I can't freeze motion

[Sibil]

No matter what I try, I can't freeze motion, or get crisp photos. My keeper rate with basketball shots are really poor. I have read about all the techniques and yet I can't get it right.

What am I doing wrong? Below is a 100% crop of where the focus point was. Is it motion blurr or what?

Please give me some clues.

40D
Center point focus and AI-servo
ISO 1600
SS = 1/500
Aperture = 2.8

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_4470-100-crop.jpg

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/Clipboard01.jpg

[stathunter]

It appears that the sides are in focus and the center point is blurred. I wonder if your lens is back focusing. Would need more samples to figure that out.

EDIT= what lens are you using?

[GeoffSobering]

I agree with stathunter, it looks like incorrect focus, and certainly not motion blur.

My favorite focus test chart : http://focustestchart.com/chart.html
(just ignore the references to the D70, it's totally generic)

Cheers,

Geoff S.

[Sibil]

It appears that the sides are in focus and the center point is blurred. I wonder if your lens is back focusing. Would need more samples to figure that out.

EDIT= what lens are you using?

I can get more samples. Do you need 100% crop of where the center focus was, similar to the example I posted above?

I took about 250 pictures of this particular game and I'd say over 90% are like this one.

I used Canon 28-70 f/2.8. I have had similar results with 50/1.8, 17-55/2.8, and 24-105/4.0. I have had better luck with the 85/1.8, but not by much.

[Sibil]

I agree with stathunter, it looks like incorrect focus, and certainly not motion blur.

My favorite focus test chart : http://focustestchart.com/chart.html


I was upset with the results, so the next day I did a quick and dirty focus test, pic shown below. It's a 100% crop at center. What do you think?

Same lens ( 28-70/f2.8 ) at 50mm
Center focus point
ISO 400
SS = 1/640
Aperture = 2.8
Camera on tripod at 45 degree angle

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/2870-f28-100crop.jpg

[BenJohnson]

I don't know if the photo and crop were in the original post when you made it, but it
seems obvious that you missed focus on that shot. The player happens to be in the dead
center of the frame, but sometime during the tracking of the shot the aim got far
enough off, that the camera/lens focused on the people in the stands.

You can see that the spectators are obviously sharper than the players. This indicates
it's not a microfocus/back-focus issue. Then you would be off by an inch or two at the
most at that distance, not off by 50ft. The crop of the ruler you posted looks fairly
good. Possibly a hair of back focus, but nothing even close to what would make the first
photo look that OOF.

Hope that helped! Maybe try a person standing at a similar distance and take a shot.
The 100% crop of that should be similar to the ruler, NOT the first shot.

[kgoings]

Curious, were you shooting continuous? Was this a single shot or did you press and hold? I could be that this is the second or third shot in a series and the camera didn't keep up with the focusing as your panning and the subject is moving. Are you using AI Servo?

[BenJohnson]

Curious, were you shooting continuous? Was this a single shot or did you press and hold? I could be that this is the second or third shot in a series and the camera didn't keep up with the focusing as your panning and the subject is moving. Are you using AI Servo?
He stated it was center point AI Servo. If the AF was "not keeping up" then it would be
slightly backfocused to an area the player had just run through. The photo posted
is focused on the background, ie. focus lock missed the player (most likely due to aim).

[rdompor]

Because of the fact that focus was missed so badly here, I have to agree that the culprit is most likely technique. See if you have any focus issues when shooting something static in decent light. This should help to eliminate any focus issue.

[Sibil]

Below are more sample pictures as requested. The settings are all the same as the first picture, with the shutter speed either 1/400 or 1/500

Pic 2 (action)

100% crop at center
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/2nd-100crop.jpg

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/2ndsample.jpg

Pic 3 (action)

100% crop at center
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/3rd-100crop.jpg

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/3rd-sample.jpg

Pic 4 (not much player movement)

100% crop at center
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/4th-sample-100crop.jpg

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/4thsample.jpg

Pic 5 (not much player movement)

100% crop at center
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/5th-100crop.jpg

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/5thsample.jpg

[Sibil]

Pic 6 (Another ruler focus test shot with a different lens)

Lens = 50mm/f1.4
ISO 400
SS = 1/640
Aperture = 2.8

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/50-f28-100crop.jpg

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/2ndruler.jpg

[Sibil]

Thanks for all the feedback and analysis.

The way I see it, the problem can be one of the following three.

Defective camera
Wrong camera setting
Wrong camera handling technique

For the first one (defective camera), after seeing my focus test shots, I drove down to Irvine Canon Service Center and dropped my camera off for checking. Even if the camera is back-focusing, I can’t believe I miss the shots that far off due to back-focusing. Some of you, of course, pointed that out.

