Copyright For Future Protection

[cargo123]

I am a new photographer that took pictures at a local event. The local newspaper asked for some pictures. I gave the pictures to them really looking to get my pictures published. They are going to use one of them on Friday. I gave them a CD with 13 pictures and a note giving him permission to use them. One of the sponsors went to the newspaper and told them I gave them permission to get the CD from them. I know this company will not by pictures from me from this event now they took the CD. The promotion company that hired me picked up the CD from them today.

My mistake was I did not know what kind of copyright note to put on the disk. Are there any websites that can advise on this.



Thanks,



Mike

[defordphoto]

http://www.copyright.gov/

[GerryDavid]

If the sponsor uses any of the pictures without your permission, you could probably file a lawsuit against them.

If the pictures were registered with the copyright office, you will be better protected. Its only like $30 to do so as well, not very expensive if you think about it, since you can register all your pictures in one shot apperantly.

And you probably shouldnt give them open reign like that, if they wanted to use a picture you should have them send paperwork to you or you send to them to use it, even if its free. And say its a one time use. This way if they want to use it again later you can make them pay for it. Also you shouldnt do it for free since it will make it harder for you to charge money for it later, and hurt those that tries to make a living off of this. Who will pay if there are others willing to do it for free.

*note* the above is just from what ive read around, I dont have personal experience with this yet. I havent come accross anything that the papers would be interested in publishing. Hehe, perhaps I should get a police scanner.

[IndyJeff]

Mike make another CD of all images from the event and register them with the copyright office ASAP like today!!!!!!

Wait until you get registration confirmation then contact a IP attorney in your area. In the meantime, keep an eye out for any of them images. Go looking for them, on websites, billboards, newspaper ads etc, anywhere. Get any kind of eveidence you can give to the attorney.

They have stolen your property, plain and simple. If they came to your job and asked for your car keys you gave your boss to hold for you, you wouldn't just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well", would you?

Treat a thief like a thief, with the proper laws to deal with their kind.

[cargo123]

Thanks Jim. As a new photographer do you think I have a legal position since they did not have written or verbal permission to obtain the disk. I have a feeling they will use it for their website, and have been told they want some of the pictures for a Budweiser Banner. I am sending the owner an email requesting $20 per picture for infinging on my copyright. What's your thought

[IndyJeff]

After re-reading your post, did this promotion company hire you to take the images for them and then hand them over? Or did you do this to sell the images and the event promoter gave you the access?

If you were acting as an employee for the event company, you may fall under the work for hire clause. If that's the case, you have no concern in the matter as your not the copyright holder.

[GerryDavid]

You could make serious money if Budweiser was to use them, thousands or more. If they use your images with out your permission and you registered them, you could sue them for alot more than $20 per picture I believe.

[IndyJeff]

Thanks Jim. As a new photographer do you think I have a legal position since they did not have written or verbal permission to obtain the disk. I have a feeling they will use it for their website, and have been told they want some of the pictures for a Budweiser Banner. I am sending the owner an email requesting $20 per picture for infinging on my copyright. What's your thought


DON'T SEND THEM ANYTHING WITH A PRICE ON IT

Contact an attorney in the morning.

[cargo123]

This was my first event, so I wasn't prepared to offer paperwork or costs. It was a great opportunity. I understand about the free thing. My wife is all over that one. This is a great forum that has helped me to learn fast. How would I find a copywrite office in Denver, Colorado?
thanks for the great points and suggestions.
Mike

[IndyJeff]

IP Attorney (http://www.lld-law.com/)

That is a firm which handles copyrights. their phone number is at the bottom of the page. Call em.


Another thing which you might consider, if they use any of those images in an ad, do you have a release from anyone appearing in the ad? Get ready for a lawsuit of someone is smart.

If you take my picture at an event and then it comes out in an ad, I'll sue you till your balls are blue.

[cargo123]

The Promotion Company hired me to get shots of the entertainers and the crowd." My sister-in-law works for the promotion company and hired me. Our agreement would be that I would be able to sell pictures to sponsors, audience members, and they would use some to promote the next concert. I took pictures at a VIP event on Friday, and of the concert on Saturday. I have a new Canon 20D. This was a great opportunity to try my f2.8 70-200 mm lens and f1.8 50 mm lens. I have sold individual 8x10 and 5x7s. This particular sponsor was going to buy 100 8x10s with the performers. I am sure I won't see those in the future.

[IndyJeff]

The Promotion Company hired me to get shots of the entertainers and the crowd." My sister-in-law works for the promotion company and hired me. Our agreement would be that I would be able to sell pictures to sponsors, audience members, and they would use some to promote the next concert. I took pictures at a VIP event on Friday, and of the concert on Saturday. I have a new Canon 20D. This was a great opportunity to try my f2.8 70-200 mm lens and f1.8 50 mm lens. I have sold individual 8x10 and 5x7s. This particular sponsor was going to buy 100 8x10s with the performers. I am sure I won't see those in the future.

Contact the attorney to see what you need to do to establish ownership of the images and disspell any rumor of WFH.

