5D mkII for family shooting?

[anthony11]

My 2004 G6 did okay outdoors, but indoors the AF, ISO capability, and noise just don't cut it for shooting my son, who's now 6.5 months old. Anyone out there using a 5D mark II for shooting babies/toddlers/young children? I know this isn't a sports camera and don't really care at this point. In 5 years I may yearn for a faster frame rate and more sophisticated AF system once he's running around more/faster, but by then I could presumably upgrade to a new body, the 90D or the 5DmkIII/IV whatever's out then.

Any thoughts? I'm especially looking for insights from people actually using a 5D mkII for family shooting, at home and at gatherings (eg. PEPS groups, picnics, etc.).

I would seem to have two alternatives to a 5DmkII:

1) 50D. 25+% more fps, but not as great from ISO 1600-6400. My G6 gives me too long exposures indoors most of the time, even when forced to the (distractingly noisy) ISO400 so high-ISO performance is what sent me on this quest. Maybe a 50D now with an upgrade to the successor early next year?

2) A competing *cough*cough*cough*D700*cough* brand. More fps yet, 12MP is plenty for my needs, high-ISO performance comparable to the 5DmkII, loads of body features like somewhat-more-useful auto-ISO, better AF etc., but a real lack of glass that's both manageable and quality. I really like the idea of a 24-105 f/4, 50mm f1.x prime, and later a 70-200 f/4 IS as a complete kit, and Nikon just doesn't have that for their full-frame cameras.

Sure Nikon has their f2.8 zooms that are highly-regarded, but I think I need to be realistic about how much bulk and weight I'm getting myself into, especially since I'm not of large, young, or athletic build and it's work enough wrangling the boy without a $1800 ingot in one hand.

I welcome any insights, especially from folks also shooting their own kids outside of a studio setting.

[anthony11]

OBTW, that's the boy in my avatar, courtesy my iPhone in one hand while he slept.

[Helen Bartlett]

Hi Anthony,

I think a 5dmk2 would be great for photographing kids. I use a 1dmk3 which is also a fantastic camera. I don't think you need the faster frame rate, I never find that I shoot in bursts even when the kids are running around so I wouldn't worry about needing a sports camera. The high ISO on the 5dmk2 would be great for indoor stuff and that, certainly for me, would be much more important than the frame rate and the focus is certainly going to be good enough for photographing kids (my partner has one for weddings and he love it - the files he gets are beautiful).

Hope that helps

Helen

[anthony11]

Thanks for the input.

I've been shooting bursts with my G6 in part to try to get some fraction of reasonably-sharp shots given the long exposures it needs, and also because of the slow focus and shutter lag.

[anthony11]

Sigh, still fighting WAF here, the lost photo ops are driving me crazy.

Seems like I could stick with center-point AF most of the time and crop at will for composition.

I'm a bit disappointed that there hasn't been much response here. I don't always do well with big decisions without lots of real-world info.

[Motab]

Hey Anthony -

I use a 5DII and am just getting started. I've had no shortage of kids and families willing to work with me and help build my portfolio.

I like using the camera. In my experience the burst is more than adequate... I've noticed in my own self-critiquing that it's more about the right time to press the shutter button, not a matter of how long you hold it down. Once I see a good pose or something, a 3-4 shot burst usually gets what I want. With the kit lens, the AF speed is fine. I do notice when I put the 50/1.8 on that it's very very slow.

Agree with Helen - the improved quality (over my old 350D) at high ISOs is a noticeable improvement. Also, the big sensor lets me crop pretty liberally and still end up with good prints.

http://andybrunker.blogspot.com/ has a few of what I've done with it so far. Not a lot of action shots, but plenty of indoor.

[anthony11]

Interesting timing - my 5DmkII arrived from B&H and my 24-105 from Canoga just about an hour ago -- kits are nowhere to be found.

We'll see today if my boy gets distracted by the big camera. I ordered the 24-105 in part for weight -- if this sucker is considered lightweight, I can only imagine what the 24-70 would be like.

[anthony11]

<=-------- impatiently waits for his battery to charge, wonders if there's any reason other than forcing new purchases why the 5DmkII battery doesn't go in his CG-580.

