Graphics card advice

[mapollo]

With no knowledge what so ever I am attempting to assemble the components for a PC for mainly Photoshop and Rawshooter work. It will also be used for Internet and copying DVD's & CD's etc. Little or no gaming.

So far I have...

AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Winchester 90nm (Socket 939)
Gigabyte K8NF-9 nForce4 (Socket 939) PCI Express Motherboard (MB-032-GI)
1gb RAM (not sure what make or speed yet)
Antec case (not sure which yet)
Hard drive... I want to make do initally with the 80 gig Western Digi that I have already. The first upgrade would be SATA Hard Drives.

I have no idea where to start with the Graphics Card. Obviously I don't game so it doesn't have to be high end but it needs to perform well as far as Digital Imaging goes.
The monitor will be 19" CRT Aperture grille.

I would appreciate ideas re graphics card.... Thanks David...

[tim]

The advice I received was to get a cheap Matrox card, and get one with a DVI out if you plan to upgrade to a flat panel later.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I have no idea where to start with the Graphics Card. Obviously I don't game so it doesn't have to be high end but it needs to perform well as far as Digital Imaging goes.
The monitor will be 19" CRT Aperture grille.


Tim's advice above is particularly appropriate for your case,. as it turns out the very best cards for 2D applications like photoshop.. are not very good for games,. and vice versa.

The best card for the job at hand is Matrox. You can get a new one.. but if you can find a low budget G400 or G450 in old stock or refurb/system pull you'll save a lot and get all the benifits.

[mapollo]

Is this the one...

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=5690&source=Kelkoo

If so am I right in assuming the "Interface Type = PCI" means it's compatable with the Gigabyte motherboard I suggested (PCI Express).

[CyberDyneSystems]

PCI express is a very new interface,. and I do not think you can use Standard PCI cards in them..

the Card you list above would be best in an AGP formfactor,. but I do not think that PCI Express Mobos tend to have an AGP slot....

For a PCI Express board you'll need the very latest bleeding edge video card...

Matrox has only recently released PCI E cards,..

Here's one;
http://www.matrox.com/mga/workstation/digital_design/news/press_rel/2005/millennium_p650_pcie.cfm

I noticed the Lb sign in your link... so I'm assuming UK,

http://www.matrox.com/mga/workstation/digital_design/buy_design/eur_mideast_afr/uk/mailuk.cfm

[mapollo]

Tim,
Is this the graphics card that Kev was trying to steer you towards when choosing your Graphics card recently.

http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=306876&cks=ASS&assoc=D8029637-0DDA-48DA-9BA1-03B0D58EDEA7

In this thread

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=451056#post451056

[4nR]

photoshop doesnt utilize graphics cards, its more cpu dependent. since you have a rather sweet pc setup, i'd suggest a nvidia 6600 pci express. its fast in case you want to play any of the latest games, and should tide you over for a few years, in addition to having good 2d image quality. here's a link to newegg, who imo have the best shipping.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=property&DEPA=1

[tim]

Tim,
Is this the graphics card that Kev was trying to steer you towards when choosing your Graphics card recently.

http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=306876&cks=ASS&assoc=D8029637-0DDA-48DA-9BA1-03B0D58EDEA7

In this thread

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=451056#post451056

I've no idea, I can't remember sorry. He recommended overclocking his video card, and I remember seeing a more recent post that it got fried, so I don't recommend that.

For PS you don't need a great 3D card, just get a cheaper Matrox like CDS said.

[cjm]

Any Video(graphics) card is better then a intergrated Video card. But try to get a 256 MB so it will save you on ram use.

[4nR]

video card ram is only used to that extent on 3d accelerated video games and other programs that use the vid card. programs like photoshop and other general photo programs dont use it. you should be fine with a 128 (thats the 'norm' video card memory these days) and i wouldnt suggest getting that geforce turbocache, it basically uses your system memory instead of having its own. just buy as much regular ram as possible (1 gig is a good start) and your 3000+ should be good (until the dual processors come out :D ). also, as for hard drive usage, if youre using primarily to store and process pics, i would suggest buying a second 80 gig hd to set up raid 1, which your motherboard should support natively.

[Citizensmith]

For that motherboard you will want PC3200 RAM. And get two 512Mb sticks as it supports dual channel memory. Just make sure both are identical. The manual will tell you what slots to install in to enable dual channel.

