How Good can I do with a 70-200 f2.8?

[Ken Nielsen]

I tried a 100-400 f4, but exchanged it for a 70-200 f2.8. Top reason was I'm a beginner. I wasn't getting sharp results with tripod, mirror lockup and remote fire. It all seemed just too cumbersome. Also I am in an area that has lots of overcast skies and my shots were underexposed. After a person told me about the two-foot zoom and pointed to his two feet, I felt that I needed to start where I could work more easily, and that would be with quick tripod shots, and even some hand-held afforded by the greater light-gathering power of the f2.8 lens. The shots I am getting with the 70-200 are also no sharper than the one's was getting with the longer lens, so I added it all up to 'I need experience to succeed at this.'

I can barely afford one lens at this time, so I wanted to start with something that will help me learn the ropes.

Any comments on this approach, also on how to get sharper shots? I am learning to do better with exposure by using exposure compensation. I always shoot in 'P' mode, which gives me flexibility to change shutter speed and aperture settings manually.

TIA,

Ken

[artyman]

For shooting birds 200mm is a bit on the short side, most folk use 100-400 or even longer, I have the sigma 150-500 and use a 1.4 TC with that. If your shots were underexposed I have to ask how well do you understand exposure. With a short lens, you will be limited and shooting from a blind to enable you to get close enough. You don't mention which camera so I assume it is a 1.6 crop.

[RikWriter]

Just MHO, but 200mm is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too short for all but large birds at short distances.

[Ken Nielsen]

I'm using a Rebel XTi.

I've been able to get close to birds while I am walking my dogs. I keep the camera on a tripod and have captured small birds in shrubs who are willing to pose.

My aim is to become more invisible to birds through mannerism and patience. Like I said, I already have shots that are just as good as what I was getting with the 400, but I am moving in closer to the birds. This is easier because I am not fiddling with a heavy stretched out lens. I hope I can find opportunity while I am out, so I can actually capture good pictures. My weakest area right now is sharpness, and I think that part of that is simply because I am working with under 11 megapixels and am not able to get closer to the subjects (yet.) Shooting from a lightweight bamboo blind might be a consideration. I'm going to a wildlife shooting seminar in a few weeks where I can watch how it is done.

It is a fantastic hobby and lots of fun to be sure.

[alohabob]

Either lens will give extremely sharp results. If your fairly new to photography I'd guess you just need more practice. Use the 'search' feature here on potn to learn about whatever you want, when you want. Read "Understanding Exposure", (seriously). Practice practice... Don't get frustrated, it will come...

[TooManyShots]

Let see, the ones you managed to get the shots are they happened to be House Sparrows and Sparrows in general? These are the birds I could think of that you can take the shot with a shorter lens like the 70-200L. They are just so used to people that you can literally feed them and they would all flock in.

Now, if you want to capture other birds like cardinals, house finchs. or warblers, even with a 400mm lens you may or may not get the shots. Because these birds tend to move very fast. When you try to get close, they would fly off. Yes, I have seen shots taken with 200mm that's because the photographer was shooting behind a blind in all camo gears like tents and covers. Sit in one spot for half the day, maybe in front of a feeder. If you have no intention of doing that, you need longer lens, period.

Have you just started in photography? If so, learn to shoot in either AV or TV mode. Learn to understand various metering modes. Is crucial you understand what other various meter modes do. The color of the bird as well as the background surrounding, adding a strong bright sun, can throw off your exposure every time. You must know when to add exposure compensation.

[Ken Nielsen]

I would be comfortable shooting entirely Manual, but with the excellent metering to help speed things along I am using P + Exposure Compensation + + ISO now to get the right exposure and shutter setting.

I have read Ansel Adams books 'the negative' and understand the zone system of exposure he wrote about. I am mostly from the film days. I think in ASA film speed but now it is ISO. I notice many here are using AV or Aperture-priority automatic exposure. AT is shutter priority. Either one allows me to turn the dial to alter aperture or shutter respectively, and the other (shutter or aperture) will be compensated for automatically. What I have been doing up to this point, and it has worked fine so far, is using Program mode and then setting Exposure compensation to compensated for a dark bird against a bright sky background - I want to expose for the bird but not blow out the background highlights - I shoot mostly for the bird because that is my subject.

I will give Av and Tv a shot, but exposure has not been a problem. I also put the ISO speed into the equation with consideration of subject movement, noise at higher ISO speeds.

