PCB Forums Closed [Archive] - Canon Digital Photography Forums

nestle

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 17:59

Whoa. Found out from DP forums.

We regret that the Paul C. Buff, Inc. Customer Forum has been
permanently closed. We appreciate the many enthusiastic members and
posts to this forum. Unfortunately the time involved in maintaining
this forum and the increasing presence of spammers and non-
constructive, impolite and otherwise negative posts have made it no
longer practical for us to continue this service to our customers.
For news, announcements and general customer information, please visit
paulcbuff.com (http://www.paulcbuff.com/)
For questions and comments, please mail info@paulcbuff.com

Thoughts?

GregMik

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:01

A victory for the trolls?:rolleyes:

Greg

Wilt

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:02

Paul does seem to get rather defensive and bristle rapidly to anything other than sterling remarks about the products. Maybe the frank commentary has gotten to him once more?!

dsmPhotoCompany

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:19

I find it to be an intense overreaction. This is what I posted there just before it was shut down on the thread discussing the closure...

-----

I agree, this is a serious overreaction. I've always enjoyed the things Paul does, but this will be the first time I am seriously critical of him.

- As a business owner, you need to realize you're going to get all types of feedback. It won't all be good. That's not always bad, those negative things can fuel the fire to bring new innovations and become better at what you do. Not unlike a strong photo critique.
- This may be the first time the PCB service (and yes, this forum is part of service) falls short of it's high standards. That's a shame.
- Many people have learned and grown their photo skills from this very forum. Being selfish because a little negative feedback didn't go your way and taking something a way from others just does not seem like you.
- I'd venture to guess this forum can be directly linked to thousands of dollars in sales. Money talks, or, I guess it doesn't.
- You gotta remember the 80/20 rule and it can apply in many ways. In this case, you're allowing the 20% that make up for 80% of the complaints to ruin it for the other 80%.
- This sudden change screams "I don't want to hear from my customers anymore". Whether that's the case or not, it certainly has that appearance. Again, sub par to your almost always superior service.

I do hope you reconsider as I not only will be disappointed for myself and the other members, but I don't think this is a solid business move for yourself. If you are willing to enable this behavior and allow the vocal minority to define you and how you do business, I guess that's your call.

-----

TMR Design

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:36

Alejandro Sandoval

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:44

RichNY

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:47

Where are we to get up to the minute info on his vaporware then?

Cathpah

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:53

I know I'll get some heat about this but in the time I spent there and the occasional visit or link to a thread over there I've found that Paul simply can't take criticism and gets defensive and becomes a whiny baby if anyone has anything negative to say about him or his products. This happens on other forums he participates in as well but he doesn't have control in those forums.

I've seen many instances when he blatantly removes the offensive posts and deletes and locks threads when he doesn't like the direction of comments made. He doesn't understand the concept of a public forum, and while we can all agree that the owner of a domain and forum gets to make the rules, he just doesn't get it.

Sorry, but he just can't take it. He sure can dish it out but when it comes his way, he simply won't have it.

+1
A forum is meant for discussion, and without different opinions, those discussions get pretty boring very quickly. A forum should not be used as just an advertising tool....if he were truly confident in his product/timeline, he wouldn't get so sensitive and freak if anyone said anything negative about his products.

Where are we to get up to the minute info on his vaporware then?

HAHAHHAHAHAHA.....too true.

I just hope the POTN lighting forum won't face a sudden influx of PCB fanboys who aren't willing to admit that his products/timelines have any faults.

Speedlighter

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:57

dsmPhotoCompany

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 18:59

TMR Design

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:00

Waa Wahhhh , what a cry baby!

He's pitiful.

dsmPhotoCompany

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:00

My favorite site gone:(

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3315/3505309469_9ea8d7022d_o.png
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3649/3506103196_561c3618e3_o.png
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3629/3505293749_7976054bf7_o.png

That last post from him is very disturbing. I wonder if the product line will just abruptly disappear should something not go how he likes it.

I just don't understand the knee-jerk reaction.

Lithian

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:02

He dropped out of the Fred Miranda (FM) forums a few days ago

I believe I will check out of FM for now. This was supposed to be a thread about a new product - a thread I didn't initiate. But it seems several on here would rather try to use it to attack and argue and attempt to belittle my company and my products in any and every way they can possibly find.

If that's what you want on FM - be my guest. For those who actually want info I suggest other forums. er for

It goes without saying that in that particular thread were people interested in his product and people asking for confirmation of the release schedule, to me a reasonable question where a simple request to await further details in the next few weeks would have served well... rather than viewing everything as an attack which has brought mostly negative reactions so far.

I assumed he meant the pcb forums, wonder what the other forums are then?

burntpixel

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:08

I was not really following that thread, I did look at it and went on. By the time I left the house after posting a follow up to my thread and got to work the forum was gone.

There were a lot of helpful people there that I will miss. This is not his first knee jerk reaction on the forum. He booted a lot of helpful, skilled photographers off his forum.

Pretty sad overall.

kencas

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:32

Yeah I too am really sorry that it has gone so abruptly. The images forum was a great source of inspiration for Seniors and individual portrait photography for me (and especially Pfiltz whose senior shots in his studio I absolutely adore), so it is sad to see it go...:(

Ken

Alejandro Sandoval

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:44

Pfiltz

Ken

Oh yeah...he ROCKS!

Alejandro Sandoval

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:45

Enjoyed seeing and hearing about your stuff there as well. :)

thanks dude

Speedlighter

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:46

Re: New Product Announcements
Medic1210
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:49 am

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 685
Location: North Carolina
Luap wrote:
We're concentrating on getting AB MAX and Cyber Commander out before we seriously get back to Einstein.

Hmmm, so the Einstein is officially on the back burner. Bummer. I am curious though, was the AB Max an afterthought when the Einstein turned out to be more difficult to build to the marketing claims? I find it interesting the Einsteins have been "Coming soon" for about a year or so now, and then we find the "big announcement" showcasing not an Einstein release, but a cheaper light never mentioned, and with a proposed release time of a couple months. Don't get me wrong, the AB Max sounds cool, and is a nice surprise, but for the many folks that have been holding out for the Einstein for so many months, hearing the Einsteins aren't even being seriously worked on right now is a bit of a letdown. I think you guys should have been more upfront with everybody on the current status of the Einstein. We should have been told months ago that you guys were putting more time and energy into this new AB than the Einstein. No shame in saying, "Hey guys, due to unforeseen circumstances, the Einstein project has been suspended temporarily/indefinitely while we work on a more feasible system for a quicker release. We'll let you know when/if the Einstein project is back up and running full steam ahead." Folks like honest projections, not misleading (intentional or not) posts saying big announcements are coming in 30 days whenever the Einstein or Cyber Commander thread is updated. Only telling us that there's a big announcement coming makes many, if not all, feel like the Einsteins are right around the corner, not that they've been put aside to get something else up and running. You should have just told everybody months ago that the Einstein project has been set on the back burner.

_________________
Never do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to the paramedics.

http://CurtisPhotoNC.com -- I'm possibly a little better than your average non-photographer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
mumbles
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:13 am

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:53 am
Posts: 64
Location: Massachusetts
Not to jump on any bandwagon that is currently forming. But to hear Einstien is on the shelf sucks. We know the markets change and new products are introduced which may end up cutting into your bottom end and sometimes you need to react to that. But i'm not sure what the urgent need for a spruced up AB is. Perhaps i never will. And that's ok. But i'd surely like to know...

_________________
http://www.symbolphoto.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
StewBEE
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:25 am

Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 654
Location: NYC
I don't like band wagons.

Yeah the Einstien being held off sucks. But I never count on anything untill it is tangible and real. I think everyone got caught up in the "Gossip" of the new releases of new product from Paul.

I think Paul needs to NOT tell anyone on here anything anymore about new product untill he can release it. Mainly due to all the baby tears of not getting their candy. It is not worth it to hear all the crying of the "But I want..."

A friend asked me if she should hold out on the Einstien. I told her get the product you need for the work you are doing now. There will always be another update or new product. But to wait and not shoot is just stupid. It is not like you will never use the light you bought before the new product came out. Regardless, she bought a now "classic" AB and has been doing many shoots with it. She is happy and the work is getting done. She is happy she did not hold out because she would be frustrated in waiting. She made the choice that fit what she needed to do at the time of the decision. She has no regrets.

If you guys were waiting and ended up with nothing, that is on you.

-StewBEE-

_________________
The House of Indulgence

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
tekdiver500ft
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:43 am

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:32 pm
Posts: 2622
Location: St. Johns, Michigan
StewBEE wrote:
I don't like band wagons.

Yeah the Einstien being held off sucks. But I never count on anything untill it is tangible and real. I think everyone got caught up in the "Gossip" of the new releases of new product from Paul.

I think Paul needs to NOT tell anyone on here anything anymore about new product untill he can release it. Mainly due to all the baby tears of not getting their candy. It is not worth it to hear all the crying of the "But I want..."

A friend asked me if she should hold out on the Einstien. I told her get the product you need for the work you are doing now. There will always be another update or new product. But to wait and not shoot is just stupid. It is not like you will never use the light you bought before the new product came out. Regardless, she bought a now "classic" AB and has been doing many shoots with it. She is happy and the work is getting done. She is happy she did not hold out because she would be frustrated in waiting. She made the choice that fit what she needed to do at the time of the decision. She has no regrets.

If you guys were waiting and ended up with nothing, that is on you.

-StewBEE-

+1

_________________
Fritz

*Tear it apart, but give tips and ideas as to how-to-improve...
*You're just jealous, 'cause the voices only talk to me!
*Proudly dancing to the beat of a different kettle of fish of another color.
*Portrait and Wedding Photography

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
mumbles
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:47 am

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:53 am
Posts: 64
Location: Massachusetts
I don't like obvious replies.

Yes, i have AB stuff and would never sacrifice a shoot because i'm waiting for a new hot product. That's just stupid. Get out and shoot.

However, in my scenario i've been waiting for something stronger and you keep hearing the buzz (pun intended) here on the forums about how it's close... just to hear it's on the backburner.

Of course it's a let down. Will it stop me from shooting today, tomorrow or next week? No way. But i was certainly looking forward to the release of Einstein. Andi was simply displaying my disatisfaction here on the forum. Nothing wrong with that.

_________________
http://www.symbolphoto.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
T_om
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:08 am

Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:58 pm
Posts: 40
Location: NE Florida
StewBEE wrote:
I think everyone got caught up in the "Gossip" of the new releases of new product from Paul.

Baloney.

Product specifications released BY THE MANUFACTURER is not "gossip". Einsteins feature set was not a figment of some random posters imagination. Products posted about (and advertised in national magazines) by the designer should have at least a reasonable expectation of becoming fact.

Most of the disappointment re: the NEW Einstein information about the possibility of no 12vdc capabilities results from expectations set by Paul, not random posters here. So I completely agree with you that pre-release of information like this is a bad idea. You are probably too young to remember Adam Osborne and how he killed his computer company.