[mjordan]

Indy, if it was held at a public event where there was no expectation of privacy, yes you can sue (an't America great) but you probably wouldn't win. You might be able to intimdate the hell out of a poor photographer that didn't know the law though. ;)

Mike, follow the advice and get your images to the copyright office right away. You can still sue even if they aren't copyrighted and you can still win the same amount regardless, but the big benifit to having them registered is that if you sue and win, the infringing party get to pay court costs and legal fees. If you don't have them registered, then it comes out of pocket... and it an't cheap. I know, I was infringed on by a woman worth millions and I couldn't sue her because I didn't have the money to even start the process, even though there was a good chance (nothing is 100%) I would win.

The sticker to this is that you have to have them registered [b]BEFORE you are infringed upon. Just them having the images is not infringement. But if they use them (especially for commercial purposes), then that is infringement and you have to be registed before that event happens or registering them won't help you this time. If you do sue, the first thing the IP lawyer is going to ask is if they are registered. If they aren't, they won't be interested in a small case like this or else they are going to want a lot of money up front before they start.

To register your images, put all of them on a CD. Print off the VA Short Form from the copyright web site listed above, fill it out, put the CD, form and $30 into an envelope and send it Delivery Conformation by USPS. The day it arrives is the day your registration will be effective, even though it will be about 6 months before you get the certificate of registration from them. For legal purposes the day they get it is the day you are covered. And the copyright office will expidite registration paperwork at the request of a court action as well should you need the actual proof that you registered.

Do it. If the other party assumes that you don't have them registered and know that when you find out how much it will cost to sue them, they probably feel pretty safe. So get them registered and any other images you have (you can put as many as you can fit on a CD under the same form and $30) and send it in.

Mike

[defordphoto]

Thanks Jim. As a new photographer do you think I have a legal position since they did not have written or verbal permission to obtain the disk. I have a feeling they will use it for their website, and have been told they want some of the pictures for a Budweiser Banner. I am sending the owner an email requesting $20 per picture for infinging on my copyright. What's your thought

Without registering your photos you have little chance of winning a major lawsuit. If all you're asking is 20-bucks-a-shot then you might get that as a shut-up-the-photographer payment.

I would NOT send that letter! You'll work youself into a corner.

[IndyJeff]

Indy, if it was held at a public event where there was no expectation of privacy, yes you can sue (an't America great) but you probably wouldn't win. You might be able to intimdate the hell out of a poor photographer that didn't know the law though.

What are you talking about?

So let me see if I am understanding you correctly. A person is at this public event. A photographer, in this case cargo123, takes a shot that this person happens to be in.

I have a feeling they will use it for their website, and have been told they want some of the pictures for a Budweiser Banner.

Now this company will use this image in an advertising banner and you think there is no problem?

You better check your law books there F. Lee, otherwise if you practice what your preaching, your gonna find yourself in the court house with a huge settlement to be paid.

[mjordan]

Indy, I take pictures at public events all the time. Next time I see you at one, I'll be glad to take your picture and you can see what you can do about it. ;)

Why do you think that movies and tv and news, etc., can use real footage from people on the street or at the zoo or circus or any other public events? You can bet they didn't get releases from all the people you see walking around. Sometimes they are extras, but a lot of times they are real people who had no idea they were going to end up on tv.

But as I said, anyone can sue for anything they want to in the US. You don't always win, sometimes you win when you shouldn't. It's all about how much money you have for your lawyer.

Mike

[IndyJeff]

And how many times do you use those images in an ad?

That is the premise of what cargo said his photos may be used for. Try using someones image in an ad and see what happens.

I don't give a rats ass about how many pictures you take of public events. You use someones image in an ad without their release and you may very well get your ass sued from here to kingdom come.

Obviously you don't have a clue as to the difference between editorial and commercial use. Try a google search on Model release and read up a bit.



You see, an individuals right to control and be compensated for the use of thier image trumps your rights to snap away with your camera.

Next time I see you at one, I'll be glad to take your picture and you can see what you can do about it.

Oh I would love to have you snap a shot of me and sell it to someone for a commercial use. Then you would see just what I can do about it. Heck I can always use the extra cash.

[IndyJeff]

model release 101 (http://www.pdnedu.com/pdnedu/resources/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000694456)


Photographers have rights of free expression, but the privacy rights of their subjects prevail when the pictures appear in a commercial context.

[reidr]

Yep, IndyJeff is right... Remember Russell Christoff and his 15.6 million dollar settlement with the Nestle company over his picture on a coffee label... This is just a recent example of commercial usage of a photo without permission or release.

[jimsolt]

Indy, I take pictures at public events all the time. Next time I see you at one, I'll be glad to take your picture and you can see what you can do about it. ;)

Why do you think that movies and tv and news, etc., can use real footage from people on the street or at the zoo or circus or any other public events? You can bet they didn't get releases from all the people you see walking around. Sometimes they are extras, but a lot of times they are real people who had no idea they were going to end up on tv.

But as I said, anyone can sue for anything they want to in the US. You don't always win, sometimes you win when you shouldn't. It's all about how much money you have for your lawyer.

Mike

NEWS is different. I think you'll have difficulty finding a movie using the images you refer to without having signed releases.

