Photographers - watch this video!

[constrict]

This pretty much applies to all artists...

Harlan Ellison -- Pay the Writer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

[noxcuses1]

Exactly!

[-MasterChief-]

good watch, thanks for sharing!

[charger912]

Oh, thanks so much for sharing that! It was hilarious but so true at the same time.

[harroz]

everyone should watch that.

[Alleh]

Hmm your pretty late on this one but yes it is a good video.

[constrict]

Hmm your pretty late on this one but yes it is a good video.

yeah yeah...I'm so unoriginal.

[monty28428]

Sounds like he needs some cheese with that wine.

I'm a big fan of Ellison - but he just has not come up with anything worth while in a long time.. seems the only thing he's good at now is suing people.

[constrict]

Sounds like he needs some cheese with that wine.

how original...and don't you mean 'whine'?

[monty28428]

Hey if you want to applaud the rantings of a washed up has been -- Party on!

[constrict]

Hey if you want to applaud the rantings of a washed up has been -- Party on!

the relevance of him as a writer makes no difference...if you fail to get the point and see the comedic value then you're probably one of the people he's talking about.

[monty28428]

Do you feel better now :-)

I get the point -- To bad you used a terrible messenger to make it.

[constrict]

I'm a big fan of Ellison


To bad you used a terrible messenger to make it.

:rolleyes:

[monty28428]

Did you miss something... of course you did :rolleyes:

[constrict]

Did you miss something... of course you did :rolleyes:

I believe you did, and once again this thread is essentially about Ellison's statement not his relevance as a writer or what he does on his spare time.

Go troll some other thread.

[monty28428]

LOL -- OK - here you go!

GREAT THREAD! NEEDED TO BE SAID!


later.

[snakekid]

I think he is the *******. He could have nicely stated his point without the condescending tone

[constrict]

no sense of humor here I guess. goodnight!

[Moppie]

It is missing some context for it to be funny.
He just comes accross as a greedy prick in that clip with out it.

[EagleEye5]

That dud is so freakin awsome...I don't take a piss without getting paid for it MF...

[EagleEye5]

I think he is the *******. He could have nicely stated his point without the condescending tone


Dude. He is making a major POINT!!! Are you an amatuer or a professional?!
Thats a retorical question!

[snakekid]

Context would have been great.
Think about watching a kid shoot a dog. Then think about Old Yeller the movie.
You could make points without belittling people too.

[mandozilla]

Dude. He is making a major POINT!!! Are you an amatuer or a professional?!
Thats a retorical question!

I don't think that the difference between amateur and professional is if you get payd when you go for a pi*s or not...

A professional should be able to make the difference between a job and PR... If you don't give a rat a** about PR is because you're beyond humanity (I mean a god of a sort) or you're average on what you're doing

I'm a reasonable recognised pro in my area (which it's not photography) and I enjoy participating in conferences or articles because that allows me to share my point of view with others and be even more audacious with some of them...

And NO I don't get payed for those and I wouldn't ever ask to get payed as I think it's as well my duty to share some experience.

How many of the pros here consider that they should be payed when answering a question about photography in this forum? Why is that different than an interview?

[Wild Style]

Context would have been great.
Think about watching a kid shoot a dog. Then think about Old Yeller the movie.
You could make points without belittling people too. Anyone who missed the point has either A. never worked a day in his or her life or B. has absolutely no head for business. You work, you should get paid for your work, period. He also put know-nothing hacks on notice. Stop effing up fields that you have no love for or knowledge of. I posted a quote from a photographer named Dwight Mitchell awhile back, which echoes the sentiment in this video. His quote was "I love and hate digital, I hate digital because it has allowed amateurs to pretend to be photographers". He is not going against those who have a love and passion for photography and who take the time to learn the technical, artistic and business aspects of this field; all the while conducting themselves in a professional manner. He is talking about those who get a camera, know nothing about the field, have no love for it, and who want to make a quick and easy buck. You know, the ones who under value their work and in turn they end up devaluing the services of true professionals. This guy is saying the exact same thing but geared toward writers. I told this story before but the same thing happened in the I.T. field. Everyone and their grandmother jumped into those MCSE courses, which last for six months. Then they flooded the field, and most of them had no clue what it was they were doing. It really hurt that field in the long run. For those of us who didn’t jump on the bandwagon but instead had a genuine love for the field, we saw salaries and jobs go down the tubes. The same can be said for the real estate market. As the youngsters say, people need to learn to stay in THEIR lane.