The motherboard does not have an AGP slot so you will have to get a PCIe graphics card.

It has issues with the A01 and A02 bios revisions. If it ships with either of these grab A03 from the Gigabyte site.

The board will actually handle RAID on PATA drives (either 0, 1, 0+1, or JBOD) so I wouldn't bother with SATA drives. In current computers the bandwidth on a PATA drive isn't a bottleneck anyway so the slim increase from SATA isn't yet that big a deal.

As a previous poster said, avoid Turbocache (found on some GF6200s)/Hypermemory (found on some x300s) version of graphics cards as that is a marketing term for 'we steal your system memory'. Other than that, if you really really don't want anything to do with 3D stuff then any card will do. My Dell server has 2Mb of onboard video RAM and I've never has a problem with it!

[CyberDyneSystems]

Much of what is being said here is half right...

That is that 3D video cards with boatloads of RAM and gaming performance will not improve your Photoshop environment one iota.

But this does not mean that all cards are created equal where 2D and photoshop are concerned.

Indeed,. the advances that Matrox made in there PCI Millenium cards nearly ten years ago have yet to be equaled by any other consumer level card. Matrox's overall image quality has allways been and remains to this day,. far ahead of the rest of the pack.

I have a 128MB Nvidia Geforce 4 TI 4600 in one PC but the PC that makes my Sony FW900 24" Aperure Grill CRT look best is a Matrox,. indeed a lowly 8MB PCI Matrox makes that monitor look better. Also the RamDac gets you higher refresh rates. Filters like Gusian Blur in PS do use the 2D acceleration that cards use,. and none better than the Matrox.

To back it up here's a small sampling of the common knowledge that has been historic to graphics pros in the know for a decade.

http://www.computerpoweruser.com/editorial/article.asp?article=articles%2Farchive%2Fc0206%2F0 6c06%2F06c06%2Easp&articleid=12696&guid=8DBD649F74F0444FA2042778B8A77205&searchtype=0&WordList=MATROX&bJumpTo=True#MATROX
Skip to the bottom of the article....

http://www.computerpoweruser.com/editorial/article.asp?article=articles%2Fhardware%2F2002%2Fh 0504%2F09h04%2Easp&articleid=17629&guid=8DBD649F74F0444FA2042778B8A77205&searchtype=0&WordList=MATROX&bJumpTo=True
http://www.computerpoweruser.com/editorial/article.asp?article=articles%2Farchive%2Fc0301%2F3 4c01%2F34c01%2Easp&articleid=13983&guid=8DBD649F74F0444FA2042778B8A77205&searchtype=0&WordList=MATROX&bJumpTo=True
http://www.computerpoweruser.com/editorial/article.asp?article=articles%2Fhardware%2F2001%2Fh 0411%2F52h11%2Easp&articleid=11749&guid=8DBD649F74F0444FA2042778B8A77205&searchtype=0&WordList=MATROX&bJumpTo=True
http://reviews.cnet.com/Matrox_Millennium_G550_AGP_4x_32_MB/4852-8899_7-6969651.html?ord=creationDate+asc
http://tech-report.com/reviews/2003q3/matrox-p750/index.x?pg=1
http://ecoustics.audioreview.com/pscVideoGameReview/PCGaming+Hardware/Video+Cards/Millenium,G400/PRD_82155_1469crx.aspx

And one of the last times this topic went around;
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31709

[4nR]

in response to the above post, i'd have to agree with the fact that matrox did make cards with excellent 2d. however, i'd also venture to say that both of the major video card makers, nvidia and ati, have both caught up in image quality, and both also offer better driver support and waaaaay superior 3d acceleration. anyway, the 2d image quality will not matter at all if your monitor isnt good enough. i dont know if youre going to buy a new monitor as well, but if you are, that should be your #1 priority above all else (pixel pitch, color reproduction especially). ram, and cpu just make editing faster, but the monitor will determine how good the image quality really is as well as how accurately it will reproduce the image.

[4nR]

Also, i happened to run across this page just now. if you have the money to blow on a dual opteron setup, this shows you what it can do with digital image processing:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/colfax_dual_opteron/default.asp

[chtgrubbs]

I am in the planning stages of building an almost identical box. One card which I have read high recommedations for for 2D imaging is the Sapphire Radeon X300E which is for PCI-Express. Or you could use the Gigabyte MOBO which uses the nForce 3 chipset and AGP video input if you want to go with a Matrox card.