The only real problem I've had is 1.) under exposure because I wasn't using exposure compensation to start with, but have learned fast to rely on exposure compensation in almost every situation. Birds are the subject, and from the start I was just taking pictures with background and everything dictating exposure. Not exposing for the subject does not work with bird photography.

This only leaves me with one real problem left at this point 2.) focus, or more accurately 'sharpness.' I'm using AF with the centerpoint to get a reading of correct distance on the bird's eye or chest, then I switch to manual focus to 'hold' that reading. From there I use manual focus and have done pretty well with that. The real problem is that I am not able to fill 1/3 of the frame, most often much less than that with the bird. I have not been able to get that close yet. So now it is a matter of megapixels. If I get a 20mp camera body, this lens will produce sharper images I do believe. Since I am getting so little of the frame filled with the actual bird, I need to crop the image in Photoshop which leaves me with a bird that I want to show at 200% size but the pixels start showing at that point.

A Canon 5D MKII would be my next investment to help upgrade the sharpness of my shots.

Also alohabob above says to stick with it and practice. I think that is exactly right on. Before I do any more investment in equipment I want to be able to produce the excellent results that I know this equipment is capable of as is. It is me, the photographer who needs to become more competent and increase my skill through study, others' input here, practice in the field, and seminars.

All input from everyone here is accepted thankfully. I will re-read and study advice and recommendations given in this thread.

Oh, also, I am more working on being the one who spends 1/2 day or more hiding in a blind to get a shot than to get a bigger lens now.When I get pretty good with what I have now, I will rent that 800mm f5.6 and be ready to be challenged again and in new ways.

[davebreal]

This only leaves me with one real problem left at this point 2.) focus, or more accurately 'sharpness.' I'm using AF with the centerpoint to get a reading of correct distance on the bird's eye or chest, then I switch to manual focus to 'hold' that reading. From there I use manual focus and have done pretty well with that. The real problem is that I am not able to fill 1/3 of the frame, most often much less than that with the bird. I have not been able to get that close yet. So now it is a matter of megapixels. If I get a 20mp camera body, this lens will produce sharper images I do believe. Since I am getting so little of the frame filled with the actual bird, I need to crop the image in Photoshop which leaves me with a bird that I want to show at 200% size but the pixels start showing at that point.


Manual focus on a minute object isn't a good idea. Go with AI Servo focus mode instead. I'd also be using a 1.4x or even 2x TC on the lens. IQ will degrade, but the camera will at least be able to resolve focus better as more of the frame gets filled.

As a new photographer you have to realize that sharp images depend on sufficient shutter speed, good lens technique, cooperative targets, decent lighting, and a good AF lock by the equipment.

If you want to practice on birds with a shorter lens, find some gulls or mallards by a pond or shore. They are more tolerant of people, plus they will fill the frame better than songbirds.

[skygod44]

.....My weakest area right now is sharpness, and I think that part of that is simply because I am working with under 11 megapixels and am not able to get closer to the subjects (yet.)..... It is a fantastic hobby and lots of fun to be sure.

Hi Ken and great to see you thinking hard about this great hobby.

Well, I'm jumping in with a couple of pointers for you, illustrated by a picture I took a few weeks ago.

I'm using an EOS 30D ( = 8.2 megapixels) and this shot was with the 100mm f/2.8 macro lens. I also have the 100-400L and wouldn't sell it unless my life depended on it! I love that lens when used in the right conditions.

And that's the point.

All gear has good and bad points, but it's YOU who has to understand that and get it right before you push that little button on top of your camera.

This means that your holding technique will do more for sharpness than any lenses/bodies Canon will (very happily) sell you.

Your ability to prepare the camera for the shot before you're even outside will make you able to shoot in a second. Oh and I don't even own a tripod (well, just a tiny table-top one for macro and the like). I find them cumbersome, slow, inflexible and unless you buy one that won't actually work, they're VERY expensive - I'd prefer to spend ￥１２０，０００ on a lens!

Over to you, and tell me if you think my humble 8.2MP camera can't get a sharp image...
;)

[BradM]

If you are having to crop too much to pull the subject up and as a result losing detail, it is that your shooting with too little focal length not that you have to small of a sensor.

And your focus technique is contary to what most would suggest, without a split prism or other device to confirm focus the camera is much more accurate than your eye is.

I am sorry but if you want to shoot birds and wildlife your techniques just are going to continue to lead to disappointing results.

You spoke earlier of using a 100-400mm, a tripod, MLU and not being happy with the results and getting advice to go shorter and move closer. I am a serious advocate of getting closer to the subjects but not by moving to them but allowing them to move to me by sitting still and waiting. But I would consider that your results from the other lens had more to do with technique than anything inherently wrong with the glass.