On a side not, some people on this forum are truly nasty. I don't come here that often for that very reason. Some of you here are absolutely amazing artist and you bring tremendous talent to this thing of ours. However some of you really make it hard for others to want to come and participate in this forum given the absolute low level of manners that are on display at times. Don't mean to offend anyone here and I do not mean to disrespect the creators and maintainers of this forum. A lot of time and effort has gone into this place and I have learned a bunch from this forum.

Peace

[bobinatcat]

hahaha "you go the store and buy it m.....f....."

[constrict]

How many of the pros here consider that they should be payed when answering a question about photography in this forum? Why is that different than an interview?

Wow, did you even listen to anything he said?

He may or may not have done the interview for FREE which doesn't matter anyways. His point was that Warner Bros. wanted to USE his interview on a DVD they were to be selling for profit without compensating him at all.

And his last statement is also familiar to me after having some photos in magazines and they don't even send me a freakin' copy of it so I've had to buy it myself. Poor business practice.

[alabama1980]

It's kind of scary that people can keep a straight face while regarding those that want fair compensation for their work as arrogant and demanding.

Obviously the company thought that the addition of his interview would serve to enhance their project in some way or they would have never called in the first place.

It's the same principle as someone calling a photographer up after seeing a picture on their website: "I like your picture. I want to use it in my publication...now I'm not going to pay you to use it, but it will give you exposure. Whaddya say?" To someone like me it would sound good because I need exposure, but I would never do it on principle. Nor would (should) and established pro that is worth his salt. Get enough people doing that and the market cheapens to the point that no one makes any money.

It's up to us to get fair compensation for our work. The other guy doesn't give a crap if your bills are paid or not.

I do agree that the guy in the vid had an arrogant attitude, but this isn't about his demeanor. It's about the principle of a situation.

[RDKirk]

He may or may not have done the interview for FREE which doesn't matter anyways. His point was that Warner Bros. wanted to USE his interview on a DVD they were to be selling for profit without compensating him at all.

Yes. The point is that they came to him--he didn't go to them. Why? Because of his name, because of who he was, because of his fame in the science fiction business. His name enhanced the salability of their product. Why didn't they interview the make-up artist? Why not the script boy? Because they didn't have the name, and the name meant more money for the company.

They were going to make a bigger profit using his name and talent. The cameraman was getting paid, the grip was getting paid, the gaffer was getting paid, even the kid running coffee was getting paid. But they thought he--who was already a top-name, recognized professional--should have been content with "exposure."

How did they get that idea? Because they'd gotten free work from so many wannabees just for "exposure" that they thought even a seasoned professional would be willing to do free work for "exposure."

[Patrick]

The point me makes is very clear. He seems like a total dick, but he's absolutely correct and his attitude doesn't make his argument any less valid.

It really pisses me off too when people want something for nothing. It's usually the ones who have more than enough to pay too.

[constrict]

The point me makes is very clear. He seems like a total dick, but he's absolutely correct and his attitude doesn't make his argument any less valid.

Does anyone here have a sense of humor? he's obviously frustrated but also trying to be funny at the same time. Definitely made me laugh while agreeing with his points.

[Patrick]

Someone being a dick as part of comedy can be funny. If you come across as a dick for real, even as shtick, it's not funny. From other things I've seen and read about him I'd lay dollars to doughnuts that he's a dick. Perhaps he's not. If I ever meet him I'd reevaluate me opinion. And yes, I do have a sense of humor, quite a good one at that.

Back to the point. He is absolutely correct.

[Permagrin]

I dunno. He didn't come across as funny. Only frustrated. Though I didn't find him offensive either. He makes some very valid points as well.

