Leaving prices on your post

[jcrane]

Hi everyone. I sell some items on POTN,.I would like to know why members want you to leave prices after you sale your item on your post. I have my opinion . I think everyone who sells on POTN should know what to sell a item for. I think it would push prices up. Let's have a discussion about this. Maybe we should leave prices up. But I think that the members who sell alot on here would not want to leave prices..My opinion only.

[S.Horton]

Since the price posted may not be what it sold for, I am not sure it would matter either way.

That said, I think I'd remove it and replace the price with SOLD.

[Fernando]

I prefer to see what an item went for, or at least what it was originally selling for, after the sale is compelted and the thread is locked. Several boards I'm on for a variety of hobbies have this as policy.

It's helpful when pricing something of your own or when you have to go to ebay for an item.

A while back it was a "leave the prices be" policy that allowed me to know that I got a great price on a pistol.

If we're at all taking a poll I vote for add a big SOLD to the top of the post and leave the pricing in place.

-F

[tmwag]

From what I interpret (according to POTN policy) the transaction is solely between the seller and potential buyers.... final selling price, payment form, etc. is no ones else’s business. If a potential buyer who wasn't the eventual buyer wants to know the final selling price they could always PM

[n1as]

The final details of a sale are between buyer & seller

BUT

The original asking price is an important part of the historical record that is VERY USEFUL to people who buy/sell similar items in the future.

If you were willing to post a price to start with, you should be willing to just leave it there.

Skip - THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU So very much!

[jeev]

Leaving the price in my mind is a hassel, Sale price for used revolves around
1.The condition of the item
2. How quickly the seller wants to sell and prices accourdingly
3. Any rebates at the sell time for new purchase
4. Availability from major retailers.

You get PM's asking to match a sale that happened months ago.

My 2 cents...

[57hardtop]

I deleted this post because getting into pissing matches is not my style...everyone has their opinion and I respect that...I hope you do too ;)

[jeev]

I would say maintain the listing till the feedbacks are posted.

The final details of a sale are between buyer & seller

BUT

The original asking price is an important part of the historical record that is VERY USEFUL to people who buy/sell similar items in the future.

If you were willing to post a price to start with, you should be willing to just leave it there.

Skip - THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU So very much!

[dan j]

That's the least that should be done.

I know folks used to quote the OP in their response which would store the original info. I still think it'd be better if the OP was locked. Is their anyway to lock the OP and have it copied to reply #1 which would be editable?

Oh, and Skip, I've read almost 20% of the stickies! ;)

dan

[segasaturn]

I like to see the prices on completed items so I can say, "Damn, he got a good price on that one!"
It's not like I'm going to PM the seller (or buyer) once a post is closed and beg for an item that has already been sold.

[EOSNewbie]

Is their anyway to lock the OP and have it copied to reply #1 which would be editable?


+1.

I think this is a great idea, alternately, all those in favor of leaving the prices intact could go ahead and quote the original in their reply. ( Mod or someone with vbulletin experience please confirm this, will the quoted text change if the OP changes?)

[Poe]

Does this mean we should report people's threads when they start deleting prices?

[57hardtop]

Does this mean we should report people's threads when they start deleting prices?
yeah...kinda gives a new meaning to "price policing" ;)

[Justin_Thyme]

Locking the OP is not the answer, it just makes it to where if you decide to do a price drop you have to make a reply later in the thread which most wont scroll that far if the original pot price is too high.

No you never know what the final price is but you can presume it didnt go far from the asking price. I seldom sell items for less than the asking price unless I have multiple items posted and someone wants a package deal. Then I will only suntract the extra shipping. I post up fair price in the first place so the item will sell. Not lookng to do fire sales but not looking to sell something used for close to a new price either which there is a lot of that and as skip said in the other thread you will see nothing in these posts but price policing.

There is no way to make anything idiot proof, if you try along comes a better idiot. Some things hold values and others do not. Example being lenses and camera bodies. Bodies drop sharply when a new model comes out. Most lenses will hold the value for years so long as it is kept well and its not replaced by a verion II. This brings up another point that value is always based on condition. If someone is too stupid to figure out that a mint lens is worth more than a beater there isnt a thing you can do about it. Just like there is nothing you can do is your sale topic is closed and you have big red letters SOLD and someone ask is it still for sale. If this really bother you that much then maybe you should take a break from the B&S areas as IMO this is being overly anal retentive. There will always be LOWBALLERS! Much as I hate it, I just ignore the PMs and posts.

[lens pirate]

Aside from fraud or cheating I find it really hard to understand why anyone feels entitled to police what somebody else does in their sale thread. Buy it or not. Other than that you don't have a nickle in the dime. My opinion

[57hardtop]

Aside from fraud or cheating I find it really hard to understand why anyone feels entitled to police what somebody else does in their sale thread. Buy it or not. Other than that you don't have a nickle in the dime. My opinion

+1 bw!

[jeev]

+2...

Aside from fraud or cheating I find it really hard to understand why anyone feels entitled to police what somebody else does in their sale thread. Buy it or not. Other than that you don't have a nickle in the dime. My opinion

[canonloader]

I don't see that it matters either way, except that when I go look in a locked thread at a MkII I wanted but couldn't afford and see it went for $975, I feel worse than if the price were deleted. ;)

I do go look for the prices a lot though. I think I better tell my analyst about that...

[Skip Souza]

I have a question, perhaps I am missing the point here so i need some help understanding.

Why is it important to delete information form the thread, be it prices or sometimes whole items?

It has been said that information(knowledge) is power. If someone uses the information in the OP does he have an advantage? Perhaps, depending on how it is interpreted/used. More importantly does the original poster lose something when his information is retrieved? What does he lose? How?

We vies POTN not only as a community of friends but also as an information resource. How is the community benefited when individuals choose to secret or refuse to share their information?

Help me out here, I just don't get it.

[KatyaLP]

I like when ppl leave the price in the original post. I sold my camera and lens here and it was useful to go back to previous sales to price my items right for a quick sale. It was really annoying though to see many people deleting the original info.

[canonloader]

More importantly does the original poster lose something when his information is retrieved?
Maybe he wants to tell the IRS or his wife that he only got $1500 for his MkIII with 56 actuations on it?

[Skip Souza]

Aside from fraud or cheating I find it really hard to understand why anyone feels entitled to police what somebody else does in their sale thread. Buy it or not. Other than that you don't have a nickle in the dime. My opinion

There are a few things that are not acceptable in For Sale threads.

Price Comments: They either trash the sellers thread or bump the sellers thread. Neither are fair.

Bumps: Thread bumping is not allowed anywhere on POTN.

Public Negotiations, Bids, or Counter offers. All these must be conducted through private communications.

Negative Comments about Seller: We do not allow lynchings or public floggings anywhere on POTN.

Any other off topic comments: The For Sale forum is not the place for personal or product testimonials, photography questions/comments, personal greetings, or any other non relevant chit-chat. These just serve to bump the thread and are not fair to other sellers.

[57hardtop]

I have a question, perhaps I am missing the point here so i need some help understanding.

Why is it important to delete information form the thread, be it prices or sometimes whole items?

It has been said that information(knowledge) is power. If someone uses the information in the OP does he have an advantage? Perhaps, depending on how it is interpreted/used. More importantly does the original poster lose something when his information is retrieved? What does he lose? How?

We vies POTN not only as a community of friends but also as an information resource. How is the community benefited when individuals choose to secret or refuse to share their information?

Help me out here, I just don't get it.

Skip, believe it or not, contrary to my previous posts, I too find it frustrating when I go to look at an item that has sold only find the original (or reduced) price replaced with a big red SOLD, but to have a mandate that requires that members must leave it untouched is fascist (OK, that may a bit too extreme, but you get my drift). As I stated in my post from your original thread, many times it can hurt the buyer when he gets a good deal on something and decides he wants to sell it later. Many people really do think that if he asks the going market value for the item that he is not being fair...ripping them off. I have had this experience personally. As to why people delete the whole item in the listing completely is beyond me, but it is their choice for whatever reason they have. If there was some hanky panky (fraud or cheating) going on, isn't it the buyer's problem and their responsibility to take action...remember, the forum won't do anything for them (nor should they as it is a private transaction). I personally don't think there are too many shady transactions going on here as these are honest people here for the most part, and if someone screws someone, word gets out...maybe not in the feedback forum, but it gets out (pm's and emails). People really do pm other members to ask about previous transactions with people, and that's when the truth comes out if someone isn't trustworthy.