I have shot tens of thousands of images with the XTi and the 100-400mm with excellent results and never mounted it on a tripod and never used MLU for anything that was alive. Like this one which was handheld

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/redtail12.jpg

Taking advice advice that going shorter and walking in closer while seems logical just doesn't work for the wild things otherwise hundreds of us could have saved 10's of thousands of dollars of glass. Even backyard birds in most cases just can't be approached closely enough that 200mm of focal length is enough to get a great shot.

Thinking that using a body that has a large sensor area like the 5DII or better the 1DsIII can be cropped into a shot that you desire will still result in difficulties as neither body is really designed to the demands of wildlife photographers.

You have spent some time thinking about this but I think this needs a re-evaluation and spend some time looking at the techniques, methods and techniques used by wildlife photographers.

[TooManyShots]

Just to illustrate a point. Back in the days when I was poor and could only afford a 70-200L F4 IS, this is the type of bird I could get. A chipping sparrow that you could find plenty of them in a city square.

200mm on a 30D (a whopping 8mp body). Distance is within 8 feet.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2288/2216576043_db52d5357a_b.jpg


Here is a picture of hawk somewhere between 20ft to 30ft above me, on a tree. Shot it with a 30D and 200mm + 1.4x converter. Cropped a lot. Maybe at least 50 to 60%.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2140/2240814064_3319c3c345_o.jpg

Now, this is a shot of hawk at 30ft+ distance with a 500L + 1.4x converter (700mm)on a 1dmarkII, 8mp body.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/3286054224_72c7aedcc1_o.jpg


This one is actually under 30ft.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3579/3402672673_4d2543c34c_o.jpg


Is quite obvious that focal length rules. Sorry for the expression but whoever told that you zoom with your feet instead of with your lens when comes to bird photography is "clueless." By the time you manage to zoom with your feet with your 200mm, I can guarantee that your subject would be long gone.

[Ken Nielsen]

Now I have the word from the experts, and you all have great evidence with shots that are remarkable. You should all be very proud of the shots you are getting.

I want to be able to shoot more than lazy birds that come up to humans.

I think, even though I took the 100-400 lens back to the store, I can tell the shop owner that I have been convinced to keep that one in favor of the 70-200 f2.8. I can chalk up my poor results to my inept performance at this point to simply not being good enough at running the equipment yet.

I respect your input and your experience and will follow the logic that you present here by going in on Monday and opting for the the 100-400 f4. After that I will 'learn' my way into using it properly. That one hand-held shot of the hawk above is convincing enough to show me that it can be done.

Thank You,

Ken

[skygod44]

Now I have the word from the experts, and you all have great evidence with shots that are remarkable. You should all be very proud of the shots you are getting.

I want to be able to shoot more than lazy birds that come up to humans.

I think, even though I took the 100-400 lens back to the store, I can tell the shop owner that I have been convinced to keep that one in favor of the 70-200 f2.8. I can chalk up my poor results to my inept performance at this point to simply not being good enough at running the equipment yet.

I respect your input and your experience and will follow the logic that you present here by going in on Monday and opting for the the 100-400 f4. After that I will 'learn' my way into using it properly. That one hand-held shot of the hawk above is convincing enough to show me that it can be done.

Thank You,

Ken

Hey Ken,

Good to read you're reconsidering the 100-400L (though, it's not actually an f/4 lens....it's aperture varies from f/4.5 ~ f/5.6)

With a lot of lenses, it needs a bit of Tender Loving Care regarding technique, but for me, putting in the effort makes the result more special.

Enjoy your photography, and do let us all know how you get on over the coming months.

Simon
:D

[Ken Nielsen]

Hey Ken,

Good to read you're reconsidering the 100-400L (though, it's not actually an f/4 lens....it's aperture varies from f/4.5 ~ f/5.6)

With a lot of lenses, it needs a bit of Tender Loving Care regarding technique, but for me, putting in the effort makes the result more special.

Enjoy your photography, and do let us all know how you get on over the coming months.

Simon
:D

I'm skeerd, more than anything else. I had a chance to try both lenses and the 100-400 definitely seemed to be much more of a challenge to work with.

Would you mind pushing me out of the nest (so to speak) with say, your three or so top technique tips for this lens?

Also, you mentioned 'the right conditions.' What generally are the right conditions for best use of this lens?

[skygod44]

I'm skeerd, more than anything else. I had a chance to try both lenses and the 100-400 definitely seemed to be much more of a challenge to work with.