Quote:
It is not worth it to hear all the crying of the "But I want..."

Then think of it as crying about "... we seem to not be getting what we were told was coming Real Soon Now" if it makes you feel any better.

Perhaps some new development will allow the 12vdc option, perhaps not. If the answer is "not", I will be disappointed, but I have managed to get through several decades now without Einsteins and will somehow muddle along without them if it comes to that.

Tom

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
LarryC
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:38 am

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:24 pm
Posts: 177
Location: Bismarck, ND
I think someone should get some cheese

Don't have time to find the original posts right now, but if memory serves me the Einsteins weren't originally "advertised" with 12 volt power. Seems that was an afterthought of sorts as well.

_________________
Nikon D300, D80, SB800, SB600
Alien Bees B800(2), B1600(1)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
Luap
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:39 am

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:15 pm
Posts: 3553
OK dear customers. This thread is now beginning to look like the complainers on other forums. So here is what a few seem to be telling me:

Paul, we don't want you to share any more info with us about what you're working on and what is coming in the future unless you are 100% certain that nothing can possibly change.

So what we want you to do is what other manufacturers do . . . just shut up until you are ready to ship a new product, then tell us Guess What, that product you bought yesterday has now been replaced and you're stuck with it. Sorry, no 60 day satisfaction guarantee, no apology - you're just screwed!!!

If that is what people on this forum really want, I can arrange to make no further posts here and just let you go about your business of putting down my company and my personal integrity like many like to do on DP Review and FM forum.

Of course, then I might as well just shut this whole forum down entirely and spend my time more constructively figuring out ways to manipulate my customers with BS ads and one-day special deals.

So you members decide and let me know.

_________________
Luap C. Ffub

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
mumbles
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:55 am

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:53 am
Posts: 64
Location: Massachusetts
Paul, people can be disappointed without threats of you closing the forum down. I personally, on some level, can appreciate the stress you are under. We all appreciate you being on the forums and giving us the low down on your products and lighting theory.

I'm not complaining or whining. I'm saying i'm disappointed. And while that can be construed as complaining or whining, i said i understand the product issues you are facing, again, on some level, not completely. And when the Einsteins are released, i'll be taking a number in line as they sound great.

I like many here have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on your products. (Look up my account) But you have to be able to take the good and the bad when you start a forum on your products.

I don't go badmouthing you anywhere. You are fantastic and offer incredible products at fantastic prices. Your custom service is bar-none the best thing in the industry. But you need to roll with certain punches. People will voice their opinion and as sure as i am you are a die-hard republican, i'm sure you can understand the wanting of freedom of speech. Even here on your forum.

_________________
http://www.symbolphoto.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
RDKirk
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:57 am

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 683
On that other forum, I just posted this:

Quote:
Simple fact of life in todays market is that everyone is behind. Just think about it.

That's why manufacturers more often keep developments closely held until release dates are certain...which inevitably catches people just having bought the old device when the new one is announced shortly before release.

That always brings cries of "Foul play!"

So a manufacturer gives a warning and sometimes can't deliver on time for reasons not under his control. More cries of "Foul play!"

A very few (exceedingly few among hardware manufacturers--Buff being one of those rare exceptions) will provide price breaks for people who bought the old product just before a new product annoucement, even though he's aso one of the few who will have annouced the new product in advance.

How does a manufacturer win at this, and which pattern works best for end users?

I've been waiting with breath abated for CyberCommander to replace my RR-1 units (which happen to be failing on me lately). One can only abate breathing for so long, so naturally I'm disappointed that it looks like it's going to be two more months.

However, being an adult, I'm perfectly aware "stuff happens."

And being a company owner myself, I'm also perfectly aware the company owner is a heck of a lot more unhappy at not getting a product out than any customer. There is a lot of money already invested in a new product, and that's money dribbling down the drain until that new product starts earning a profit.

Did Luap screw me over by giving advance announcement of CyberCommander and then being unable to deliver on time? Well, I'm disappointed that I don't have them already. But considering he's giving a 25% discount to previous RR-1 owners...I'm not quite as disappointed as I've been in other manufacturers who have failed to deliver on time...or at all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
Medic1210
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:13 pm

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 685
Location: North Carolina
Luap wrote:
OK dear customers. This thread is now beginning to look like the complainers on other forums. So here is what a few seem to be telling me:

Paul, we don't want you to share any more info with us about what you're working on and what is coming in the future unless you are 100% certain that nothing can possibly change.

So what we want you to do is what other manufacturers do . . . just shut up until you are ready to ship a new product, then tell us Guess What, that product you bought yesterday has now been replaced and you're stuck with it. Sorry, no 60 day satisfaction guarantee, no apology - you're just screwed!!!

If that is what people on this forum really want, I can arrange to make no further posts here and just let you go about your business of putting down my company and my personal integrity like many like to do on DP Review and FM forum.

Of course, then I might as well just shut this whole forum down entirely and spend my time more constructively figuring out ways to manipulate my customers with BS ads and one-day special deals.

So you members decide and let me know.

Paul, with all due respect, that post sounds like it was written by a pissed off kid who got his feelings hurt and is now threatening to quit the game and take his ball home with him. Nobody here is putting down your company or your products, or your integrity. All we're saying is you should have been more upfront several months ago that the Einstein was being put on hold while you work a different product to the market. We would have been cool with that. Instead, you've continued to answer questions regarding the Einstein with "just a little longer" "big announcements coming soon" etc. Of course we were expecting the big announcement to be at least remotely related to an Einstein release date, because that's what you led us to believe by not saying otherwise. As mentioned above, we've been seeing prototype renders of the Einstein in magazines for almost a year now. It was even put in a comparison of digital lights in Shutterbug not too long ago. I think the AB Max is a great idea, and most likely better for my needs personally than the Einstein anyway, so I'm glad to hear about it. I just think you should have been more upfront about the Einstein project as soon as you knew it was headed for the back burner. but you didn't, and now folks are disappointed. If you want to be the kid who walks away and takes his ball with him, that's on you, not us.

_________________
Never do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to the paramedics.

http://CurtisPhotoNC.com -- I'm possibly a little better than your average non-photographer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
Luap
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:20 pm

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:15 pm
Posts: 3553
Medic1210 wrote:
Luap wrote:
OK dear customers. This thread is now beginning to look like the complainers on other forums. So here is what a few seem to be telling me:

Paul, we don't want you to share any more info with us about what you're working on and what is coming in the future unless you are 100% certain that nothing can possibly change.

So what we want you to do is what other manufacturers do . . . just shut up until you are ready to ship a new product, then tell us Guess What, that product you bought yesterday has now been replaced and you're stuck with it. Sorry, no 60 day satisfaction guarantee, no apology - you're just screwed!!!

If that is what people on this forum really want, I can arrange to make no further posts here and just let you go about your business of putting down my company and my personal integrity like many like to do on DP Review and FM forum.

Of course, then I might as well just shut this whole forum down entirely and spend my time more constructively figuring out ways to manipulate my customers with BS ads and one-day special deals.

So you members decide and let me know.

Paul, with all due respect, that post sounds like it was written by a pissed off kid who got his feelings hurt and is now threatening to quit the game and take his ball home with him. Nobody here is putting down your company or your products, or your integrity. All we're saying is you should have been more upfront several months ago that the Einstein was being put on hold while you work a different product to the market. We would have been cool with that. Instead, you've continued to answer questions regarding the Einstein with "just a little longer" "big announcements coming soon" etc. Of course we were expecting the big announcement to be at least remotely related to an Einstein release date, because that's what you led us to believe by not saying otherwise. As mentioned above, we've been seeing prototype renders of the Einstein in magazines for almost a year now. It was even put in a comparison of digital lights in Shutterbug not too long ago. I think the AB Max is a great idea, and most likely better for my needs personally than the Einstein anyway, so I'm glad to hear about it. I just think you should have been more upfront about the Einstein project as soon as you knew it was headed for the back burner. but you didn't, and now folks are disappointed. If you want to be the kid who walks away and takes his ball with you, that's on you, not us.

I treat my customers with respect. When my customers treat me with disrespect as you are doing here, and start telling me how I should run my business while a guest in my house . . . well the consequences are pretty obvious.

_________________
Luap C. Ffub

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
Hobbyist Tim
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:21 pm

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:40 pm
Posts: 623
Location: Austin, TX
I haven't posted to this thread but have to say I'm very excited about the new products - specifically the ABMax, CyberCommander and PLM. I was shocked to learn about the ability to trade in classics under warranty for ABMax's (for $25 plus the cost difference) - how cool is that? I'm actually going to go ahead and get a few more cybersyncs simply because I can trade them in when the CC comes out (well, and I could use them now!) The PLM took some time for me to get my head around but it's really exciting as well - I'm totally looking forward to it.

When I step back from all of the details I see a business model that is a model for other businesses. In the past decade, product innovation has gone by the wayside and cost cutting has been the norm for our business leaders. After the Internet buzz settled down what did we see in the way of new product innovation? iPods and HD TV. That's really about it. Sure there have been continual improvements to other product categories but not many quantum leap products.

Meanwhile, in sleepy Nashville you've got PCB, Inc. saying they don't need MBA's, don't need a reseller channel, real people actually answer the phone, customer service hasn't been cut to improve profits, real R&D continues to churn out innovative "quantum leap" products, quality is world class, product pricing is significantly lower than competing products, product obsolescence programs ensure access to the latest and greatest AND the CEO is available to anyone who wants to make contact.

Oh - I almost left out an important detail - all while turning a profit.

All of this just takes the wind out of the sails of the big business execs.

To get back to the point - when people "complain" here, I take it more to mean that they wish Christmas Day and that "Radio Flyer" would come early - those who mention disappointment probably don't mean disappointment with the current offering - it's unbridled enthusiasm for the new stuff!

Keep up the great work!

Tim

_________________
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
ModifiedPhoto
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:27 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:21 am
Posts: 529
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Call me strange, but i'm thrilled that the Cyber Commander will be available soon and that their will be the AB Max line to fill in the midrange for users looking to upgrade but don't need top of the line features. (Hell, i'll probably be in line for a few come June.)

For my needs, I could care less if it had 12v power built in. But here is an idea, why not make it like a pack and head system where the 12v components (inverter, battery?, etc) are in a plug-in box that can be added on for those people who want it, kinda like a Vagabond but perhaps smaller, lighter and self contained. This obviously keeps weight, size and cost down on the flash units for those who don't need 12v power all the time or want/need the feature at all.

Building the battery into the pack also gives the ability to switch that out if it needs to be recharged. Plus it could use a smaller battery for short term powering and the terminals to connect it to a larger source if necessary. Plus since it would be in it's own enclosure, it could be placed closer to a remote 12v power source making it safer. And it could be swapped out in the event their is a problem with the unit or to switch with a charged one.

