Learning from a pro.

[Sam]

Hi all,

I was wondering what all you pro's though about having someone help you out as free labor? I have no real aspirations of taking photography on as a main source of income, however I would like to be able to take some nice portraits that were at a level I could start selling my stuff.

After reading many posts here I can see how tough it is to compete with all of the jokers out there that think they can buy a new digital SLR and jump right into photography...

So I started thinking about how willing a pro photographer would be to let me work with them in hopes of learning a few things. How would I approach someone and have them take me serious? I know a lot of events happen over the weekends and I am free at least one day most weekends. I wouldn't be looking for a salary, just the chance to learn something from a knowledgeable person. It's not that I don't think my time is worth anything but the way I see it I would be learning for free if I could find someone willing to take me on.

If you are a pro photographer I am very interested in your opinion. Even if you would just laugh at me for even asking I'd like to hear it.

Thanks in advance.

[DaveG]

Hi all,

I was wondering what all you pro's though about having someone help you out as free labor? I have no real aspirations of taking photography on as a main source of income, however I would like to be able to take some nice portraits that were at a level I could start selling my stuff.

After reading many posts here I can see how tough it is to compete with all of the jokers out there that think they can buy a new digital SLR and jump right into photography...

So I started thinking about how willing a pro photographer would be to let me work with them in hopes of learning a few things. How would I approach someone and have them take me serious? I know a lot of events happen over the weekends and I am free at least one day most weekends. I wouldn't be looking for a salary, just the chance to learn something from a knowledgeable person. It's not that I don't think my time is worth anything but the way I see it I would be learning for free if I could find someone willing to take me on.

If you are a pro photographer I am very interested in your opinion. Even if you would just laugh at me for even asking I'd like to hear it.

Thanks in advance.


Being an assistant to a pro is a very good idea, both for you and the pro. You see
what its like and get some real world experience, and the pro gets some help
dragging gear around or holding light stands.

Now a few things. If the pro suggests that you take some pictures, you should
refuse. On the surface that's very flattering but if they want you do some
overview shots of a wedding from the choir loft I assume that you can do that.
When you are up there you aren't learning anything. If you are below with the
photographer you should be asking yourself, "Why is she standing there?" "What
does she see from that angle?" and how does she interact with the clients. Sure
you'll be humping gear from here to there, but you'll be learning.

I also encourage assistants to immediately tell me if they notice a problem, but in
a discrete way that doesn't cost me credibility with the client. If a flash hasn't
popped then a quick word in my ear will be welcome. But questioning a
technique is unacceptable. I'll debate technique over a beer anytime. But I don't
need that in the field.

[IndyJeff]

solinger the first thing I would say is why do you want to work for free and do you want to be taken seriously? If so, then ask to be paid.
To me someone willing to work for free is giving me exactly what I am paying them.....nothing.
Personally I wouldn't really have any need for an assistant but, if someone wanted to tag along as an assistant and not get paid, I would say thanks but no thanks. Now if the guy said he knows he isn't all that experienced but would be willing to work for X amount a day or X amount an hour, I would take him more seriously.

Also you must remember, some pro's view todays assistant as tomorrows competition.

[tim]

Also you must remember, some pro's view todays assistant as tomorrows competition.

I'm suprised that every pro doesn't think that - they are tomorrows competition.

[PhotosGuy]

You seem to be talking about event photography so it might be worth a try.
Studio advertising work would be a different story in that he's not going to want to take the time to train you just to have you work on weekends. OTOH, working for pay 24/7 is the best way to learn that business.

[Moments]

If you really want to learn, then go talk to some local studios. You might find some will jump at free help, and they might not teach you a thing, but just use you. Be careful on what you do agree to do for how long and how much do they think they will be able to really teach you on the job.

I myself believe in training and teaching. I have had my assistants and photographers come along with me on atleast the first job without pay, since I don't know what they are capable of. As they learned or I saw that they know what they are doing, they got paid. I have two assistaints now that have been with me for over the last two years. I'm always training and teaching them still. Both of them came to me looking to get into the buisness, one was a 18 year old that wants to teach Photography and Graphic arts and shoot on the weekends, the other is an old assistant that I used to have at a commercial studio. He thinks weddings are a good way to ad to his studios income.
I have had some other assistants call me about working, I explained that I'm into teaching as well as having help on the job. I told them that I would let them do some shooting on the job, and we would critique thier shots together. As soon as they heard that they might shoot, the topic of the conversation went right to how much more money would they get if they shot and assisted. Not that I was trying to be cheap but thats not the reason I would let them shoot, it is to learn. They were not what I was looking for.