Would you mind pushing me out of the nest (so to speak) with say, your three or so top technique tips for this lens?

Scared? Don't be.

Some tips:

1) Don't be afraid of using it at 100mm f/4.5 for a while to get used to the weight.

2) I put a Kenko Pro protector filter on the front the moment I bought it (have tested it thoroughly with and without the filter since, due to many people saying IQ - Image Quality - drops, and I disagree) so I don't worry about blowing sand, dust, whatever getting into it.

3) Learn how to use the two IS modes. Mode-1 stabilizes modest movement in all directions, while mode-2 stabilzes in one direction, perpendicular to any major movement, ie, panning shots. This I use a lot!

4) Perfect your holding/bracing technique. The better you are at creating a "tripod" with your body, plus anything else nearby (walls, fences, poles, cars, etc) the better your shots will be.

5) Make sure you are squeezing the shutter release button - not stabbing it.

6) Most important, become aware that at 400mm, with the lens hood attached (oh, and use that - ALWAYS!), it's a damn long piece of kit! It's so easy to slam it into door-frames, tables, low-flying aircraft, etc!

Catch you soon....

[Ken Nielsen]

Go with AI Servo focus mode instead. and a good AF lock by the equipment.

Dave, As you see above, I'm opting for the longer lens and will work to become trained in using it.

Would you ming elaborating on the two points you made above?

By AF lock, I do that by holding the shutter button halfway down with the centerpoint on the object I want to focus on, then I have to hold the button halfway down to hold that focus. Am I missing something? Is there a way to lock that focus? I'm using the Rebel XTi.

Also, on 'AI Servo focus mode.' I know I have a choice of Manual or Auto Focus, but what is AI Servo focus mode? Is that available on the Rebel XTi?

[Ken Nielsen]

It's so easy to slam it into door-frames, tables, low-flying aircraft, etc!

Ha ha ha!

I can tell I'm headed on an adventure.

I won't ask any more questions right now because I'm sure many things will be resolved as I work with this lens.

Thanks for the start-up tips.

Ken

[skygod44]

Ha ha ha!

I can tell I'm headed on an adventure.

I won't ask any more questions right now because I'm sure many things will be resolved as I work with this lens.

Thanks for the start-up tips.

Ken

You're very welcome, and do post some pics when you can, so we can give you some extra tips.

[BradM]

I'm skeerd, more than anything else. I had a chance to try both lenses and the 100-400 definitely seemed to be much more of a challenge to work with.

Would you mind pushing me out of the nest (so to speak) with say, your three or so top technique tips for this lens?

Also, you mentioned 'the right conditions.' What generally are the right conditions for best use of this lens?

Any long(er) lens takes some time to become compentent with it so don't let any initial shots that aren't what you are hoping for frustrate you. The image quality is there in the lens, the 40D is a great body and you can pull out some incredible images with these pieces of kit.

The 100-400mm is often a bit soft wide open at 400mm but will sharpen up very well if stopped down a bit, I have had about a dozen of these in my hands now from different people that were concerned theirs weren't as sharp as my copy was but after swapping lenses they happily took theirs back with the thought that their softness was technique on their part and not the equipment.

This shot is one of the "test" shots I did using anothers lens that swore it wasn't up to par, they have since found how to use the lens to get the best out of it. And this shot wasn't even stopped down to the best part of the lens, it was only at f/6.3.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/mallardhenflight.jpg

On my copy and those I have played with stopping the lens down to f/7.1 to f/9 w/ f/8 usually being the best point brings the best out of the glass. If you were to look at the zenfolio link below you will see several hundred shots at 400mm and less where this lens was used at these apertures, the exif data is displayed with the images. And you might note that I perfer to stay in that aperture range with increasing the ISO if need be for shutter speed. But I am usually well under the 1/focal length rule of thumb. This shot for example is less than half of the "recommended" shutter speed of 1/640th for using 400mm on a 1.6 crop body. I have shots as sharp down to as low as 1/30th of a second but don't count of those.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/dowitchers.jpg

That is because with the IS and good technique holding or bracing the lens is all that is needed to get crisp shots. The Pacific NorthWet is not known for its bright sunny days and having to work around that limitation is just another challenge to pull the best shots out of the equipment.

When handholding the lens always give the IS the .5 - 1 second to spin up before firing off an image, image quality will improve. Every little movement by yourself behind this lens is amplified when using longer glass, often pressing the shutter button is enough to lose image quality because the button wasn't stroked but stabbed at.