Either way, I still eagerly await the Einstein release but with the AB Max coming soon, I can fill in several blanks with those in the meantime.

Re: New Product Announcements
Author Message
Hobbyist Tim
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:29 pm

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:40 pm
Posts: 623
Location: Austin, TX
Medic1210 wrote:
All we're saying is you should have been more upfront several months ago that the Einstein was being put on hold while you work a different product to the market. We would have been cool with that. Instead, you've continued to answer questions regarding the Einstein with "just a little longer" "big announcements coming soon" etc. Of course we were expecting the big announcement to be at least remotely related to an Einstein release date, because that's what you led us to believe by not saying otherwise. As mentioned above, we've been seeing prototype renders of the Einstein in magazines for almost a year now. It was even put in a comparison of digital lights in Shutterbug not too long ago. I think the AB Max is a great idea, and most likely better for my needs personally than the Einstein anyway, so I'm glad to hear about it. I just think you should have been more upfront about the Einstein project as soon as you knew it was headed for the back burner. but you didn't, and now folks are disappointed. If you want to be the kid who walks away and takes his ball with him, that's on you, not us.

I disagree completely. Every time Paul comes on this forum and shares information about new products I take it with a grain of salt. Things change. Designs may not work out as originally intended, suppliers may disappoint, critical components can go end of life - the list goes on and on. 99% of companies don't share future product information like PCB does because they know that people can interpret this information as some sort of guarantee. My take is that Paul views this forum and the people who read it as a little smarter - that we understand things may not turn out as planned - and we totally appreciate being allowed the peek behind the curtain at future products. We all know that a product is not a product until it starts shipping and has been in the field for a period of time - but everytime I fire up a Bee, meter that light and release the shutter I'm thrilled at the results I get. I chuckle that Paul is racking his brains 16 hours/day to deliver something better - and I feel fortunate to be the beneficiary of his passion.

I'll take things the way they are - including products that may not turn out as hoped/planned.

Tim

_________________
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
mumbles
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:29 pm

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:53 am
Posts: 64
Location: Massachusetts
Hobbyist Tim wrote:

To get back to the point - when people "complain" here, I take it more to mean that they wish Christmas Day and that "Radio Flyer" would come early - those who mention disappointment probably don't mean disappointment with the current offering - it's unbridled enthusiasm for the new stuff!

Keep up the great work!

Tim

That's a fair enough assessment. We aren't talking smack to you in your own 'house' paul. And i've never told you how to run your business. I will however state my opinion on a product, current or future.

_________________
http://www.symbolphoto.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
Medic1210
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:39 pm

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 685
Location: North Carolina
Luap wrote:
I treat my customers with respect. When my customers treat me with disrespect as you are doing here, and start telling me how I should run my business while a guest in my house . . . well the consequences are pretty obvious.

Consequences? As in what, Paul? Banning me for calling it like I see it? That post was exactly like the kid threatening to take his ball home. Sorry you feel I was trying to tell you how to run your business. Couldn't be farther from the truth. Just helping you understand why not everybody is running to the highest mountain to shout praise to the Paulmighty over the latest big announcement. Sorry, but some folks feel they were misled, and are a bit disappointed. If you want to ban me because I'm not one of the fish swimming with the current, and only showering you with praise, by all means, feel free.

_________________
Never do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to the paramedics.

http://CurtisPhotoNC.com -- I'm possibly a little better than your average non-photographer.

Last edited by Medic1210 on Tue May 05, 2009 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
Medic1210
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:47 pm

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 685
Location: North Carolina
Hobbyist Tim wrote:
I disagree completely. Every time Paul comes on this forum and shares information about new products I take it with a grain of salt.

Fair enough. But when I see ads in national photography magazines about a product saying "Coming Soon", some folks kinda take it with a smaller grain of salt.

Quote:
Things change. Designs may not work out as originally intended, suppliers may disappoint, critical components can go end of life - the list goes on and on.

I completely agree, and understand 100% that things don't always go as planned. Surely this wasn't just suddenly apparent to PCB 10 days before the Big Announcement. Had Paul told folks things had changed, and a new product was in the works a few months back, maybe there would have been better reception to the big announcement. Instead, every time someone asked about the Einstein release date, we were either told "a little longer", or "big announcements are on the way." Sorry, but that sets folks up for disappointment. At any rate, looks like I might not get a chance to respond to any replies, but I'll still read it. .

_________________
Never do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to the paramedics.

http://CurtisPhotoNC.com -- I'm possibly a little better than your average non-photographer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
majorlk
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:08 pm

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 897
Location: Naugatuck, Connecticut
StewBEE wrote:
I think Paul needs to NOT tell anyone on here anything anymore about new product untill he can release it. Mainly due to all the baby tears of not getting their candy. It is not worth it to hear all the crying of the "But I want..."

Absolutely!

_________________
Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
ZBob
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:05 pm

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:20 am
Posts: 13
When i posted my disappointment in the Einstein not coming out the one who is upset is me. I followed the chats everyday here and on other forms.

Paul you did tell us the Einstein was coming soon and just around the corner and you did tell us about many of the features and did keep up talking about it up till the big announcement.
I posted many times about the Einstein and you posted back with information.
I was expecting the Einstein to be out as part of the big announcement you led us into thinking that. Why would we not the Einstein is all you talked about.
I see no reason why you would be mad and upset at us your customers for being upset and talking about it.
Many of us did put off buying other things waiting for the Einstein.
For me we do not shoot much all winter so it was easy to wait and at one point you did say June so i was waiting till June as we are now shooting almost every day for outdoor sessions i still use the lights i have.
(It has not stopped us from shooting) we have almost 20 session booked this month.
But we did expect to start offering a second mid day session and this is what we waited for - for using the Einstein.
So with no Einstein this will change or business plans some.

I do not want to buy a WL and a VB that is to many pounds to move around other wise i would all ready have it. The Einstein was going to be the right light for the job that we could use smaller 12 volt battery's to run it.
Not many lighting systems out that can offer what i have been looking for. Everything you posted about the Einstein was everything i want in a location light. Using a custom 12v battery in different sizes for different jobs is fantastic and long over due that was going to be great.

I am upset but it is not killing me i will move on and i do hope some day the Einstein will come out even if it works like the new ABMax if it will work with a small outside inverter i will still be happy i just need the 1000 watts.
I will use the ABMax 640 for my sunset session to replace what i am using now.
I do not have a 640 watt system now so i will see how far i can go in bright sun with the 640 watts and BD i still may be able to shot some but just not make the background as dark as i wanted.

Do not shut down the forms i like reading them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
kenyee
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:51 pm

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:02 pm
Posts: 4
ModifiedPhoto wrote:
For my needs, I could care less if it had 12v power built in. But here is an idea, why not make it like a pack and head system where the 12v components (inverter, battery?, etc) are in a plug-in box that can be added on for those people who want it, kinda like a Vagabond but perhaps smaller, lighter and self contained. This obviously keeps weight, size and cost down on the flash units for those who don't need 12v power all the time or want/need the feature at all.

I don't think the abmax uses 12V as input internally. Usually, the higher the voltage, the faster the caps can be recharged. Unless you mean the Einstein which can run on 12V input...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Product Announcements
Luap
Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:11 pm

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:15 pm
Posts: 3553
This will be my final post on this thread and on this forum. This thread will be locked and the entire forum will be removed today and will cease to exist.

Here's why: I have done everything in my power to follow the Golden Rule and to keep my customers informed with what I am doing. I don't do this to sell stuff - I do it to protect customers from the surprises they get from other companies that care less about their customers than I do.

Along the way I have done my very best to inform you regarding various delays and engineering obstacles in the development of Einstein. All of these were caused by promises and projections made to me by others and were entirely out of my control.

Einstein was never advertised. Shutterbug decided to publish preliminary projected specs back in October, against my advice.

I have apologized at least three times for the delays and have worked 80 or more hours a week to bring the best I can to my customers, in the shortest possible time frame.

In exchange, while I'm sure the silent majority understands the realities of the situation, there are (as there are in all forums) a few armchair critics who are willing to come into my house as guests and accuse me of deception, stupidity, bad morals - you name it.

In closing, thanks to the many humble and serious members who have contributed here. But, unfortunately, you can thank the minority for causing me to no longer want to have to defend myself and my company from the few small minds who are now forcing this forum to close down. In short, I have better things to do with my very valuable time.

Best regards to all

Paul C. Buff

_________________
Luap C. Ffub

Titus213

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:47

Sounds like he just reached his limit. Too bad - for him and everyone else.

Cathpah

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:50

In short, I have better things to do with my time.

I wonder if he measures his available time in "effective free seconds" or "true free seconds"

:p

TMR Design

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:51

I wonder if he measures his available time in "effective free seconds" or "true free seconds"

:p

LOLOL Jeff, you rock !

Cathpah

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:53

speedlighter....PLEASE don't copy and paste stuff from other forums or other threads, especially when they're that long. If you'd like for people to read something, please link to it.

dsmPhotoCompany

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:55

TMR Design

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:57

After reading all that nonsense I think that's the first time I've ever seen the phrase "Einstein is on the back burner".

Albert would be so disappointed. :D

nestle

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:57

speedlighter....PLEASE don't copy and paste stuff from other forums or other threads, especially when they're that long. If you'd like for people to read something, please link to it.

He can't link to it because the forums are gone.

Cathpah

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 19:58

I'm just very disappointed he allowed a very few that were a bit disrespectful ruin it for the entire group.

I do think we have to really examine paul's claim of these people being "disrespectful."

People having certain doubts about things, or being frustrated that after a years worth of delays on the last major announced products (Einstein and cyber commander), paul would announce another product when all he's got is a CAD drawing.

If people are truly trolling or being disrespectful (calling names, swearing, etc.) then that's one thing....but simply disagreeing with Paul or being a bit skeptical does NOT qualify as disrespect.

TMR Design

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 20:00

While I think the seconds measuring comment was amusing, I am not going to pile on with the slam Paul mob, it's just silly.

I'm just very disappointed he allowed a very few that were a bit disrespectful ruin it for the entire group.

Considering all the hype Paul gives himself and how he knocks other top of the line products used by professionals world wide, I do find it amusing.

Look, I never wished anything bad for Paul or his company but this makes him look so foolish and I'm seeing and hearing buzz all over the internet, even from his most loyal customers, and many are not only sad to see the forums go, but are greatly disappointed in Paul, his company, his demeanor and lack of maturity.

As I said in my earlier post, he can dish it out but can't take it at all when it's directed towards him. He need to do some growing up.

dsmPhotoCompany

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 20:02

He can't link to it because the forums are gone.

Pssst, you quoted the wrong person. :)

I do think we have to really examine paul's claim of these people being "disrespectful."

People having certain doubts about things, or being frustrated that after a years worth of delays on the last major announced products (Einstein and cyber commander), paul would announce another product when all he's got is a CAD drawing.