For the second one (wrong camera setting), I have been searching the POTN threads and have been trying different settings to no good results. I’ll continue on this to see what else I can find out. Could some of you share exactly all the settings for your xxD body for sports shooting, especially any custom functions?

For the third one (wrong camera handling technique), I think this is probably the largest contributor to my problem, as some of you pointed out, but I really don’t know what I’m doing wrong as far as handling is concerned. How come the shots that have hardly any movement come out so out of focus (see the two examples above)? Would someone please detail out how exactly you hold, point, pan, hit the shutter, etc, your camera when shooting sports? The problem is probably myself not being able to maintain focus on the players. But how do I do that?

Again, thanks for all the feedback

[preveen]

Something you can try. Since your shooting Av stop the aperture down a notch. It could be that the lens is just a bit soft wide open. You probably wont need 1/500 to stop the motion anyway.

Interesting, No7 actually looks like a young Lindsey Whalen :)

[J.Napier]

Sibil,
Just curious are you using the back button to focus or the half press the shutter button?
I use a 1D2N as my second body and it is harder to press the back button than it is to do the same on my 1DM3. I seem to really have to press harder and concentrate to make sure that I am doing so.
pacdzyne

[rdompor]

Something you can try. Since your shooting Av stop the aperture down a notch. It could be that the lens is just a bit soft wide open. You probably wont need 1/500 to stop the motion anyway.

Interesting, No7 actually looks like a young Lindsey Whalen :)

There is an obvious difference in sharpness between the focus point and background and 1/500 is minimal to stop motion.

[Sibil]

Sibil,
Just curious are you using the back button to focus or the half press the shutter button?
I use a 1D2N as my second body and it is harder to press the back button than it is to do the same on my 1DM3. I seem to really have to press harder and concentrate to make sure that I am doing so.
pacdzyne

For this game, I used mostly the AF-ON back botton. I have a hard time reaching it well enough with my hand and I agree with you that I could've been letting it go. I'll stick with the half-press on the shutter, or move the AF-ON to star '*', for the next game.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[DDCSD]

I didn't see if you answered the question as to whether or not you were using burst on these shots.

That ruler shot with the 28-70 looks terrible compared to the one with the 50.

I do think that technique is mostly to blame here, but I'm wondering about that lens (looks really soft, even for being wide open).

I believe you can switch your AF to the * button on the 40D. You may want to try that, as it is much easier to reach than the AF-ON button. You were either really missing your target in between shots or your finger was slipping off the AF button.

[Sibil]

I didn't see if you answered the question as to whether or not you were using burst on these shots.

That ruler shot with the 28-70 looks terrible compared to the one with the 50.

I do think that technique is mostly to blame here, but I'm wondering about that lens (looks really soft, even for being wide open).

I believe you can switch your AF to the * button on the 40D. You may want to try that, as it is much easier to reach than the AF-ON button. You were either really missing your target in between shots or your finger was slipping off the AF button.

Sorry about the delay on the answers. On the 3 action shots I posted, they were part of a burst sequence, but not the still shots.

I agree that the 28-70 is very soft. I took that lens with me to Canon center for sheck-out. They suggetsed that wait until I get the camera back and then decide I want it calibrated. The cost estimate is $158.

Yes, I am beginning to think that my finger was the blame. I have plenty of opportunity to practice this weekend. I have at least 3 other games to shoot. Woot woot.

[Sibil]

I got a call this morning that my camera is ready for pickup, so I drove to the Service Center and picked it up at lunch.

Here is what the paper said:


We have examined the product according to your request, and, causing rear focus. Electrical adjustments were carried out on the AF assembly. Checked resolution. Other electrical adjustments and inspection and cleaning were carried out.


My hat is off to the Canon Center. I asked if they could expedite the service on my camera since I needed the camera back for the weekend. I even offered to pay for the fast service I was asking for. They didn't take any payment for faster service and their turn-around time was around 24 hours. Wow, what a service.

[DDCSD]

I'd try putting the AF on * button. Also, take it out of burst mode for a while and concentrate on tracking your subject and take a single shot. Be sure to follow through and keep the shutter and AF button pressed as you follow the subject after that single shot.

You can use burst at times, but please try single shot for at least a couple of quarters. You may be surprised at the results.

[DDCSD]

I got a call this morning that my camera is ready for pickup, so I drove to the Service Center and picked it up at lunch.

Here is what the paper said:


We have examined the product according to your request, and, causing rear focus. Electrical adjustments were carried out on the AF assembly. Checked resolution. Other electrical adjustments and inspection and cleaning were carried out.