For beginners I often recommend that they take shots in 3 or 4 shot bursts. The reason is the 1st will be soft because of shutter technique, and the last will be soft because they don't follow through the release but are anticipating looking at their results. The middle image or two will be the sharpest. Delete the the soft ones but use them to see the improvement that can be made in technique.

Handholding a long lens is much like shooting a handgun, in that stability (or accuracy) and the resulting sharpness comes from stance and grip. The barrel of the lens should be supported by the palm of the hand, if the lens hands finger are gripping the barrel you are imparting vibration and reducing image quality. Support it on the palm, fingers are just there to adjust focal length, or focus if needed and to guide the lens to the point it needs to be but don't grip it.

The elbow or back of the arm (tricep area) of the left arm should be pulled back into the torso giving a firm point of contact and support for the left hand that is cupping the lens. Try not to "flex" the muscles of the arm as this will induce shake after a couple moments and pass vibrations along to the glass softening the image.

The right hand holds and controls the camera, it should be pulled back into the face to bring it into firm contact with the head/face. You now have several points of contact and bracing to support the lens/camera.

Your body should be at a slightly quartering angle to the subject with the left foot forward with the foot pointing almost at the subject and the right foot at bit back to the rear pointing slightly to the right. Knees slightly bent and you will be shooting almost over a line drawn by the hips, the hip line will be more to the left of the subject, but even over the hip line you will be very stable. This is in effect in the handgun shooting world called a modified weaver stance. This is an extremely stable position and very condusive to sharp images.

If possible use anything you can to brace yourself against when shooting, a fence post, tree, car window etc. But if the for example are shooting from a car turn it off before bracing against it. It is vibrating and even witrh IS trying to compensate for your gross mevements it may well lose the ability to deal with the minor vibes from the vehicle and you will lose image quality.

Sitting and kneeling are great ways to handhold a lens and get the benefit of a stable base on the ground, brace your elbows on the ground or your knee(s), this position often makes for a much better point of view for an image. Too many people don't shoot at eye level of the subject and wonder why their shots don't have the impact of others. Look at the shot above and imagine how it would look it I decided to not get down in the wet sand and shoot from a standing position. Would if have the same look? Would it be as pleasant of composition?

Finally as I'm going long here, I don't agree that using a filter will not degrade image with this lens, too often I have seen it, even with good to the best filters the image quality suffers. It is your choice but in 6 years and thousands upon thousands of images carrying, crawling and pushing through the wilds of woods or shore with this lens on one of the bodies I have never had an instance of damage or where I "wished" I had another piece of glass to "protect" my lenses. If you wantthe absolute best the lens offers don't put another piece of glass in frot of it that it wasn't designed for and isn't required. Just my opinion YMMV.

I'll go out on another handheld shot, again well below the 1/focal length "rule" 1/200th for this shot. Don't think the lens or sensor could resolve much more than it did for me here. Hope you get better results than any of these or that any one else has captured. I hope this "novel" helps a bit. All the best!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/apr2siskin.jpg

[rgfrison]

Everything brad said is true, the 100-400 will deliver excellent results when used properly. I own both the 70-200 2.8 and the 100-400 and can tell you first hand the 70-200 is too short. If you can get small birds like finches to minimum focusing distance
you are still looking at almost 50% crop to fill the frame. I am no pro like a lot of these guys, but with practice I have gotten considerably better with the 100-400, and hope to keep improving. Just practice, and don't get discouraged. I have been shooting a dslr for about a year and a half and owned the 100-400 for about 9 months, my shots are far from perfect but, I just keep taking advise from the people who know and keep shooting.:) With my 40d at 400mm f7.1

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rgfrison/IMG_7344-1.jpg

[Ken Nielsen]

I am honored to have your responses here. Brad, I'm taking it all to heart. I've taken english horseback riding lessons and studied violin - your description sounds like a bringing together of the two to arrive at balance and posture to arrive at the best holding position when shooting. I'll also keep a mind on stroking and not stabbing at the shutter button. I've tried to keep it to a gentle squeeze, but at this point I've got my work cut out for me. The examples shown here are amazing - simply amazing.

My Sincere Thanks to each of you,

Ken

[Ken Nielsen]

I'll be going to my first seminar on wildlife photography on May 24th. Here's the instructor's site.

http://www.wilhelmphoto.com/

It should be inspiring to say the least.

[Ken Nielsen]

I've been studying my camera this afternoon and located AI Servo focus and tried all of the available exposure modes. I see that Av mode (aperture priority) if I want to keep the lens at f8, or Tv mode (shutter priority) if I want to keep the shutter speed at 250 or somewhere above. It seems that these things all work to help keep exposure good and that there would be situations where you would want to choose one or the other based on the subject.