If people are truly trolling or being disrespectful (calling names, swearing, etc.) then that's one thing....but simply disagreeing with Paul or being a bit skeptical does NOT qualify as disrespect.

I agree. There were in fact a few members that were clearly looking for reasons to get under his skin and sadly, did so. Paul is one to not take anything that is not praise well - it's no secret. I think he is 100% in the wrong here. But it's also wrong to say everyone was being respectful too.

J Kacey

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 20:04

I really enjoyed the forum and the members there.
It's upsetting Paul would just pull the plug without notice and from what I read he was not disrespected. This was his choice, but not the best business move IMO

nestle

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 20:06

Pssst, you quoted the wrong person. :)

Hehe, my bad! I posted and read it again and was like "what the hell did I just reply to?" :) Edited.

dsmPhotoCompany

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 20:09

but not the best business move IMO

That's not an opinion, it's fact. I can recall countless times people would come to the site specifically seeking product advice prior to buying - note they were between his products and a few others, etc.

It's highly unlikely I'd be anywhere close to where I am now without the site, mostly for the fact I doubt I would have met another local photog. who has been a fantastic mentor to me.

As I said before, I won't play the childish randomly slam Paul game, but I will be critical of him for this move that benefits no one.

Cuervo79

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 21:03

wow. all this an I didn't even got to read it live. hehehe. Well I never thought this would happen, all the posts I read while following the thread (was up to page 14 in my browser) none of them where too critical or bashing him in any way, looks like just because a few posts made him snap he over reacted.
Hopefully his costumer service and his products won't suffer from this.

eduardofrances

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 21:08

Whoa. Found out from DP forums.

Thoughts?
Whenever I visited his forums there were always nay-sayers, people whining and demanding for features to be added to the Einstein, lots of rude people saying "x" brand is better (which is irrelevant in the end, I mean you get to create an account just to show you are a fanboy of "x" brand?? WTF??)and a lot of spammers, people who attacked Paul, etc... to tell you the truth the man had A LOT of patience I would have send everyone to hell way before he did it ;).

In less words he offered the hand and people grabbed his ears, that pisses anyone.

J Kacey

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 21:15

I think this move will put a lot of added work load on buff customer service. A ton of people went to the forum where there questions were answered by experienced users. Now most will call CS... As for the forum costing $100,000 a year to run... I'm sure some experienced webmasters can chime in on that one. Seems a little far fetched to me, but I'm not a webmaster either... I know there were about 4 different moderators while I was a member there. What ever it cost I'm sure the investment was returned 100 fold.

Whenever I visited his forums there were always nay-sayers, people whining and demanding for features to be added to the Einstein, lots of rude people saying "x" brand is better (which is irrelevant in the end, I mean you get to create an account just to show you are a fanboy of "x" brand?? WTF??)and a lot of spammers, people who attacked Paul, etc... to tell you the truth the man had A LOT of patience I would have send everyone to hell way before he did it ;).

In less words he offered the hand and people grabbed his ears, that pisses anyone.

I respectfully disagree... I think it was one on the friendliest forums around

dsmPhotoCompany

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 21:18

I don't buy the $100k number either. Not for a second.

Cuervo79

5th of May 2009 (Tue), 21:19

lol I don't know what he meant with the $100,000 year to run comment, only if he was talking about bandwidth. You can buy the template for the forum like this one for about $250 bucks and it needs very little maintenance

Speedlighter

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 01:27

jbrown7815

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 01:28

100k a year for bandwidth on that forum is near impossible, rofl.

No problem.... I can delete it :rolleyes:

Thanks, it helped me. You couldn't link, so you copy pasted. :)

It's not hard to just scroll past it if he doesn't want to read ;)

MR do little

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 01:42

Not a suprise at all. Why should MR Buff who couldnt participate on a public forum without getting all defensive and trashing the competition and even get personal and calling people names, be able to run his own ?

TinoDeVoe

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 04:31

man what a crappy deal that site was pulled down. I just bought my first alienbees and just trying to figure things out. I'm reading through those posts and on one hand i can agree with the owner, why people go about on webforums bitching and complaining about why there's no product on x date is a joke. they should just be grateful this company exists and they're trying their best to look out for the clients. what if they rushed the product to appease these people and heaven forbid the gear has some glitches! i wish these guys would have just stfu and sounded a bit more gratious. on the other hand, the move by paul is pretty surprising and seems way to big of a personal move when it should be about business. let's hope it was that time of the month and they'll reconsider this decision. Doesn't leave much confidence in the company from my point of view.

Mark

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 04:51

Hmmm, crybaby, just hope the Einsteins happen someday...

kaelaria

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 06:31

As the former top poster over there, I can honestly say - no big loss. Sure he threw the baby out with the bathwater as it may be, but there wasn't much baby left by now. He proved to be VERY two-faced and untruthful at times. It became apparent to people one at a time in his dealings with them. In my case it stemmed from my political discussions with him (on threads he started then pulled his typical take-ball-go-home antics when someone disagreed with his views) and ended with him blocking my account (and others) at Christmas last year. Then he got busted in lies about doing so by the other members when we went missing.

The point being - sure there was some great info being shared there (by the members) - but that ended last year. This spring it turned into not much more than a kiss-fest for mediocre hobbiest shooters and AB (with a few notable exceptions of course).

I do give him credit on one thing though - he FINALLY made good on his bluff! I can't COUNT the number of times he threw the exact same tantrum, but instead of ACTUALLY shutting the forum down (at that time there was still good discussion and marketing going on, not like this spring), he would simply lock/delete the particular thread. I think we saw the same 'ol rant and threat every week for most of last year. Threads about products, politics, suggestions on how to improve the board, etc. Mostly coming from VERY good-willed people trying to help. The most comical had to be when people VOLUNTEERED to help monitor the forum for spammers, etc. and he would blow through the ROOF with the ol 'Don't tell me how to run my business' routine! LOL

So, good riddens Paul - you proved to the rest what some already knew. There's no going back now, cats out of the bag. PCB Forum - I wish we could bring you back as you were a year ago, sans Paul - you are missed (not that there aren't good alternatives like this one right now).

(edits for type-o's, I have fat fingers!)

_____________________________
BG Pictures Photography (http://www.bgpictures.com)
Cigar Obsession (http://www.cigarobsession.com)

TMR Design

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 07:51

As the former top poster over there, I can honestly say - no big loss. Sure he threw the baby out with the bathwater as it may be, but there wasn't much baby left by now. He proved to be VERY two-faced and untruthful at times. It became apparent to people one at a time in his dealings with them. In my case it stemmed from my political discussions with him (on threads he started then pulled his typical take-ball-go-home antics when someone disagreed with his views) and ended with him blocking my account (and others) at Christmas last year. Then he got busted in lies about doing so by the other members when we went missing.

The point being - sure there was some great info being shared there (by the members) - but that ended last year. This spring it turned into not much more than a kiss-fest for mediocre hobbiest shooters and AB (with a few notable exceptions of course).

I do give him credit on one thing though - he FINALLY made good on his bluff! I can't COUNT the number of times he threw the exact same tantrum, but instead of ACTUALLY shutting the forum down (at that time there was still good discussion and marketing going on, not like this spring), he would simply lock/delete the particular thread. I think we saw the same 'ol rant and threat every week for most of last year. Threads about products, politics, suggestions on how to improve the board, etc. Mostly coming from VERY good-willed people trying to help. The most comical had to be when people VOLUNTEERED to help monitor the forum for spammers, etc. and he would blow through the ROOF with the ol 'Don't tell me how to run my business' routine! LOL

So, good riddens Paul - you proved to the rest what some already knew. There's no going back now, cats out of the bag. PCB Forum - I wish we could bring you back as you were a year ago, sans Paul - you are missed (not that there aren't good alternatives like this one right now).

(edits for type-o's, I have fat fingers!)

Thanks for this post. It confirms what many of us have known for a long time.

dsmPhotoCompany

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 07:57

Good to hear from ya Bryan. I won't go to those extremes on some points, but there were some people shown the door for no reason.

Village_Idiot

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 08:30

Makes me not want to even think about purchasing anything else from this guy, regardless of how well it could possibly fit my needs.

I'll save up and buy a $3000 portable monolight setup before spending $1000 on anything from him.

I mean seriously, if he's going to pull something like that, what happens when he gets an email complaining about his products and he shuts down the AB's website.

What would be funny if he visibly lost thousands and thousands in sales because of this move.

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 08:32

I hear quite a bit about this whole AB fanboy thing. So I'm going to put my two cents in (maybe three who knows).

First, let me say I work as a Systems Administrator (my other real job) for a facility that is not only a non-profit but takes care of the elderly and the youngins.

Second, lets just say the older we get (and this goes for all of us) the crankier we get. Call it the "he's set in his ways" syndrome. He's entitled to it, Paul has after all done things few can do, create a great product at a fantastic price that all of us can afford sooner or later. Not to bad for a man who is not only CEO but also 72 years old. Him being the main engineer and by all accounts, the only engineer that ain't peanuts folks.

Third. Call it pride or hubris which ever fits your desire. Paul has pride in his products and his ability. No more so than most of us here. Either way, it generally gets us into troubles if we don't handle it well. Just look at the critiques of work here, some good, some not so good, others just down right hostile. It happens when you open yourself up to others.

Personally, I think Paul made the right decision. I'd rather have him designing products he takes pride in then designing products that meets every little nit-picking want -to-have request out there. Face it, how many of you talk directly to the CEO of say Elinchrome and get that one on one face time? Probably not many. So thanks Paul for all the information, the great customer service and more importantly for your time and dedication in producing products we can use and afford.

My last and final point is simple: We are all fan boys, be it Canon, Nikon or (insert company name here). If I could do what Paul does and make money at it, with his level of attention to the customers, well I'd be better off financially and more than likely better known. Meanwhile, I'm using my AB's and not looking back at silly little discussions of about effective ratings versus real, I'd rather learn lighting than conduct silly (to me) measurements.

neliconcept

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 08:37

shooterman

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 08:47

I wonder if he measures his available time in "effective free seconds" or "true free seconds"

:pbw!

dsmPhotoCompany

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 08:52

Disagree with viper on it being a good move. Why not keep the site but take more of a backseat role on the forum? It's NOT a difficult concept.

This move will definitely impact sales, no way it can't. If he's fine with that, I guess he may not be as smart as I thought.

dsmPhotoCompany

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 08:54

I do agree on your fanboy comments, viper. It is quite silly.

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:00

do you own your own company and your basis of making a living is with happy customers? i see about a 80-90% happy customer rate with PCB so im not saying they aren't but doing this kind of crap is probably going to drop that percentage rate a good bit, business cant be personal or else you fail, thats life!

trolls are different then unhappy customers, now their could have been a moderator who said.. please keep the personal attacks to PCB on a down low or please stop saying this is better or that is better, we are working on making our product better for the future ourselves.

this kind of move was personal and it was stupid.

just my opinion, but it could end up leading to a downfall for PCB and i dont want to say it but it really could

I do own my own company, two of them in fact.