[Rob612]

For that type of work, go with Matrox and you'll never go wrong. "Nobody has ever been fired for buying Matrox" :D :D

[mapollo]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my original question.

So this is how my novice "eye" sees things re graphics card.Please feel free to correct me if in your opinion I have it wrong..

First the matrox card. It would give me excellent image quality I'm sure and it would be very cheap but it seems I would have to take a step backwards with my motherboard. Keeping with PCI express gives me a better chance to upgrade later.

So a 6600 series card. I can pick up a nvidia 6200 series cardmuch cheaper I think . I don't do gaming but it gives me the option if I ever do (or more likely my 6 year old does). I'm thinking being a non gamer I wouldn't notice the difference. It needs to be 128mb and NOT Turbocache/Hypermemory. If it costs me about £50 it's not a lot to write of if my son games has he gets older and I need to u/g. Have I got this right?

I am going to get a new 19" CRT aperture grill monitor so I'm pretty sure that it will be an improvement over the Generic (bandy)17" Shadow mask display I have been sat in front of for the last five years.

[4nR]

if you want to future proof your computer for a few years at least, you should get a pci express motherboard. matrox hasnt come up with anything good recently (parhelia was just awful) and to my knowledge they dont offer any pci ex cards, but if they do and its 2d is good as well, you can just buy it then. also, what kind of monitor are you getting? brand name/model? having a flat screen is a plus too, although its not really that important.

[mapollo]

Aperture Grill monitors 19" seem hard to find in the UK. I'm looking at Philips Brilliance 109P40 model.

[dbump]

I've been following this thread--I'm also evaluating the Matrox vs Nvidia (I can't find a 'cheap' Matrox 450 from a reliable vendor--they seem to hover in the $90 range). However, I'm also wondering about display choice, which has been raised several times here.
I'm thinking about an LCD flat panel. I know CRTs are dirt cheap by comparison, but cost aside, are there concerns with LCDs in general, or with specific types? Any good FAQs out there on PS, colorspace and LCDs? Is one display tech inherently better than the other for static photo work (I know video frame rate can be a concern with LCDs)?

Edit:
I just found this thread:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=65295&highlight=LCD
Still working my way through it and the sub-links, but it looks great.
(Who me, search before I post? :slaps wrist)

[Citizensmith]

I am in the planning stages of building an almost identical box. One card which I have read high recommedations for for 2D imaging is the Sapphire Radeon X300E which is for PCI-Express.

The E in x300E signifies HYPERMEMORY!!! Hypermemory sounds really cool but is actually a nice way of saying this card really sucks and will drag down any computer its plugged into. Anyone who told you the X300E is good for anything either clueless or a salesman. It is no better than onboard video as it works the same way.

Or you could use the Gigabyte MOBO which uses the nForce 3 chipset and AGP video input if you want to go with a Matrox card.

Gigabyte is one of many motherboard manufacturers. They make many motherboards. Some come with the nForce3 chipset. Some nForce3 chipsets include onboard video (effectively a GeForce MX400). Matrox cards are available in either PCIe or AGP.

For 2D use there really isn't much wrong with onboard video although you should make sure you have plenty of system RAM. Thing is an entry level GPU is so cheap it'd be a pity to retard the computer by going onboard.

[CyberDyneSystems]

After I posted a link to the PCI express Matrox Card.. like 4 people posted that Matrox doesn't make a PCI express card ???

again
http://www.matrox.com/mga/workstation/digital_design/news/press_rel/2005/millennium_p650_pcie.cfm
and
http://shopmatrox.com/usa/products/datasheet.asp?ID=762

4nr your assesment that Matrox hasn't made a decent offering recently,. and that Parhelia is "just awfull" is based on a 3D mindset.. any card Matrox has made before or since the Parhelia will do 2D better than anything ATI or Nvidia has to offer. This has been verified in dozens of tests,. and your personal assertion to the contrary has no founding or factual basis to back it up.

Yes Nvidia and ATI will DESTROY Matrox in 3D

Likewise,. Matrox will mop the floor with ATI and Nvidia in 2D apps like PSCS.

