Be glad you don't shoot Nikon

[ScottE]

Apparently Nikon has encrypted the colour balance information for their new D2X and D2Hs cameras so that raw files cannot be converted by any program except their Capture program. Their position is that if you have Capture, Photoshop is not necessary unless you want to do something like remove a misplaced telephone pole.

Sometimes I am really glad I chose Canon over Nikon a few years ago when I had to give up on Konica.

http://photoshopnews.com/?p=226

Scott

[robertwgross]

Sometimes I am really glad I chose Canon over Nikon a few years ago when I had to give up on Konica.

You, too?

I used Konica from 1970 until 1997.

---Bob Gross---

[ScottE]

You, too?

I used Konica from 1970 until 1997.

---Bob Gross---

Not quite the same, but almost. My Konica era was from 1977 to 1997.

Scott

[scottbergerphoto]

Apparently Nikon has encrypted the colour balance information for their new D2X and D2Hs cameras so that raw files cannot be converted by any program except their Capture program. Their position is that if you have Capture, Photoshop is not necessary unless you want to do something like remove a misplaced telephone pole.

Sometimes I am really glad I chose Canon over Nikon a few years ago when I had to give up on Konica.

http://photoshopnews.com/?p=226

Scott
That is not completely accurate. According to the link you posted, you will be able to convert the file in ACR, but you won't be able to use the "As Shot" option for the White Balance. Sounds like Nikon is being a big weenie.

[UncleDoug]

More info....

From DPReview.com

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05041901nikon_encryptnef.asp

10 to 1 lawyers will benefit from this the most.... :(

[SantaFeBill]

That is not completely accurate. According to the link you posted, you will be able to convert the file in ACR, but you won't be able to use the "As Shot" option for the White Balance. Sounds like Nikon is being a big weenie.

You should see the reactions on the Nikonians forum! As Nikon users (not sure for how long), we are not happy campers.

The worry is that Nikon may encrypt more metadata, for more cameras, in a continuing attempt to lock people out of PS.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I can not fathom this move...

Why on Earth does Nikon feel competititve with Adobe?

Why on Earth would they want this dreamed up competition to cost them camera sales?

This is the dumbest move they have made in half a decade,. and they've made some doozies!

[Jesper]

That's stupid and won't do Nikon any good. :evil:

Just as stupid as Sony, who want to keep their stuff proprietary. Sony's RAW format, as used on the DSC-F828, is also encrypted, so that you are stuck with Sony's stupid RAW conversion software.

From Luminous Landscape's review (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sony828.shtml):

That's the good news. The bad news is that Sony has encrypted the image data in their RAW format for the F828. This will make it difficult to impossible (technically and/or legally) for third party software to decode their raw files without Sony's permission and cooperation. This means that terrific RAW programs like Adobe Camera RAW or Phase One's Capture One, nor any other third-party RAW conversion software will be available for the F828 unless Sony permits it.

What can Sony be thinking of? Throughout the history of technology this type of proprietary approach has proven to be counter-productive, and neither in the best interest of the consumer not the company that decides to be controlling and secretive. Two thumbs down on Sony for this anti-competative, anti-consumer and ultimately misguided attitude.

To make matters worse they have done one more thing to cripple using RAW mode on the F828. That is the camera's...

[gastroboy]

sony saw the light or woke up or whatever when they ditched their bloody "only our stupid ATRAC" format for their media players and by that time...apple trampled all over them...(sony...the inventor of the WALKMAN...you would have thought they had personal music players in the bag..) but anyway...yeah...silly move Nikon (are we alowed to say that out aloud here? the rest of the forum have it a N***n or something...

but yeah...silly Nikon...ooops I said it again.....

okay.,..just one more time....Nikon! I feel so naughty! :-)

[Longwatcher]

From what I read, when Adobe asked Sony for the right to unencrypt (read reverse engineer) Sony told them they could in writing. Nikon has either not responded or said no.

Oh and have you seen the stats for D50 and D70s, Looks like Nikon has decided what size consumer sensors will be for the next year at least (1.5x at 6.02MP), they are apparently concentrating on features. This at least is potentially a good direction from a long term perspective, but I am not sure it is a wise decision from a marketing point of view.
It is either a case of realizing they are starting to hit a limit in physics or they can't get a better sensor cheap enough from some one else to put in their cameras.
so Canon rules the high-end consumer with 20D and rebel XT.

Just my opinion on the last.

[kraterz]

Let's wait and see how Nikon responds. Let's not jump the boat and bash Nikon all over. Maybe they will come up with some firmware update which does away with encryption. Let's see...

