"but we can not afford that" Here we go again.

[Oneslowz28]

A good friend of my mothers is getting married for the 3rd time. This will be her first "real" wedding. She has been bugging me for months and months about shooting the wedding and I have always told her that when she sets a date then we will talk. So she set a date a few weeks back. Its over 18 months away. She came over and looked at 4 different albums I offer and then we began to discuss what she would like. To sum it up she wants an E shoot, bridal shoot, then the wedding and then a few days later some bride and groom portraits.

So we discuss price. I quote her $2000 and that will include the $450 album (my cost) she wants. She tells me that she will talk it over with him and get back to me. So a week later she calls me and tells me that they can not afford more than $1000 on the photos and they can live with out the high end album and the E shoot. So I crunch some numbers and tell her that the lowest I can go is $1200. So sounding ticked off she tells me that she will let me know something.

That night I get a call from my mother asking me why I quoted her friend so high for her wedding. I told her that I was in the business of making $$ and not in the keeping friends of the family happy business. She says she understands. So a week later the lady calls me back and ask what I will just shoot her wedding for and put the images on a dvd for. I break down and say $1000 just because maybe she will change her mind in the future and want an album or something and can raise the price then.

Guess what. Same old story. We cant afford $1000. The most we can do now is $800. I tell her that its not worth my time and the 2 hour drive to the place she is getting married at for $800. She gets ticked off and hangs up. So this morning I get a call from her and she says that she found a guy on Craig's list that will do it and make her a "book" and DVD for $450 and she wanted to give me one more chance to get her business by beating his price. I laughed and told her to have a nice wedding and then hung up.

The thing that gets me is that with 18 months to go you think you could save up $2000 for your wedding photos if you cared about them like she sounded. I don't think that $2000 was a lot to ask for 3 shoots a high end Graphistudio album and some nice sized prints. Oh well you can't win them all can you? This is why I am trying to get away from the wedding photo business. There are 8-10 more wedding photographers in my area who are great and it is their main source of income. My main source is sports and events. I set my price and my clients gladly pay. There is too much wanting to haggle in the wedding business.

[Peacefield]

Well, as the old saying goes, everything is negotiable. I guess I had a few reactions to your tale of woe:

- You have to decide if it's more important to maintain your business and profit principles or do a favor for a friend of your mother. Only you and she knows what value to place on that relationship, but I can appreciate how she may feel as though she is now in an awkward situation.
- I don't think it's fair or reasonable to make vaule judgements on how much people can or should pay for weddnig photograhs, not unlike the way you feel it's unfair for her to make judgements as to what photography is worth. Everything is only worth what someone will pay.
- It sounds like you may have been unnecessarily abrupt, especially given that this is a friend of your mother's. While I would have probably taken the same positions, I don't recall ever laughing at or hanging up on a prospective client, espeically not someone who was referred to me by my mom.

Just a few thoughts for what it's worth.

[Oneslowz28]

I feel that even if I would have offered this woman the complete package she originally wanted for $500 that she would have still felt it was too much. I discussed this with my mother and she agreed that I was in the right. She said this woman is the type to never settle on a price if she feels she can squeeze $0.50 more off the cost of something.

I also think its perfectly reasonable to set a price for what I feel that my time and services are worth. That's business you set a price for your services and either they take it or leave it. I did come down on the price twice. I just don't understand why you stated "I don't think it's fair or reasonable to make vaule judgements on how much people can or should pay for weddnig photograhs" When you run a business you have a set price for certain things. Nothing should be fluid. The main point is that she is a friend of the family and not family. Heck I shot my cousins wedding last month and she gladly paid the $1600 I quoted her.

[snyderman]

I agree Oneslowz28--regardless of price, the client would have attempted to beat you down even further until she was sure you weren't making any money.

My other hobby is a paid one--playing guitar and singing in a successful regional show band. We get most of our business from municipal and public and private event sources. Weddings? Forget it! Just not worth the hassle!