Jim

[chtgrubbs]

Check out this site: http://www.editorialphoto.com/

[mjordan]

And how many times do you use those images in an ad?



Oh I would love to have you snap a shot of me and sell it to someone for a commercial use. Then you would see just what I can do about it. Heck I can always use the extra cash.

Indy, I don't know why you are getting so beligerent about this. Yes, anyone can take a picture of you at a public event. And yes, they can use it in a lot of ways. Yes, there are always ways that they couldn't and shouldn't use it. Yes, you can sue anyone you want. But no, you won't always win. You talk big in here but when it comes to actually paying the $50K or so to take it all the way through a federal court so you could maybe win nothing, then that might be a different story.

And there are a lot of ways to make money from pictures without going commercial with it. Just selling a picture on the internet is not going commercial. Selling it to other people at an event is not going commercial. Using it to promote your own photography by displaying it in your portfolio is not going commercial. Now if I wanted to make 10 million calendars and your mug was on it, that might be different. Just for your information, I have been published hundreds of times (both here in the US and in England and Europe) of public event with people in them and I've never gotten one release. I've never been sued either. And my name and copyright have been on every one of them (well, except for a few that they left it off in the publication). I have also sold a lot of the images I take at public places that show recognizable faces of other people.

So if you want to get your lawyer all excited about making some money off of you, go right ahead and threaten all you want.

Mike

[jimsolt]

Indy, I don't know why you are getting so beligerent about this. Yes, anyone can take a picture of you at a public event. And yes, they can use it in a lot of ways. Yes, there are always ways that they couldn't and shouldn't use it. Yes, you can sue anyone you want. But no, you won't always win. You talk big in here but when it comes to actually paying the $50K or so to take it all the way through a federal court so you could maybe win nothing, then that might be a different story.

And there are a lot of ways to make money from pictures without going commercial with it. Just selling a picture on the internet is not going commercial. Selling it to other people at an event is not going commercial. Using it to promote your own photography by displaying it in your portfolio is not going commercial. Now if I wanted to make 10 million calendars and your mug was on it, that might be different. Just for your information, I have been published hundreds of times (both here in the US and in England and Europe) of public event with people in them and I've never gotten one release. I've never been sued either. And my name and copyright have been on every one of them (well, except for a few that they left it off in the publication). I have also sold a lot of the images I take at public places that show recognizable faces of other people.

So if you want to get your lawyer all excited about making some money off of you, go right ahead and threaten all you want.

Mike

Right on! We're all here on earth so you can take our picture any time you want and do with it what you want. What could possibly be better than that?

Jim

[IndyJeff]

Mike your last post just proves what I expected, you don't have any idea of the difference between editorial and commercial use.

When you get that figured out, get back with me.

[mjordan]

Oh, I do, Indy. But I have no interest in going into it with you. You aren't interested in it anyway. Good luck if you really do ever try to sue someone. You will need it... and a lot of money. ;)

Mike

[cargo123]

A number of things have happened since I posted this article. I did contact the law office first thing Thursday morning. The attorney I spoke with did say this was a copyright issue. His partner was to call me back as he is the expert on Copyright laws. He never called back.
Two of my pictures were used in two different articles that came out in yesterday’s paper giving me credit for the pictures. The articles were promoting the group for an event this weekend. I called the writer from the newspaper to ask him about handing over my disk. He indicated the manager of the performers indicated she needed the pictures for promotional pictures this weekend, and that I gave permission to give them the disk. I told him I never gave them permission to pickup the disk, and that she was going to buy pictures from me for this event. Now that she has the disk, she doesn’t need to pay me for anything. He apologized and gave me her cell number, told me to call her and explain she has no permission to use any of my pictures.
I called and got her voice mail. I left a message explaining I understood she had my disk without my permission and needed to find out why she did that. Her assistant called me back asking if I had talked to the promotion company (my sister-in-law) about releasing rights to Budweiser, so they could create banners and other marketing material. I told him I needed to talk with his manager about why they obtained my disk and copied the pictures. He also told me no pictures were copied and the disk was given back to the promotion company. I told him I am not releasing anything, and they have no right to use any of my pictures. I explained I needed to talk with his manager only. He told me that he was delegated the responsibility to handle this matter, and she would not call me back. Then I said no reason to continue the conversation. She never called me back.
I called the promotion company to get the phone number for Budweiser. I called the events manager at Budweiser and indicated I heard he received pictures from the manager of the performers. He indicated he double-checked with everyone in his organization to see if they received pictures, and he was informed no pictures were received. He heard from the promotion company there was a problem with copyrights. I did explain that my pictures were improperly obtained and I will not give permission to anyone for their use. I asked him if he wanted my phone number for any question that could come up. He said, “ No. I want to be hands off with this situation. Now that I don’t have to print marketing material saves me money.”
In the future, if a newspaper wants to use my pictures, what type of legal forms should I use? What are reasonable charges for the use of these pictures? Does anyone have references with prices charged in the industry? I am glad I have gone through this learning experience. As my wife indicated, these things could be expected for the first time. It’s if I don’t learn and let it happen again, something is wrong. The Forum is the best tool I have for learning at this time. Great advice here!