[Belmondo]

Let's wait and see how Nikon responds. Let's not jump the boat and bash Nikon all over. Maybe they will come up with some firmware update which does away with encryption. Let's see...

I'm sure they have the capability. It remains to be seen how friendly they want to be towards users and third party software developers. If they sense an overwhelming backlash, chances are they'll make some kind of accommodation.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Why Wait?.. bash Noink now while the Bashing is good! :lol: :lol: :lol: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2hdzu/pics/banana.gif

It's great fun and sporting too ..... http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2hdzu/pics/scones.gif

Let us not forget,. this is a Canon forum and we like to have fun.. :cool: ;)

[Belmondo]

Just the term "nOINK" sort of says it all, doesn't it?

[scottbergerphoto]

This is really a collosally stupid move by Nikon. It's hard to imagine how a company that made the F5 could be so stupid.

[Belmondo]

This is really a collosally stupid move by Nikon. It's hard to imagine how a company that made the F5 could be so stupid.

All joking aside, it is really interesting to see how the various camera companies are trying to implement a long range business plan that responds to the mass migration to digital. One goal they most certainly have in the backs of their mind is how to create dissatisfaction with the cameras we presently own.

We are rapidly approaching the point where image quality of digital is equal to that of film. Once that happens, the only thing that's going to sell cameras will be bells and whistles. New features that might result from the creative integration of hardware and software would likely be one way to leapfrog over the competition, and to do that in a way that equates to dollars, it would have to be proprietary technology not available through third parties.

If that's the direction that Nikon is heading, and if they're even partially successful, you can count on Canon doing it, too.

[scottbergerphoto]

All joking aside, it is really interesting to see how the various camera companies are trying to implement a long range business plan that responds to the mass migration to digital. One goal they most certainly have in the backs of their mind is how to create dissatisfaction with the cameras we presently own.

We are rapidly approaching the point where image quality of digital is equal to that of film. Once that happens, the only thing that's going to sell cameras will be bells and whistles. New features that might result from the creative integration of hardware and software would likely be one way to leapfrog over the competition, and to do that in a way that equates to dollars, it would have to be proprietary technology not available through third parties.

If that's the direction that Nikon is heading, and if they're even partially successful, you can count on Canon doing it, too.
Or Canon will take advantage of Nikon's error by continuing to afford photographers the flexibility to choose their own software solution while continuing to produce the kinds of cameras that consumers and professionals want. Just look at Apple. If it wasn't for the IPOD, they'd be toast.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Flying toast in fact...

In my mind,. Canon has thus far made it clear that there interest in software is almost an afterthought.

DPP went a long way towards making there proprietary software a fully functional and useable alternative to aftermarket RAW apps,. but untill that point,. Canon owners literally HAD to go third party. (really,.. the Noink capture offerings blew away anything Canon had untill DPP levelled the playing feild significantly. See I admit when Noink beats Canon. Really I do!)

And Canon seemed happy to let the third party take the lead.

I'd be intersted to see if Canon switches gears on this ... I suppose there is certainly money to be made on software development... and Adobe is certainly reaping the rewards of the switch from Film to Digital as much as anyone else is... more so than most Camera/Film companies to be sure.

[Belmondo]

I agree with you both (Scott and CDS). My only point is that if Nikon can come up with some kind of 'Killer Ap' that makes their otherwise unremarkable cameras more desirable, and if that can somehow be turned into a new profit center, then it won't turn out to be such a dumb move.

Right now, we are all oriented to thinking that the digital camera market is purely hardware driven. That may not always be the case.

Need I remind you of what laser printers, Aldus Pagemaker, and Adobe Postscript did for the computer business.

[kraterz]

Well, there does seem to be a lot of hype from Adobe about this. If you examine the dcraw source code which handles this so called 'encryption', it doesn't look like encryption at all. It's a simple LUT and there are only two lines of code using this.

ci = xlat[0][serial & 0xff];
cj = xlat[1][fgetc(ifp)^fgetc(ifp)^fgetc(ifp)^fgetc(ifp)];

This is definitely not 'encryption' as adobe points out. If they really wanted to do encryption, they'd be using some real encryption like AES and not some pathetic two line algorithm which is really a LUT.