Frustrating, yes...rant worthy, sure...but to create a forum rule preventing it, c'mon now ;)

[dan j]

If there was some hanky panky (fraud or cheating) going on, isn't it the buyer's problem and their responsibility to take action...remember, the forum won't do anything for them (nor should they as it is a private transaction).
Actually, I think that's wrong. Forums do have to respond to records requests. That's a great reason to lock and make the OP reply #1.

dan

[canonloader]

Forums do have to respond to records requests.
Even if that were a law, this forum is not in the US.

[dan j]

Yes, but they do business in the US.

dan

[canonloader]

What's that got to do with anything? Respond to records requests? By who?

[Jon]

Even if that were a law, this forum is not in the US.
Pekka isn't in the US. Run a tracert. You might be surprised. And lawsuits are no respecters of borders.

[dan j]

What's that got to do with anything?
So, following your logic, if a company wants to avoid US courts it just needs to be headquartered overseas.

Basically (very basically), anything in the US stream of commerce is subject to and has to abide US regulations or laws.

The requests could come from folks who made a transaction through the forum, felt things went wrong and filed a suit.

dan

[canonloader]

You guys are aware that a different regime is in power now? Requesting records is not the same as "getting" the records. And how did this thread get so far off track? How could a transaction that happens outside the forum have anything to do with the forum?

[cdifoto]

The coffee shop where you met your wife is not liable for her turning into a bitch after the honeymoon. The bad seller/buyer is your wife and POTN is the coffee shop.

[Skip Souza]

This has nothing to do with "Records requests" or lawsuits. It is about sharing information with the users of POTN.

The owner may establish any rules deemed necessary for the good of the Forum. Such rules are never formulated in a vacuum but they apply to all who participate.

[dan j]

How could a transaction that happens outside the forum have anything to do with the forum?
If the transaction, or parts of it occurred through the forum, the documentation could be subpoenaed.

No one is saying that POTN would automatically be a party to the suit, it's just that POTN has information that is potentially relevant. It's just a records request.

dan

[dan j]

This has nothing to do with "Records requests" or lawsuits. It is about sharing information with the users of POTN.

The owner may establish any rules deemed necessary for the good of the Forum. Such rules are never formulated in a vacuum but they apply to all who participate.
Well, that's true, and we went a different direction. But, it could be very helpful if there were a records request.

dan

[cdifoto]

If the transaction, or parts of it occurred through the forum, the documentation could be subpoenaed.

No one is saying that POTN would automatically be a party to the suit, it's just that POTN has information that is potentially relevant. It's just a records request.

dan
What information do you think a forum would have that the requesting party wouldn't already have?

[canonloader]

Dan, no transactions happen through the forum. This is a contact point at best, a want ads. Transactions are when money changes hands, and POTN has absolutely nothing to do with transfer of funds. Anything else, whether stated or implied is hearsay. The forum has no control over anything said in public or private messages, and nobody, court or card reader has any way of knowing if it was true or not. I dare say, anything other than a direct death threat could ever be used by any court, anywhere.

[dan j]

What information do you think a forum would have that the requesting party wouldn't already have?
The other parties PM's. Records of changes to the thread, or post if they're kept.

dan

[dan j]

I dare say, anything other than a direct death threat could ever be used by any court, anywhere.
Ok, before I walk away, let me ask you this.

You said no transaction occurs on POTN, I don't disagree. But, there may be a record of conversations on POTN which would be relevant. Then you said that a death threat could be subpoenaed used by a court. How is that record any different?

It's a record. If you bought something through the newspaper and it turned out not to be what the seller claimed, wouldn't you bring the newspaper ad with you to court?

Ok, I'm done :)

dan

[cnsconnor84]

I think the prices should stay up. It helps when trying to make a sale of your own. Many people don't know what they should sell their used gear for and past sales are a great reference point.IMO.

[Justin_Thyme]

We vies POTN not only as a community of friends but also as an information resource. How is the community benefited when individuals choose to secret or refuse to share their information?

Now your talking skip.

Thas why I came here in the first place. Not to impune anyone.....My thoughts,
I came here in the first place to get away from fleabay.
Personally I dont price gouge and like to have the information available of the latest going rates so that A) I dont price gouge and look like an idiot for doing so and B) So I dont price too low and and ultimately make everyones elses stuff now worth less.
I dont see what the big deal is of deleting all reference if it was all in public view in the first place.
If you got a good deal and later try and sell for profit I can only speak for myself in that I wouldnt buy it, refer to skips quote from above. It sickened me with the Circuit City 100mm Macros With people buying everything they could find for just over $300 and trying to sell them for full retail or close to it, same with those hording the 5DII's. This again goes back to this being a community and helping each other out. Other wise the entire market place should be a hotlink to fleabay. I have sold some 100+ items on forums over the last year or so and didnt turn a profit on a single item. If I bought it new I a took loss, If I bought it used I tried to sell it for around what I paid for it (keeping in mind I reseached the going rate before purchase on intact posts)
I think of the market place as an online swap meet where fellow photogs can swap around gear, try things out without having to get taken to the cleaners in the process so someone else can profit.
I can only speak for myself of course but if I find an outstanding deal on something Im going to pass it on to the next guy ( or gal ) . Theres a lot of ways this act is described.
Karma, do unto others, what comes around goes around.............

bw!

Contrary to some beliefs... posts and private messages as well as IP address of members are subject to subpeona and are used in a courts.

[lens pirate]

Now your talking skip.

Thas why I came here in the first place. Not to impune anyone.....My thoughts,
I came here in the first place to get away from fleabay.
Personally I dont price gouge and like to have the information available of the latest going rates so that A) I dont price gouge and look like an idiot for doing so and B) So I dont price too low and and ultimately make everyones elses stuff now worth less.
I dont see what the big deal is of deleting all reference if it was all in public view in the first place.
If you got a good deal and later try and sell for profit I can only speak for myself in that I wouldn't buy it, refer to skips quote from above. It sickened me with the Circuit City 100mm Macros With people buying everything they could find for just over $300 and trying to sell them for full retail or close to it, same with those hording the 5DII's. This again goes back to this being a community and helping each other out. Other wise the entire market place should be a hotlink to fleabay. I have sold some 100+ items on forums over the last year or so and didnt turn a profit on a single item. If I bought it new I a took loss, If I bought it used I tried to sell it for around what I paid for it (keeping in mind I reseached the going rate before purchase on intact posts)
I think of the market place as an online swap meet where fellow photogs can swap around gear, try things out without having to get taken to the cleaners in the process so someone else can profit.
I can only speak for myself of course but if I find an outstanding deal on something Im going to pass it on to the next guy ( or gal ) . Theres a lot of ways this act is described.
Karma, do unto others, what comes around goes around.............

bw!

Contrary to some beliefs... posts and private messages as well as IP address of members are subject to subpeona and are used in a courts.

You know there are lots of issues here. There is no end to the spin off arguments that this topic can provoke among people of good will.

Now the owner of this forum is 100 percent entitled to make up what ever rules for posting here he wants to . Until of course he charges or takes money from Members. Then there is a contract with expectations to be full filled. Once again that is another argument. But this thread is not about the absolute right of the owner of this forum to impose rules.

Nor is it about some peoples "holier than thou" ideas about what constitutes ethical capitalism. Seriously man...do whats right for you but leave me alone. That argument is just another obfuscation of the central point. They very idea that people get upset with someone buying low and selling high fills me with..... well nothing because it is so absurd that it does not merit that much attention. It's a "MARKET PLACE".

The argument "here" is whether not a rule SHOULD be imposed on people in many cases against their will to leave the selling price. Once again setting aside the argument about the owners right to do so, and the mods obligation to enforce the rules..... what freaking right do you have to force people to do things they do not want to do, in sale threads that do not impact you in anyway? Why do you feel that people have to justify anything to you? What makes you fit to decide what course of action has utility to some one else? From where exactly to you get this perverse sense of entitlement? ( By "you" I mean the reader in general)

Do you have any idea, and I will use a word already tossed out in this thread, how fascistic that thinking is?

Now as far as the bit about the forum keeping IP address logs and being ready to report activity to the authorities. Well that is simply troubling. I for one would hope that the owner of this forum does not keep one SINGLE shred of history or log files not expressly required by law and would fight hard not to release such information. You can not comply with a request for information you don't have.

Now that we have brought it up I am curious to know exactly what information about our connections to this server are gathered and retained for the purposes of assisting law enforcement. :(

Just to be clear...

I will comply with the rule.

I will also politely continue to speak out against it when its useful to do so in threads like this.