And whatever happned to 'it costs what it costs?' And 'here's my price, ball is in your court Mr (or Ms. in this case) customer.' People who sell cars don't let the customer choose his or her price. The car costs what it costs. Buy it or don't buy it. Why should your the price of your service (or any other photographer trying to make a living) be set by the customer?

dave

[form]

Sounds like she ended up going with somebody like me. Car prices get haggled on a regular basis, so that's a bad analogy IMO. I consider myself fortunate that I've never once been haggled with over price, but then I don't charge much so that's probably why.

[snyderman]

Sounds like she ended up going with somebody like me. Car prices get haggled on a regular basis, so that's a bad analogy IMO. I consider myself fortunate that I've never once been haggled with over price, but then I don't charge much so that's probably why.

Not really. Think a BMW dealer will sell you a 7-Series for the price of a Chevy Cobalt? Good luck.

dave

[form]

There's more than a few dollars between the price of the BMW and the Chevy, and therefore a bit of room for price discussion; again that's a terrible comparison.

[burnxkr]

Not really. Think a BMW dealer will sell you a 7-Series for the price of a Chevy Cobalt? Good luck.

dave

Ridiculous quote of the day award !!!!!!

[cory1848]

Not really. Think a BMW dealer will sell you a 7-Series for the price of a Chevy Cobalt? Good luck.

dave

Sure will, take away the interior, the wheels, the engine, any powertrain components, the body, the warranty and the customer service. What you have left is the frame, basically what the DVD disk is....

[SteveInNZ]

If it was a complete stranger, you'd earn $2000 for the same amount of work. Because she's a friend of your mother, she expects the same for $1000 less. So in effect, you're giving her a $1000 wedding gift. That's mighty generous of you.
Is that what she expects the other guests to spend on a gift ?
Were you going to be invited anyway ?
Does she own a 7-series BMW ?

Steve.

[Oneslowz28]

I am glad more see it my way. And to the poster who said that "sounds like she went with someone like me" You would be right if your one of the Sub $500 Craigs list scum that take $$$$ out of the rest of our hands.

Lets play with this Car analogy.

mid end car. $35000
Cheap low end car> $13000

Thats a difference of $22,000 or 62.85%

You can rarely talk a car dealership down more than 3 or 4 thousand on a new car.
$4000 off of $35,000 is $31,000. Thats a discount of about 12%.

My original price was $2000 and I first knocked it down to $1200 for a discount of 40% Then I further increased it to 50% which I though was more than fair for what she wanted. Then she said $800 which would have been a discount of 60% . Lastly she told me that if I wanted her business I would have to beat the $450 price tag the craig's list guy quoted her. @ $450 I would have been knocking off $1550 or 77.5%.

So if I figure my time is worth $120 an hour and just shooting the wedding was 4 hours. That is already $480. Then figure in 6-8 hours of post so add $960 and the new sum is $1440. That's just labor. Not including camera wear and tear $50, then fuel $50, and then the cost of albums and prints $580. That's a total of $2020 not including sales tax. Even just with a dvd and not album and prints the package was worth $1540.

Now add in the 2 hours for E session, 2 hours for bridal session, and 2 more for post wedding portraits and 2-4 hours of post and thats another $1200. Even at the rate I gave her ($2000 for: Esession, Bridal, Ceremony, Post portraits, album, decent sized print package) She was getting a deal. Its not like she is poor.

[Oneslowz28]

If it was a complete stranger, you'd earn $2000 for the same amount of work. Because she's a friend of your mother, she expects the same for $1000 less. So in effect, you're giving her a $1000 wedding gift. That's mighty generous of you.
Is that what she expects the other guests to spend on a gift ?
Were you going to be invited anyway ?
Does she own a 7-series BMW ?

Steve.

No I was not going to be invited. She is my mothers friend, not mine. My mother became friends with her a few years ago playing tennis. No BMW for her but she does have a 08 Suburban.