[jra]

How about a 5D Classic? It's a great camera and will save you quite a bit of cash for some decent glass or a flash...if that's important to you anyways :)

edit: Doh...just seen that you already got the 5DII....congrats! I'm sure you'll have a great time with it :)

[anthony11]

I thought about a 5D. Have read multiple claims that it's a dust magnet, and I wanted the better high-ISO performance, newer interface, micro-adjustment, and self-cleaning sensor. Another motivation for the mkII was the hope to avoid flash. Don't imagine a need for more glass at least for a couple of years, when I see a 70-200 f/4 IS joining the family. That lens ultimately is what tipped me toward the Canon side instead of a D700. I'd love some of the features the N-word put on that body, but their lens constellation is just painful. MAN the 24-105 seems like a brick to me. I'm renting a 24-70 (+ 10oz) to compare to it just so I don't always wonder if I made the right choice. Can't begin to imagine wielding N-word's 70-200 at something like a 60% price premium and at what, 2.2x the weight compared to the Canon 70-200 f/4 IS.

[Helen Bartlett]

I am sure you will be fine with your 50 1.4. I have the 70-200 f2.8 but it is so heavy I hardly ever use it. 50mm is a great length for kids.

Have fun.

[anthony11]

I'm struggling a bit so far to get decent focus and noise, wondering if the 50D's AF would have done better and if I should resign myself to flash for indoor shooting.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=371856&d=1244615488

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=371855&d=1244615488

[sapearl]

Very nice shot Anthony :D. Perfect timing.

[anthony11]

Thanks -- still struggling with focus and noise :-/

[sapearl]

You'll get better - it'll come with time, practice and repetition. And that's not to say that there's anything wrong here..... but when pixel peeping, you tend to beat yourself up. ;)

Thanks -- still struggling with focus and noise :-/

[anthony11]

Thanks. My shots really aren't looking sharp even at display scaling or on 4x6 prints, though, which troubles me.

[JeffreyG]

Thanks -- still struggling with focus and noise :-/

I have four kids, and I have used successively an XT, 30D, 5D and 1D3 to shoot a very wide variety of things.

I think the 5D2 is a fine choice, and the 5D2 + 24-105L will be a very good set for all kinds of shooting.

Now, the one thing that you may still stuggle with is trying to shoot indoors with a lens as slow as f/4 without using a flash. I've included below a fairly typical indoor snapshot taken at ISO800, f/2 and 1/100. To take this shot with the f/4 lens will require either ISO3200 or compromising on that 1/100 shutter speed which is already fairly slow.

So you might wish to add a reasonably affordable prime lens like the 50/1.4 or 85/1.8 to your kit if you really want to stick with ambient light indoor shooting.

Also, eventually get yourself a 430EX and learn to shoot with bounced flash. This will eventually be a must when you want to shoot indoors with more than razor thin DOF, like shooting a birthday party or something. It's nice to have the celebrant, cake and present all in focus at once.

[fairytalephoto]

You think the 5d mk II is heavy now, wait till you put a vertical grip on it!

[SuzyView]

Try shooting handheld a 5D with a 70-200 2.8 IS with a flash all afternoon. I've done that.

[john-in-japan]

Just a sentence: The 5D and 5D2 will shoot just about anything you want, and shoot it well. As for being a dust magnet - not mine. I have 5D2 on order and will probably keep both bodies. For the things you shoot, no downside. And dittos on the Magic Latern Guide for 5D2. I have it and 5D booklet. Very good investment.
John

[anthony11]

I do have a 50mm f/1.4 prime. I briefly used the 580EX from someone's XTi last week. I couldn't seem to get it to act as the primary source of illumination -- it did fill flash just fine, but I was still getting 1/60 exposures indoors. Guess I need to do some reading, then pick up either a 430EXII or 580EXII.

I shot probably 2000 shots while I was away, including a bunch at a wedding where the pro was using a 5D2 as well but with flash (not sure what her second body was).

[JeffreyG]

I do have a 50mm f/1.4 prime. I briefly used the 580EX from someone's XTi last week. I couldn't seem to get it to act as the primary source of illumination -- it did fill flash just fine, but I was still getting 1/60 exposures indoors. Guess I need to do some reading, then pick up either a 430EXII or 580EXII.


Were you using Av mode? Av mode exposes for ambient regardless of whether a flash is on or not. If you are trying to underexpose with ambient and light the scene with a flash then Av (and Tv or P) is not your friend.

M, medium ISO, medium aperture and set the shutter speed to 1/200.

[egordon99]

I do have a 50mm f/1.4 prime. I briefly used the 580EX from someone's XTi last week. I couldn't seem to get it to act as the primary source of illumination -- it did fill flash just fine, but I was still getting 1/60 exposures indoors. Guess I need to do some reading, then pick up either a 430EXII or 580EXII.

I shot probably 2000 shots while I was away, including a bunch at a wedding where the pro was using a 5D2 as well but with flash (not sure what her second body was).