I must have missed this when it made it's rounds before. Overall it was an interesting watch. And I think it correctly represents many things in the current system.

I see many (photographers included) people being undercut by amateurs. People with degrees and/or who've been in their jobs and know what they are doing....are fired for someone who doesn't...but who can be paid less (or in cases like this...for free).

yeah...seems like a reasonable gripe.

[johnstoy]

Right to the point... No BS'ing about it... I used to hear talk like that more often in NYC... Maybe that's why it's the $capital$ center of this hemesphere... Here, where I live in the country now, we barter more... But it's still the same thing... Don't give your work away.

[mandozilla]

Wow, did you even listen to anything he said?

He may or may not have done the interview for FREE which doesn't matter anyways. His point was that Warner Bros. wanted to USE his interview on a DVD they were to be selling for profit without compensating him at all.



I did listen ... Did you? How do you think pros here intend to use the information they get from other pros? strictly for non profit ?

IMO there is a line beyond which you can (should?) share information with other professionals that INTEND to use that information you give for free to earn more money ... and ther is nothing wrong about that as you most probably have learned in the same way.

someone else pointed out that the context is missing and maybe he was right to ask for money ... but establishing the "I don't breed if I don't get payed because I'm a pro" as a dogma is just sooo wrong IMO

[Moppie]

There is a fine line between being greedy and being a responsible part of a comunitity.

Asking to be paid for every little thing you do steps over the wrong side of that line.

[Permagrin]

I think everyone has to establish a line. His is stricter than some.

For me, when I offer help for free, it's free. If I give someone an action I made, it's theirs. But it's not theirs to re-distribute or give to someone else.
My line is that if I give it to you it's free, if I decide not to, it's not free. Then you are free to go elsewhere or pay.

What I don't understand is why people get upset about the lines other people determine for themselves. Or the manner in which they determine it. It's his life...he can stand or fall by his decisions, just like I will with my life. Since his comments (or the manner of his comments) has no impact on any of us here, I'm just puzzled at the acrimony being bandied about.

I can see if it has impact on ones personal life (like being fired for the rookie who knows nothing but will work for less) but when it's just a look at how shady business practices have become, pretty much across the board, it's more saddening than maddening.

[BobbyM]

nice clip. regardless of your personal opinion of the man himself, he did make a valid point, and he has every right to be upset about the issue. there are many people who expect services for free jsut because your not behing a store front.

Reminds me of a person who asked me a few months ago. "hey that's a nice camera, you should take some photos of my son playing hockey, and I'll give you my email address so you can send me the pictureS.: Needless to say, I told her that I had to leave..

[MJPhotos24]

So nobody else here gets paid to take a piss?


I don't do anything for free, period * (see below) - that's the point he's making and a good one. When you have work to do you don't waste your time giving it away - if it's good enough to be used, it's good enough for someone to pay to use it. That goes for anything, be it labor, song, interview, photo, story, etc. Understand those "guests" on late night TV, or news channels, or panels, and getting interviewed are being PAID to do it - they're not there free for publicity all the time. Even if the show is not paying them to be on someone is 99% of the time.

* There's a big difference between free and volunteer work for charity, there's lots of great charities and such you can donate time and such to. There's a few threads on that topic already but just wanted to say that I would do - but not work where someone else is making money off it.

[JeremyJ]

Does anyone here have a sense of humor? he's obviously frustrated but also trying to be funny at the same time. Definitely made me laugh while agreeing with his points.
I will second the laughing out loud sentiment. This guy had me rolling at his delivery. And I did not need context for the principled, and dead-on, point he was making in his rant. Thanks for the link OP.

[Zoso23]

good post.

that is a quality rant.

[Moppie]

I don't do anything for free, period * (see below)


To think of reward in monetry terms only is IMO short sighted and restictive.
It doesn't move beyond the thinking of a base level working earning an hourly wage.

You have to look beyond dollars, and see other things in the world that can more valuable.
Things like good will, knowledge and recognition can often add more value to you, or your business that simply earning money.