[cosworth]

Looking at the car analogy, all pictures are worth $750 in 15 years. ;)

That being said you did the right thing. You thinned the herd. She went with what she wanted to afford and sent to CL hell.

Remember the first rule of sales: "The happiest customer pays the most"

[tommyqh]

i think you made the right decision by sticking to your principles.

not sure if this is your living or a part time deal, if it's your living, the decision is based on if you can pay next month's rent or not.

$450 for a photoshoot, wouldn't even get you an album in my area. even at $2k is pretty cheap in my opinion. Good photographers over here run $6k and above for a basic e session & full day of wedding, dvd, and i think general album.

stick to your business model, politely refuse, and wish them on their way to preserve the relationship (and your dignity). haggling will always end up in something bad, as you experienced. if you do it once, others will come, do you really want to deal with these types of clients?

there's always people who will pay for quality.

[cosworth]

You want me to come to your crappy wedding for two days complete with all the BS? $4000 and I'll throw in a decent album.

No? I'd rather stay in bed Saturday morning then.

$2000 is a bargain for a proper photographer around these parts. Problem is there are %200 too many.

[tim]

Sounds like she ended up going with somebody like me. Car prices get haggled on a regular basis, so that's a bad analogy IMO. I consider myself fortunate that I've never once been haggled with over price, but then I don't charge much so that's probably why.

I charge a lot, and i've never been haggled with. In about 2% of times people ask for a discount, I say sorry but I don't discount my work and they always accept that.

[Oneslowz28]

99% of the time I do not get questioned after I state that my prices are firm but every now and then that last 1% shows up. 100% of the time that 1% think that their business is the end all and you owe them something for them coming to you instead of your competition. Like always I stand firm (this time was an exception when I went down to 1200)and that 1% always winds up going with the craig's list , GWC'S or College students who will shoot the wedding or event for pennies on the dollar at what I charge. Normally for a wedding package like this woman wanted I would have charged in the 4-5k range.

I did get an email from her tonight. Here it is

" Hey, would you mind designing my album if I give you the cd from photographer who is going to do my wedding? I liked that album with the clear cover that you showed me. What would it cost us? Thanks"

First off no I am not going to design her an album with some other guys photos. Second the album she is referring to is a 11x14 30 side Graphistudio with the acrylic cover and metallic pages. The album cost me over $400 and if she were to see what I would charge to do this for her she would have a heart attack.

[tim]

Why are you turning away money? I'd reply "Sure, with an appropriate release from your photographer i'd be happy to design you an album. Prices start at $2000". Insert your happy price. I design albums for people who use other photographers from time to time, with the photographers permission, I just don't put my name on the album.

[tommyqh]

Why are you turning away money? I'd reply "Sure, with an appropriate release from your photographer i'd be happy to design you an album. Prices start at $2000". Insert your happy price. I design albums for people who use other photographers from time to time, with the photographers permission, I just don't put my name on the album.

funny as this may be to the rest of us. that might be adding insult to injury to her. :p

[Duncan Frenz]

Why not say you'll do it, but that she should understand that a significant portion of what you initially quoted her was derived from THAT album. Then tell her what it would cost to do it with the appropriate permission from the photographer. Even if you don't get the side job, it might help her understand WHY you cost more than the competition.

[Curtis N]

to the poster who said that "sounds like she went with someone like me" You would be right if your one of the Sub $500 Craigs list scum that take $$$$ out of the rest of our hands.You're kidding yourself. The money was never in your hands to begin with.

No matter what you sell, there will always be someone else who will make it a little worse and sell it a little cheaper. the customer who considers price only is this man's lawful prey. It's called competition. Deal with it.

There will always be people who can't afford a $2,000 wedding photographer. There will always be people who can afford it but decide it's just not worth that much to them.

You're out of line calling people "scum" just because they market a product at a lower price point than you. If you can't convince potential customers that your product is worth more, that's your problem.