"Matrox has a well-known reputation for graphics boards that produce outstanding image and picture quality. The Parhelia continues that tradition with exceptional performance, even at the very highest 2048 x 1536 resolutions. Sharpness, color and gray-scale accuracy were nearly perfect, with the Matrox Parhelia providing the very best image quality available," says Dr. Raymond Soneira, president of DisplayMate Technologies. "After extensive testing, we awarded Matrox three DisplayMate Best Video Hardware Guide awards. The Parhelia performed superbly well in the categories of CRT analog output, multiple monitor analog outputs and digital DVI outputs. As a result, DisplayMate recommends the Matrox Parhelia as a Reference Standard for graphics card performance."

The worldwide leader in video diagnostics, DisplayMate Technologies uses their recognized expertise in evaluating image quality for a variety of devices and peripherals, including displays and graphics cards. For graphics cards, specific attention is given to the quality of the output signal, which is one of the most important factors in determining the quality of the displayed colors on the screen. DisplayMate tools are used by over 150 publications in 45 countries for editorial testing and reviewing of video hardware

[chtgrubbs]

Which Matrox cards are available in PCI? As far as I can tell from their website the only one is the Parhelia 256PCI, at $700.

[dbump]

If you look at the second Link Andy posted, and hit the Graphics Cards menu on the left, then G-Series, you'll see a G450 that's PCI. Unless you mean PCI-E, in which case the link takes you directly to a PCI-E card.

[Rob612]

Yes Nvidia and ATI will DESTROY Matrox in 3D

Likewise,. Matrox will mop the floor with ATI and Nvidia in 2D apps like PSCS.



Ditto on that !

[Avalonthas]

Buy the latest gaming computer configuration computer and just dont buy it with a graphics/sound card. buy a cheap 2D matrox card and ur set.

[Citizensmith]

But Matrox don't make a PCIe card and they suck at 3D.

Just kidding.

However, how does the Matrox compare against non-gaming offerings from Nvidia and such? Things like the Quaddro range that are specifically targetted at 2D application users.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Quadro are targeted at 3D content creation... OpenGL etc... StudioMAX, Lightwave,. are they not?

And that's still a good question. I've allways wondered. But man talk about pricey!

[Citizensmith]

I checked the Nvidia web site. Among other variants they have Quadro FX aimed at 3D content and Quadro NVS aimed at 2D. Still doesn't answer the question. :)

[Avalonthas]

The Quadro line for 2D hasnt yet matched the quality u will find from a matrox.

If ur looking for a cheap matrox, theres always plenty on ebay

[Avalonthas]

Here is a Matrox Millennium G550 Dual-Head Video Card, AGP, 32 megs of ram

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40160&item=5189456730&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

only 30 bucks. not bad

[passenger7]

I'm a Apple (Mac G4) user so there's a lot in your post that's in a foreign language to me...but AGP cards are Cross Platform.

I'm using a ATI Radeon 9000. It can drive either a flat panel or a CRT and has 128 MB for each, for a total of 256 MB. I'm using a Apple Cinema Display, the "small" one; "small in quotation marks. None of the Cinema displays are actually "small"

I have been led to understand that the card is a bit of overkill, that I could have gotten away with 64 MB but I'm not sure about that... However the card easily drives the Cinema display at 1600 x 1000 resolution and 32 bit color. And of course the card was reduced in price, having been replaced by an even larger card. (I got the card from Other World Computing, which is primarily Mac oriented. But they do have closeouts so it's a good place to look for cross platform stuff. Again, a good outfit! I'm using one of their House Brand (Mercury) accelerator cards, having just taken my 786 MHz mac out to 1.47 GHz. It took longer to read the instructions than to do the switch!)

The Apple Cinema is without doubt the best display I've ever used! It's expensive but well worth it if you edit photographs. It is totally unforgiving and because it has a different aspect ratio, wider than high, it's easier to work with.

Again, I use Mac but the rules never change. You cannot have too much RAM! I'm running 3 Gigs, the max at times I'd like more... (Go to 18004MEMORY for your memory. I've used them for years and never had any problem with their product or service. I'm also using one of their cards in my camera).

From my perspective, since the speed of the hard drives and all that is only relevant when you're loading data into RAM, I always put my money toward more Ram and treat the HDD as a poor relation. Depending of course, I use Adobe's Elements 3 (with some added plug ins) and Noise Ninja. Sometimes a file might be running at 50 Meg or more. With my sloppy work habits, I'll have several open at once. I've got a Scratch Disc, a separate HDD, but that only kicks in when I've used up a gig of RAM.