For example I might exchange knowledge with someone from a different industry for no monetry reward. Instead they share with me some knowledge of thier industry.
I know now something extra that I can use to help generate more business by benifiting existing or potential customers.
This in term generates more revenue. Potentialy hundreds of times more than if I had just charged for that knowledge and not learned anything in return.

[FlyingPhotog]

As someone who's been self-employed since around 1986, and also as a person working in an industry (Television Production) that is currently attempting to extract the maximum amount of blood from the collective stone as possible, I see a lot of validity in the rant.

I see Moppie's point about doing good things for the right reasons, but this has to be tempered with an eye toward the "camel's nose under the tent" syndrom.

More and more, today's good deed is tomorrows expectation. You don't have to be quite as militant as the OPs subject perhaps but fair is fair. If there's a buck to be made (so long as it's not illegal or imoral,) I see nothing wrong with making it.

[Electric Monk]

To think of reward in monetry terms only is IMO short sighted and restictive.
It doesn't move beyond the thinking of a base level working earning an hourly wage.

You have to look beyond dollars, and see other things in the world that can more valuable.
Things like good will, knowledge and recognition can often add more value to you, or your business that simply earning money.

For example I might exchange knowledge with someone from a different industry for no monetry reward. Instead they share with me some knowledge of thier industry.
I know now something extra that I can use to help generate more business by benifiting existing or potential customers.
This in term generates more revenue. Potentialy hundreds of times more than if I had just charged for that knowledge and not learned anything in return.

The thing is, using his example, is that someone wanted to use something he did for free to make money, and not give him a cent for it. If I were to turn around and start selling prints from your photos and not giving you a cent, wouldn't that bother you? He even states that he's at a point where he doesn't feel he needs the extra exposure or contact (judging by his career right now that was probably a mistake ;) ).

I agree that learning something in exchange for teaching can definitely help improve the services I offer, but its when I undercut the guy teaching me it to me, that crosses the line.

I'm a web developer & server admin by trade, and I constantly lose out on quotes by people who undercut in price, and then I see the work later and it flat out sucks, at which point I'm offered the contract to fix it, usually whatever's left of the budget and less then half of what I should have made. And I turn them down, because its not worth my time. I had a client who wanted me to teach them to code because they didn't want to pay me for updates anymore. Oh, and they weren't going to spend a cent for me to teach them. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind do that?

[Moppie]

Of course you always have to be aware of people wanting to take advantage of you, but that is simply a part of dealing with people.
Some are greedy and some arn't, learn how to tell who the greedy ones and treat them accordingly.

But learn to look beyond the dollars when working out your reward for doing something.
Ask yourself if there is potential in this to make a greater reward later on.

Did doing the interview really cost him anything?
Did he potentially lose out by not being paid for it?
Or could have potentially gained some good will with the studio and producer and other people assocaited with the project, and could it also have worked to promote his name and get him further recognition with his fan base?
Especially the Babylon 5 fan base, who were very vocal and supportive group.


As for people who have no skills or experiance getting work, if they are no good they simply don't survive and go onto try other things.
Those who do survive are usually doing something different and doing it because they do have skills or knowledge, no one else has, or they working to different business model.

I recently made a lot of money doing a commerical photoshoot of some furniture.
I charged about 1/3 what the compitition would have charged, yet I would have made as much, if not more profit out of it.
The previous photog used to get all the furniture carted to his studio in a truck, then would have to hire labour to move it around and set it up, take the photos on a high end medium format camera, and then send it all back again by truck. That means huge over heads and expenses to take some really basic photos for use in a low volume print and web promotion for products being sold at a low margin.
The client did not need high end staged photos, with ultra high levels of detail.

So I was able to set up in the clients warehouse with out disrupting thier operation, shoot the photos, process them, and deliver them in about 6 hours worth of work.

