PC trouble, Dual monitor and slower performance?

[Moppie]

Just a question for those with Dual monitors, did you notice any performance changes?

I have an AMD Athalon XP2600+ 512mb of Dual channel DDR Ram and slightly fried Nvidia GeForce4 MX440 AGP 8x.

I picked up a free monitor from my landlord who didn't want to ship it over seas.
My primary monitor is hooked up to the card via the digital outpur and an adaptor that came with it, and the 2nd monitor is hooked up to the VGA output on the card.

It works perfectly, except since I set it up the whole system seems to have slowed down.
PS proccess take longer to work, it takes longer to refreash the desktop after closing applications etc etc. Anything display related is slowing down.

Iv done a spyware and virus scan, so I know they are not the problem, and there are no odd process running that shouldn't be.

Anyone else experianced the same problem?

[tim]

Do some performance tests, remove the 2nd monitor, repeat the tests.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I've not been aware of Dual monitors slowing things down perceptibly...

[Citizensmith]

They'd certainly make the graphics card work harder. Yours is a low spec card, but even that shouldn't break a sweat kicking out 2048x768 or whatever resolution you ended up on in 2D. It really shouldn't be giving you a performance hit.

As Tim said, remove it and see if things go back to normal. It'll help you to track down whats causing this problem.

[JohnClark]

get more ram, at least 1 gb, get a better video card, try ATI, 9800xt should be good for ya. That old video card isn't gonna cut it. if you gonna get tricky, get a pci express mother board, try finding x850 l 512mb, i have 2 but it will cost ya. pci express is the wave of the furture man.

[CyberDyneSystems]

.. er,
A 32 MB Matrox G400 can run dual monitors with no hiccups,..

[KennyG]

I must agree with CDS. PCI Express cards with fast processors and lots of memory are great for games, but for PS work you simply need fast 2D performance with good colour accuracy. You are better off spending your money on more system memory.

[Moppie]

pci express is the wave of the furture man.


Cool man :rolleyes::rolleyes:


Thanks CDS and Ken, Ill try some tests tomorrow with only one monitor set up, see if I can narrow down whats causing it.

I thought the card would be able to handle it easily, was more curious if others had experianced a similar problem.

The card has been over heated in the past, so its possible its the cause of the problem.

[gaza]

I assume the only change you've made is to add the second monitor, if so then what could cause the computer to have to wait for the card? Is the dual monitor set up as one big desktop, two different ones or two of the same- probably shouldn't make any difference. Check that the card is not trying to drive the two monitors at different refresh rates, that may give it some grief.

[Wazza]

My system is also slowing down, but that's coz it's nearing my annual reformat time.

I use pcpitstop.com
Seems to do fine tests, and can easily retest online after changing some settings.
I'm still running PIV 2.4Ghz with 1Gb DDR, and 128Mb Geforce 4, all bought back in Feb 2003. (man I thought it was fast back then)

[Moppie]

I checked the refreash rates, the card limits them both to the fastest possible setting for the slowest monitor, which is 60mhz (the 2nd monitor was a freebie :) )

I then had a look in device manager, and discovered my PC thinks it has four montors installed!
I dsiabled two, and then three of them, which made no differnce, so I don't know what happened there.

It took me some time to figure out how nView worked with two monitors, and how I wanted to set it up. (I went with dual view, which leaves the primary monitor as if it hasnt canged, and then just displays the same background in the second monitor, and but leaves it clear to put what ever windows, icons etc I like in it, not even any tool bars show up, unless I put them there.


But another half gig or ram wouldn't go amiss :)

[Sketcher]

Moppie,

What do you mean by 'slightly fried' GeForce? No doubt that more RAM almost always helps, but...

By virtue of your platform spec, RAM and video card stated there should be no noticeable hit on performance. I'd wager that you've turned on a little more of the nView apps than a default config usually installs. nView has a lot of functionality in it beyond just turning on a 2nd monitor; but that functionality is bought with a CPU hit when you're playing with MX series Nvidia cards.