(just replace P-TTL with E-TTL and 1/180s with 1/200s which I believe is the x-sync speed for the 5DII, I originally wrote this for my Pentax "peeps" )

Basically, with flash, the FLASH exposure is solely determined by flash power (actually duration, how long the bulb is actually firing for), aperture and ISO. Ambient exposure is determined by ISO, shutter speed, and aperture (just like without any flash), so the trick is balancing the two. If I'm indoors in a smallish room (such as in someone's house), I usually just forget about ambient since the flash is powerful enough to light up the entire room (hence the 1/180s below, if the flash didn't fire, I'd have a more or less black picture) Now although you're shooting MANUAL Mode, that's only for the ambient exposure (the exposure needle in the viewfinder will blink warning you about underexposure, but ignore that). The camera's P-TTL metering will determine the needed flash output for a proper exposure.

Here's something I wrote on another forum -
"Easy" recipe for great P-TTL flash shots -
1)Point flash at ceiling
2)Put camera in MANUAL mode on the mode dial
3)Set FEC to +1 on the flash head

4)Shoot RAW (this allows you to recover some highlights that might get blown as a result of #3 above)

5)Set ISO to 200 (to start)
6)Set shutter speed to 1/180s
7)Set f-stop to whatever DOF you want


Now if the flash runs out of "power" because of high ceilings, you can raise the ISO or open up the f-stop to compensate. Or you can slow down the shutter to bring more ambient light into the exposure (in addition to adjusting ISO/f-stop) If the ceiling is REALLY high (like in a church), you may need a reflector to throw some of the light forward (I use the Joe Demb Flip-it).

Quick and dirty outdoor fill flash tutorial -
Basically, if your subject is in shade and the background is bright (ie under a tree) or majorly backlit, fill flash is your friend. Think of those times when you got a properly exposed background, but the subject was almost pitch black.

Put camera into Av mode, metering will set the shutter speed to expose the overall shot (which in the situations that call for fill-flash will generally be the background) based on your selected aperture/ISO.
Make sure flash is set to HSS (in case your shutter speed go faster than 1/180s) and P-TTL. Fire away! The shutter speed/f-stop/ISO will expose the background, and the flash should output enough power to light up the foreground.

Now to control the background exposure, you use exposure compensation on the camera body (which would adjust the shutter speed), to adjust how much fill for the flash exposure, you use Flash exposure compensation. The trick is balancing the two (as it is with indoor work), and that comes with experience/experimentation

[sapearl]

In general, if you can't get the flash to act as your primary light source, it's likel because your settings are letting in too much ambient light.

I would speculate that either your ISO is too high, shutter speed is too low, or aperture is too wide open, or all of the above. If any or all of these are the case, the sensor/meter sees plenty of bright, available light, and tells the flash to back off on its output. Use lower ISO, faster shutter speeds and smaller apertures, and the flash will need to throw out more for a good exposure.

Of course, I am used to doing things in MANUAL most of the time, but the principles are similar.

I do have a 50mm f/1.4 prime. I briefly used the 580EX from someone's XTi last week. I couldn't seem to get it to act as the primary source of illumination -- it did fill flash just fine, but I was still getting 1/60 exposures indoors. Guess I need to do some reading, then pick up either a 430EXII or 580EXII.

....

[anthony11]

I was indeed initially using Av as I've mostly been shooting that way without flash. The owner suggested P, and when I did that, the camera still exposed for ambient light, even when I cranked down the ISO and aperture and fiddled with EC.

It seems counter-intuitive to me that one can't just plug in a flash unit that's rated for 190 feet and have it automagically light up the scene. Is the expose-for-ambient behavior the same way things work in the N-word world?

[sapearl]

I know what you mean - but it's concept of lighting up a scene from a technical standpoint, may not be aesthetically pleasing according to how your mind's eye pictures it.

As I understand all of the Auto modes, I believe they will all try to work from the standpoint of ambient light. They meter it, try to adjust for tones that fall in the area of 18% gray, and then just squirt out enough flash light to fill in shadows and bring up detail a little bit.

I have nothing against the auto modes when I use flash, but I never really know what the camera is thinking for sure. I cannot rely on this unpredictability - and I believe the N people face the same issue. When I do a wedding or event, my shots must be consistent, predictable and repeatable.

So just like pulling the plug on HAL9000, I put it in Manual mode and force it to do what I want.

I was indeed initially using Av as I've mostly been shooting that way without flash. The owner suggested P, and when I did that, the camera still exposed for ambient light, even when I cranked down the ISO and aperture and fiddled with EC.