No I will not be convinced by specious arguments that we must leave things in personal sales thread for the good of the community at large... That's absurd.

Nor will I be lured into trying to justify my preference. It just is.

No disrepect to any one was meant here, and this reply was not targeted any one person. Dispite my quote of a previous post this was NOT a direct reply to that post.

[canonloader]

Ok, before I walk away, let me ask you this.

You said no transaction occurs on POTN, I don't disagree. But, there may be a record of conversations on POTN which would be relevant. Then you said that a death threat could be subpoenaed used by a court. How is that record any different?

It's a record. If you bought something through the newspaper and it turned out not to be what the seller claimed, wouldn't you bring the newspaper ad with you to court?

Ok, I'm done :)

dan
I never said "a death threat could be subpoenaed". In fact, it probably should be reported to the law by either the person who got the threat or the forum owners. What your missing here is that all this stuff is public already, so no need to subpoena anything.

And about the newspaper, I assume your meaning that if someone in the Sell forum were claiming to have a 30D, you bought it and he sent you a D30, it still would have very little meaning, since the transaction is not done by POTN, but by you and the seller. POTN has washed their hands of any dealings before you or a seller ever posts an item. You agree to this by being a member and then posting or following up on a post for good or services.

How any forum can be asked for records of a specific thing is beyond comprehension. How would you ever expect to find anything months after the post date by some obscure member that has deleted the record? We all know search doesn't work worth a crap anyway. ;)

[n1as]

This is really simple and is being blown out of proportion. All that is being said is that when you sell something, please don't edit the post to remove details. That's it.

I have PMed sellers after the item has sold TO ASK THEM FOR THE PRICE. When they delete the price, they prevent me from figuring out what my item is worth and I have to bug them after the fact to get the info that they had already made public.

Sorry, but removing the price does NOT prevent PMs after the sale.

It is so much easier and a better service to the POTN community to leave the ad alone. mark it "SOLD", lock the thread and be done with it.

Please ...?

[Poe]

You know there are lots of issues here. There is no end to the spin off arguments that this topic can provoke among people of good will.

Now the owner of this forum is 100 percent entitled to make up what ever rules for posting here he wants to . Until of course he charges or takes money from Members. Then there is a contract with expectations to be full filled. Once again that is another argument. But this thread is not about the absolute right of the owner of this forum to impose rules.

Nor is it about some peoples "holier than thou" ideas about what constitutes ethical capitalism. Seriously man...do whats right for you but leave me alone. That argument is just another obfuscation of the central point. They very idea that people get upset with someone buying low and selling high fills me with..... well nothing because it is so absurd that it does not merit that much attention. It's a "MARKET PLACE".

The argument "here" is whether not a rule SHOULD be imposed on people in many cases against their will to leave the selling price. Once again setting aside the argument about the owners right to do so, and the mods obligation to enforce the rules..... what freaking right do you have to force people to do things they do not want to do, in sale threads that do not impact you in anyway? Why do you feel that people have to justify anything to you? What makes you fit to decide what course of action has utility to some one else? From where exactly to you get this perverse sense of entitlement? ( By "you" I mean the reader in general)

Do you have any idea, and I will use a word already tossed out in this thread, how fascistic that thinking is?

Now as far as the bit about the forum keeping IP address logs and being ready to report activity to the authorities. Well that is simply troubling. I for one would hope that the owner of this forum does not keep one SINGLE shred of history or log files not expressly required by law and would fight hard not to release such information. You can not comply with a request for information you don't have.

Now that we have brought it up I am curious to know exactly what information about our connections to this server are gathered and retained for the purposes of assisting law enforcement. :(

Just to be clear...

I will comply with the rule.

I will also politely continue to speak out against it when its useful to do so in threads like this.

No I will not be convinced by specious arguments that we must leave things in personal sales thread for the good of the community at large... That's absurd.

Nor will I be lured into trying to justify my preference. It just is.

No disrepect to any one was meant here, and this reply was not targeted any one person. Dispite my quote of a previous post this was NOT a direct reply to that post.

There are plenty of other rules that go against the wills of other members here. You learn to live with it or stop participating and leave. This forum isn't a democracy, it is a [benevolent] dictatorship. As you aptly stated, this is Pekka's forum. He can make up whatever wacky rules he wants.

And there is nothing specious about being able to research pricing trends on the used market. This rule will serve to make this information available for those who seek. How long would you put up with answering PMs about what your selling prices were? What if you don't remember? What if you refuse? If so, you've actively made information unavailable to someone seeking it. One of the reasons POTN is great is because of the community and the vast amount of information and discussion stored on these forums. Why limit that?

[jcrane]

Looks like alot of members feel the way I do. Why should I set your price for your own equipment. I assume you purchased the camera or lens. I know what I would need to sell my equipment for. Maybe we should just put a item up for sale without prices . Then members could just PM Or Email. I think this is more policing the site. where do we live?

[Poe]

This rule isn't to force sellers to sell their items at the price someone else sold the same item for. Sellers are free to price their equipment at whatever price they choose and the buyers are free to buy at whatever price they want.

[lens pirate]

There are plenty of other rules that go against the wills of other members here. You learn to live with it or stop participating and leave. This forum isn't a democracy, it is a [benevolent] dictatorship. As you aptly stated, this is Pekka's forum. He can make up whatever wacky rules he wants.

And there is nothing specious about being able to research pricing trends on the used market. This rule will serve to make this information available for those who seek. How long would you put up with answering PMs about what your selling prices were? What if you don't remember? What if you refuse? If so, you've actively made information unavailable to someone seeking it. One of the reasons POTN is great is because of the community and the vast amount of information and discussion stored on these forums. Why limit that?


I understand your position and that you favor unlimited access to the details of my business transactions on your terms. I also understand that you think your desire or need is ample justification.

I don't feel that same sense of entitlement to yours. We disagree. No big deal except your side is forcing the issue, discounting my position. You win by authority alone. Congratulations.

Personally I would favor people that want to leave the info do so, if that is what this community REALLY wants it would happen with out the coercion.

The need for the rule is near perfect evidence this is NOT what the comunity wants.

[Poe]

I understand your position and that you favor unlimited access to the details of my business transactions on your terms. I also understand that you think your desire or need is ample justification.

I don't feel that same sense of entitlement to yours. We disagree. No big deal except your side is forcing the issue, discounting my position. You win by authority alone. Congratulations.

Personally I would favor people that want to leave the info do so, if that is what this community REALLY wants it would happen with out the coercion.

The need for the rule is near perfect evidence this is NOT what the comunity wants.

If you want a private transaction, leave it to the PMs only. Don't post in the Buy/Sell sections for others to see.

Perhaps Pekka wants the forum to track used prices and thus members who delete information are going against his desires and so has to institute a new rule. I would like to hear his thoughts. If you don't like that, you're free to use other means or start your own forum where such a rule doesn't apply.

[lens pirate]

If you want a private transaction, leave it to the PMs only. Don't post in the Buy/Sell sections for others to see.

Strawman.

[Poe]

Strawman.

Not at all. In fact the most recent transaction I had occured directly and solely through PMs due to the seller seeing my reply to a 2nd seller's post for the same item. There is now no record of the price sold on the Buy/Sell forum, thus information has been withheld from the forum. You could go through this same procedure, contacting people who have previously shown interest in buying or selling the item you have.

[lens pirate]

If you want a private transaction, leave it to the PMs only. Don't post in the Buy/Sell sections for others to see.

Perhaps Pekka wants the forum to track used prices and thus members who delete information are going against his desires and so has to institute a new rule. I would like to hear his thoughts. If you don't like that, you're free to use other means or start your own forum where such a rule doesn't apply.


You keep suggesting I leave if I don't like it. Disagreeing with a rule is no reason to leave, I will just abide by it and lobby to get it changed as I am doing now.

Do you always resort to this sort of thing when faced with opposition? Just jump right to the final solution huh?

[Poe]

You keep suggesting I leave if I don't like it. Disagreeing with a rule is no reason to leave, I will just abide by it and lobby to get it changed as I am doing now.

Do you always resort to this sort of thing when faced with opposition? Just jump right to the final solution huh?

Not at all. I'm merely pointing out your possibilities:

1) Conform
2) Conform + lobby for change
3) Use PMs
4) Don't use B/S section

I have no intention in trying to push you to leaving POTN.

[57hardtop]

If you want a private transaction, leave it to the PMs only. Don't post in the Buy/Sell sections for others to see.