I delivered exactly what the customer needed, and charged accordingly. The competition would have over delivered, excesivly in this case, and charged also accordingly.
I maybe taking business from him, but all he has to do to compete is change his business model. Whining about it won't help :cool:

[Electric Monk]

Of course you always have to be aware of people wanting to take advantage of you, but that is simply a part of dealing with people.
Some are greedy and some arn't, learn how to tell who the greedy ones and treat them accordingly.

But learn to look beyond the dollars when working out your reward for doing something.
Ask yourself if there is potential in this to make a greater reward later on.

Did doing the interview really cost him anything?
Did he potentially lose out by not being paid for it?
Or could have potentially gained some good will with the studio and producer and other people assocaited with the project, and could it also have worked to promote his name and get him further recognition with his fan base?
Especially the Babylon 5 fan base, who were very vocal and supportive group.


As for people who have no skills or experiance getting work, if they are no good they simply don't survive and go onto try other things.
Those who do survive are usually doing something different and doing it because they do have skills or knowledge, no one else has, or they working to different business model.

I recently made a lot of money doing a commerical photoshoot of some furniture.
I charged about 1/3 what the compitition would have charged, yet I would have made as much, if not more profit out of it.
The previous photog used to get all the furniture carted to his studio in a truck, then would have to hire labour to move it around and set it up, take the photos on a high end medium format camera, and then send it all back again by truck. That means huge over heads and expenses to take some really basic photos for use in a low volume print and web promotion for products being sold at a low margin.
The client did not need high end staged photos, with ultra high levels of detail.

So I was able to set up in the clients warehouse with out disrupting thier operation, shoot the photos, process them, and deliver them in about 6 hours worth of work.

I delivered exactly what the customer needed, and charged accordingly. The competition would have over delivered, excesivly in this case, and charged also accordingly.
I maybe taking business from him, but all he has to do to compete is change his business model. Whining about it won't help :cool:

And your absolutely right, but remember in this case your working smarter, not harder, and because of that it makes sense for you to charge less. The complaint here is not someone working under a different model and thus able to charge less, but charging very little or nothing, which tends to lower the bar for everyone sharing that field.

Consider this: I know your method, how you work. Next time they need photos, I approach your client, explain how I work (your method), and tell them I'm going to charge a half to a third of what you do just for the exposure. Are you ok with that? Thats the point he's trying to make.

As for his interview, I've already said that he determined it wasn't worth it to him to provide the interview to Warner. I have to agree with him too, because while the interviews and extras for DVDs are interesting, I've never looked up anyone just because of the making of featurettes. In that case, I'd want some kind of compensation too, especially if they're making money off of it. You can't tell me Warner can't afford to pay for that interview.

[MJPhotos24]

When running a business there's a bottom line and you have to stick to it. You have to look at the monetary value of what you're doing in the short and long run, and see if it is worth it. I take a LOT of risks in my business, usually at least breaking even and often coming out on top obviously or it wouldn't be worth it. I'm not sure what you mean by "reward" - if you're talking about for a good cause or something I've already said that part. If you're talking about learning something, or gaining experience then why can't you get paid to be an assistant and learn at the same time? People always assume they have to work for free just to get in with someone, but more often than not you can find the same work getting paid, even if it is not much. That's a personal choice but for me, in my business where I am at right now, I'm not doing nothing for free. If I wanted to branch out and add on a different division (say senior portraits) then I'd probably learn on my own first and foremost, and hire a professional model to learn from more so than a photographer - the model has the best secrets from all the photogs if you think about it, an experienced one at least.

Did doing the interview really cost him anything?
Time is money! When someone does a long interview they prepare for it, it's not like the evening news when it's quick after an event of a couple questions. Since none of us here know what type of interview it is, since he just said it's long and interesting, it's hard to determine. However, my guess is this was a sit down preparation interview and his time is worth being paid for. To bring it over to photography that's like someone saying to a photographer "did taking a digital photograph really cost you anything?" Yes, it did cost you something.

Did he potentially lose out by not being paid for it?
Of course he does. Warner Bros wants an interview for free so he allows it, now HBO wants one, and CBS, and NBC, and so on and so on. Just like photography you get the reputation of doing work for free it's going to snow ball into something worse. The point of his career he is at there is no possible reason to do something free. Warner Bros wants to make money off his interview, why in the world should he not be paid for something that is making someone else money?

