Can't Get Definition...

[GDane123]

I've found that I like working with birds, but I'm putting this in the general category because it can always apply to other objects... So my problem is that I just can't seem to get nice definition. I have the SX10 so it's not GREAT, but it's not CRAP. When I say definition, I'm refering to the intricacies of their feathers.

Most of these, I was standing only 10 feet from the bird, full optical zoom and this was slightly cropped. These aren't mean to be anything except examples of what I'm missing in the feathers... What I'm getting at is, Why not at only 10 feet? Is my camera really that bad compared to DSLRs? OR what am I doing wrong?

Also, I find lighting is difficult withh this bird, because if I shoot too dark, its eyes disappear into the black head. If I shoot too light, it's lighter feathers are gone with the sun. Is this when filters come in handy?

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/GDane123/Crap%20For%20Forums/IMG_4217aa.jpg

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/GDane123/Birds/IMG_2335a.jpg

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/GDane123/Birds/IMG_2558a.jpg

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/GDane123/Birds/IMG_2575a.jpg

[DarenM]

looks to me, for one thing..that these were hand held maybe? Want definition, higher shutter speed to stop movement of bird, flash (reduced), and tripod mount so no shake

[chauncey]

You're trying to accomplish with a P&S what a lot of DSLR guys have trouble with? Think about it. ;)

[20droger]

In order to get the highest definition (your term) where the detail in each and every feather jumps out at you, you must:

Use the best lens you can get (your p&s may just not have good enough glass).

Use a camera with a large sensor (again, a p&s camera may just have too small a sensor).

Use manual focus and focus on the bird, ignoring the tree (trees and bushes almost always screw up autofocus).

Use a tripod, or if you can't, use a fast shutter speed (not always possible, and when possible sacrifices depth of field).

Practice, practice, and more practice, interspersed with lots and lots of cussing (award-winning National Geographic photographers have very creative vocabularies).

Not trying to put you down in any way, but there is a reason for dSLRs: large sensors, the ability to mount good glass, and the ability to finely focus.

[GDane123]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the opinions. I just want to be able to distinguish that line between blaming the camera and blaming myself. I can handle blaming the camera. ha And yes, they were taken by hand. Using flash more often is a good idea. (I should also look into these "fill flashes" I've heard mentioned elsewhere.. A tripod would be advantageous, except that I'm a wood romper and IDK how well one of those would go with me. If I want the best shots, I suppose I should at least try to find out...

[xoldboy]

it also looks like there is a lot of noise, or the ISO was set way to high.

[powerslave]

it also looks like there is a lot of noise, or the ISO was set way to high.
Which is again to be blamed on the camera.

[20droger]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the opinions. I just want to be able to distinguish that line between blaming the camera and blaming myself. I can handle blaming the camera. ha And yes, they were taken by hand. Using flash more often is a good idea. (I should also look into these "fill flashes" I've heard mentioned elsewhere.. A tripod would be advantageous, except that I'm a wood romper and IDK how well one of those would go with me. If I want the best shots, I suppose I should at least try to find out...
Get a nice sturdy monopod and use it as a walking stick as your go romping. That's what my wife does.

While not as good as a tripod (nothing beats a good tripod), a monopod beats the hell out of hand holding.

[Grimes]

I'm actually pretty impressed with those shots from a p&s. Either way, you might want to go to your local store and try out a dslr in person to know if it's right for you. Only disadvantage would be the extra weight and bulk you would need to carry around.

[PhotosGuy]

The 1st is at Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 1/30 second , so that's your problem.
The last one is:
# Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 1/500 second = 0.002 second
# Lens F-Number/F-Stop = 71/10 = F7.1
# ISO Speed Ratings = 80
...and you didn't get the focus point in the bird, ideally right on it's eye. Also, I find lighting is difficult withh this bird, because if I shoot too dark, its eyes disappear into the black head. If I shoot too light, it's lighter feathers are gone with the sun. Is this when filters come in handy? Filters won't help, but getting the exposure dead "on", shooting RAW & post processing would.

Also, if you can shoot on manual, give it a try. Why?
Post #47 (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5191658&postcount=47)
Click the "Thread: (thread title)" link at the top-right if you'd like more info on the subject.

[GDane123]

PhotosGuy, one problem is that I don't understand alot of terms and when I try reading, they only use more terms that I don't understand which confuses me further. I have no clue what metering is. I also don't understand numbers when people talk in "mm" or "f7.1" etc...

I know shutter speed is obviously how long the shutter stays open... Allowing more or less light?

Aperture is something that opens or closes according to... IDK Allowing more or less light? ha

And ISO is... IDK, but I know the higher the ISO, the fuzzier my pictures comes out so they say to shoot in the lowest ISO possible.

And when it comes to combining these for the right effect, hahaha I'm lost in an instant.

However, I did go to Tv Mode and took this today. I opted for the shutter speed to be 1/2000, thinking a faster shutter speed would be better. But when I go to properties, it says that it shot at 1/100. I'm guessing it defaulted due to "safety shift". I also messed with a dial that gives me the option of -2 to +2 and chose 0, although I don't know what it is, simply that it makes my pictures lighter or darker. In the end. I think this came out a tad better as far as detail so messing with Tv Mode is beneficial.

Also you mentioned the focus point on the bird? The bird is so small, my "focus box" takes up the whole bird so I wouldn't know how to give one part a focus point over another.

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/GDane123/Crap%20For%20Forums/IMG_4444aa.jpg

Edit: I just went outside again with the safety shift off. I was able to increase the shutter speed, but found I couldn't go any higher than 1/250 without it being too dark, even though it's a sunny day. I messed with that other option (exposure compensation?) of -2 to +2, but couldn't get it any brighter at +2. I didn't know what else to do. Here's an example, but what I DO like about it, which I think is a sign that I'm on the right track, is that I could actually crop it this far and still have better detail than the others, in my opinion... if it were only brighter.