Perhaps Pekka wants the forum to track used prices and thus members who delete information are going against his desires and so has to institute a new rule. I would like to hear his thoughts. If you don't like that, you're free to use other means or start your own forum where such a rule doesn't apply.

Now you speak for Pekka? I wonder what he thinks about that?!?
as are you free to leave and go elsewhere where a rule like this is in force ;)
I think you're jumping the gun...It isn't a rule

The rules are place...go here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=423242) to refresh your memory...why change a very nice set of rules that Pekka himself has taken the time to write...they are not rigid (except for a few simple ones)...why start dictating now? There is no entitlement for anyone here...if a post doesn't have the price in it after the sale, move on to the next item that does. There are usually many...if not, go look on the B&H or Adorama or whoever's website that sells used gear...seems everyone uses that as a barometer anyways.

BTW, like I stated previously, I too find it frustrating sometimes, but the problem I have with changing the rule so members must leave the price in their post isn't whether it is polite, or neighborly, or in the best interest of the "community", it's simply an issue of keeping your (my) nose out of my (your) business unless you (I) are part of my (your) business...you're (we're) just curious, that's all! For whatever reason you (I) may have, it's just plain simple curiosity, and you (I) get frustrated when you (I) can't satisfy your (my) curiosity. It's like the nosy neighbor who gets pissed off because they (we) can't see in the their (our) next door neighbor's window.

I mean no disrespect either, but please don't dictate rules to me based simply on your desires...I saw a thread proposing that certain words not be used to describe items in the buy/sell forum. Now, I will give benefit of the doubt to the OP that his post was at least partly in jest, but you know as well as I do that there is some idiot who would really truly like to have those words banned...I hope I expressed my views clearly and politely..many things in life frustrate us and piss us off...but you can't create a rule every time it happens...just deal with it...live and let live

[cnsconnor84]

This is blown way out of proportion IMO. Just leave the prices up. They were already made public. Not to mention that the price listed is not necessarily what the item sold for anyways. If people want to take their prices down after a sale maybe someone should start a thread stating the average going rate on used gear on this forum. Then people like myself who only sell things once in while would have a good fair reference point. And the people who want to delete their prices after the sale can do so (after they are figured into the average.)No need for a rule. As we all know the prices vary depending upon condition, availability, age etc. But a fair starting price is good to have. I know many may disagree but it's just a thought.

[Poe]

Now you speak for Pekka? I wonder what he thinks about that?!?
as are you free to leave and go elsewhere where a rule like this is in force ;)
I think you're jumping the gun...It isn't a rule

The rules are place...go here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=423242) to refresh your memory...why change a very nice set of rules that Pekka himself has taken the time to write...they are not rigid (except for a few simple ones)...why start dictating now? There is no entitlement for anyone here...if a post doesn't have the price in it after the sale, move on to the next item that does. There are usually many...if not, go look on the B&H or Adorama or whoever's website that sells used gear...seems everyone uses that as a barometer anyways.

BTW, like I stated previously, I too find it frustrating sometimes, but the problem I have with changing the rule so members must leave the price in their post isn't whether it is polite, or neighborly, or in the best interest of the "community", it's simply an issue of keeping your (my) nose out of my (your) business unless you (I) are part of my (your) business...you're (we're) just curious, that's all! For whatever reason you (I) may have, it's just plain simple curiosity, and you (I) get frustrated when you (I) can't satisfy your (my) curiosity. It's like the nosy neighbor who gets pissed off because they (we) can't see in the their (our) next door neighbor's window.

I mean no disrespect either, but please don't dictate rules to me based simply on your desires...I saw a thread proposing that certain words not be used to describe items in the buy/sell forum. Now, I will give benefit of the doubt to the OP that his post was at least partly in jest, but you know as well as I do that there is some idiot who would really truly like to have those words banned...I hope I expressed my views clearly and politely..many things in life frustrate us and piss us off...but you can't create a rule every time it happens...just deal with it...live and let live


I never spoke for Pekka. As per my wording, I wrote "Perhaps" meaning that the statement is a conjecture not fact. It is not my fault that you infer something that is not there.

And yes, I am free to leave to a forum that does have such a rule. But I won't, whether or not this becomes a specifically outlined rule.

No it is not a specifically outlined rule, but Skip S. has told me that it falls under the "Becase we(Moderators/Owner) said so" rule. As per the last line of the B/S rule page "Canon Digital Photography Forums and Photography-on-the.net have the sole and exclusive rights to modify, delete, or make any use whatsoever both in the Forums and in any other location and medium, of all content posted to these Forums."

When you post an ad in the B/S forum, you yourself have opened the door of your own business and allowed others to look through. And even then, this is only superficial, as no can know for certain what kind of deal may be negociated through PMs, so even a price left in an ad may not be the true price of the transaction. As the saying goes, caveat emptor.

Pekka has always been dictating(whether benevolently or malevolently is for another thread). It's his forum. Nowhere have I dictated any rules to anyone. I have no authority on this forum--I can't enforce any rules; I can merely report postings that are out of compliance and let the moderators deal with it. I am soley a member.

[jeev]

It is sellers listing, once he locks the thread after sale and feedback, It is his wish to keep or delete the price/content. We can make a general request to leave the sale price intact, Finally it is OP's call. IMO

[Skip Souza]

From this thread: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=647273

This is what we woud like to see.

~~ SOLD ~~

I just gave my wife an ASUS netbook so this laptop has become surplus.
Cost new June 2006 was $1,216 and did not include the web cam, case, or the recent RAM upgrade. It has been lightly used and is in tip top shape.

Asking $550 shipped, US only. I do not do PayPal, USPS money order only. I know that this may be a deal breaker for many so no hard feelings.
Price Drop to $500 shipped to CONUS.
Price Drop to $450
Price Drop to $425
Price Drop to $400

Compaq Presario V3000z
14.1” WXGA BrightView widescreen (1208x800)
AMD Turion™ Mobile 64 X2 TL-52
XP Home w/backup CD
2 GB RAM
100 GB HDD
LightScribe DVD writer
12 cell battery, double the run time.
802.11 b/g WLAN
Micorsoft® Works/Money

Also;
Logitech QuickCam® for notebooks
Targus™ laptop case.

[Skip Souza]

But this is what we get.

SOLD





P.S. Actually, in this case it did not sell, I gave it to my son as stated in the last post of the thread. Even this information could be valuable to someone considering selling their laptop or buying a used one.

I guess I understand the feeling that if I share information with someone then I lose my advantage over them. I just don't feel the need to have that advantage here. Perhaps I am not sufficiently competitive in this arena.

[jeev]

Once the thread is locked, Usually I do not bother to open or read the content. If folks are looking for details and find 'SOLD' it is not helping them at all.

Skip, I would say add a poll to see the response for leaving the price\content after the thread is locked.


But this is what we get.

SOLD

[Tomi Hawk]

I prefer to see what an item went for, or at least what it was originally selling for, after the sale is compelted and the thread is locked. Several boards I'm on for a variety of hobbies have this as policy.

It's helpful when pricing something of your own or when you have to go to ebay for an item.

A while back it was a "leave the prices be" policy that allowed me to know that I got a great price on a pistol.

If we're at all taking a poll I vote for add a big SOLD to the top of the post and leave the pricing in place.

-F
Thank you .. and I agree .. it's a great reference, period.

[dan j]

But this is what we get.

SOLD
That is frustrating. It's good info, no need to delete it.

I don't understand why folks are against this, it's just a rule.

dan

[57hardtop]

That is frustrating. It's good info, no need to delete it.

I don't understand why folks are against this, it's just a rule.

dan

Dan, it's not a rule...and Skip, that was your ad to do with what you pleased...and a sincere thank you for your thoughtful listing. :D

Just to set the record straight on my stance just in case there is any misunderstanding...I HATE it when items are deleted (I agree, what's the point to it, but again, it's not my ad, and the only thing "wrong" with it is that my curiosity isn't satisfied...that's my problem...hardly enough to create a rule over), but if the price is replaced with a SOLD by the OP, it's his business, not ours. I stated earlier my reasoning for when I have done this. Most of the time I don't, but I have on occasion for my reasons (which are not fraud or cheating...I have great feedback for a reason...I am honest, and so are 99% plus of our great community).

It's a matter of dictating privacy (and yes, it is a private transaction that just happened to be initiated on a public forum), and what is acceptable to some is not acceptable to all.