[Mathiau]

Any Video(graphics) card is better then a intergrated Video card. But try to get a 256 MB so it will save you on ram use.


k

some thing's

1. No, you can not use PCI cards in a PCIe slot
2. Matrox no longer really has the "2D" market but the nuts like it did, any ati or nvidia card will give you the same performance and you can get it in PCIe, i think most people if you sat them down in front of 2 comps and asked which was what, they wouldnt know.
3. 256mb of ram wont matter since your apps dont use the video card at all
4. you can get low end PCIe cards and i SUGGEST you get a mobo with a PCIe slot - AGP is "dead", why buy dead technology.
5. Get a card with DVI for an LCD.
6. Buy soc ket AM2, 939 is also more or less a "dieing" technology, AM2 is not much more, if at all, expensice as a socket 939 system.



The board will actually handle RAID on PATA drives (either 0, 1, 0+1, or JBOD) so I wouldn't bother with SATA drives. In current computers the bandwidth on a PATA drive isn't a bottleneck anyway so the slim increase from SATA isn't yet that big a deal.


SATA drives are almost the same price these days as IDE, also less messy cables to deal with, and the newer SATA seagte 7200.10 drives perform better then any IDE drives out there, you could even consider a 74G raptor 10k RPM SATA drive if you want some real speed.


I'm using a ATI Radeon 9000. It can drive either a flat panel or a CRT and has 128 MB for each, for a total of 256 MB. I'm using a Apple Cinema Display, the "small" one; "small in quotation marks. None of the Cinema displays are actually "small"


if the card has 256mb of ram it does not split the ram to 128mb to each monitor, video ram is used to cache textures and other items, more so in 3D mode, that card isnt powerful enough to ever use 256mb of ram basically, but it will do fine for any 2D applications and such.


I am checking out those matrox links, and i will stick to, sit you down in front of 2 identical system, except the vid card, and you wont be able to tell.



Lastly, have you considered AMD dual core solutions, since they have DROPPED madly in price... i think their cheapest one is $150 ?

AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core Processor 3800+ Socket AM2 - $150 US
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80721-8

What is your budget ?

P.S - shop www.zipzoomfly.com - less price gouging then newegg.com and free Fedex 3 day shipping on most everything. (or add 2 day for $1.99)

[Mathiau]

Spec'd out this system:


AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core Processor 3800+ Socket AM2 (89W) Retail ***Free Shipping***

Asus M2N-E nForce 570 Ultra Sempron/Athlon 64(FX)(X2) SktAM2 DDR2 ATX Motherboard w/Audio, Gigabit LAN, RAID/Serial ATA Retail ***Free Shipping***

Corsair TWIN2X1024A-6400 1GB Kit DDR2-800 XMS2-6400 Xtreme Performance Memory

XFX GeForce 6500 PCI Express 128MB

Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3200820AS 200GB Serial ATA

Subtotal: $518.38

subtract $80 if you dont want the harddrive.


everything has free 3 day shipping as well. Toss in another $100 for a new case and decent power supply and you have a system that would kick the crap out of the one you speced out.

[condyk]

He did spec his out in April 2005 tho ;-)

That is a useful list of gear tho'. Wish I'd had that when I spec'd out mine last week Would have saved me a lot of time.

[Mathiau]

ahahahah!


i guess i should of noticed that..LOL just saw the post figured it was new.

sorry condyk i didnt do that in your post :(

do you still have warrenty on your cpu ? see if you can send it back and change for a x2 ?

[condyk]

do you still have warrenty on your cpu ? see if you can send it back and change for a x2 ?

It is a x2 ;-)

[Mathiau]

well in that case, you must be enjoying it :)

[condyk]

Ah my friend ... 'tis not yet built. I am awaiting arrival of the case. Hoping it is here today sometime so I can do it on Saturday. Maybe the extra memery and vid card will be here today as well, tho' more likely Monday. Looking forward to loading up my first big TIFF's in CS2 ;-)

[Reefbone]

All this talk about cheap video cards makes we want to stop gaming. I was on the edge of buying a $300 plus vid card not too long ago. I mostly have stopped playing since spending all my time with CS2

[Mathiau]

i still game, why i got a $340 vid card at the time :D x1900 XT :D and i love ittttttttttt