[form]

I do indeed post on craigslist, and in many cases my rates are under $500 (I charge hourly). I don't think I take anything away from those who charge more...unless for some reason my product is comparable or better, in which case maybe the ones who charge more but deliver an equal product don't deserve to charge as much as they do. Most people who go with the inexpensive photographer seem unlikely candidates for the more expensive one anyway, since the price is part of what they must find acceptable about any vendor, and many people who choose the budget photographer probably don't want to (or can't) pay a higher one for the same type of service.

I consider my work on the low-middle range of quality, better than most others at my price point, but with lots of room to grow. If you want to charge thousands you had better be providing albums, prints, etc., and/or photos as good as or better than mine. Since I only provide DVD discs, it's easy to make a more complete package than I do, and since I'm far from the best photographer and retoucher in the world, there's plenty of room for improvement. I think it's only fair that those who charge more should also give more.

[shannyD]

i have seen photographers charge an arm and leg.. and sometimes even your first born.. and still not deliver quality photos.. but some people dont know the difference between great photos, and mediocre photos.. some think because they are expensive, then they must be good.

but then you have photographers like form... excellent work! all the way around.
and then you have someone like my wedding photog ( will remain nameless) who sucked sucked sucked.. and i swear if i ever see him again.. im going to beat him with the dvd he had the nerve to give me.

i dont think it matters where a photographer advertises, its free to advertise on craigslist.. less money out of your pocket. and from what i understand you have to pay to advertise else where.

the fact of the matter is.. you stuck to your guns, and you feel your time is worth more than what she was willing to pay.

her loss..

charles you have some beautiful work... so if your time is worth what you charge.. then stick to it.

shan

[Peacefield]

"I don't think it's fair or reasonable to make vaule judgements on how much people can or should pay for weddnig photograhs" When you run a business you have a set price for certain things. Nothing should be fluid. The main point is that she is a friend of the family and not family. Heck I shot my cousins wedding last month and she gladly paid the $1600 I quoted her.

I believe I'm being misunderstood. I encourage you to stand by your prices and appropriately value your time and skill, as I and I'm sure most of us all do. I don't negotiate price at all except for the occasional favor for a friend.

That said, if someone wanted to pay only $500, I would never make disparaging guesses about her or her intent because can't/won't save up $2000 over 18 months. It's unlikely you really know anything about her, her finances, and what she values.

To jump back to the car analogy, I love cars; always have since I was a child. I was more than happy to drop the $'s to purchase a Z4 a few years ago. To my dad, however, automobiles are just an appliance that gets him where he wants to go. He gets just as much satisfaction out of his old Civic as I do from my roadster. Neither of us are right or wrong, we just value these things differently.

So she's down at the $500 level for a photographer. Maybe that's all she can afford. Maybe that's all she values photography at and can be satisfied with $500 results. In that case, she (and millions more like her) clearly are not and will not be our customers. What's the big deal? Why the hostility towards your mom's friend? Does the owner of the BMW dealership really view those who buy Hondas as ignorant and uninformed or just consumers pursuing a different segment of the market based on their unique needs.

My only point was to be understanding and tolerant of the full breadth of the market. Your price is your price. If she wants you to come down, you can either accept as a favor to your mom or direct her to the wannabes on CL. I guess I don't see a reason for all the indignation.

[stathunter]

Doing work for family or friends is typically a recipe for disaster. When approached by them I tell them where my prices start and say for the work I do I am unable to flex much and I certainly understand if I my prices are not in line with what you are looking for. Surprisingly the large percentage of the time they book me-- I ALWAYS try to talk them out-- and set up "my rules" ahead of time-- and if they want to book me they understand the rules.

Now, dealing with those that are getting pricing from Craigslist is a different animal. I have been in this business a while and can typically tell when a bride has been shopping at Craigslist-- I am pretty direct and let them know where my prices start. Then when they tell me it is too expensive --- I wish them the absolute best in their upcoming wedding.