That's the ONLY thing I'm debating here ;)

[Poe]

Dan, it's not a rule...and Skip, that was your ad to do with what you pleased...and a sincere thank you for your thoughtful listing. :D

Just to set the record straight on my stance just in case there is any misunderstanding...I HATE it when items are deleted (I agree, what's the point to it, but again, it's not my ad, and the only thing "wrong" with it is that my curiosity isn't satisfied...that's my problem...hardly enough to create a rule over), but if the price is replaced with a SOLD by the OP, it's his business, not ours. I stated earlier my reasoning for when I have done this. Most of the time I don't, but I have on occasion for my reasons (which are not fraud or cheating...I have great feedback for a reason...I am honest, and so are 99% plus of our great community).

It's a matter of dictating privacy (and yes, it is a private transaction that just happened to be initiated on a public forum), and what is acceptable to some is not acceptable to all.

That's the ONLY thing I'm debating here ;)



Not so long ago, it wasn't a rule to lock your threads after the item(s) in your listing were sold. But now it is.

Care to share your reasons why you removed the prices?

[57hardtop]

Skip, believe it or not, contrary to my previous posts, I too find it frustrating when I go to look at an item that has sold only find the original (or reduced) price replaced with a big red SOLD, but to have a mandate that requires that members must leave it untouched is fascist (OK, that may a bit too extreme, but you get my drift). As I stated in my post from your original thread, many times it can hurt the buyer when he gets a good deal on something and decides he wants to sell it later. Many people really do think that if he asks the going market value for the item that he is not being fair...ripping them off. I have had this experience personally. As to why people delete the whole item in the listing completely is beyond me, but it is their choice for whatever reason they have. If there was some hanky panky (fraud or cheating) going on, isn't it the buyer's problem and their responsibility to take action...remember, the forum won't do anything for them (nor should they as it is a private transaction). I personally don't think there are too many shady transactions going on here as these are honest people here for the most part, and if someone screws someone, word gets out...maybe not in the feedback forum, but it gets out (pm's and emails). People really do pm other members to ask about previous transactions with people, and that's when the truth comes out if someone isn't trustworthy.

Frustrating, yes...rant worthy, sure...but to create a forum rule preventing it, c'mon now ;)

posted previously

[Poe]

posted previously

Why would it hurt the buyer? You think other buyers are going to want the same selling price? Well, if that's the case then, tough. But I doubt someone wouldn't buy it at their asking price even it if was higher than the original purchase price. The original seller shouldn't have priced it so low. Do you think that this is going to cause prices to collapse? I don't see what kind of market force is going to be turned upside down due to sellers who cannot delete their selling prices.

How about all these people selling stuff they bought back in the fall when ebay was running that 25% cashback through live.com? I doubt that that hurt buyers looking to resell the gear at a profit after the cashback award went away.

Any examples of a seller here who was hurt because he bought an item for less then sold it for more?

[57hardtop]

Why would it hurt the buyer? You think other buyers are going to want the same selling price? Well, if that's the case then, tough. But I doubt someone wouldn't buy it at their asking price even it if was higher than the original purchase price. The original seller shouldn't have priced it so low. Do you think that this is going to cause prices to collapse? I don't see what kind of market force is going to be turned upside down due to sellers who cannot delete their selling prices.

How about all these people selling stuff they bought back in the fall when ebay was running that 25% cashback through live.com? I doubt that that hurt buyers looking to resell the gear at a profit after the cashback award went away.

Any examples of a seller here who was hurt because he bought an item for less then sold it for more?

Would you please do your research of this thread and the thread that lead to this thread...I'm tired of repeating myself and I'm sure others who have been following from the start are tired of me having to repeat myself. ;)

OK...for the last time, yes, this has happened to me...I bought something dirt cheap and later (much later) tried to sell it for more than I bought it for (still at a very fair price)...I was reminded of that fact by someone who researched the past posts. He pm'd me and called me a "dick" for not passing along the great deal I was lucky enough to get. I have also seen where people actually ask in the seller's post "didn't you buy this from so and so for $xx.xx?". :mad: Now before you say that that is price policing and against the rules (it is, and it is), it still happens. The mods do their best to eliminate posts like that, but they can't and don't get them all. It still happens...thus ruining a possible legitimate fair sale for the seller...as wonderful as this community is, there are still some jerks.

[57hardtop]

Any examples of a seller here who was hurt because he bought an item for less then sold it for more?
How would he be hurt by that? He would be hurt when he can't make the sale :confused:

[lens pirate]

Its does not have to make sense to you POE. Nobody has to explain or justify their preference to you. I don't want to go down that path, but you keep asking for explanations.

I like to remove my asking price because once sold it belongs to the buyer and its nobody's business but the buyers. PERIOD. EVER. IF the buyers wants to release that info he can.

When I buy something its nobody's business what I paid...

Also once various states and government entity's start trying to tax Internet sales and profits it will be damned obvious why its best to remove the price.

But forget all that..... I just want it that way.... As long as I am not harming anyone, or breaking laws I should be able to conduct sales and manage the information in my own sales thread. That personal freedom should trump anyones Else's claim "based on nothing" to my buyers information. You should have the freedom to leave the information if you like. I support you in doing so. Why can't you extend me the same courtesy?

I am not the only one that feels this way here. Are you trying to prove us wrong?
I think the way I think and feel the way I do.

I don't really care that much about the issue, but I am really suprised at peoples willingness to involve themselves in the business of others.

I am done here since this will just go in circles with you trying to change my mind and me getting annoyed. Unless you can directly answer why you think its your business what a buyer and seller do in a sales thread you were not part of, I must conclude that we have such different world views there is no basis for further communication.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[Poe]

Would you please do your research of this thread and the thread that lead to this thread...I'm tired of repeating myself and I'm sure others who have been following from the start are tired of me having to repeat myself. ;)

OK...for the last time, yes, this has happened to me...I bought something dirt cheap and later (much later) tried to sell it for more than I bought it for (still at a very fair price)...I was reminded of that fact by someone who researched the past posts. He pm'd me and called me a "dick" for not passing along the great deal I was lucky enough to get. I have also seen where people actually ask in the seller's post "didn't you buy this from so and so for $xx.xx?". :mad: Now before you say that that is price policing and against the rules (it is, and it is), it still happens. The mods do their best to eliminate posts like that, but they can't and don't get them all. It still happens...thus ruining a possible legitimate fair sale for the seller...as wonderful as this community is, there are still some jerks.

There are always going to be jerks. If he missed out on a great deal, that's too bad for him. Don't penalize the rest of us because you had a run-in with a jerk.

How would he be hurt by that? He would be hurt when he can't make the sale :confused:

With the right price and demand, there will be sale. There are other places to sell gear besides POTN.

[Poe]

Its does not have to make sense to you POE. Nobody has to explain or justify their preference to you. I don't want to go down that path, but you keep asking for explanations.

Of course. I want to hear supporting arguments on why sellers should be able delete their prices. And I have yet to read something convincing. If you're going to debate, you need to back up your argument which is why I ask for explanations and supporting evidence. Broad sweeping generalities are not evidence.

I like to remove my asking price because once sold it belongs to the buyer and its nobody's business but the buyers. PERIOD. EVER. IF the buyers wants to release that info he can.

When I buy something its nobody's business what I paid...

Also once various states and government entity's start trying to tax Internet sales and profits it will be damned obvious why its best to remove the price.

Pure fear-mongering.

But forget all that..... I just want it that way.... As long as I am not harming anyone, or breaking laws I should be able to conduct sales and manage the information in my own sales thread. That personal freedom should trump anyones Else's claim "based on nothing" to my buyers information. You should have the freedom to leave the information if you like. I support you in doing so. Why can't you extend me the same courtesy?

This is Pekka's forum. You have no rights or freedoms here.

I am not the only one that feels this way here. Are you trying to prove us wrong?

Yes

I think the way I think and feel the way I do.

I don't really care that much about the issue, but I am really suprised at peoples willingness to involve themselves in the business of others.

Asking to keep your selling price is hardly getting involved in anyone's business. If I started asking the buyer where they got the money or how are they going to pay or asking the seller what they are going to do with the money from the sale, that would be an over-involvement in your business. Including those that like to ask "why are you selling?" questions.

I am done here since this will just go in circles with you trying to change my mind and me getting annoyed. Unless you can directly answer why you think its your business what a buyer and seller do in a sales thread you were not part of, I must conclude that we have such different world views there is no basis for further communication.

It's evident that I won't be able to change your way of thinking at all. This is the reason why I think the sale price should stay: it becomes a reference for future sellers and buyers.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Thanks! You too!

[cdifoto]

This is Pekka's forum. You have no rights or freedoms here.
Pekka's not a tyrant.