Another thing is metering, and I think center-weighted metering would be best because it would keep metering on the bird.

Focusing is a crap shoot when there are extraneous branches or leaves in the foreground. I use one center spot for focus and hold the button halfway down to lock and then switch the lens to Manual Focus to hold the focus distance. It seems that the more "automatic" focusing modes (AI and AI servo) are going to be fooled by foreground objects in dense brush situations.

Out of all this I only have one question at this point: Is there some easier way to lock focus once you have spotted the subject with the AF point? All I see in the manual is to hold the shutter button halfway down to preserve the focus and you have to do that with each shot... makes a good case to just use manual focusing because that holds the same no matter how many shots you do at that distance, or if the bird takes off and you want to follow with a pan... it will not be tricked by foreground foliage.

[DDCSD]

Ken, any chance you can post up a few of the results you are getting? The good folks here can let you know exactly what went wrong.

[Hikin Mike]

Ken,

Try the Custom Function "c.Fn-03". This way you use the * button to focus and use the shutter to fire the shutter.

[rgfrison]

Foreground folage can be a problem, one very important thing I have learned is setup for the shot can be as important as the shot itself, shooting through branches is going to frustate learning a new lens, try getting them out in the open. I took some advise on setting up my yard and it made life much easier. If you are shooting out in the wild, try using some sort of blind, or read up on stalking tips. It is very tough to get great shots from a bad shooting situation.:)

[Ken Nielsen]

Holy Cow, this thread is priceless.

I just picked up my new 100-400 L-series IS gorgeous Canon lens about an hour ago. If it weren't for you guys I would have been stuck with a shorter lens that would have not done the job. As it is, I've got a handful to deal with remembering the 3,000 rules to getting a good shot but I'm headed in the right direction with this lens at least. I'm truly excited.

I'll be going out in about an hour, to the spot by a pond where the red winged blackbirds hang out in bushes near where I can set up and shoot.

"Custom Function "c.Fn-03". This way you use the * button to focus" - This is another amazing piece of information that I'll try.

I'm sure the birds will be laughing as they see me fiddling with settings while all the good shots are getting away. "Here he comes again, what's he going to try now? Caw caw caw..."

[Ken Nielsen]

Here is the best image that I've shot with the 400mm lens when I was first trying it out a few weeks ago. It was on a tripod, manual focus, hand pressed the shutter, metering was off because it was reading the background which was sky and not the bird which was midnight black. This is the original jpeg, no image processing. I also have the RAW version available. When I tried to lighten the shadows (bird) it comes up with lots of noise, so the shot is just not suitable IMHO.

When I go out today, rather than bracket, I'll try 'center weighted' exposure and also set exposure compensation up a full stop when trying this same shot again this afternoon.

Since I'm also on a tripod I can use the remote firing trigger for 'hands-off' shutter release.

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/red_winged_blackbird_01.jpg

[davebreal]

Here is the best image that I've shot with the 400mm lens when I was first trying it out a few weeks ago. It was on a tripod, manual focus, hand pressed the shutter, metering was off because it was reading the background which was sky and not the bird which was midnight black. This is the original jpeg, no image processing. I also have the RAW version available. When I tried to lighten the shadows (bird) it comes up with lots of noise, so the shot is just not suitable IMHO.

When I go out today, rather than bracket, I'll try 'center weighted' exposure and also set exposure compensation up a full stop when trying this same shot again this afternoon.

Since I'm also on a tripod I can use the remote firing trigger for 'hands-off' shutter release.

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/red_winged_blackbird_01.jpg

Ken, looks like a tough shot to make look good. The lighting just isn't there. Looks like leaves and sky are exposed ok (maybe 1 or 2 stops off IMO), and no light is really hitting the bird. Honestly there is no way any human is going to turn this angle w/ the 100-400mm and no flash into an award winning shot.

His eye is obscured too, and that is no good for wildlife photography. For me this shot is not a keeper. I would delete it, and concentrate on getting closer, unobstructed birds, with pleasant lighting hitting the subject. Sometimes it can just be a matter of patience, like sitting tight and waiting for a bird to come into a clearing.

[Ken Nielsen]

"like sitting tight and waiting for a bird to come into a clearing."

I just going out the door to see if this might happen.