Or could have potentially gained some good will with the studio and producer and other people assocaited with the project, and could it also have worked to promote his name and get him further recognition with his fan base?
He's WAY past the stage of recognition as a pay off. Good will gets you nothing, you work for a multi-billion dollar company for free once they are going to want it free every single time. His name is one of the most well known around already so personally I think this argument is null. He even addresses it in this video when he says something about the recognition along the lines of "I like how that guy gave that interview, I wonder if he wrote a book". That just does not happen.

As for your last comment about the job you did - that's pretty much it. You don't worry about the competition, you of course keep an eye out for anything they're doing so you can adjust accordingly, but can't over worry about them. I think a lot of photographers, especially new ones, worry more about there competition than they do there own business. I remember starting out I did that and my business didn't grow until I went past what the other guy was doing and did what I wanted. It's pointless to worry about them, just out work them.

[Moppie]

Consider this: I know your method, how you work. Next time they need photos, I approach your client, explain how I work (your method), and tell them I'm going to charge a half to a third of what you do just for the exposure. Are you ok with that? Thats the point he's trying to make.



Then you would have done a better sales job than me, and I would lose a client for one job.
But you can't keep selling at a loss or you will never be around long to actaully become a competitor :cool:


When running a business there's a bottom line and you have to stick to it. You have to look at the monetary value of what you're doing in the short and long run, and see if it is worth it. I take a LOT of risks in my business, usually at least breaking even and often coming out on top obviously or it wouldn't be worth it. I'm not sure what you mean by "reward"

Your still thinking about everything in dollars right away. "GIVE ME MONEY NOW!"
It works in the short term, but does not work as a long term stratergy.
Look at reward as being not only money, but also customer satisfaction, good will in the comunitity and industry, recognition, knowledge, feeling of personal achivement.

For example a happy customer will come back.
That might mean only making a 50% margin rather than a 100% margin on the first sale. Sure you make less of that sale, but the customer is happy with the price and the service so they come back again and and again. Over the long term you make far more charging less multiple times, than you do charing lots once.

Good will in the comunitity/industry will drive customers to you, through a good reputation and word of mouth. You might lose out on a couple of jobs starting that, but ultimatly you will win through increased business.

[MJPhotos24]

Your still thinking about everything in dollars right away. "GIVE ME MONEY NOW!"
It works in the short term, but does not work as a long term stratergy.
Look at reward as being not only money, but also customer satisfaction, good will in the comunitity and industry, recognition, knowledge, feeling of personal achivement.

No, I'm actually not and said look at the long run - I'm looking at it as I'm either making a living doing it or I'm not. I don't have time and energy to shoot for free at this point in my career, in fact when I did it earlier in my career it got me absolutely NOTHING in return but more people asking for freebies. My entire business is built off long term investment - I may shoot 10 events in a week and not make a dime until December. It's how my business is in the field I do it so it's all long term.

How can there be customer satisfaction if they are not a customer? It's impossible, if they're not paying me they are not a customer. If you go to a restaurant and ask for a free meal because it will satisfy you they'll laugh and throw you out. Same goes with almost every other business I can think of, and I only say "almost" because maybe there is one out there that won't - a free clinic or something...but then again, the tax payers are paying for that and those working there are getting "charity work" write offs.

Good will in the community and industry are two different things IMPO. The community I would view that as charity work, which I've already addressed. In the industry is why I'm on this board and take time to respond, working for free is not good will to the industry, in fact it hurts it. To be good to the industry you help other photogs that deserve to be helped, you work with good people, you do your job the best you can and go the extra mile for clients. That's good will to the industry.

Recognition, my work alone gives me that and I don't want to be recognized as a freebie photographer, EVER! Why can't work I do for pay give me recognition? There's two other photogs in this area and I hear the same thing every time about them - one I always hear how good he is first, and then they mention how expensive he is. The other I always hear how cheap she is first, and then how it was OK for the price. Personally I'd rather be that middle guy where work speaks first and the price is second but reasonable - it's why my prices are what they are, not the cheapest and not the most expensive.