Two weeks ago, I installed a triple monitor config on an old Dell PII 400Mhz w/512MB RAM. The cards were a 3D Prophet II GTS 32MB AGP and two GeForce2 MX PCI. Even with Windows 2000 Pro on that machine, all three monitors purred along quite nicely and apps were as snappy as they can be on that sort of aging platform. However, turning on any one of the additional nView apps brought the system to its knees. That's because with the lower horsepower cards; the graphics processing is offloaded directly onto the processor and available RAM.

Right now, the main workstation in my home office is an AMD 1.4Ghz T-bird with 1GB RAM. I'm running triple 20" LCD's ala ATI 9600 AIW and a Nvidia Geforce2 MX and it runs smooth as butter.

So, both of my configurations have Nvidia tech in them, are less powerful than your stated rig and they perform flawlessly. I'll stick with my wager that your enabled nView apps or driver configuration is just confused.

BTW, depending on what options you've selected in the nView app - you may see additional drivers installed as secondary/tertiary devices in device manager. This is common for both Nvidia and ATI cards that have multiple video out and or virtual monitor options. Deleting them may further confuse your system if you don't also remove the apps that created them in the first place.

Let us know what you figure out!

[Moppie]

Mate!

You might have just solved the problem.
I certianly did turn on a few extras. Ill turn them off and see what happens.
It would certianly explain why it was effecting heavy resource users like PS.

My PC is a bit of mongrel, it started life as a 900mhz Duron, then the M/B and Chip were upgraded, but the HDD styated the same, as did the case. My old graphics card went with the old M/B and another was found amongst a pile of bits in the garage (mate used to build and sell PCs).
When all of this was set up and running it soon over heated in the new case, and shut down.
I did a little resurch and soon found that while he M/B, Chip, and HDD never came close to exceeding thier maximum operating temp, the graphics card probobly did. Its never really worked as it should ever since. Hence its been Fried, literaly.
Iv since installed a few fans, and it now sounds like a 747 doing a full power run ready for take off :D :D :D

[Rob612]

Get rid of that Nvidia thing and get yourself a nice Matrox, and you'll live happy with up to 3 monitors. Of course, it depends on which Matrox you'll get, the G450 handles only two, while the most recent P750 and - best of breed - the Parhelia can handle 3 of them.

I live really happy with a Parhelia and 3 17" LCD displays hooked on, this gives me a display resolution of 3840x1024 and its really handy. I do a lot of NLE with Premiere and being able to arrange everything on such a wide screen gives me the ability to have a larger timeline (on the center screen) and all the rest distributed on the sides.

If you do - as I suppose - a lot of Photoshopping, its really handy too... just place whatever you do not really need out of the center screen and keep it available on the sides.

Or you can use just the center screen for your main application and have other stuff running on the sides (I normally have my stock ticker/grapher on one side and my email program on the other, while working with wathever I need at the moment in the center).

I'll tell you, once you have tried a triple head you'll never get back to one or even two monitors.

Here is a pic of my setup (I know, the desk a real messy place but we are in the middle of a job and there is no time to keep it clean :) )

[Moppie]

Thats a very nice set up, mines certianly not that neat, or that tidy :)
Two monitors is more useful than I thought it would be, its fantastic for running multiple applications, and of course photoshop become so much easier to use when the screen is not cluttered by toolbars.

I just got a very nice promotion at work, Iv actualy been earning less when I was a student for the last 18mnths, but things are slowly changing. A new graphics card is on the list, and I have lots of good things about Matrox. But I also need something that will run games, even if its only just.


I disabled everything in Nvidia, except the dual monitor, and so far its running much better :)

[Sketcher]

I disabled everything in Nvidia, except the dual monitor, and so far its running much better Glad to hear it Moppie! And congrats on the gainful employment :).

Get rid of that Nvidia thing and get yourself a nice Matrox, and you'll live happy with up to 3 monitors. I’m “Pro” Parhelia (I own two; an AGP and a PCIe), but I think there’s a common misunderstanding in what it takes to do multiple monitors and the benefits each configuration provides.

There is a difference between an extended desktop and a ‘surround desktop’; which is also slightly different from a dual monitor desktop when considering certain aspects of a "surround" experience. Dual Monitor configs are fairly straight forward and both ATI and Nvidia have nice apps that maximize Dual Monitor real estate. There are also a few apps noted below that can further enhance the experience.