Thanks,


Ken

[Ken Nielsen]

I went out to sit tight but the wind was blowing and the birds were hanging on to branches for dear life. Also, lots of people were out with their dogs off leash and one came along and peed right in my camera bag. The owner even said "my dog didn't do that!" I have no time for people in denial, I was there to get a shot of my beloved red winged blackbird and that is all. I sank the legs of the tripod into the earth and went to work.

The good news is in the resulting shots. They are so much better than the loser picture that I posted first. This is a huge improvement. I even included a soft foreground and sharp bird to show how spotting the center focus spot on the bird and then shutting off AF works to get the lens to ignore foreground branches and stay on the subject. It was very breezy, but the results are a great improvement.

Thanks to all the crew here who deserve big thanks for the shooting success today.

Note: I used P mode and TV mode to keep the shutter speed high because of the wind moving the subject radically. Both of those settings worked fine. I also bumped up exposure two full stops with exposure compensation. Also used 1600 ISO to keep shutter speed up. I think most shots were in the f10 area as I was checking, but I haven't looked at exif data on the resulting shots yet.

Whew, I'm so relieved that some of what you guys have been saying has been sinking in so I was able to see results like this.


A couple of shots and one shot showing soft foreground branches waving in the wind.

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/red_winged_blackbird_09.jpg

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/red_winged_blackbird_11.jpg

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/soft_foreground_sharp_bird_05.jpg


I posted the full shots so you can see how much wasted frame there is at the distance I had to be from the bird, which was fairly close really. I did nothing with these, they are right off the camera and I also have RAW images of each as well.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ken

[BradM]

Your results are better Jim (and congrats on the return to the 100-400mm).

But you did pick one of the toughest subjects to expose properly in difficult light, a black bird being framed by a bright sky.

As I mentioned in a previous post, photography is first about the light. And while with birds you often don't have a choice in posing your subject sometimes jut moving a few feet can take a backlight subject to a sidelight one and the image quality will really improve. From a more balanced exposure to finer detail defined.

A couple of the shots do have fine detail but to be honest if your camera was shooting at a lower ISO more detail could be resolved than you are currently getting. Shutter speed is great but high ISO will wipe detail, and the XTi is not known for its great ISO performance above 800. I know I owned one for some time and took some great shots but never up in those ISO levels excpet in very low light.

So it always a balance, getting the shutter speed you want and the best image quality possible.

I was out shooting on Sunday and also captured a Red Wing, light was pretty hard and coming from top left of the image as can seen from the shadows, the reed was leaning towards the light and I all but blew the whites, but the original shots I took were just a few feet, maybe 8 to the image right and I couldn't expose the bird properly without blowing out the background.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/mayblkbird.jpg

It pays to watch were the light is falling on your subject and try to fiind a slightly better position, just a few degrees can make a big difference.

And one thing one will find if you do this "chasing" of birds that it is often better to find a good place to shoot from, light, background, distance and just sit and wait. The subjects will come to you if it is their habitat with food, water or shelter.

They will come, patience is next big expenditure you have to make, and the most priceless because you can't buy more time. But waiting for a specific subject will often bring even better surprises and images captured then you might have ever expected when you headed out the door.

PS, I'm sure other feel the same way. I have had an exception for you by viewing your images that are a link instead of embedded in the thread. I usually never click a link to view another images. The site is designed to and supports you showing your images here. You will certainly gain more comments and advice if the images were visible in the thread.

Keep shooting, look at the improvement you have made in just a couple days, where will you be in a month or even a year?

[Ken Nielsen]

Great Shot Brad,

I can see what you are saying in the resulting photo you shot. I am coming from a lifelong career in graphic design and I think I bring a lot of that with me as I determine what makes a shot look good. I like the shape of the bird and I see in the shape alone a story to be told in a picture. I see that traditional bird photography wants to show all of the detail, markings and feathers all fully available to the viewer. As a designer I say to hell with the feathers and on this black bird all I want to see is that outstanding badge of color with the music from the movie Goldfinger playing in the background. I'm very unrealistic for this hobby as I like to throw rules out. But wait, you can't throw rules out if you don't know the rules first. I'm going to go at this seriously, and listen to the best, of which I consider many of you to be here. Later, it is my quest to use birds for design. I see so much in nature that is unbelievable design that no designer can compete with on such a grand scale. I digress. Right now I am liking the foliage and other habitat as a part of the compostition of the final shot, like you captured with the cat tail in your shot. All of that has to be a part of the final image impression and the story that the photo brings to life.

I'm a incurable dreamer. I hope that that part of me will be a good match for this new hobby and craft and sport.

Thanks, (delighted that you talked me into choosing this lens)


Ken


PS, Remarkable you were able to get so close to that bird.