Regardless of if you are being paid or not, being an assistant is not only to help a photgrapher with his job, but it is also to learn. I don't believe that assistants are only to be thought of as mules and whipping boys/gals, but as future photgraphers hopfully at my studio. Hopefully if I train and teach them, and I treat them with respect, it will come back to me with the same level of respect and in the form of dedicated staff. Todays assistant should be tomorrows staff photgrapher and or friend.

I have managed to stay close friends with almost all of the photographers that I assisted or worked for or with over the past 20 years. We have not stabed each other in the back over jobs as the jobs are temporary, were as our buisness and personal relationships have continued for years.

[DaveG]

solinger the first thing I would say is why do you want to work for free and do you want to be taken seriously? If so, then ask to be paid.
To me someone willing to work for free is giving me exactly what I am paying them.....nothing.
Personally I wouldn't really have any need for an assistant but, if someone wanted to tag along as an assistant and not get paid, I would say thanks but no thanks. Now if the guy said he knows he isn't all that experienced but would be willing to work for X amount a day or X amount an hour, I would take him more seriously.

Also you must remember, some pro's view todays assistant as tomorrows competition.


Yes and some pros are morons.

First off there are no secrets to photography so don't worry about giving away any vital information that will come back and cripple your business. Then there's the "what goes around - comes around" principle. If I help someone today then that assistance usually comes back to help me one day. I spent a lot of time with a college photojournalist a few years ago. He went on to school and now has a full time job at a paper. Last week he got a call at the newsroom from a client looking to hire a photographer. He couldn't do it and suggested that they call me. That's happened any number of times.

I worked as a paid assistant to a local pro who treated his people like dirt. He'd tell you nothing and was rude doing it. Now he has a very difficult time finding an assistant and certainly anyone who has worked for him wouldn't help him even a little.

Be nice. Help people. Then they will be nice and will help you.

[O/confusion]

It's good to hear from someone like Pete who believes in helping people develop their craft. While I respect the right of all here to hold their own opinions on the best way to run their own businesses, I confess that I just don't understand the mindset of those who are worried about spawning future competition; I thought healthy competition is what the business world is all about. If you're confident enough in your own skills and abilities to generate a good product, and flexible enough to be able to adapt to changing client needs/tastes, surely you should have nothing to fear from those who may be coming in your footsteps--and if they turn out to be "better" than you, then so be it; maybe you can then learn a bit from them in turn!

I'm reminded of the great artist-run painting and sculpture studios of the Italian renaissance; thank G*d the guys that ran those weren't worried too much about the possibility of helping create competitors for limited commissions, or we in the West wouldn't have had nearly so great a legacy of wonderful art to learn from and appreciate.

During my time as a theatre professional I also did some part-time college-level teaching in a technical theatre program; I taught to the best of my ability the techniques needed to be able to do the work competently, but more than that I tried to give others the benefit of my experience in the business so that they might learn faster than I did, and possibly avoid some of the career pitfalls and personal setbacks that might lie in store for them. I'm always delighted whenever I see any of my former pupils doing well for themselves, and I like to think that if I have taught them well enough they will, in turn, come to share their expertise with those that follow after them in the best interests of helping to develop their profession.

If we honestly believe in our own technical competence and unique vision as creative individuals, but jealously hoard our knowledge and skills out of fear of being bested, then I personally think the future of the art/craft of photography is being robbed of much of its potential richness and diversity.
But, as I've already said, we each have the right to decide what is the best road to follow--this has not been intended as an attack on anyone else's position; it's just my perspective on the matter, for what it may be worth.

Respectfully,
Terry

[Jon, The Elder]

DAVE G - has got it down pretty well.
30 years ago I was apprenticed to the Cinema/Still photographer for an industrial Ad agency.

Dan treated the dual crafts as some sort of "Black Art" and never volunteered information or gave it willingly. He thought of me as a direct threat to his "career". Subject matter was special machine/machine tools. This I knew about. Dan had to ask me the technical side, which I gave/give freely. This high tension work relationship went on for about a year or so. 16mm film + medium format and 6x8 Sinar.
One Saturday morn at a meeting - Dan demanded we do an upcoming shoot "his way", or else he would quit !
Before you could say "Oh-Oh", the president turned to me and asked if I could shoot (I answered yes), he turned to Dan and said "Good bye, pick up your check on the way out".
That was the beginning of a long and interesting part of my life - and a great lesson for someone else.
Since then I have vowed to help anyone who asks. No one should have to endure that kind of "education" because of fear that they might someday be better than the teacher.

As Dave put it - "What goes around.......". For the most part this is true.

jon F.