It seems counter-intuitive to me that one can't just plug in a flash unit that's rated for 190 feet and have it automagically light up the scene. Is the expose-for-ambient behavior the same way things work in the N-word world?

[sapearl]

Anthony - don't know if you've seen it, but here's another thread with sample images that discusses similar issues:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=713681

[RobertZ]

I recently picked up the 5DII for family stuff. Today I took it to my daughter's dance recital and snapped a few pics of my son with my also new 70-200mm f/4 IS. Coming from a G9 and Xsi, I REALLY love this camera.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7216/bobby7409grassedited2.jpg

[anthony11]

Just a sentence: The 5D and 5D2 will shoot just about anything you want, and shoot it well. As for being a dust magnet - not mine.
I'd read that the 5D (classic)'s mirror had a way of gathering dust. The mk2 of course is different.
Were you using Av mode? Av mode exposes for ambient regardless of whether a flash is on or not. If you are trying to underexpose with ambient and light the scene with a flash then Av (and Tv or P) is not your friend. M, medium ISO, medium aperture and set the shutter speed to 1/200.
Initially, yes I was using Av as that's where I usually shoot. The owner always shoots in P, so I tried a few that way. I understand now that for decent indoor shots I need to go M.
So just like pulling the plug on HAL9000, I put it in Manual mode and force it to do what I want.
Understood, though in 2009 with all the electronics in modern cameras it seems counterintuitive. Maybe N-word flash works differently - I've read more than one report that their flash system "just works" and is less fiddly.

[sapearl]

I've actually heard that too Anthony, from more than one pro source... although I don't if that means it's just a little bit better, or tremendously so.

I've had the advantage of "experiencing" manual settings with flash for thousands of exposures, so it's easy for me to say I know how to fudge it or second guess the system. I can appreciate the frustration though of those who have not made so many exposures under a wide variety of circumstances.

......Understood, though in 2009 with all the electronics in modern cameras it seems counterintuitive. Maybe N-word flash works differently - I've read more than one report that their flash system "just works" and is less fiddly.

[anthony11]

I just did a bit of directed searching. Its seems that Canon didn't used to factor distance into flash calculations, so some of this belief may be moot with modern equipment.

There are still lots of differences with off-camera flash -- Canon can't be bothered to put a controller (or in some cases a pop-up flash) in-body and there are operational differences with using multiple off-camera flashes too. I'm sure this matters a great deal to studio shooters, but given the context of this thread, it doesn't to me.

I still sometimes wish I'd gone down the dark path, though. Maybe if Canon improves my gear after I send it in that'll subside.

[meganparkerphoto]

Yes...it definitely takes time and lots of practice!

[ChrisMc73]

Anthony, I got the 5D Mark II for this very reason, to shoot the new born, and family mostly, and I'm new to DSLRs all together! So I'm experiencing the same doubts myself.
I have gotten some good pictures though and look forward to more to come as I get to know my camera!.

I have trouble not knowing much about all the M, Av, Tv settings and basics of photography, so I don't know what is good when/where etc...

Just gonna keep practicing until I get better.

This was mom and son on May 29th, 2009, when Jack was born...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3621/3583799067_7b5870e08d_b.jpg

Then one of the days after he came home...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3625493919_167049b6b2_b.jpg

[anthony11]

I have trouble not knowing much about all the M, Av, Tv settings and basics of photography, so I don't know what is good when/where etc...
The sticky articles at the top of each forum here have good info. Start with this one:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=414088
At first you'll probably want to shoot in Av, Tv, or even P.
Then one of the days after he came home...
IMHO this could have benefitted from more depth of field -- a smaller aperture, say 1 stop, so that mom would be in better focus too. Don't be afraid to raise your ISO to 3200 or even 6400 when shooting indoors without a flash. You want your shutter fast enough to stop motion, probably 1/100 is fine now but as he gets older that'll shrink, depending on what's going on.

[ChrisMc73]

Thanks for the thread, I never knew that was on here!

[sapearl]

Nicely done Chris - perhaps there are some minor technical issues here, but those are truly insignificant in the greater totality of this shot: mom and son right after birth. At such close distances it would have been difficult to get much greater DOF.

To me it's the subject matter and composition of these shots that make them "perfect" in spite of any technical shortcomings they may exhibit. Thanks for sharing :D. - Stu

[anthony11]

Thanks for the thread, I never knew that was on here!

There's a lot of good info in the 'sticky' articles at the head of each forum, and another good resource is here (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/).

The availability of good info and helpful people here and at the-digitial-picture were part of my personal decision to go Canon.