My hat is off to the Canon Center. I asked if they could expedite the service on my camera since I needed the camera back for the weekend. I even offered to pay for the fast service I was asking for. They didn't take any payment for faster service and their turn-around time was around 24 hours. Wow, what a service.

I wish I could drive over to the service center. :cry:

[Sibil]

I'd try putting the AF on * button. Also, take it out of burst mode for a while and concentrate on tracking your subject and take a single shot. Be sure to follow through and keep the shutter and AF button pressed as you follow the subject after that single shot.

You can use burst at times, but please try single shot for at least a couple of quarters. You may be surprised at the results.

Will do

[J.Napier]

Here is what the paper said:


We have examined the product according to your request, and, causing rear focus. Electrical adjustments were carried out on the AF assembly. Checked resolution. Other electrical adjustments and inspection and cleaning were carried out.



So when will you get a chance to try the newly ajusted equipment out?
Anxious (sp) to see how it turns out.

pacdzyne

[Sibil]

So when will you get a chance to try the newly ajusted equipment out?
Anxious (sp) to see how it turns out.

pacdzyne

Tomorrow

[Sibil]

I don’t have much of a glaring success story to report on. I shot two games yesterday but had a few problems. The gym I found myself in is my No.1 hated gym; a dungeon of a gym with lights that have a very strong orange color to them. And 2-3 doors that let enough exterior light in that screw up white balance royally. A nightmare for shutter speed and white balance.

As recommended, I didn’t use burst mode, and switched the AF-ON button to the star ‘*’ button, which really had me struggling (lots of missed/OOF shots) since my finger kept searching for the AF-ON, out of habit.

Below are three sample shots. They look somewhat better (sharper) but not by much. What do you think?

Pic 7
Center point focus and AI-servo, manual exposure, back button focus
AF-ON switched to ‘*’
Lens = 50/f1.4
ISO 1600
SS = 1/500
Aperture = 2.2
CWB

100% center crop
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_4743-7-100crop.jpg

Pic 8
Center point focus and AI-servo, manual exposure, back button focus
AF-ON switched to ‘*’
Lens = 85/f1.8
ISO 1600
SS = 1/500
Aperture = 2.2
CWB

100% center crop
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_4807-8-100crop.jpg

Pic 9
Center point focus and AI-servo, manual exposure, half-shutter press focus
Lens = 28-70/2.8
ISO 3200
SS = 1/500
Aperture = 2.8
CWB

100% center crop
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_4898-9-100crop.jpg

[KIPAX]

when shooting at iso 3200 as you are doing i find best results are if you over expose slightly.. you dont seem to be nailing the exposure let alone over..

[DDCSD]

As far as sharpness goes, I think those look pretty darn good. At ISO 1600 & 3200, images will look much less sharp, its just the nature of the beast. I've been much happier with my high ISO shots since I quit peeping them all at 100%. And most of what I shoot is at ISO1600. If it looks good at full screen, it will look good printed nice and big.

[cdifoto]

When your focus point is about the size of the subject or larger than the subject, the camera can be fooled very easily, especially when the subject is primarily white.

Wait until the kids get closer.

[Sibil]

when shooting at iso 3200 as you are doing i find best results are if you over expose slightly.. you dont seem to be nailing the exposure let alone over..

I agree and try to do the same. I had the EV at +1/3. That gym is a cave.

Thanks for that reminder though ;)

Cheers

[J.Napier]

Sibil,
Have tried any action shots outside at all? Just curious? See what your results are there. I agree with the last three post also. The numbers on the jerseys are realetivly crisp just seam a bit noisy, it may just be the limits of the lens itself. Were you using the 85 or the 50?
pacdzyne

[Sibil]

Sibil,
Have tried any action shots outside at all? Just curious? See what your results are there. I agree with the last three post also. The numbers on the jerseys are realetivly crisp just seam a bit noisy, it may just be the limits of the lens itself. Were you using the 85 or the 50?
pacdzyne

I am not sure if I have action shots from outside since I picked up the camera from The Service Center just at the end of last week. I'll look what I took this weekend and if there is an example, I'll post if that helps clarify anything.

I found myself in the cave again, yesterday, and used the 85/1.8 for the whole game. Below are 2 examples of shots I was happy with.

Pic 10
Center point focus and AI-servo, Av, half-shutter press focus
Lens = 85/1.8
ISO 1600
SS = 1/320
Aperture = 2.2
CWB

Minor cropping and post processing, no noise reduction or sharpening
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_5122-pp.jpg

Pic 11
Center point focus and AI-servo, Av, half-shutter press focus
Lens = 85/1.8
ISO 1600
SS = 1/400
Aperture = 2.0
CWB

Minor cropping and post processing, no noise reduction or sharpening
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_5096-pp.jpg

[clarence]

On the first picture, the shield logo on her jersey and her shoe look sharp.
On the second picture, the logo on the basketball looks sharp, and the dark-haired girl's right shoe.

