if the image is no better than 10-20 lines/mm in the corners anyway, then there's nothing to work with.

Rick "who suggests Norman Koren's lens test charts, positioned as he recommends, for home testing" Denney

[ALCAN]

will useing a Extender EF 2x on a 24mm e ts damage the the camera or lens ????

[PacAce]

will useing a Extender EF 2x on a 24mm e ts damage the the camera or lens ????

The 24mm TSE lens is not listed as one of the lens that's compatible with the EF 2x teleconverter. Chances are that the TX won't even fit on the 24mm TSE but I'm just guessing here since I don't have a 24mm TSE lens to try the 2x TC on.

[ALCAN]

i have both the lens and the tele convertor and it does fit ........ i saw somewere that its not recomended but it doesn't say why .........

[nureality]

here's a link to a site (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/11/16/beautiful-examples-of-tilt-shift-photography/) with a bunch of photos taken with Tilt-Shift lenses. Showing off the "model"/"dollhouse" affect.

Interestingly, if anyone has been watching the new FOX show "Dollhouse", parts of its opening credit sequence are video shot with a Tilt-Shift lens... showing this very effect.

[DaveG]

i have both the lens and the tele convertor and it does fit ........ i saw somewere that its not recomended but it doesn't say why .........

Do you have an actual Canon 2X extender? Or is it a generic (i.e. Brand-X) 2X teleconvertor?

My Canon 1.4 extender just won't fit on most lenses as the front elements of the extender stick out and will physically either hit the back elements of the lens, or just won't fit inside the lens body. The generic teleconvertor types are flat and do fit.

If you do have the genuine Canon extender be VERY careful even if it does fit. I'd be concerned that the back elements of the lens move backwards when focusing. If that happens then they might collide and scratch.

I'm commenting having no experience with the 24mm shift lens so I could easily be full of it. One the other hand if I'm wrong nothing happens. But if I'm right you could damage a very expensive lens and a valuable extender.

[ALCAN]

I have a canon convertor .... and it fits but i wanted to see if any had tried useing it and if there were any problems

[ALCAN]

If you do have the genuine Canon extender be VERY careful even if it does fit. I'd be concerned that the back elements of the lens move backwards when focusing. If that happens then they might collide and scratch.

I'm commenting having no experience with the 24mm shift lens so I could easily be full of it. One the other hand if I'm wrong nothing happens. But if I'm right you could damage a very expensive lens and a valuable extender.

you may be right .. with the lens free i turned the focusing ring and it stops just past infinity, i attached the lens to the convertor and turned the ring and it stops at infinity. so yes it will make contact with the rear element, the ruber around the front element of the covertor may prevent the elements from scratching but i wont take the chance

Thanks
AL