[ChrisMc73]

There's a lot of good info in the 'sticky' articles at the head of each forum, and another good resource is here (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/).

The availability of good info and helpful people here and at the-digitial-picture were part of my personal decision to go Canon.

Same here! I have never been chastised or ridiculed for being a noob and wanting to purchase the 5DMKII and learn and go...this site is hands down my favorite resource along with the other on you've listed. #canonrules

[ChrisMc73]

Nicely done Chris - perhaps there are some minor technical issues here, but those are truly insignificant in the greater totality of this shot: mom and son right after birth. At such close distances it would have been difficult to get much greater DOF.

To me it's the subject matter and composition of these shots that make them "perfect" in spite of any technical shortcomings they may exhibit. Thanks for sharing :D. - Stu

Thanks Stu. I have to tell you all that my son Jack was born 4 weeks early as well, and in those 4 weeks I lost I was going to be learning the basics of my 5DMKII and get to a point where I knew some of the stuff I'm learning now. Since I didn't get that chance, all of these early pictures of him/her were taken in full auto mode, to give me the best chances of decent shots. So I'm just glad I was able to get some good stuff with the help of the full auto mode.

Sorry Anthony, not trying to hijack your thread with my stuff...I apologize.

[anthony11]

Thanks Stu. I have to tell you all that my son Jack was born 4 weeks early as well, and in those 4 weeks I lost I was going to be learning the basics of my 5DMKII and get to a point where I knew some of the stuff I'm learning now. Since I didn't get that chance, all of these early pictures of him/her were taken in full auto mode, to give me the best chances of decent shots. So I'm just glad I was able to get some good stuff with the help of the full auto mode.
Groovy. Mine was only 2 days early, but I didn't get permission to upgrade from my G6 until a bit less than a month ago. For the first month or so I was too busy/wiped to take much but the occasional iPhone shot, and quickly found that the G6 just didn't cut it indoors, especially for things that move.
Sorry Anthony, not trying to hijack your thread with my stuff...I apologize.
No problemo - it's all about helping each other and discussing our results.
I have never been chastised or ridiculed for being a noob and wanting to purchase the 5DMKII and learn and go...
I sure have. Mind you, jackasses of that sort are the minority, but in any online context there will always be some. I think mostly it comes from people who think that high-end gear makes them l337 and stand out from mortals. Me, I don't give a rat's ass (and trust me, I know more about rat asses than you'd believe) about status -- I just want great photos of my family.

[ChrisMc73]

Here is another one of my favorites I took of Jack...Anthony's avatar picture reminded me of this one.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3590638512_be0ec522bc.jpg

[anthony11]

Nice! I wish I'd had my 5D2 at that age. My avatar was taken with my iPhone as he lay on my chest -- he slept there for the first three months.

[Stella B]

Nice! I wish I'd had my 5D2 at that age. My avatar was taken with my iPhone as he lay on my chest -- he slept there for the first three months.

;)

Sweet.

That is the spot of choice for my girl, too...(her Daddy's chest).

btw--great thread!

[ChrisMc73]

Yeah, Jack is starting to only like being held and falling asleep on our chests. Guess I'm heading down that road.

[anthony11]

Yeah, Jack is starting to only like being held and falling asleep on our chests. Guess I'm heading down that road.

For roughly the first three months, you do whatever it takes. Karp's "fourth trimester" model has a fair amount of truth in it. Think about it -- warm, dark, and cozy for 9.5 months, then wham! out into a cold, bright realm bereft of reassuring sounds and touch. Pretty much the only time mine wasn't being held for the first 3-4 months was when he was being changed. Swaddling was the magic that got him to first tolerate sleeping in his crib, and we've only been able to get him to sleep without it for the past couple of weeks, starting at roughly the 8 month point.

[ChrisMc73]

Love that red hair!

[overclock]

My favorite lens on the 5DII is the 70-200 2.8 IS. I shot with it for several hours on July 4th and loved every minute of it. Sharp as a tack with excellent focusing. Highly recommend one. Try renting one first to see if you'll like it.

[anthony11]

With the rumors of a new revision of the 70-200 2.8 IS coming RSN I'm going to wait and see before purchasing a longer lens. I do like the range of the 70-300, but not the aperture. I briefly stuck a 70-200 f/4 on my body and found it plenty light -- I guess after adjusting to the heft of the 5D2 it seems natural to have everything else heavy. I'd expected the apparent magnification @ 200 to be more, though -- after some reading it seems that as the focal length increases, the incremental increase in image size lessens.