[Ken Nielsen]

I know where three osprey hang out in some tall trees. It's a long walk and equipment has to be carried in, but I know they hover around in a close-knit threesome around 4:00 in the afternoon. It's going to rain for the next few days, but I'll be watching for a blue sky break and be in the right place, sun to my back when they want to come out of the woods and circle around overhead (about 50 -75 feet up.) I'd love to capture them together.

800 ISO, no more.

[davebreal]

Dave, As you see above, I'm opting for the longer lens and will work to become trained in using it.

Would you ming elaborating on the two points you made above?

By AF lock, I do that by holding the shutter button halfway down with the centerpoint on the object I want to focus on, then I have to hold the button halfway down to hold that focus. Am I missing something? Is there a way to lock that focus? I'm using the Rebel XTi.

Also, on 'AI Servo focus mode.' I know I have a choice of Manual or Auto Focus, but what is AI Servo focus mode? Is that available on the Rebel XTi?

Sorry I missed these follow-up questions before. You can lock the focus with a custom function if you want to, but I was talking about realizing the limits of auto-focus. It's sometimes necessary to recompose if you don't like what you see through the viewfinder.

AI Servo mode is available on the Xti (I own an Xti also). This mode is for tracking moving objects. Press the right arrow (marked "AF") on your Xti. Also, if you aren't doing so already be certain to shoot in a continuous burst mode.

[Ken Nielsen]

Sorry I missed these follow-up questions before. You can lock the focus with a custom function if you want to, but I was talking about realizing the limits of auto-focus. It's sometimes necessary to recompose if you don't like what you see through the viewfinder.

AI Servo mode is available on the Xti (I own an Xti also). This mode is for tracking moving objects. Press the right arrow (marked "AF") on your Xti. Also, if you aren't doing so already be certain to shoot in a continuous burst mode.

You have me reviewing my camera and I've found all the features you mentioned. These amazing cameras have so many features and options that it is easy to forget if they aren't used. I am shooting with burst, even as there is some lag when processing and saving is going on (I shoot RAW and high quality JPEG both at the same time.)

What I am getting ready to do is to throw away bad pictures. I have always kept everything since I just slop it all over to a 300G external drive. But now, I am shooting more because of these birds and I do not want to keep most of the shots. I think my trash can will be busier because of this new prolific shooting activity.

[Ken Nielsen]

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/sweet_bird_12.jpg

This was a hand-held shot at least 30 feet up on a high wire. I'm lovin' this lens. Even though this is not a museum quality shot, it brought me the tiny bird which I can now identify from the image. I'm also impressed that I can hand-hold this lens and get shots. Each day is getting better and I'm so hooked on shooting birds that the men in white coats are going to have to come get me and take my camera away.

[Ken Nielsen]

The last shot, of a tree swallow, seemed to be in better focus on the wire than on the bird. Is that your take on it. From what I've seen on these forums, it is possible to get sharp shots even at this distance if everything is right. I'm tempted to go back out and try to re-capture this one. Any pointers before I try? (I will take the tripod with me this time.)

Thanks,

Ken

[TooManyShots]

The last shot, of a tree swallow, seemed to be in better focus on the wire than on the bird. Is that your take on it. From what I've seen on these forums, it is possible to get sharp shots even at this distance if everything is right. I'm tempted to go back out and try to re-capture this one. Any pointers before I try? (I will take the tripod with me this time.)

Thanks,

Ken

Keep the shutter speed around 300s. Increase the ISO if needed. Set your aperture to F8. Increase your ISO if needed.
Use only AI Servo mode and center point focusing.
Avoid the sky as a background.
Increase your exposure compensation by + half of a stop. Shoot in RAW.

Tree swallow can be a bit tough to meter off because it has a white body and a very shinny blue hue. The light meter on the camera body would think that the subject has too much light. It is better of to overexpose the shot a bit than to have it underexposed. When the shot is underexposed, details can't be recovered during post processing. A bit of overexposure you could.

[Ken Nielsen]

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/sweet_bird_24.jpg

This shot has everything the same as above for camera settings but was shot at f8 and came out much sharper. How did I get f8 with all of the other settings the same as the shot before where I used f6.3? A cloud moved and the sun got brighter. : )

Anyway, it shows that f-stop has a lot to do with it. (Can't always use the sun for control, but next time I'll do slower shutter if need be to keep the f-stop down.

[Ken Nielsen]

Just for fun. Here's that blackbird. It's really a blubird.

http://www.studio10webgraphics.com/InternetPosts/wades_bluebird.jpg