*The Parhelia is currently the best ‘consumer’ product for running Surround triple monitors from a single add-in card. There are more expensive single cards that’ll do quad+ and there are motherboards that have built-in dual monitor and surround triple monitor capability (more info noted below).

*Current Microsoft OS’s extend your desktop to multiple monitors natively as a function of the OS. You simply add additional PCI cards per capacity of your motherboard and extend your desktop to these monitors within the desktop configuration. Your monitor limitation literally is the capacity of how many cards you can add to your system.

*Regarding the new motherboards with ‘built-in’ multi-monitor capability. Mobo’s with an ATI Express 200 series chipset and similar have built-in dual-monitor and surround triple-monitor (with an add-in card) support. Nvidia has dual-SLI architecture that allows two video cards to either power the same monitor in concert for the ultimate in graphics power or opt to drive multiple monitors as a function of the multi-monitor output of each graphics card.

*The least expensive way to go “Multi” is to add additional cards. The best way to go Multi with a single card is to go with the Parhelia. But if you’re building a new system or even purchasing an OEM and have the option of choosing a motherboard that has a new ATI or Nvidia multi-monitor chipset built-in; your options become even tastier. You can potentially build a new computer and essentially spend less for a multi-monitor configuration than if you just purchase a Parhelia.

*There are also multi-monitor solutions for Laptop users, but I'll leave those interests to the google inclined.

Now, the difference between an “Extended Desktop” and a “Surround Desktop” is where the rubber meets the road; and in some cases gets a little confusing. An Extended Desktop is a function of the Operating System and it simply gives you more desktop space to spread out your apps. You can stretch your apps across multiple screens or neatly separate them. Your toolbar however resides on only one screen. The background wallpaper [regarding triple monitor setups] is confined to each screen because Microsoft Windows sees each monitor separately. So, by default you cannot stretch a background wallpaper across all three screens for that awesome panoramic view (caveat: 3rd party apps noted below) nor can you run true wide screen apps or perform real-time panoramic tasking. Surround Desktop configurations on the other hand trick the OS into thinking of the three displays as one big mutha so you can put a single panoramic background up for wallpaper, stretch toolbars across all monitors and run apps that seamlessly incorporate true panoramic views such as “Surround Gaming” or Panoramic viewing.

I mentioned the caveat of 3rd party apps. Some are free, others a relatively inexpensive; but either way there are apps such as UltraMon, MaxiVista, PowerStrip (a google search brings up quite a few more) that enable quite a bit of “Surround” functionality to an OS configured extended desktop. I’ve personally run UltraMon and would definitely buy it if I didn’t upgrade to hardware solutions for my triple monitor desktops. It might be worth noting that the next version of Windows (Longhorn) has multi-toolbar and better multiple monitor functionality built in... I think I read that and saw the screen shots somewhere.



I'll tell you, once you have tried a triple head you'll never get back to one or even two monitors.
You CAN do everything that Rob612 mentions in his post simply by adding additional cards as mentioned above, you don’t need the Parhelia to do it. It’s just that the Parhelia does it so much better. And Rob612’s absolutely correct in that once you’ve gotten used to triple-headed goodness you just aren’t satisfied with anything less.

Here’s a good link to multi-monitor resources; but google for a more extensive search of what’s out there because some of the references in this link are outdated:

http://www.realtimesoft.com/multimon/products.asp

**Not all is Roses** There can be numerous issues with each of the configurations that both detract and enhance a multiple monitor configuration. Using multiple cards can present unique driver installation issues (though I've successfully worked through approximately a dozen installs). With varying graphics card, drivers and monitor specs you can experience a variance in color representation between monitors (calibrating does not always resolve the variance). Even with hardware solutions such as the Parhelia, there can be color variance between identical monitors simply because of which chipset on the card is powering the different monitors. I mention this because this issue (if you're not able to calibrate it out) will drive you photo editing enthusiasts crazy.

BTW, Unreal Tournament Surround Gaming is enough reason for any moderate FPS enthusiast to sell body organs to achieve.