Personally, I don't think this will have an impact on sales except perhaps those that listen to others (call it the fanboy input syndrome). Those people will always make decisions on what best fits their needs using other opinions. No big problem there personally but I always investigate things based on my needs versus what fits my budget and what is also deemed quality.

Generally I don't post a lot on forums, I read a heck of a lot though and not one of my decisions is based on being a fan boy. Eh, okay I like my Canon but if I had the money I'd probably opt for something else.

Paul delivers a great product, has great support from my experience. Perhaps cutting off this forum venue is a bad idea, or perhaps not. Only time will tell. This much I do know, those that buy his products do so on recommendations from others, those that don't, do so either don't because they feel pro gear is needed (even on an amatuer level) or because they just don't like the product.

Personally, I don't know if I'd be willing to toss 20K down the drain just to find out my indoor light skills suck. That's the practical me. :D

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:04

neliconcept

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:08

Business is personal and that's why a good business succeeds. If it were impersonal well you end up being bailed out by the tax payers. I think the current state of economy indicates that for a company to succeed they have to have a great product, great support and be affordable as well as making sure the bottom line is profitable. When you take the personal out of business it generally gets replaced with 'the greed'.

that i can understand, but when you cant take criticism or you attack your own customers, personal is a different level then taking an interest in your own product, or at least I view it that way.

This will impact sales a great bit, people will look at this and say, well im not sure i want to go that route even if they are cheaper, he doesnt seem to care anymore.. (he may or may not care but that is how it will be viewed)

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:14

This is for iClick.

I think Paul really likes the interaction. True it probably gets a bit much but my take on it is thus: Creative people seek feedback... we all do. How many of us post pictures? How many of us are out trying to sell our vision? How many of us feel a bit of rejection if the folks buying don't see the concept you're selling? Probably all of us at one time or another.

It is a part of that creative process to want to share. I do it, and I know most of you do too.

Taking a back seat on the forums would be to me like having someone take your pics and sell them under your name. Not ethically speaking of course but rather the act of removing oneself from the creative process. I suspect that is what Paul feels. If he has to take a back seat why bother with the whole process? Why not just concentrate on your creativity rather than waste time on those who troll?

I think most of us despise trolls. Paul would probably be in this group too.

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:22

that i can understand, but when you cant take criticism or you attack your own customers, personal is a different level then taking an interest in your own product, or at least I view it that way.

This will impact sales a great bit, people will look at this and say, well im not sure i want to go that route even if they are cheaper, he doesnt seem to care anymore.. (he may or may not care but that is how it will be viewed)

Let's look at the opposite side of the coin, just to play the devil's advocate here.

What if he cares so much that it's painful? If you gave birth to your child and someone said, well that's nice but couldn't you have fixed the ears? Or eyes? Or maybe the color just doesn't go with your furniture.

Creative people care deeply about what they do, I view Paul no more differently than any other creative person. I can't fault him for being human nor will I fault him for acting it.

Again, I don't think the business impact is going to be all that great. Folks may think he doesn't care but they are of the same mindset as 'trolls' sometimes in my mind. You, nor I know the man and neither of us, nor for that many possibly any of us can know the pressure he is under to deliver Einstein.

When in a pressure-cooker environment I generally note (twenty years of naval service talking here) that civility is the first aspect of humanity that tends to be thrown out the window.

Given that thought, I suspect that with Pauls drive to create Einstein they way he spec'd it and the delays in getting it out there is biting heavily into his civility.

Frankly, as I said, I'd rather have him creating then wasting time on silly little things.

Yeah, I too get a bit testy when things aren't going my way during a shot, thankfully so far it is only still subjects. In this I'm glad because I know for sure one day someone is going to grab an AB and bonk me with it but good.

Wilt

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:27

The man's defensiveness and inability to deal well with criticisms notwithstanding, the absence of a forum does not equate to a company with poor customer service...the level of service and customer satisfaction with product support exhibited in the past by PCB is truly a standard for other companies to try to reach. Forums like POTN probably do as much for promotion of the PCB products as their own forum does! And as long as they continue to stand by their products, I doubt the vast majority of owners truly care about the demise of the forum -- in fact, they might not even be aware of its past existence. I agree with Viper about sales effect being small.

Design problems do happen where they are outside of the control of the company (such as PCB) the suppliers have problems with key components or circuit boards that are essential to the design, causing delays to the release to manufacturing. And if there are no alternatives available from other suppliers, your timetable for product release is hosed. It isn't always the product designer's problem, it can often be a supplier's component design problem. And it is often times not predictable for the timing of the resolution to the problem. I know, I've been there. Paul simply doesn't handle the public impatience -- or critique, however justified or unjustified -- well at all. A good marketeer would say something like "We are encountering unanticipated issues that need resolution. Stay tuned. " The fact that he doesn't is the indication of his own problem in not being great in handling people, in spite of his technical expertise...not the first time that has happened to a good designer turned manager! The buyers of the products of his company are affected by quality of design, and excellence in support, not by the rants of the CEO. It does not reduce the level of quality or the level of service; it is merely a bad boy CEO running the company (like they do at tens of thousands of other companies!)

dsmPhotoCompany

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:29

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:31

The man's defensiveness and inability to deal well with criticisms notwithstanding, the absence of a forum does not equate to a company with poor customer service...the level of service and customer satisfaction with product support exhibited in the past by PCB is truly a standard for other companies to try to reach. Forums like POTN probably do as much for promotion of the PCB products as their own forum does! And as long as they continue to stand by their products, I doubt the vast majority of owners truly care about the demise of the forum -- in fact, they might not even be aware of its past existence.

Design problems do happen where outside of the control of the company (such as PCB) the suppliers have problems with key components or circuit boards that are essential to the design, causing delays to the release to manufacturing. And if there are no alternatives available from other suppliers, your timetable for product release is hosed. It isn't always the product designer's problem, it can often be a supplier's component design problem. And it is often times not predictable for the timing of the resolution to the problem. I know, I've been there. Paul simply doesn't handle the public impatience -- or critique, however justified or unjustified -- well at all; his own problem, not the buyers of the products of his company. It does not reduce the level of quality or the level of service; it is merely a bad boy CEO running the company (like they do at tens of thousands of other companies!)

badboy? Must be his hair.:) Perfectionists tend to be a bit more intolerant I would think.

eduardofrances

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:32

The point being - sure there was some great info being shared there (by the members) - but that ended last year. This spring it turned into not much more than a kiss-fest for mediocre hobbiest shooters.

And what's the difference with every internet forum where they share photos?, I mean I have seen my fair share of forums where even the most ugly shot gets praise because of the buddy-buddy spirit between their users, including this one too, with gear wanking too (with the classical "I'm a Profoto/ Elinchrom/ Alienbees user and I'm awesome")

TMR Design

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:36

And what's the difference with every internet forum where they share photos?, I mean I have seen my fair share of forums where even the most ugly shot gets praise because of the buddy-buddy spirit between their users, including this one too.

Absolutely. There are always members that are elevated to some weird celebrity status and can do no wrong. There are also images that get posted to the Glamour & Nude forum that are nothing special and the only reason they get praise is because they are showing women with little to no clothing and the reality is that if those same women had their clothes on, the images would go unnoticed or receive criticism based on viewers actually seeing more than just T & A.

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:37

So if he wants feedback, why kill the site?

This WILL impact sales. Countless lights and accessories were sold directly because of that forum.

And aside from that, many phitographers learned and collaberated there too. His selfish move have a negative impact on everyone.

As pointed out there are other forums such as this one, where even now there are discussions going on concerning AB's/White Lightnings etc.

I was a member of the PCB forums and when I logged in this morning I was rudely awaken (either that or it was the caffeine) by the failure of the site and it's goodbye message.

Regardless, I noticed in many cases the forum went from a product centric forum to discuss PCB products to pretty much a general forum much like DPReview. Sure there were a lot of dicussions on Paul's products but just as much concerning other products.

Hence why I don't think the impact in sales is going to be affected all that much. Discussion forums still exist and will always have some reference to PCB stuff and well, if it is your board and XYZ company is getting their 'fanboys' in there it defeats the purpose of the product specific forum in my mind.

Ever notice on how in DPreview the Nikon users and Canon users are always stepping on each others board? :D

epatt250

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:41

He should have never had forums to begin with. While I think it was cool for me as a potential customer, I dont think it was great for business. Not to mention the quality of posters and volume is nothing compared to this forum.

The problem is this is the internet and people like to show their asses on the web b/c you dont have to run the risk of getting punched in the face. I think more PCB hater fanboys were invented there than were thwarted. People are selfish and greedy, especially Americans, lets face it. We have spent generations and generations taking from others. So with forums to vent on all you have is the people on there whining about wanting more. It's never enough for alot of people. They want 1000WS strobe with all the trimmings and the ability to be powered off of paper plates, and they want it for $100 and RIGHT NOW. People dont think logically from an engineering and business standpoint about what is really feasible to accomplish.

If you look at my post history here you will find where I stated that the Einstein was too good to be true. I said either the 12V capability would be scrapped or the price would be through the roof. It looks like I nailed that one. It just wasnt proving to be possible to accomplish and people were mad about it. He tried it, wanted to accomplish it but just could not make everything fall in line with expectations.

Sooo... what it seams to be happened with the AB Max line, and I am just guessing here. Is they took the most out of the Einstein line that they had working, and put it in a plastic housing and called it an AB Max. Then people bitched and moaned about them taking R&D away from the Einstein to spend it on the ABMax. I seriously doubt that happened. I think the stuff in the ABMax was ready to go in the Einsteins already and they could not get the power supply issue resolved. So instead of making people wait 3 years for it they offered a Einstein Lite for those that wanted the features but did not need 12v power. For me personally that was perfect. I just want a decent light I can take on location, sync to 1/320 flawlessly, and has a more consistent color, and not spend Profoto money on it.

The take the toys and go home mentality is childish indeed. He should have waited for a calm time and close the forums. He should have never had forums. Should just be like Elinchrom and others and just drop new lights on you and discontinue stuff as they please with no notice. Then leave people to banter on intarweb forums over whether or not a light has been discontinued based on if its in stock at B&H. He probably lost alot of WL sales by making the Einstein announcement anyway. Paul was foolish to be that close to the customer base and expect people to show some decency.

magicmikey

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:44

Okay, this might not be the most popular point of view but here are my thoughts. It's his forum. Most of us knew Paul could get really agitated about complaints but there was a lot of good information there. Why would you push the complaints when it was apparent Paul was getting aggravated?

I, repeat, it's his forum. He has the right to run it the way he wants regardless of whether you like it or not. Every forum I am on has people who get annoyed at the way the moderators do things. It's just the way it is. They have rules and not everyone likes them.