[jeev]

+1 ...

[quote=lens pirate;7764357]I like to remove my asking price because once sold it belongs to the buyer and its nobody's business but the buyers. PERIOD. EVER. IF the buyers wants to release that info he can.

When I buy something its nobody's business what I paid...

[Poe]

Pekka's not a tyrant.

He has kindly bestowed upon us nice privileges, but no rights or freedoms.

[57hardtop]

There are other places to sell gear besides POTN.

yes, there is, and with reasoning like that, there are also other places to "research" pricing on used camera gear. It is not an entitlement to have the convenience of researching prices here on POTN...it's a benefit...one that is not required in writing...nor should it be.

Of course. I want to hear supporting arguments on why sellers should be able delete their prices. And I have yet to read something convincing. If you're going to debate, you need to back up your argument which is why I ask for explanations and supporting evidence. Broad sweeping generalities are not evidence.

Reasoning like that is like saying someone is guilty and has to prove his innocence...I thought it was the other way around...precisely the mentality I am arguing against!

It's evident that I won't be able to change your way of thinking at all. This is the reason why I think the sale price should stay

So it's your way by default because that's the way you like it...so we'll change the rules because you can't change our minds (at least not based on your arguments for a rule change)

He has kindly bestowed upon us nice privileges, but no rights or freedoms.

Poe, I am done arguing with you..you are not contributing anything to this debate but antagonistic verbiage with no valid substance...you are just trying to annoy us now.

lenspirate makes a valid and very good point regarding internet taxes, whether you choose to believe it or not...it won't be long before it's here if we're not vigilant about it.

[skifurthur]

I think many people are over thinking this one. This is a private forum open to membership. The owner of the site can make any rule they want, unless it violates a law, without having to worry about what the members say. If the owner wants to ban all left-handed people from posting they can. If they want to ban everyone that uses the word irregardless, they can.

The only recourse a member has is to comply or move on. The internet is a fine place to find a community that fits each person's wants and needs. Your rights are not violated in any way if the owner puts up any rule they want because you are captured...you can leave anytime you want. If the owner wants to make a rule that you must leave price information in the original post, they can and a member has to follow that rule or they can be sanctioned. If you don't like it, tough.

[57hardtop]

skifurther, that's one of my points exactly...but as of right now, there is no rule stating that prices must be left posted after the sale...period. For those who want to change the status quo and create a specific rule, just move on if you don't like the way it stands now. Why don't you live by your own reasoning, instead of insisting that we (who prefer the way it is now) move on?

I do agree that this has been blown waaay out of proportion. It's really quite simple and boils down to this (mind you, this is my opinion)...there is no rule because it's never been an issue. It became an issue when Skip got frustrated, blew his cool and posted his frustration. If you or I had posted what he posted it would have been removed (he can say it would not have been, but I've seen lesser inflammatory posts removed for no apparent reason). It then escalated slowly by people chiming in agreeing with Skip (the power of the mod is awesome), and saying that people who remove prices are up to no good and only could be trying to cover up their dirty dealings (accusatory remarks like those are left posted BTW, go figure). Let the witch hunt begin...

Here's another thought. let's say if, just if, everyone in the "freedom" camp moved on like you propose we do, aren't you (the "research" camp) just screwing yourselves? Even if the number of those who leave is only 10% to 20%, wouldn't you be losing out on 10% to 20% of the opportunities to purchase quality used gear? And for those playing the "I need to research" hand, you're not gaining anything by us leaving except for the fact that you'll have guaranteed that every post you open to "research" will have a price left intact (but you still never know what it actually sold for because that was agreed to in PM's)...just something to ponder. ;)

And Skip, I am not trying to get on your bad side (if I'm not already there)...I'm just stating my opinion. I know you are a fine person :D who is completely open to, and would welcome, a little criticism of one particular rant ;)

[Poe]

yes, there is, and with reasoning like that, there are also other places to "research" pricing on used camera gear. It is not an entitlement to have the convenience of researching prices here on POTN...it's a benefit...one that is not required in writing...nor should it be.

It already is. I wrote in a previous post that the owner & moderators reserve the "because we said so" rule. Thus, it is in effect.

Reasoning like that is like saying someone is guilty and has to prove his innocence...I thought it was the other way around...precisely the mentality I am arguing against!

This isn't a US court, no one is on trial here. It's a simple debate. If you choose to debate, you need to back it up with specifics. That's all I am asking.

So it's your way by default because that's the way you like it...so we'll change the rules because you can't change our minds (at least not based on your arguments for a rule change)

If you're going to quote me, quote the entire sentance, not break it up to suit your own needs.

Poe, I am done arguing with you..you are not contributing anything to this debate but antagonistic verbiage with no valid substance...you are just trying to annoy us now.

I don't roll over when debating. I have been polite this entire discussion.

lenspirate makes a valid and very good point regarding internet taxes, whether you choose to believe it or not...it won't be long before it's here if we're not vigilant about it.

The majority of people here are not making an income by selling or flipping gear. I don't think that it should be necessary to hide prices when such information has yet to be used for the purposes of taxation. If the time comes that such taxation goes into effect, the disclosure of prices can then be dealt with at that time. Besides, what makes you think that hiding the "public" price will protect you? If the government gets involved, you'll have to disclose your "private" price.

[Poe]

skifurther, that's one of my points exactly...but as of right now, there is no rule stating that prices must be left posted after the sale...period. For those who want to change the status quo and create a specific rule, just move on if you don't like the way it stands now. Why don't you live by your own reasoning, instead of insisting that we (who prefer the way it is now) move on?

I do agree that this has been blown waaay out of proportion. It's really quite simple and boils down to this (mind you, this is my opinion)...there is no rule because it's never been an issue. It became an issue when Skip got frustrated, blew his cool and posted his frustration. If you or I had posted what he posted it would have been removed (he can say it would not have been, but I've seen lesser inflammatory posts removed for no apparent reason). It then escalated slowly by people chiming in agreeing with Skip (the power of the mod is awesome), and saying that people who remove prices are up to no good and only could be trying to cover up their dirty dealings (accusatory remarks like those are left posted BTW, go figure). Let the witch hunt begin...

Here's another thought. let's say if, just if, everyone in the "freedom" camp moved on like you propose we do, aren't you (the "research" camp) just screwing yourselves? Even if the number of those who leave is only 10% to 20%, wouldn't you be losing out on 10% to 20% of the opportunities to purchase quality used gear? And for those playing the "I need to research" hand, you're not gaining anything by us leaving except for the fact that you'll have guaranteed that every post you open to "research" will have a price left intact (but you still never know what it actually sold for because that was agreed to in PM's)...just something to ponder. ;)

And Skip, I am not trying to get on your bad side (if I'm not already there)...I'm just stating my opinion. I know you are a fine person :D who is completely open to, and would welcome, a little criticism of one particular rant ;)

Maybe Skip has been contacted by members requesting that prices be left in ads. Maybe the staff has had some kind of discussion and came to an agreement that prices should be left in an ad. We don't know if this has been the unilateral decision by one person or the decision of the POTN staff. I have asked and will continue to ask Pekka and the rest of the staff to let us know.

[57hardtop]

I stand on what I said Poe...I have given you my thoughts and reasons...yet you still won't/don't comprehend, or even acknowledge others' opinions because they differ from yours...you just keep saying show me show me

and I don't think that Skip's post was in response or as a result of a POTN staff meeting...had it been, it would not have been so "angry". Also, if you also notice, he edited the original post...thus leaving us to rely on our memories to recall how the original wording read...it was not a mandate but a plea.

[57hardtop]

Let me just say this...if it is a new "official" rule, Skip, could you just please state so right here, so this debate can end in peace. I will not debate this any longer if it is, in fact, a new rule that is in place...I will simply abide by it 100% of the time instead of 75% of the time.

[cdifoto]

As far as I know, new rules are made into stickies.

[H20boy]

Instead of adding any fuel to the already smoldering thread, I opted for a shorter response. For the record, I keep all of my prices in the original post. I am FOR the information remaining in the ad.

We must remember, this free membership-based forum is our conduit for making all of these sales and purchases; it's the reason why most of us don't use ebay any more. Selection is better, prices are surely better, 99.9% trustworthy buyers/sellers, and it's done w/o anyone paying out fees for listing, final selling price, etc. Does the forum and its members benefit any from a thread that has the information or price deleted? It does not. Do we benefit if they are left in tact? I think yes, albeit limited and put into the context to which the item was listed. For that reason, that is why I think it is being asked we leave the prices and information alone.

