What to do when a model converts your image?

[inthedeck]

Just curious as to what you do, when a model takes an image that you sent her, converts it to black and white without your permission, and posts it on her page?

In my release, it states that the model is not allowed to manipulate images that I've sent them. So, what's your take on it? Especially when the B&W lacks contrast. :lol:

[RDKirk]

Send her a better BW copy.

[inthedeck]

While I don't mind doing that, it's just that when people use their own 'copy' of PS, and the image still contains my copyright, that's a licensing problem...that I'd rather not have the headache of dealing with, later on, down the road.

Nonetheless, I'll work one up for her, and send it along....as she's removed the file she edited. ;)

[cdifoto]

Just report her page to whoever hosts it without telling her. They'll yank the image and send her a copyright warning.

[inthedeck]

Thanks cdi. She's removed it...so, we're all good. ;)

[towersinthesky]

I would say its completely wrong. It shouldn't matter if shes turned it black and white or put a word on the image. If its written that she may NOT manipulate then she has no excuse to do so.

[epatt250]

Manish I had a model completely trash a few of my images I sent her with edits. Tons of blacks at 0 and highlights at 255. I also have a release stating she is only allowed to crop and nothing more. I sent her an email asking her to state that she edited the images and she made a note on them. At the end of the day if she likes them better like that in her own port than what do I care? I show good stuff in my port. Who really makes great money off of MM in Arkansas anyway? I wasn't very pleased about it but what can you do when working for free/free?

You can do your best to ensure there is a quality file on both ends but in the end its not worth losing sleep over.

[inthedeck]

Nah, no sleep lost, Eli. I just mentioned to her that the release states she's not allowed to manipulate the images, herself. She took it down, and that was that. No need for anything else. Though, I will send her a B&W just because...and I'll even liquify her, in the places she did. ;)

[Kevlin Peterson]

Well, if you send it to the models site, of course she can manipulate it without permission because that is her site. Well, if you can send a picture that is not editable much better.

[inthedeck]

Well, if you send it to the models site, of course she can manipulate it without permission because that is her site. Well, if you can send a picture that is not editable much better.

I'm a little confused by your response. In essence, I wouldn't mind changing something that a model doesn't like...all they have to do is ask.

But, changing things on their own doesn't mean that I 'gave' them the right to do so, especially since they are using their own version of photochop...which becomes a problem when their version is contained in the exif data, alongside my copyright. That is something I'm not cool with...

[Mark_Cohran]

Well, if you send it to the models site, of course she can manipulate it without permission because that is her site. Well, if you can send a picture that is not editable much better.

You're incorrect. Providing the model with an image does not give the model license to manipulate the image, since that becomes a derivative work and is covered by the copyright which is still owned by the photographer. The only way the model would have a legal right to modify the image is if the photographer specifically licensed those rights to her.

[Gentleman Villain]

I kind of share Ansel Adam's point of view when it comes to photo manipulation. He made a comparison between photography and music by stating that the photographic negative was the composition...and the print was the performance. The composition might not change but the performance of the composition was open to interpretation.

I view the RAW file as the composition....and have no problem allowing others to interpret the composition in their own way. It wouldn't bother me at all to have a model convert an image...I would actually consider it flattering that she'd want to use one of my images to promote herself.

Maybe photographers need to start thinking a little bit more about the concept of "sharing"...and start thinking a little less about copyright/usage and other litigiousness

[inthedeck]

I wonder what Ansel would say, if someone converted one of his final images...

I do see your point, though...all she had to do was ask...and we could have worked it out. That's all.

[chris78cpr]

In that situation i would just drop her an email and offer to provide her a BW copy of the image which is processed to your standards.

[AxxisPhoto]

Manish,

Wow! She didn't even ask you?! I would ask her first to take down the image, and if she does not, report it to wherever it is being hosted. Damn....

[inthedeck]

Nope, she didn't ask Alex. She converted it to black and white, liquified herself (even more than I did :lol), and then put it up. Of course, it lacked contrast, and wouldn't have been my true work with b&w. ;) I did ask her to take it down, and she did. Since then, she's completely deleted her profile, from MM. Weird. :(

[AxxisPhoto]

THat's funny that she deleted her MM profile!!:lol::lol:

[inthedeck]

Well, I doubt it was because of me...or so I hope it wasn't. I know that she was moving to Kansas, and then somewhere else...so, maybe it's a temporary deletion? I dunno. I just found it rather weird.

I mean, all I really said to her was that the release states she cannot manipulate images, but, if she'd like to leave it there I'm cool with it, at least work on the contrast of the image. :lol: I even offered to send her an updated copy...but...never heard from her again. :(

Then, I went to go say thanks for taking the image down, and poof...her profile was gonzo. ??? Just weird. :rolleyes:

How's the new 50D workin' out for ya, btw?

[AxxisPhoto]

Man I LOVE the 50D!! I did a shoot last Sunday with one of my regular models and the IQ is amazing.

BTW, I think you scared her off!!;)

[inthedeck]

I don't think it was me, honestly. She even put up new pictures, from a few days later...that she shot with another photog. So, I dunno. :(

[JWright]

This whole thread points up one of the reasons I don't do people, model or wedding photography. I've never had an airplane or an animal alter or use one of my images without permission...

[artona]

I wonder what Ansel would say, if someone converted one of his final images...

After Ansel had finished with a print I would imagine anyone trying to improve on it would fail. If they did make it better Ansel would have been so mad with himself he would have gone straight back to the darkroom.