Was Paul over-reacting? Sure, but we knew he had a tendency to do that. Why push it?

I'm not saying we should only have stuck to complimenting his products but why not make some suggestions about his upcoming products without going to the point of criticizing?

I was amazed at the number of people who went to that forum and complained irrationally about one of Paul's products. If you have a complaint, take it up with customer service. You want to make it public, go to another forum. Why do it on the manufacturer's forum where they're going to get aggravated or pull it?

Just because Paul set up a forum didn't mean he had to put up with everything people posted. Even if he was irrational, he had the right.

I'm disappointed. I went to the forum daily and got some good information and saw work from some great people. By the way, I do think the people on the forum who posted good ideas did get some things accomplished. The CyberSyncs originally were going to have AC-only receivers. After many people commented that they wanted battery-powered receivers, they were quickly added to the product line.

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:45

Sooo... what it seams to be happened with the AB Max line, and I am just guessing here. Is they took the most out of the Einstein line that they had working, and put it in a plastic housing and called it an AB Max. Then people bitched and moaned about them taking R&D away from the Einstein to spend it on the ABMax. I seriously doubt that happened. I think the stuff in the ABMax was ready to go in the Einsteins already and they could not get the power supply issue resolved. So instead of making people wait 3 years for it they offered a Einstein Lite for those that wanted the features but did not need 12v power. For me personally that was perfect. I just want a decent light I can take on location, sync to 1/320 flawlessly, and has a more consistent color, and not spend Profoto money on it. .

I whole-heartedly agree that the ABS appears to be Einstein to the engineering level available or not perfected as of now. Still you have to admit it's a great way to introduce a new product using current R&D.

dsmPhotoCompany

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:45

And what's the difference with every internet forum where they share photos?, I mean I have seen my fair share of forums where even the most ugly shot gets praise because of the buddy-buddy spirit between their users, including this one too, with gear wanking too (with the classical "I'm a Profoto/ Elinchrom/ Alienbees user and I'm awesome")

Exactly. Fortunately I've never cared about who posted the image, but instead the actual content. So you quickly don't become part of the buddy-buddy crowd when you critique a photo from someone everyone admires. And I like that, as I tend to get more honest critiques on my stuff. Well, except for those that can't handle a critique and just come after your work in retalliation. :)

eduardofrances

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:48

Absolutely. There are always members that are elevated to some weird celebrity status and can do no wrong. There are also images that get posted to the Glamour & Nude forum that are nothing special and the only reason they get praise is because they are showing women with little to no clothing and the reality is that if those same women had their clothes on, the images would go unnoticed or receive criticism based on viewers actually seeing more than just T & A.

Exactly and agreed! and with this I don't mean to say there aren't good images being posted here in the Glamour and nude or that there weren't good images being posted in the PCB forum, But sadly:

a) Even so-so to horrible glamour photos gets lots of praise -regardless of the quality it isn't like it is J. Stephen hicks posted there- (here and in many other forums)
b) The buddy-ism takes a role in the comments

neliconcept

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:52

Let's look at the opposite side of the coin, just to play the devil's advocate here.

What if he cares so much that it's painful? If you gave birth to your child and someone said, well that's nice but couldn't you have fixed the ears? Or eyes? Or maybe the color just doesn't go with your furniture.

Creative people care deeply about what they do, I view Paul no more differently than any other creative person. I can't fault him for being human nor will I fault him for acting it.

Again, I don't think the business impact is going to be all that great. Folks may think he doesn't care but they are of the same mindset as 'trolls' sometimes in my mind. You, nor I know the man and neither of us, nor for that many possibly any of us can know the pressure he is under to deliver Einstein.

When in a pressure-cooker environment I generally note (twenty years of naval service talking here) that civility is the first aspect of humanity that tends to be thrown out the window.

Given that thought, I suspect that with Pauls drive to create Einstein they way he spec'd it and the delays in getting it out there is biting heavily into his civility.

Frankly, as I said, I'd rather have him creating then wasting time on silly little things.

Yeah, I too get a bit testy when things aren't going my way during a shot, thankfully so far it is only still subjects. In this I'm glad because I know for sure one day someone is going to grab an AB and bonk me with it but good.

heres my problem with this, if you take so much interest in your product and you get defensive about it but dont fix it? then your business will fail and it will fall fast and hard.

when you release CG images of a new product and you dont actually show production or how its being built or if it is even being built, then thats another problem within itself.

I use ABs right now all the time with the studio im in, even though I own elinchrom lights, I have to say they do produce pretty good light, build quality is so lacking that I have broken 4 flash tubes because of the horrible design to install a modifier and the flash tube is exposed. so its not like i havent had to deal with them before. (not my lights, the studio owners and I thinking about telling her to change systems soon)

neliconcept

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 09:58

Ever notice on how in DPreview the Nikon users and Canon users are always stepping on each others board? :D

thats the nature of human beings, they want to defend something they rightfully own, but if you keep it civil then it becomes a discussion

same goes with football and college teams and their rivals, for example, south carolina and clemson, two heated rivals, each others fans on each others boards talking crap, goes with camera owners, car owners, whatever,

PCB should have just kept it civil.. get some moderators ffs

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:01

heres my problem with this, if you take so much interest in your product and you get defensive about it but dont fix it? then your business will fail and it will fall fast and hard.

when you release CG images of a new product and you dont actually show production or how its being built or if it is even being built, then thats another problem within itself.

I use ABs right now all the time with the studio im in, even though I own elinchrom lights, I have to say they do produce pretty good light, build quality is so lacking that I have broken 4 flash tubes because of the horrible design to install a modifier and the flash tube is exposed. so its not like i havent had to deal with them before. (not my lights, the studio owners and I thinking about telling her to change systems soon)

Okay, lets answer your first statement without stirring up a hornets nest. How do we know Paul isn't going to fix it? I'm assuming you're speaking of the ABs right now.

It appears the AB Max solves the accessory holding issues as well as the exposed flash tube. I would point out that there are a lot of examples of lower priced lighting from other galaxies that have that same issue. Personally its nothing I worry about even though I do own the bees and well, okay it is a bit scary but nothing to keep me up at night about. :)

Frankly PCB isn't the only company guilty of using Autocad to advertise. Many companies also have non-working mock-ups at the big photo glitz shows when their products aren't ready for delivery. If I read the Photokina updates I do notice that some products aren't available, some products have pictures and are unavailable and some well, how many custom handworked clay car models at auto shows have you seen? It happens all too often I think. Probably taught in Product Introduction 101.

Either way it is moot, PCB will continue in what ever capacity they can, GM and Chrysler may not.

DamienPaul

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:05

$100K a year for a forum and site? seems very far fetched to me...

nestle

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:06

Makes me not want to even think about purchasing anything else from this guy, regardless of how well it could possibly fit my needs.

Unfortunately, I feel the same way. When running a business, you need to be able to take criticism constructively to make improvements. You also need to (self-)realize that if you are playing defense against your own customers more and more, you have done something wrong. I've seen PCB's posts in his forums "apologizing" but it never seemed to have been one for his own mistakes, he kept blaming others involved in the process that kept missing deadlines. If I hired a contractor and they kept missing deadlines, they wouldn't last very long. You miss one deadline, okay, that's tolerable. If your contractor continues to miss deadlines, you can't continue pointing a finger at their ineptness because you've hired them and continue to entrust them with your business and reputation.

In the end though, it is PCB's business and he can run it anyway he wants. As a potential client, I'm not very fond of how badly he handled his own mistakes.

Wilt

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:09

Unfortunately, I feel the same way. When running a business, you need to be able to take criticism constructively to make improvements. You also need to (self-)realize that if you are playing defense against your own customers more and more, you have done something wrong. I've seen PCB's posts in his forums "apologizing" but it never seemed to have been one for his own mistakes, he kept blaming others involved in the process that kept missing deadlines. If I hired a contractor and they kept missing deadlines, they wouldn't last very long. You miss one deadline, okay, that's tolerable. If your contractor continues to miss deadlines, you can't continue pointing a finger at their ineptness because you've hired them and continue to entrust them with your business and reputation.

In the end though, it is PCB's business and he can run it anyway he wants. As a potential client, I'm not very fond of how badly he handled his own mistakes.

...unless they happen to be the ONLY source of what you needed

MR do little

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:11

Personally, I think Paul made the right decision. I'd rather have him designing products he takes pride in then designing products that meets every little nit-picking want -to-have request out there. Face it, how many of you talk directly to the CEO of say Elinchrome and get that one on one face time? Probably not many. So thanks Paul for all the information, the great customer service and more importantly for your time and dedication in producing products we can use and afford.

My last and final point is simple: We are all fan boys, be it Canon, Nikon or (insert company name here). If I could do what Paul does and make money at it, with his level of attention to the customers, well I'd be better off financially and more than likely better known. Meanwhile, I'm using my AB's and not looking back at silly little discussions of about effective ratings versus real, I'd rather learn lighting than conduct silly (to me) measurements.

I partially agree, MR Buff made a bad decision from day one to interact on a personal level with the public. (on various forums)

If a CEO behaved like he have done over a DPR they would be the laughing stock of the industry (at least in my country)

It would be as if the CEO of Profoto here in Sweden would go online and call the competition both this and that, and on top of that calling individual names...

Dosent really matter what or whom who triggers him. Point being that you represent a company/product and if you want people to take your company serious you dont get all personal and dirty on public forums.

I hear alot of his great service, many other countries in Europe have consumerright laws that protect the customers and dont allow reatailers of manufacturers to do anything else but to offer great service and support (this is of course in their own interest)

Regardless how impressed one is of Paul and his colorful engineering, one cant help to think what will happen once this colorful personality no longer will be able to run AB...

/MR do little

magicmikey

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:13

Unfortunately, I feel the same way. When running a business, you need to be able to take criticism constructively to make improvements. You also need to (self-)realize that if you are playing defense against your own customers more and more, you have done something wrong. I've seen PCB's posts in his forums "apologizing" but it never seemed to have been one for his own mistakes, he kept blaming others involved in the process that kept missing deadlines. If I hired a contractor and they kept missing deadlines, they wouldn't last very long. You miss one deadline, okay, that's tolerable. If your contractor continues to miss deadlines, you can't continue pointing a finger at their ineptness because you've hired them and continue to entrust them with your business and reputation.

In the end though, it is PCB's business and he can run it anyway he wants. As a potential client, I'm not very fond of how badly he handled his own mistakes.

Do you always check to see if a company's CEO takes criticism well before you buy from them? Come on, he's an eccentric older gentlemen. He also has been a major force in making studio lighting affordable and continues to create new products that people want. His customer service is topped by no one. And yes, he can throw tantrums. Who cares? You like his products, you buy it.