BTW, sellers will always get low-ball PMs, that's just a fact to posting any for sale threads.

[Poe]

I stand on what I said Poe...I have given you my thoughts and reasons...yet you still won't/don't comprehend, or even acknowledge others' opinions because they differ from yours...you just keep saying show me show me

and I don't think that Skip's post was in response or as a result of a POTN staff meeting...had it been, it would not have been so "angry". Also, if you also notice, he edited the original post...thus leaving us to rely on our memories to recall how the original wording read...it was not a mandate but a plea.

Allow me to clarify:

I understand and acknowledge your thoughts and opinions as well as those of others. I disagree with your thoughts and opinions as well as a few others who have posted here. My previous posts give my reasons why I disagree and pointed out the reasons why I agree with this new policy.

leroy_sunset made this following post [here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=7747323&postcount=203)], which was followed by Skip's post [here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=7751502&postcount=1)]. Considering the time stamps of these posts, I believe that Skip's post was in reponse to another member's post.

[57hardtop]

new proposed policy, as I understand it

[Poe]

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Palladium]

...Does the forum and its members benefit any from a thread that has the information or price deleted? It does not. Do we benefit if they are left in tact? I think yes, albeit limited ...

well I havn't read most of this thread or any other thread re: keeping the selling prices listed in ads - this that said

IMHO I don't see any point in having the "asking" prices kept in the ads after the items sells. In my experience most items do do not sell at the original asking price so what the point.

I don't think I've purchased an item on POTN at the original asking price.

Maybe we should have a survey how

Would you say you have you purchased more or less items on POTN at the original asking price.

What I'll do it and think others should do is just put higher asking amounts in the ads...

[Poe]

well I havn't read most of this thread or any other thread re: keeping the selling prices listed in ads - this that said

IMHO I don't see any point in having the "asking" prices kept in the ads after the items sells. In my experience most items do do not sell at the original asking price so what the point.

I don't think I've purchased an item on POTN at the original asking price.

Maybe we should have a survey how

Would you say you have you purchased more or less items on POTN at the original asking price.

What I'll do it and think others should do is just put higher asking amounts in the ads...

When you say original asking price, do you mean the first price the seller lists their item without accounting for any price drops they may add later?

My purchases here have always been done by the current price shown in their thread. I would only negociate a lower price in PMs if I was interested in a local pickup to save on shipping and paypal fees.

[Bubble]

or implement the "mod' to this vb script (not sure if vb has some mod like that yet) that will keep the previous version of the thread just like FM forum. That way, no matter what they change or delete, it still there as a record. sample like this:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewedits.php?mid=6743906&page=0

I disagree on this idea because many times, some of the member here VERY SNEAKY by searching for the lowest price that was sold in the past (without knowing the story behine why it was sold for cheap) then USE that price figure to bargain with the current sale. This was discuss many times but someone still cry a river over it. Geez

[Ry-Cam]

Thanks for the sticky on this Skip. I agree. I often find when researching prices that I have to look at people's replies, where they've quoted the original post, to see what the item was originally listed for.

[DDCSD]

I disagree on this idea because many times, some of the member here VERY SNEAKY by searching for the lowest price that was sold in the past (without knowing the story behine why it was sold for cheap) then USE that price figure to bargain with the current sale. This was discuss many times but someone still cry a river over it. Geez

The seller can always reject the low offer and sell it to someone that is willing to pay what they are asking... ;)

[Bubble]

The seller can always reject the low offer and sell it to someone that is willing to pay what they are asking... ;)

i still delete my posted price after i sell it. I don't endorse this kind of behavior. :)

[DDCSD]

i still delete my posted price after i sell it. I don't endorse this kind of behavior. :)

How do you set your selling price? Just pull a random number out of the air?

[Bubble]

How do you set your selling price? Just pull a random number out of the air?

Using the typical "used price rule" 10 to 20% off from BH current price. That is fair for used (regardless of 1 days old or 10 years old). I don't search for previous sold price at forum.

[DDCSD]

And for bodies or flashes?

[Skip Souza]

This is a very good reason for leaving prices in posts. The emphasis is mine.
Price lowered after doing much market research and finding comps, it should be priced for a quick sale now.
........................

[Bubble]

And for bodies or flashes?

same shiet. :rolleyes: Sometime i have stuff that i don't use or need to get extra fund to get new toy then i sell at almost giveaway price. I don't think it's fair for the next seller have to match with my crazy price. It works on the same token when you buy/sell. So just stop whinning about this stuff.

[lens pirate]

Well it is a done deal:

Freedom < entitlement
Tempertantrum > reason


And for the record I price my stuff the same exact way another poster just mentioned. Check new prices at Discount on line vendors then reduce by 10 to 20 percent. Easy. Hell of a lot better and more accurate than looking at wishful first offer prices on these sales thread.

But I admit defeat. I have two masters to serve here now, this rule and MY buyers reasonable expectation of privacy. So I from here on in I will list an asking price somewhat higher than I need and asks buyers to negotiate in PM.

It will go like this:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have a nifty 50 for sale.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS AD.
ONLY USE Private messages.

Sale price is 1,000,000 dollars, but I am very open to reasonable private offers using the private message system.

Thank you for your consideration
-------------------------------------------------------------


That is of course if this idea is with in the rules and it seems to be.
Let me know if it isn't because I am thinking about listing some items.

[Skip Souza]

The "right to privacy" is an often misunderstood concept and there is no "right" to it when posting in public.

[lens pirate]

The "right to privacy" is an often misunderstood concept and there is no "right" to it when posting in public.

Of course you are correct. Still I am sure you understood my point, despite your objection to my poorly nuanced use of the word "right".

Or perhaps not? Maybe the folks on my side of this issue have not done a good job making our case?

I wonder if you would indulge us just once more? Do you think you could in your own words describe our objections to this new rule? That way we could at least rest easy knowing we were heard and not dismissed out of hand.

I will edit my original post to correct my error.

[dan j]

Folks should just stop selling here if it's that much of an issue. No one is forcing anyone to list things for sale here. The folks that strongly disagree know there's other places to list them and they can abide by the rules on those sites.

Go tell Ebay you don't agree with their ever changing rules and see what they say.

dan

[Skip Souza]

I can not tell you what you think, I can only tell you the way I am hearing it. Also, the opposition to leaving the prices and other information is not monolithic, there are several reasons being cited.

It is not just the opposition to leaving prices up there are a few users that delete all information once the sale is made.

The main reason I am hearing is that once the sale is made, the details of the sale belong solely to the parties of the sale and no one is entitled to any information regarding that sale. This is apparently the perceived opinion of a minority of traders here, most of the traders are not concerned, in fact they believe it is to the benefit of the POTN community that all information remain in place.

Those that adamantly oppose the sharing of this information appear to be acting out of a need to maintain some sort of trading advantage over other members. By controlling all the information they can better manipulate the market to their advantage by using the old adage that "Knowledge is power".

I have seen it stated that by leaving up prices they may be approached by a possible buyer with "Well so-and-so was selling his for only $xxx. If that is posted publicly it is price policing and will be deleted. If that is posted privately it is called negotiating. If the price is too low for you to sell an appropriate PM would be; "Good, go buy it from so-and-so then" :lol: Just don't come whining to the rest of us about low ball offers in private and report all price policing and public negotiations.

I have little sympathy for those that are seeking an advantage by withholding information. Once posted here it is and will remain public information. If you can not live with that then do not post here or do not post the information (Contrary to popular belief, an asking price need not be posted). In fact you need not post any public information at all.

Sample For Sale thread
Title: Canon gear.
Post Body:
I have some very good canon gear for sale. For the sake of confidentiality I will only respond privately providing descriptions and prices.

Yeah, right. Good luck with such a sale.
If you can't stand the scrutiny of public posting of descriptions and prices then don't.

[lens pirate]

Thanks. Looks like I need to work on my communication skills.

[Bubble]

perfect solution here ONCE AGAIN:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=7790669&postcount=88

it will make everyone happy. lolz

[dan j]

That only allows the mods to see unedited posts and pricing, right? If so, that's not going to help folks figure out the market.

dan

[Bubble]

That only allows the mods to see unedited posts and pricing, right? If so, that's not going to help folks figure out the market.

dan

no, EVERYONE will see it. Not just mod. It will show how many time you edit your post and each of the "edit" version is availble to view as well.