[Karl Johnston]

I'd be pissed if it was a crappy job...but if it actually looked good...hey...leave well enough alone right?;)

[Tarzanman]

If you weren't happy with her edits, I would have asked her to remove any data linking you to the edited photograph. That would have been sufficient.

IMO, time for prints = photographer shares copyright in exchange for rights to use the model's image for personal promotion. Everyone wins.

You asserting your 'rights' (and I use the term loosely) over a copy of her likeness violates the spirit of the agreement. Her disallowing you to display her likeness on your promotional website would be an equivalent action on her part.

[alt4852]

I kind of share Ansel Adam's point of view when it comes to photo manipulation. He made a comparison between photography and music by stating that the photographic negative was the composition...and the print was the performance. The composition might not change but the performance of the composition was open to interpretation.

I view the RAW file as the composition....and have no problem allowing others to interpret the composition in their own way. It wouldn't bother me at all to have a model convert an image...I would actually consider it flattering that she'd want to use one of my images to promote herself.

Maybe photographers need to start thinking a little bit more about the concept of "sharing"...and start thinking a little less about copyright/usage and other litigiousness

i've had my fair share of butchered work by friends and family. all i can say is, wait till someone takes one of your images, resizes them from 3:2 aspect ratio to 4:3, then uploads it onto their facebook using poor-quality jpg compression and credits you as the source of the photos. if you take any pride in your work, i think unauthorized editing is disrespectful at the very least and potentially offensive at the extreme. i work hard to make my images and i don't appreciate other people defacing them with inexperienced adjustments.

although i get paid for some of my work, i originally started photography as an outlet for artistic expression. altering images without permission would be analogous to altering the ending of a book and telling the author to go cry a river when they ask you to leave their work alone.

it's not just a legal issue, it's a matter of artistic respect.

[Mark_Cohran]

If it was time for prints, cry a river and then get on with your life. If you weren't happy with her edits, I would have asked her to remove any data linking you to the edited photograph. That would have been sufficient.

While POTN encourages spirited debate, we also strongly encourage an attitude of mutual respect. You can make your point quite easily using a less aggressive attitude and language.

IMO, time for prints = photographer shares copyright in exchange for rights to use the model's image for personal promotion. Everyone wins.

It depends on the agreement. In my TFP agreements, I specify that the model has limited usage rights to post the images provided to her/him in an online portfolio or to use prints provided by me as part of their print portfolio. There is no agreement for them to be able to manipulate the images in any manner. I don't know any photographers who allow their images to be manipulated without consent and approval unless they've explicitely transferred those rights.

You asserting your 'rights' (and I use the term loosely) over a copy of her likeness violates the spirit of the agreement. Her disallowing you to display her likeness on your promotional website would be an equivalent action on her part.

Again, it depends on the agreement and what was discussed before the shoot. My models all sign standard releases that specify the model's rights and the photographer's rights. The spirit of the agreement is what is written in the release.

[Papa Carlo]

That's outrageous !
Find a lawyer and file a lawsiut ! You'd better go directly to UN court to get a better settlement. An army could be an option but you try first from a SWAT team with a few helicopters to take the image down.
Nobody should be allowed to take a color image and convert it to black&white as it contradicts the whole purpose of color photography !
To be safe the next time I recommend keeping the lens cap on at all times. That significanlty decreases a chance of a photo theft in the future ! >:(

[alt4852]

That's outrageous !
Find a lawyer and file a lawsiut ! You'd better go directly to UN court to get a better settlement. An army could be an option but you try first from a SWAT team with a few helicopters to take the image down.
Nobody should be allowed to take a color image and convert it to black&white as it contradicts the whole purpose of color photography !
To be safe the next time I recommend keeping the lens cap on at all times. That significanlty decreases a chance of a photo theft in the future ! >:(

your sarcasm makes no sense considering the OP has not exaggerated the situation nor been overly dramatic about it.

secondly, there's a difference between changing a picture from color to black and white, and doing it without the permission of the owner and posting it in public.. especially when it is done poorly or in a way that degrades the original quality of the professionally processed image. it's just a matter of standards, and we're having a discussion about rights and responsibilities.

in a business where a lot of clients are acquired through word of mouth and viewing if images from other clients, degrading and altering images has a potentially negative effect on whether or not you can land an extra set of customers. it's something to consider, but the fact that you don't understand this i suppose just says a thing or two about yourself.

[inthedeck]

That's outrageous !
Find a lawyer and file a lawsiut ! You'd better go directly to UN court to get a better settlement. An army could be an option but you try first from a SWAT team with a few helicopters to take the image down.
Nobody should be allowed to take a color image and convert it to black&white as it contradicts the whole purpose of color photography !
To be safe the next time I recommend keeping the lens cap on at all times. That significanlty decreases a chance of a photo theft in the future ! >:(

Was this really necessary? You wanna play wise guy, go elsewhere. If you don't understand the ethics behind something like this, wait til it happens to you. You'll understand at that time, or maybe you won't. I'm sure you'll figure out what to do, when it does happen to you. ;)

As I said in a post that was deleted. You don't know me. You don't know what I discussed with the model afterwards. Yet, you belittle me like the last abuser. It's OK...I'll forgive you just the same. You're hatred towards me will only eat at you, buddy. My life will move on. :)

alt4852...thanks for the support. At least most of us who know, understand. :)