***CLIFF'S NOTES***

1. Adding additional graphics cards are a logical (and inexpensive) multi-monitor solution.

2. If I want basic “Surround” functionality I’d add in a software app such as UltraMon.

3. If I wanted real Surround real estate not just an extended desktop I’d get a Parhelia.

4. If I was building a system from scratch, I’d compare a multi-monitor Mobo vs a Parhelia solution and weigh the specs and performance between the two.

Feel free to correct me if I've misrepresented or incorrectly identified product or capability of any of the items mentioned.

Cheers!

[cmM]

im running a dual monitor setup with an Nvidia card, but haven't notice any signifficant performance changes... hmmm

[Moppie]

Fantastic information Sketcher.


I hope I don't sound to niave, but I gather from what your saying that I can simply add a second card to my set up, and then run one monitor off of each card?
Do they have to be the same spec card?
Or could I install say a Matrox card for my PS work on a primary monitor, and something more flashy and 3D for gaming on the other monitor?

[Rob612]

Ditto on what Sketcher said. Id rather prefer a single multihead board for several reasons, the main one being the fact that if you split among several boards you realli clog the bus a little bit tooo much. Plus, I like to have homogeneous stuff and usually you only have one AGP or PCI-X slot for video card.

If you use a single multihead solution - as per any other solution, perhaps - all the VGA traffic goes to the dedicated slot and the video hardware will take care of the rest. Sure, its a single point of failure, but if you really need it its quite more practical to have a spare single board instead of several, IMHO.

Moreover, if - as for most of us - you reach te point at which you became interested in NLE (Non Linear Editing) its much easier to plug in a single specialized board (I use a Matrox RTx.100 Xtreme) and have it working flawlessy with only one VGA card instead of several. NLE boards can be really tricky and keeping the system as much plain vanilla as possible helps a lot.

[Sketcher]

Moppie,

Not naive at all. Yes, you can add a second+ card to your setup if you're running Windows 2000 or some flavor of XP (It's doable in '98 but I don't remember the hoops to jump through). It's "usually" simple, but sometimes driver installation can make you regret having tried it in the first place.

They don't have to be the same brand or spec card (though it's almost always preferrable to use similar brand hardware if you're able to). Sometimes it's just more difficult to get drivers loaded properly if using different brand cards. Depending on the card, the driver installation might overwrite other drivers. It's a good practice when installing additional cards not to install the included software packages but to manually update the drivers on a particular card once windows recognizes the device (XP actually does a pretty good job at providing MS approved drivers "WHQL") so give the defaults a try before updating drivers.

I believe you'll want your gaming card to be the primary video card. Unless a game runs in "windowed" (mode allowing you to move it to a separate card) your game will default to the primary graphics card. Typically, you'd want your most intensive application running off your more powerful card -> from the primary video card slot on the motherboard. The additional PCI card slots won't operate as efficienctly as that primary graphics pipeline. You can move Photoshop to whichever monitor you'd like it to be on. I'd recommend running the main PS window on your primary monitor with the tools palettes or preview windows on the second; though I'm not a heavy PS user so we can count on our resident graphics artists for representation there.

Here's a link to a pic of an article on adding additional cards that I came across in a gaming forum.
Though motherboard and driver options are different between manufacturers, the article is basically the method to incorporate the madness.

http://www.pbase.com/sketcher/image/42324879

Good luck!

(as usual, if anyone's personal graphics experience lends to more clear thinking or a correction of the information I've presented; please feel free to
jump in!)

[Sketcher]

as for most of us - you reach te point at which you became interested in NLE (Non Linear Editing) Rob612, what kind of NLE do you do?

[Rob612]

Basically, I am doing NLE for my own pleasure. I like to bring a camcorder with me on every trip, but i really hate what the "vacation filming" usually looks like. So a long time ago i decided that it was time to do some editing. I like dthe results, and now when I have time, I try to edit some more serious stuff (i.e. our IPSC/IDPA matches, this is not a risk exempt filming :) ). I ended up with a semipro system because... its like digital cameras... once you're hooked well... there is nothing you can do about it. Just learn to live with it (and teach your wallet...)