I used to flex on price a lot-- I do not do that anymore. When I flexed I would show up to the wedding after I gave them a huge discount because they gave me a sad story-- then find they were having it at an expensive location and spent 10K on alcohol and really feel like I was a sucker. So no more of that for me. I will be nice and throw in a few prints but I hold to my pricing.

[Peacefield]

When I speak to those who quote CL prices, I clearly (but politely and professionally) let the couple know that the people who lowball on CL are neither my competitors nor peers. I'll offer a few brief comments to help them understand the difference in quality, sometimes even borrow that tired old car analogy, and let them make up their minds.

The reality is that, if we're having a face-to-face meeting, it's because they've already been to my site, seen my work as well as my posted prices, and they clearly want me to be their photographer. So if it takes a little coddling to help them over the fence, that's time well spent on my part.

[Oneslowz28]

I guess I need to go back and retract my previous statement about "CL scum". I was speaking from my experience with some of the CL advertisers from this area. Most of them are scum who boast about undercutting the competition so severely that we can not compete. They are usually the ones shooting with outdated gear (by this I mean pre D50 and 20D stuff) and are getting their albums from TAP / Flora and their prints done at wal-mart. They are usually the weekend warriors who work without a valid business license and sales tax license. I guess I hold a grudge because I had a conversation with one of these guys who bragged about taking business from another photographer and I before he knew who I was. His actual words were "I don't care if I have to do the wedding for cost, as long as I take the business away from the big guys"

Either way I will still stay in business because most of my income does not come from weddings. Sports, real estate and non wedding events pay my bills. I mean I tried the wedding thing full time and there is just way too much pressure. I would rather go toe to toe with Mike Tyson than deal with bridezillas and their mothers every weekend. Weddings are just a nice way to pad the bottom line.

So if I offended anyone I do apologize. I was a little heated when I made this post and when I replied the first time.

[Peacefield]

No offense here (it takes an awful lot to offend me). And I agree with you re: the CL wannabees who undercut professionals. But I suppose every industry has that.

I was mostly responding to your reaction to your mom's friend. And I get the frustration because it wasn't just haggling, it was repeated haggling. What I don't get (and maybe it's just me) is your reaction to it. So she haggles. So she's looking for a better deal than she desrves. There's no reason not to end the discussion on business priciples, but I would encourage you to do it in a more professional and civil way (I'm thinking about your earlier comments about laughing at her and hanging up). I suspect there was no saving her, but I have had some prospects who seemed like they were ready to head down this road. With a little charm and the right message from me, I turned a few of them into happy clients. It's a tough business; but don't let it get to you.

[anthony11]

It sounds like you may have been unnecessarily abrupt, especially given that this is a friend of your mother's. While I would have probably taken the same positions, I don't recall ever laughing at or hanging up on a prospective client, espeically not someone who was referred to me by my mom.
Agreed. I would have told her that the price you offered her was already significantly discounted from what your usual prices that you charge people who aren't friends of the family, and that to go any lower would be below cost for you.

FWIW, for my second (first real) wedding I hired a young PJ photographer who gave me all his shots on DVD-R, no prints, for $1500. This was about 11 months ago. We met him at the meetup I organize. Between the time we agreed on price and sat down to talk details, he lost *all* his gear in a house fire and had to replace it with insurance money. He used a 1DmkII and 40D.

[JWright]

I'm beginning to get a bit tired of these threads started by someone whining about how a potential customer "undervalued" their photography. Well, there's always going to be someone who thinks you charge too much. Get over it and move on...

[S.Horton]

My in-laws think that all hands-on labor should be paid for, and professional services are favors. They really believe that, because that's all they know.

I think you may have encountered someone like that w/r/t photography.

So, I think that if you asked the bride whether or not she'd purchase the world's cheapest car, I'll bet she'd say no, because it is something that she can understand.