It's not like he's committing crimes or being highly unethical.

nestle

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:16

...unless they happen to be the ONLY source of what you needed

Wilt, I believe that is called a monopoly and I just can't imagine such a monopoly in the lighting industry where there are so many players. Believe it or not, nothing in a monobloc is high tech to the point that only one company in the entire world can design/manufacture it especially in a global recession where there are literally thousands of intelligent people out of the job and looking for work. To think that there is only one supplier/manufacturer that can build what PCB wants is being naive at best.

TMR Design

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:17

...unless they happen to be the ONLY source of what you needed

... that can produce the item on the cheap. Part of the problem with bringing products to market that are very inexpensive and more affordable than other grands is that you have to sacrifice quality, durability and rigid specifications of components that you might otherwise get if you did not have a the cost requirements. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's just a fact that goes with manufacturing and depending on third party suppliers.

neliconcept

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:18

epatt250

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:20

magicmikey

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:21

I would probably be about 80% right that if a CEO of another company pulled this kind of bull#### then most people would think twice about buying one of their products.

so yes some people do buy based on the representation of the company, its kinda part of the business world and peoples thoughts on it

It really seemed to hurt Microsoft that Bill Gates was often accused of being ruthless with competitors and many people have expressed a distaste for him! ;)

neliconcept

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:24

It really seemed to hurt Microsoft that Bill Gates was often accused of being ruthless with competitors and many people have expressed a distaste for him! ;)

thats by far the dumbest comparison i have ever seen

thats microsoft, they practically own their part of the industry, mac is catching up though so it may have, who knows

but microsoft has minimal competitors

PCB? their are like 15 light brands i can come up with. so yeah its different

constrict

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:24

I don't really know much about what's going on lately, but I remember one time when I asked if people were ever confused for being 'Paul C. Buff' by seeing his name on all your gear and Paul got easily offended.

I own AB lighting and modifiers and they do what I need them to do but the one thing I'm not happy about is the quality of modifiers, very cheap feeling. They won't hold up to heavy use/abuse as I'm sure heavy duty modifiers from other manufacturers would (at more cost $). My next set of lights may not be AB's, but nothings set in stone.

Village_Idiot

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:25

Do you always check to see if a company's CEO takes criticism well before you buy from them? Come on, he's an eccentric older gentlemen. He also has been a major force in making studio lighting affordable and continues to create new products that people want. His customer service is topped by no one. And yes, he can throw tantrums. Who cares? You like his products, you buy it.

It's not like he's committing crimes or being highly unethical.

No, but when they're doing things that get them into the media (be it big news or big forums) then they're actively harming their reputation.

If the CEO of Taco Bell threw a fit and said he was not doing any more interviews ever because PETA claimed that they used Grade E meat that was swept up off the floor and criticizing the taste of their food, would you not start to wonder if some of that meat actually came from the floor?

If PCB is going to "close up" part of his business because of the reaction of a few, what makes people think that one day he just might get tired of the entire thing and just close up his company entirely leaving people high and dry?

Is it rational? No. Does that mean it's not plausible? No.

magicmikey

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:37

thats by far the dumbest comparison i have ever seen

And the civility remains.

neliconcept

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:40

And the civility remains.

excuse me, but it deserved it since you decided to use "microsoft" as an example.

Wilt

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:45

Wilt, I believe that is called a monopoly and I just can't imagine such a monopoly in the lighting industry where there are so many players. Believe it or not, nothing in a monobloc is high tech to the point that only one company in the entire world can design/manufacture it especially in a global recession where there are literally thousands of intelligent people out of the job and looking for work. To think that there is only one supplier/manufacturer that can build what PCB wants is being naive at best.

Sometimes 'monopoly' is correct. Sometimes it is reality!

My day job now is not photography. We have an issue NOW that only one company in the world today makes what we need, and if it does not work right then we have no product to offer. We have that very problem NOW...we are not naive, nor are the PhDs simply stupid! We have tried to find an alternate source, it does not exist.
Does more than one company make a 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens which I need for one-lens coverage at a wedding (if I was to go back into photography for income, not hobby)?! (Tamron's 17-50 has no IS; so if the Canon design had a major flaw and withdrew the product, there isn't an alternative.)

Wilt

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:49

If PCB is going to "close up" part of his business because of the reaction of a few, what makes people think that one day he just might get tired of the entire thing and just close up his company entirely leaving people high and dry?

Is it rational? No. Does that mean it's not plausible? No.

And what makes people think that the WL and AB brands will persist after Paul decides to retire (or, bless him, he passes on). For that matter, what assurance do we have that any corporation will continue to survive?!

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 10:55

Okay... I do remember a time when Apple WAS the only player in the market with major market share. The Microsoft based systems weren't on the horizon back then. Before Microsoft entered the world of computing there was Tandy/PET/Altair to name a few and all had various flavors of operating systems.

It wasn't (if I recall correctly but then I'm old) Microsoft dominated back then, it was the Apple and Commodore that really held things. Atari jumped in with their hardware and of course the others were still struggling along.

Apple made a fortune when the Woz introduced 5.25" drives with all the controller hardware stripped out and put into the Apple II. Made 1k costing drives only $300 back then... yeah it was an expensive hobby. Yet Microsoft hadn't made any inroads back then.

Then along comes IBM and the Microsoft partnership (so to speak) where Microsoft introduced an easier to learn DOS. (Easy being a relative term here.)

So along comes a spider that sat down beside her and.... We all know the current ending, Microsoft now dominates what Apple once owned.

Determining factors in the death of Apples market share? High costs. Pretty much the end of story for them. Apple finally dropped the 68000 processors and went to Intels, still the cost is up there but I have to admit it is a good product.

I owned Apple years ago but the upgrade costs of 2K a year killed me, with IBM compatible products that cost was signifcantly reduced.

Either or folks the world still spins, Microsoft dominates now, someone else possibly will replace them later. I don't call Microsoft a monopoly, there is always some version of Linux out there and there has been others that tried but failed.

Okay.. back on track. Has anyone seen my brain?

nestle

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 11:25

Sometimes 'monopoly' is correct. Sometimes it is reality!

My day job now is not photography. We have an issue NOW that only one company in the world today makes what we need, and if it does not work right then we have no product to offer. We have that very problem NOW...we are not naive, nor are the PhDs simply stupid!

Lighting equipment is not Tamilflu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir) of flu prevention nor the Google of search engines. What you are comparing is apples to oranges. What you may need for your day job may require a fleet of PhDs but does manufacturing lighting equipment? This isn't to design the cure for cancer nor the vaccine for Ebola. This is just electronics. A few years ago for my senior design class, I worked with a few classmates to design a simple MP3 player. In the process, we needed to get two PCBs fabricated (PCB in this case is Printed Circuit Board, not Paul C. Buff). Do you know how many companies in the US alone we could have used? Three companies that our advising professor have personally used and highly recommended, one that he did not recommend. Of course, I'm also comparing apples to oranges here because the PCB we needed was tiny and obviously less complex than what Paul needs for his products but the point I'm making is that it's just electronics and there are hundreds of companies that be contracted to fabricate it.

Does more than one company make a 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens which I need for one-lens coverage at a wedding (if I was to go back into photography for income, not hobby)?!
No, but again apples to oranges. The 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens is a consumer product manufactured by Canon and carried by vendors. The prerequisite for this example is that by default, you have a Canon camera and you need a lens with a Canon-mount. I just don't believe that there is only one company that PCB could have hired to design/manufacturer what he needed and it just so happens it's the company that misses deadlines all the time.

Wilt

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 11:44

Lighting equipment is not Tamilflu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir) of flu prevention nor the Google of search engines. What you are comparing is apples to oranges. .

Nestle, you are assuming too much about the Buff development of the newest product (and I similarly could well be assuming more complexity that real). If Paul needed a custom coded EPROM to make his product work, and if the programming required a specific EPROM or required an outside programmer to write it, there are two points of failure in that scenario...the supplier of the EPROM might have gone out of business (in this bad economy) or the programmer got laid off who was working on that project, and the remaining programmers are too busy to finish the job without a wait. That's just one possible scenario.

The reality is a total guess for YOU and for ME! You could equally be griping about a product that I am responsible for, not knowing those realities.

nestle

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 12:39

Nestle, you are assuming too much about the Buff development of the newest product (and I similarly could well be assuming more complexity that real). If Paul needed a custom coded EPROM to make his product work, and if the programming required a specific EPROM or required an outside programmer to write it, there are two points of failure in that scenario...the supplier of the EPROM might have gone out of business (in this bad economy) or the programmer got laid off who was working on that project, and the remaining programmers are too busy to finish the job without a wait. That's just one possible scenario.

The reality is a total guess for YOU and for ME! You could equally be griping about a product that I am responsible for, not knowing those realities.

Both of us are definitely making a lot of speculation and assumptions and I have no problem admitting that. I still maintain that from experience (ableit in a much smaller scope) the world is not limited in the resources that are needed to design and manufacture such products. If anything, there are people/companies that would go out of their way to get a work contract. It's really a shame that PCB happen to pick those that keep missing deadlines. I guess the inherent problem here is that someone promised PCB something that they couldn't deliver and PCB himself made the mistake of jumping the gun on promises to his own customers.

Again though, PCB can obviously run his business any which way he wants. He just can't expect everyone to like it and not provide feedback/criticism for it.

jcw122

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 12:46

nestle

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 13:44

As a company, you really should not have your own forum on your company site, nor post on any other forum stating that you are representing that company. I think it is very unprofessional to do so. I'm a member of various forums on the web, and it is pretty much a standard no-no for businesses to directly post on enthusiast/consumer forums. They should have not had a forum in the first place IMO.

I know photography businesses like his are somewhat casual, but still, I do not think it is a professional thing to do, unless you are posting in a dedicated Retail Companies sub-forum of sorts.

Public forums can be a double-edged sword to companies. It can be a very helpful thing for the company and its customers if run carefully. If not, it can become a bad PR machine that grows out of control. To be honest, I think it was pretty smart that PCB closed down his forums, I'm just surprised it wasn't done sooner.

I am okay with companies representing their business here though. Some examples of POTN members that I found helpful/professional that repreresent a business: Helen from Adorama, Lon from FlashZebra, and also Henry from B&H participates in various forums (or at least used to).

TMR Design

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 14:09

Public forums can be a double-edged sword to companies. It can be a very helpful thing for the company and its customers if run carefully. If not, it can become a bad PR machine that grows out of control. To be honest, I think it was pretty smart that PCB closed down his forums, I'm just surprised it wasn't done sooner.

I am okay with companies representing their business here though. Some examples of POTN members that I found helpful/professional that repreresent a business: Helen from Adorama, Lon from FlashZebra, and also Henry from B&H participates in various forums (or at least used to).