[scottbergerphoto]

Well, there does seem to be a lot of hype from Adobe about this. If you examine the dcraw source code which handles this so called 'encryption', it doesn't look like encryption at all. It's a simple LUT and there are only two lines of code using this.

ci = xlat[0][serial & 0xff];
cj = xlat[1][fgetc(ifp)^fgetc(ifp)^fgetc(ifp)^fgetc(ifp)];

This is definitely not 'encryption' as adobe points out. If they really wanted to do encryption, they'd be using some real encryption like AES and not some pathetic two line algorithm which is really a LUT.
LUT? if you put an S in front of it, then I might know what you were talking about! :lol:

[CyberDyneSystems]

I agree with you both (Scott and CDS). My only point is that if Nikon can come up with some kind of 'Killer Ap' that makes their otherwise unremarkable cameras more desirable, and if that can somehow be turned into a new profit center, then it won't turn out to be such a dumb move.



This is all true Belmondo.. but the question is...

What does Nikon think they have up there sleeves that can compete with Photoshop?

Adobe has been improving and evolving this product for decades,. it has been and continues to be the ultimate app for grahics work.

Does Nikon really think it can compete in this market?

Aren't they simply taking there eye off the ball even more?

[Belmondo]

This is all true Belmondo.. but the question is...

What does Nikon think they have up there sleeves that can compete with Photoshop?



Who knows?
The first 'killer-ap' was a simple spread sheet. Then, there was WYSIWYG, laser printers, desktop publishing, and so on. I didn't see any of those things coming, never felt a need for them, and didn't even recognize them as ground-breaking once they arrived. So I'm the last person that should be speculating on what nOINK has up their sleeve now. It might be nothing, or it might be earth-shattering.

My point was (and remains) that nOINK may be redefining their role in the overall scheme of digital imaging. It might be that they are planning to expand their position from purely a hardware manufacturer, and the first step they feel appropriate to take is to make certain features incompatible with products being offered by third parties. It may not even be directed at Adobe. It could be something completely different.

This was offered only as speculation, and does not suggest whether I think it's a good idea or not. It's just one possible explanation for what most of us perceive as a rather silly action on nOINK's part.

[BigRed450]

My feeling is that if at this point Noink wanted to compete in the software market they could have simply bought out or combined forces with someone like Phase One or RAWShooters. That way they would not have to force their faithful followers into using a subgrade app, but rather, their followers would choose to use their native app making any others 2nd rate or obselete.

The issue I see arising from different fora is the illegal aspects of cracking this very lame code. It has nothing to do with how hard or how easy it is to crack the code it is simply "against the law" to crack the code unless full permission is granted by Noink.. Which starts another discussion (another can of worms if you will) as to whether Noinks format copyright infringes on the Photographer's copyright.

[kraterz]

LUT? if you put an S in front of it, then I might know what you were talking about! :lol:
Emmm.... a LUT is a lookup table.

[foxbat]

If they really wanted to do encryption, they'd be using some real encryption like AES and not some pathetic two line algorithm which is really a LUT.Maybe the developers realised the pointlessness of any encryption or obfuscation solution where the key is embedded in an insecure device. The basic premise of any symmetric encryption algorithm is that the key is an integral part of the system. Take it away and the data is secure, embedding it there in the device is worthy of a huge Homer Simpson "DOH!"

[Longwatcher]

My understanding is that what Noink has done is legally encryption under DCMA. So far only Bibble has taken the DCMA challange against Noink. I think Noink is waiting for Adobe to bite before it reels them in.

Noink has offered their SDK, which apparently processes the RAW into a TIF before handing it off to other software. This is rightly unacceptable as developers want to covert the RAW bayer recorded data themselves to get better results. And "I" want to chose which one works best for me.

Noink says it is so they have control of the quality of the image until it is ready for other programs. Once that image hits the flash card or hard drive it is the photographers data, it is no longer Noink's as far as I am concerned and as far as what I can read from US copyright laws (conforming to international copyright laws).

.............http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci................
Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright.

In the case of works made for hire, the employer and not the employee is considered to be the author. Section 101 of the copyright law defines a "work made for hire" as:
(1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or
(2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as:
a contribution to a collective work
a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work
......snipped rest........

I purchased my camera to capture pictures. Once they are in fixed form (written to card or disk) they are MINE, not Noink's or Canon's, Mine, mine, mine, all mine (okay I am getting a bit zealous here).

I do not want to be forced to process MY images in a manner DICTATED to me by the camera company. Until it gets to the card or drive, they can do what ever magic they want to and hold in secret. No issue with that, but once it is written down, MINE.

Let us hope Canon does not get that stupid.
To date Canon has only encrypted/encoded (one of those two) non-image content parameters (like distance to focal point) and so far apparently they have provided even that data to anyone that asked. even though I have Canon vs. Noink, I am worried about this issue for two reasons.
1. Competition is good and Noink is shooting themselves in the head (not just the foot) right now.
2. Canon might get stupid and think this is a great concept.

Just my ranting opinion,