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/GDane123/Crap%20For%20Forums/IMG_4454a.jpg

[PhotosGuy]

Aperture = more or less light AND it affects the depth of focus in your image.
I know the higher the ISO, the fuzzier my pictures comes out. OK, it looks to me like you need to go back to "Square 1" & start over:
Sticky: Ben's Newbie Guide to Digital SLR Photography (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=414088)

Then look through the links in this:
Canon Rebel XT Newbie needs help! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=513743)

[20droger]

PhotosGuy, one problem is that I don't understand alot of terms and when I try reading, they only use more terms that I don't understand which confuses me further. I have no clue what metering is. I also don't understand numbers when people talk in "mm" or "f7.1" etc...
It is important that you learm about "the numbers," as they are fundamental to an understanding of how to take pictures.

mm (millimeters) is easy. It's a part of the metric system. there are exactly 25.4mm to an inch, so a 50mm lens has a focal length of nearly 2 inches, and so forth.

You'll have to learn the metric system (at least in part) as virtually all of photography is metric (except tripod screws, but that's a different story). The whole world is metric, except the U.s (and two dinky countries nobody gives a damn about), so we are the odd ones out.

I know shutter speed is obviously how long the shutter stays open... Allowing more or less light?
Exactly that, and that time is measured in fractions of a second (or whole seconds for very long exposures). Remember your fractions? 1/2 is bigger than 1/4, so a shutter speed of 1/30s is longer than a shutter speed of 1/60s.

Aperture is something that opens or closes according to... IDK Allowing more or less light? ha
Again right. Light has to pass through the lens to reach the sensor. The aperture is the opening in the lens through which the light passes. The bigger the opening, the more light can pass through the lens during the time the shutter is open.

Apertures have whole values (called stops) of f/1.0, f/1.4, f/2.0, f/2.8, f/4.0, f/5.6, f/8.0, f/11, f/16, f/22, f/32, f/45, f/64, and f/91. Again, each value is a fraction (notice the "f/" part of each value). The "f" is the numerator of the fraction, and the numbers are the denominator of the fraction. Therefore, f/5.6 is a bigger aperture than f/8.

Each value in the above list passes one half the light of the value before it. This is because an aperture is an area while the f/number is a diameter. You must square the diameter to get the area. (Remember geometry? There was a reason they taught you that stuff.) The square root of 2 is approximately 1.4, so to double the apertures the whole f/number values increase by a factor of 1.4, not a factor of 2.

And ISO is... IDK, but I know the higher the ISO, the fuzzier my pictures comes out so they say to shoot in the lowest ISO possible.
ISO is the sensitivity of the sensor. A doubling of the ISO values doubles the sensitivity of the sensor to light. Therefore, by increasing the ISO, you could use a smaller aperture and/or a faster shutter shutter speed for the same exposure.

An example, you could take a properly exposed picture of a normal outdoor scene on a bight sunny day with an aperture of f/16 and a shutter speed of 1/100s when the ISO is 100. If you were to raise the ISO to 200, the same exposure could be had with an aperture of f/22 and a shutter speed of 1/100s, or an aperture of f/16 and a shutter speed of 1/200s. Conversely, if you were to lower the ISO to 50, the the same exposure could be had with an aperture of f/11 and a shutter speed of 1/100s, or an aperture of f/16 and a shutter speed of 1/50s.

And when it comes to combining these for the right effect, hahaha I'm lost in an instant.
Read the Ben's Newbie Guide as PhotosGuy suggested.

...I was able to increase the shutter speed, but found I couldn't go any higher than 1/250 without it being too dark, even though it's a sunny day. ....

Insufficient light is insufficient light. And trust me, it's not as bright as you think it is in the trees, even on a bright sunny day. Often it's downright dark.

There's another problem many newbies encounter with SLR cameras (and some more advanced p&s cameras) that have built-in flash units. If the subject is a little dark, the camera may decide to use the flash for fill (or for the primary light), even when the subject is too far away for the flash to have any effect. When the camera decides to do this, the fastest shutter speed will usually be limited to 1/200s or 1/250s, whichever is the X-sync speed of the camera. This "problem" is a function of how the camera's shutter operates.

[egordon99]

I have to say for a point-n-shoot camera you did VERY well! It's hard getting sharp bird shots with a 40D/100-400L and that's a $2000 "camera" :lol:

So once you get a handle on the terms that 20droger explained, you'll be in great shape!

[Wilt]

The 1st is at Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 1/30 second , so that's your problem.
The last one is:
# Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 1/500 second = 0.002 second
# Lens F-Number/F-Stop = 71/10 = F7.1
# ISO Speed Ratings = 80
...and you didn't get the focus point in the bird, ideally right on it's eye. Filters won't help, but getting the exposure dead "on", shooting RAW & post processing would.

Yup, 1/30 with 100mm lens would be too slow even for a 135 format camera! Add to that violation of the 1/FL for minimum handholding shutter speed, the fact that the sensor on your SX10 is a mere 6.5mm x 4.4mm, effectively you must multiply by the 'crop factor' to find the real minimum hand holding speed for your camera at 100mm -- which is 1/(FL * 5.8 ) or 1/580

The second issue is that the small aperture on your format will result in DIFFRACTION limitations. If you want less diffraction in the image, you need to go to f/5.6 on your lens (even an APS-C dSLR runs into the diffraction limitation at f/11 with its larger-than-SX10 sensor!)

You can up your ISO to get better shutter speed, but your small sensor will start exhibiting digital noise if ISO goes too high.