Yes but he closed the forum in such a way that makes him look like a pouting little baby that didn't get his way. For someone that claims to be so professional and compares his company to the likes of Elinchrom and others, I just think it was mishandled. Whether or not it was the right thing to do is another story but considering all the rave reviews and endless praise for Paul, his staff and the great customer service, this just goes against the grain. If you're going to play with the big boys you have to grow up and act like a big boy.

kaelaria

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 14:39

Here's the official pity-party:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/767603/2#7045075

Viper97

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 14:59

Which when everything said here is taken into consideration, I would have closed my forum also. It's a pity that a few bad apples spoil the entire bushel but it is a fact of life.

For those that don't take kindly to the way it was handled, eh, I've seen enough on these forums to suggest criticism isn't taken very well by a majority of the forum members on any forum, be it photography, videography or making sausages.

Either way, it is human nature to defend ones thoughts and ideas as well as their kids and siblings. Could it have been handled better? Probably but this is a done deal and I suspect it isn't going to change. Hey, I'm old and I am set in my ways... ask anyone that has ever met me. Better yet don't, I'm not sure I'd like their responses. :)

nestle

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 15:04

He did his best to keep forum members informed of the progress of these new products for one reason: To let prospective customers know what was in the works so they wouldn't blindly buy certain current products, only to find out weeks or months later that a more suitable product was on the horizon.

Ironically, PCB customers were disappointed because they were blindly led to believe that certain products would be on the horizon, only to find out almost a year later that these products still weren't.

TMR Design

6th of May 2009 (Wed), 15:09

I've run forums myself and understand about maintaining a domain, backing up data, bandwidth required, etc.

Paul was using a free piece of software (phpBB) and other than some graphical customization the forum was running 'out of the box'.

I can't see how he is spending $100,000 a year to keep the forum going unless he is somehow factoring in an hourly rate for his time. Images were links and not uploads. Private messages weren't allowed. It doesn't add up.

Unfortunately that post in FM doesn't really cut it and it's backpeddling after the fact. Sorry to say I'm not really buying it. If Paul is as bright as he thinks he is then how could he be so idealistic to think or believe that a public forum would be run in the exact manner he wanted? Anyone that opens a public forum with free registration and access knows what they're getting into and accepts the nature of that type of arena.

For someone so bold as to name a product Einstein I find it difficult to buy into the well written post and explanation posted.

constrict

7th of May 2009 (Thu), 23:59

I can't see how he is spending $100,000 a year to keep the forum going unless he is somehow factoring in an hourly rate for his time. Images were links and not uploads. Private messages weren't allowed. It doesn't add up.

I also think that statement on their part was total nonsense, if it costs PCB $100,000/year to keep that forum active imagine how much this one (which is far more active) would cost? $10,000,000? um, no!

dsmPhotoCompany

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 00:15

Here's the official pity-party:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/767603/2#7045075

Ya really need to read this.

He not only blamed the "rude" members and the alleged $100k annual costs, but blamed all members of the forum for not policing it good enough.

Isn't that what the moderators are for?

Good move, blaming the members and loyal customers. You stay classy, Paul.

jbrown7815

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 00:22

I don't blame him. It sucks, but that post has some good points, people should not have attacked him like they did.

If you wont buy something from him b/c he closed a forum, you are an idiot, IMO.

I'll be buying stuff from him very soon.

Karl Johnston

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 01:28

To be honest, I'm way too busy to waste sleep over it but..sad shame for people that frequented there, though, what's the point of having a forum centralized around a product ? Eventually you'll run out of time of glossing it, and people who don't like it will bash it .. So why have a forum for something so small as a line of studio lights?

???

AB/WL lights are great for the money, by the way, I don't think it's right to judge a product or a company based on the reflections of one man, let alone an internet forum. That practice, alone, could be seen as unprofessional (or at least unreasonable).

I've conversated with Paul C buff, before, and I think that any business owner (especially him) would take offense to someone unreasonably bashing their lifeswork.

Think of it like this; you present a perfect print to a client and they bash it for being...well lets use this example. I was selling a print and the buyer said to me: "This is a nice shot..but I'll only buy it if there are mountains in it. Why don't you go back to the computer, work some photoshop magic and give me a nice mountain range to look at instead of those trees?"

The image in question is the one in my avatar
<<<<

At the time the klaxon in my head was saying; "Moron Alert. Moron Alert. Moron alert." I'm sure that's what goes through PCB's head when he encounters someone that bashes his work or products. Obviously nobody but him and his company is going to have a full understanding of the ins and outs of the product and why it is the way it is...the point is...it's annoying when someone comes along and says your work sucks after you spent all the time, energy and money creating it.

Maybe he's just human, people on this forum get heated (myself included) when their work is seen to be not as good as they warrant or not as impressive as they're used to.

splithesky

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 09:42

WOW !

I have to say what I know about lighting I learned in there I will be grateful to be part of that gang...very talented people in there.

I remember reading Giulio Scorio post religiously....

too bad...

Giulio was the main reason I started frequenting that forum at first. I've always liked the forum with the exception of a couple of members that were always negative about criticizing others work... but didn't have their own quality work to back it up. But that'll happen most anywhere I guess. I agree that it seems like an extreme over reaction.

Village_Idiot

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 09:45

AB/WL lights are great for the money, by the way, I don't think it's right to judge a product or a company based on the reflections of one man, let alone an internet forum. That practice, alone, could be seen as unprofessional (or at least unreasonable).

Even if that one man is the man that runs that company?

Kind of like it's unprofessional and unreasonable to throw a fit and act like a child, blaming not only those that criticize you but those that are your loyal customers in the process?

MR do little

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 10:09

AB/WL lights are great for the money, by the way, I don't think it's right to judge a product or a company based on the reflections of one man, let alone an internet forum. That practice, alone, could be seen as unprofessional (or at least unreasonable).

So if call my clients name, and trash talk other photographers (the competition) they wont think twice when they consider my services/products ?

Doesnt matter how good i am, if i cant act professional noone will hire me...

teeny

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 12:20

I would like to say Thanks to Viper, Magic Mikey, JBrown and Karl for the postition they take on what happened.

I think its terrible how all these people are trashing him and his product. They were good enough before and they will still be good enough! I was on that forum and after hearing from some of you today, I am definetely sure he made the right decision! There is one person on here that
I actually used to like you and even spoke up for you once, I suppose thats because I can actually see between the lines sometime. But now, the way you are talking and a few more I am not naming but are very shocked at the way you are behaving. Who's being childish now?

I am so glad that I have not seen some of the other regulars on here posting negative comments. Kudo's to them!

Paul C. Buff Still rocks!! :)

Teeny

dsmPhotoCompany

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 13:55

Still love the products, not loving how this was handled at all...that won't change.

If it's "trashing" him to be critical of this selfish action, so be it.

TMR Design

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 14:08

Still love the products, not loving how this was handled at all...that won't change.

If it's "trashing" him to be critical of this selfish action, so be it.

Exactly.

Viper97

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 14:34

Exactly.

Here I thought this thread was closed.

I'll define my view of selfishness. First, I have money and I have a product and I say, you know with this money I can start a forum for everyone to use. Then I think, hmmm... no won't do it because it will become another chaotic forum like all the others, the fanboys will scream my praises and the detractors will scream for a rope. Nope, can't let that happen. So the heck with them.

Or how about? I'm designing a product that could save the entire planet from global warming but it involves shearing all the hair from the polar bears to finish up. Now you know Greenpeace is going to have a fit with that as well as PETA but it is the ultimate solution. So the parties go to court to stop the shaving of polar bears. PETA and Greenpeace win and well, we all end up at 1/100th of the population we once were. (Not a bad thing mind you when I look at the picture of humanity in its current state.)

Who is selfish now?

Let's turn that product into a new line of lights. Rather than say, have infinately adjustable bezzle-whompers, some only want bezzle-whompers in predictable increments what should I do? Listen to both sides? No sides? Continue on with my design?

This is what focus groups do. They take a product (say, a Wendy's burger) and reduce any and all flavor from said product until everyone is happy.

What we end up with is an extremely dull meal. (Taco Bell would be a better example of Americanized Mexcian food dulled to perfection.)

I take a photo, I work it over, I enhance it, it becomes mine. You may not like it but I'm not asking your opinion, I am however, expressing myself. Opinions don't always agree on a single line of thinking and more often than not have lead to some major wars, virtual or real.

Here's what I think, beating a dead horse just for the sake of beating it is rather stupid. Pretty much the same as making the same comments time and again. If you don't like it, move on, the horse is already dead and chances are good everyone is watching you beat the horse and making their judgements of you.

Our actions mark us as the humans we are. Continued unreasonable actions makes you a people. I've always said, there are 80% people and 20% humans in this world. Then again I've always said, I love humans, its the people I can't stand.

Viper97

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 15:03

Okay... this is really weird. Prince released a new 3-disc album and well, it was panned by the 'experts'.

Want to see what POTN and this thread look like from someone who can see both sides? Read the comments by the readers. Yeah, I had flashbacks to the fanboys arguments folks make around here. :)

epatt250

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 16:19

I think its only trashing if you dont use his products, have no interest in using his products, but whenever there is a thread about him or his products you make sure to come in and take the opportunity to talk negatively.

If you dont use PCB products I dont see why anything that happens with that company matters. How many PCB customers go over to Elinchrom threads are trash the fact that their cheaper lights wont run off portable power, wont freeze sports, or wont sync at high speeds?

I dont go trashing the owners of gay porn sites either. I dont look at gay porn (ok I have clicked a few on accident b/c the thumbnails were too small) so what difference does it make to me how their sites are handled?

I have better things to do than follow the things I dont like or care for just so whenever they fall down I can hop on board the hater wagon and go sling ****.

nestle

8th of May 2009 (Fri), 16:25

I think its only trashing if you dont use his products, have no interest in using his products, but whenever there is a thread about him or his products you make sure to come in and take the opportunity to talk negatively.

Can you point to someone who has never used PCB products or have absolutely no interest in using his products that has been "trashing" PCB's products?

I'm in the latter camp myself as I've never owned PCB's products but have been trying to follow the progress of his new "products" for a while and honestly got sick of waiting. Doesn't mean that I'll never invest in a PCB product either but I certainly will take my time to read the reviews and won't be an early adopter of one.

Edit> Hell, I want PCB to be successful with everything he's promised in his new products so that it forces other companies to drop their prices and innovate! :)

Karl Johnston

9th of May 2009 (Sat), 18:46

So if call my clients name, and trash talk other photographers (the competition) they wont think twice when they consider my services/products ?

Doesnt matter how good i am, if i cant act professional noone will hire me...

If you're products are good enough they will sell themselves independently of what you say or do ! :D

Jon Foster

19th of May 2009 (Tue), 22:39

It's a bummer the forum there is closed. But I guess having the archive to read is still better than nothing.

On the other hand, I tried to see if they would give me a discount on some Alien Bee's for my school. They were very quick to say no way. So I bought 4 sets of lights, stands and softboxes from another manufacturer that was more than happy to help get a new school program going.

Jon.

archosman

3rd of June 2009 (Wed), 14:08

Hmm... his business is not that far from where I work!