[Jon]

perfect solution here ONCE AGAIN:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=7790669&postcount=88

it will make everyone happy. lolz
Pekka, who has to maintain the code and the site's security, has repeatedly and publicly stated that he will not implement outside modifications to the basic vBulletin code. He will only implement changes that are fully supported by vBulletin, in order to maintain the security and integrity of this site. You don't want a vulnerability, introduced by an inadequately tested patch, leaving your e-mail vulnerable to crackers and spammers, do you? It's his time and money that's keeping this site running. How much have you contributed to that effort?

[dan j]

Oh I see, Alex.

Absolutely don't want that Jon.

dan

[Poe]

I wonder if you would indulge us just once more? Do you think you could in your own words describe our objections to this new rule? That way we could at least rest easy knowing we were heard and not dismissed out of hand.

As far as I can tell, the objections are:

seller/buyer expectation/right to privacy
sellers avoiding low-ball offers from buyers when reselling equipment bought at a deeply discounted price earlier on the buy/sell thread that the buyer found through searching the archives.And here is why I believe they don't hold water:

you have no rights to privacy on this privately owned and operated forum. Currently, there is a minimum amount of privacy in PMs; however if the owner wanted to log PMs he could do so without any permission needed on your part. That was pretty much agreed upon when you registered here on POTN. If you failed to read the terms of agreement, that's a fault on your part. I don't expect any privacy here on this forum and I think it's naive to expect it.
Just ignore the low-ball offer! The mods can only act upon price police posts in the item thread, not PMs...but you can do something abotu the PMs! Your constitution needs to get a lot more stronger if low-ball offers bother you that greatly.

[Poe]

...

But I admit defeat. I have two masters to serve here now, this rule and MY buyers reasonable expectation of privacy. So I from here on in I will list an asking price somewhat higher than I need and asks buyers to negotiate in PM.

It will go like this:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have a nifty 50 for sale.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS AD.
ONLY USE Private messages.

Sale price is 1,000,000 dollars, but I am very open to reasonable private offers using the private message system.

Thank you for your consideration
-------------------------------------------------------------

...


It's disappointing to see a valuable member actively work to disrupt the usefulness of this resource.

[lens pirate]

It's disappointing to see a valuable member actively work to disrupt the usefulness of this resource.


\ignore
\unsubscribe

[Poe]

\ignore
\unsubscribe

:rolleyes:

bw!

[BobbyM]

I think POTN should just hire a team of accountants to work the sell forum. This way they can have each seller fill out a questionnaire with date/price of purchase, use, care, love, etc of the item being sold.... This way the prices will properly adjust for inflation, depreciation, etc..

We can then a have properly adjusted second hand economy for gear.
:eyes

---------------------
I agree with the people who say prices fluctuate depending on the sellers reason for selling.\\
--------------------------

Take some time and read in the business section to see how many photographers think that lowballing, TFP, TFCD, etc. and are hurting the business of photography. Forcing people to leave prices on their post after the thread is closed is similar to that.

In this thread I read people saying that 10-20% off online an stores price is a norm for them secondhand..

Well, lets say today the norm is 15% off B&H's price. currenbtly canon is offering rebates, so that 15% is actually more than 15% because B&H includes the rebate as "instant". Tomorrow, somebody wants to sell the item that was the norm of 15% off the last three sales here. But this seller really needs the cash, so instead of 15% off he is selling at 20% off.. normally he would probably delete his price because he knows he was lowballing, but if we are FORCED to keep the price up, the next person in line is going to see that and use it to justify their buying price.

It's a slippery slope FORCING people to leave their prices listed in the post, it should be a choice. After all, everything is only worth what you are willing to pay for it.

[Tomi Hawk]

It's a slippery slope, it should be a choice. After all, everything is only worth what you are willing to pay for it.
A very slippery slope indeed .. and after thinking about it, (now that you put it that way)
you are absolutely correct lol!

Choices are the bestest! I like choices .. ;)

[JackLiu]

In my opinion I feel the seller should leave the selling price of an item on the original post. When sold, add that word in big red letters. My thought is the seller will price his item at a fair market value because if it is too high, it will not sell, if it is too low, it will go like hotcakes! Just me.

[mikeassk]

If something is sold then why would anybody want to hide that information?

Ohhhhh wait,
lots of people are greedy...They need to control everything.
i forgot.

[dan j]

Well, lets say today the norm is 15% off B&H's price. currenbtly canon is offering rebates, so that 15% is actually more than 15% because B&H includes the rebate as "instant".
Your point would probably go over better if certain retailers weren't raising their prices to the rebates level, effectively eating/removing the rebate :(


It's Pekka's forum. I'm just glad to be here.

dan

[BobbyM]

Your point would probably go over better if certain retailers weren't raising their prices to the rebates level, effectively eating/removing the rebate :(


My point really has nothing to do with the current rebates. I just threw that in there because it is what is happening now. It didn't alter the scenario.;)

but yea, I agree places hike the prices while the rebates are being offered.

[dan j]

My point really has nothing to do with the current rebates. I just threw that in there because it is what is happening now. It didn't alter the scenario.;)

but yea, I agree places hike the prices while the rebates are being offered.Well, it's relevant if your thinking is that the retailers are going to leave lens prices at their new "retail" value once the consumer rebates are over. Based on your second paragraph you recognize it's a scam.

dan

[BobbyM]

Well, it's relevant if your thinking is that the retailers are going to leave lens prices at their new "retail" value once the consumer rebates are over. Based on your second paragraph you recognize it's a scam.

dan

/shrug

I wrote a separate sentence saying "...current rebates, which is actually more..."; but still only used 15%(base second hand price) in my point.

[dan j]

/shrug

dan :)

[Poe]

I think POTN should just hire a team of accountants to work the sell forum. This way they can have each seller fill out a questionnaire with date/price of purchase, use, care, love, etc of the item being sold.... This way the prices will properly adjust for inflation, depreciation, etc..

We can then a have properly adjusted second hand economy for gear.
:eyes

---------------------
I agree with the people who say prices fluctuate depending on the sellers reason for selling.\\
--------------------------

Take some time and read in the business section to see how many photographers think that lowballing, TFP, TFCD, etc. and are hurting the business of photography. Forcing people to leave prices on their post after the thread is closed is similar to that.

In this thread I read people saying that 10-20% off online an stores price is a norm for them secondhand..

Well, lets say today the norm is 15% off B&H's price. currenbtly canon is offering rebates, so that 15% is actually more than 15% because B&H includes the rebate as "instant". Tomorrow, somebody wants to sell the item that was the norm of 15% off the last three sales here. But this seller really needs the cash, so instead of 15% off he is selling at 20% off.. normally he would probably delete his price because he knows he was lowballing, but if we are FORCED to keep the price up, the next person in line is going to see that and use it to justify their buying price.

It's a slippery slope FORCING people to leave their prices listed in the post, it should be a choice. After all, everything is only worth what you are willing to pay for it.

Which business section?

Sellers don't lowball...buyers do when they make a substantially lower offer than asking price.

You say that 10-20% is norm, so what's wrong with the seller listing his item for 20% off instead of 15%? It's not going to create a domino effect of devaluing. That would nice(for me), but it's not going to happen.

And through my browsing of the rules, I haven't seen anything that says you MUST have a price in your listing. So for all those people who don't like this rule that's FORCING you to leave your price in your thread, just don't put one to begin with and just use your PM to discuss price.

[Sibil]

I like when ppl leave the price in the original post. I sold my camera and lens here and it was useful to go back to previous sales to price my items right for a quick sale. It was really annoying though to see many people deleting the original info.

+1. I look for the going price for a piece of gear, and often find the advertised price replaced with 'SOLD." I find it very useful when the price is kept intact, regardless of the possibility that the seller and buyer may have negotiated a different price via PMs

[bobcan]

That's the least that should be done.

I know folks used to quote the OP in their response which would store the original info. I still think it'd be better if the OP was locked. Is their anyway to lock the OP and have it copied to reply #1 which would be editable?

Oh, and Skip, I've read almost 20% of the stickies! ;)

dan

This "reasoning" I like as well.. the Prices certainly only Reflect the Value for a very specific Time, but it is Interesting and Useful if you take it far what it is I think.. and curiously, I as well have read "at least" 20% of the Stickies!! =-)

[syntrix]

Wow what a long thread!

I am now leaving prices in my posts when they are sold. Before I sell something I'll usually do some research to see what that item is selling for, and then adjust my prices (higher or lower) accordingly.

There's more to just a price. Things like care, date codes, defects, scratches, etc etc... y'all get the point... many items can affect the price.

Honestly it should be up to the OP, but I like the sticky in the FS forum, and I'm happy to leave the prices.