As for personal achievement, I really think I can get a lot more of that landing a job than giving it away. I felt GREAT last year when I landed official photographer for one of the biggest amateur baseball events in the country and even better when they raised there pay for me just so I'd come do it (they were allocated x-amount, I said it's probably not enough since I'd have to fly, hotel, car, etc. so they raised it just to get me there). THAT IS ACHIEVEMENT! Tell you what, when they got a hold of me recently asking if I'd be available again it was even better. Also, I think never having lost a client in 10 years is also more of a personal achievement for my career.


For example a happy customer will come back.
That might mean only making a 50% margin rather than a 100% margin on the first sale. Sure you make less of that sale, but the customer is happy with the price and the service so they come back again and and again. Over the long term you make far more charging less multiple times, than you do charing lots once.

I'm a bit confused, when did we talk about pricing? I'm not questioning anyones pricing structure, I'm questioning why anyone would do anything for free when they are worth getting paid for it. Like I said above my prices are the middle of the road for this area - not too high and not too low. However, let's say you have two customers - identical in every aspect. One asks you for a discount, the other does not. You give the discount to one but not the other, how is that fair? You may have landed one for a lifetime but lost another when they find out.

Good will in the comunitity/industry will drive customers to you, through a good reputation and word of mouth. You might lose out on a couple of jobs starting that, but ultimatly you will win through increased business.

I'll use a local guy who does a lot of weddings/senior photos as an example for this area as I do very little close to home. The guy is a great photog, his stuff is brilliant, he's booked MONTHS ahead - talking 8-9 months at least. He's also a great guy, great with people. He's recognized in the community for how he runs his business. Word of mouth for how he runs things and how good of a shooter he is is what did that, not freebies. He has a certain discount program (recommend a friend) and that's it. It's a sound business plan that works great while he's always making money with everything he does.

I honestly don't get why people think photography is different than any other business. Why do so many people use the local car shop, or eat at the local restaurant, or whatever other business you want to put in there. It's all the same, it's what they get for the price and satisfaction. Trading free work for recognition is a myth IMPO. My favorite example is the local phone book where the cover was my image that the team gave to them for free when they were not supposed to. EVERY house in 4 counties got this thing delivered to there door. The image was huge, crisp, clear, colors popped, etc. There was also a huge notice in the front pages of who took it. How many phone calls did I get off it - zero. How many people I know got a hold of me saying "hey saw your image on the phone book" - zero. How much business did I get from it - zero. It did nothing for me, and to me only a newb or ego maniac would get satisfaction from it. Nobody is checking the credits and that's where Harlan is exactly right.

[burnxkr]

Great message but the messenger is a dick. The world needs to get back to a fair days wage for a fair days work. Too much greed in the world and its turning everything sour.

Musicians, actors, photographers and the like have forgotten why they love their art.

[MJPhotos24]

Great message but the messenger is a dick. The world needs to get back to a fair days wage for a fair days work. Too much greed in the world and its turning everything sour.

Musicians, actors, photographers and the like have forgotten why they love their art.
Isn't his argument he should get paid for his work, thus making it a fair days pay for a fair days work? The greed he's arguing against is Warner Bros trying to make money off him by asking for work for free - is that what you mean? Little confusing when you read your response with the last sentence in there.

I don't think in the majority musicians, actors, photographers, etc. have forgotten why they love their art - it's just that they have to protect there rights and get paid to do it. If musicians, actors, photographers, don't get paid to do it then they won't be doing it very long, it's as simple as that. In terms of musicians, actors (and athletes) you NEVER know when you go from being the top dog to a nobody and the checks stop coming in. Some are smart and plan for that day, others live outside there means in the long run and suffer. That's when you see them on VH1 in some really bad reality show.

[EldoFreeride]

I found the video to be hilarious and very true at the same time.
Whats even more funny is the lack of humor people have sometimes :rolleyes:

[ishmelly]

amen!