If these were wide-open at f/1.8, the DoF should be very thin, as expected.

SS of 1/320" and 1/400" is marginal for BB. Did you take any at 3200?

[Sibil]

SS of 1/320" and 1/400" is marginal for BB. Did you take any at 3200?

No, for the last game I stayed with ISO 1600. I am afraid, my kids play in gyms where most of you pro level shooters would, as the saying goes, put the camera down and enjoy the game.

[J.Napier]

[quote=clarence;7946853]On the first picture, the shield logo on her jersey and her shoe look sharp.

On the second picture, the logo on the basketball looks sharp, and the dark-haired girl's right shoe.

These elements are pretty much all on the same plane and I think it was a good/lucky timing that sibil caught the ball at or near the apex of the dribble. I think the thin DOF is mostly the culprit also, even the lighter haired girls face in #1 is pretty sharp. Just some noise to contend with.
I also think that 320-400 SS is borderline fast enough to stop the action in this environment.
I do think that these shots are better than the first examples provided.
Keep at it Sibil practice,practice, practice. And when you can upgrade your lens. When I first started using the back button I struggled a bit as well but once I got used to it my keeper rate went up becuse of it.
Some people just dont like it though and never will, to me it made it easier to adjust my single point focus on the fly alot easier as well.
Again I would try some random shots maybe of the kids kicking a soccer ball around outside and see what those results look like.
If you can learn to shoot in a dungeon, when you do have light you will be amazed at how good your shots really are. I find that out every year it seems after shooting alot of cheer during the winter months and then Baseball comes along.
pacdzyne

[Sibil]

I want to thank all of you for staying with my thread and with your comments and suggestions. They are very useful to me.


[quote=clarence;7946853] And when you can upgrade your lens.

Again I would try some random shots maybe of the kids kicking a soccer ball around outside and see what those results look like.
pacdzyne

What lens should I upgrade to? I am ready, but apparently 2.8 lenses don't cut it in the gyms I shoot in. I have been thinking about the 100 and 135 mm lenses. The 100mm is affordable, but the 135L is kind of too expensive for a single purpose prime.

Since you asked for outdoor action shot examples, below are three from my first month's of the 40D ownership. Do they tell you anything about my shooting technique, errors, room for improvement, and so on?

After shooting a few games with the 24-105, I put my 40D away since the lens is not long enough for soccer and went back to my Lumix FZ-50 for shooting soccer.

Pic 12
Center point focus and AI-servo, Av, half-shutter press focus
Lens = 24-105/f4.0
ISO 400
SS = 1/2500
Aperture = 4.0

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_0833-crop.jpg

Pic 13
Center point focus and AI-servo, Av, half-shutter press focus
Lens = 24-105/f4.0
ISO 200
SS = 1/2500
Aperture = 4.5


http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_0605-crop.jpg

Pic 14
Center point focus and AI-servo, Av, half-shutter press focus
Lens = 24-105/f4.0
ISO 200
SS = 1/2000
Aperture = 4.5

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/Mirook/IMG_0632-crop.jpg

[DDCSD]

No, for the last game I stayed with ISO 1600. I am afraid, my kids play in gyms where most of you pro level shooters would, as the saying goes, put the camera down and enjoy the game.

Not sure if I qualify as pro-level, but I'd set up my Alien Bees instead of putting down the camera! :lol:

[stathunter]

I had a 40D and had to send mine back to Canon a few times for a similar issue-- I used mine as a remote backup camera and could never really get it where I wanted it -- and Canon eventually sent me a new one-- but by then I was ticked off and sold it immediately before trying it out.
I am glad I was remotely correct when I guessed the backfocus--- this new issue seems like it is a bit soft -- the lenses you are using a pretty sharp -- but I always use a 70-200 2.8 IS or 300L for sports--- both of my lenses are sharp and my bodies have no issues.

I would contact Canon again and tell them your issues--- they should by now know what the problems are.

[Sibil]

I had a 40D and had to send mine back to Canon a few times for a similar issue--

............this new issue seems like it is a bit soft -- the lenses you are using a pretty sharp --

I would contact Canon again and tell them your issues--- they should by now know what the problems are.

Are you referring to the soccer shots being soft?

[stathunter]

No -- sorry I was referring to the above basketball -- the soccer is pretty sharp-- they are crops right?

[Sibil]

No -- sorry I was referring to the above basketball -- the soccer is pretty sharp-- they are crops right?

Yes, they are crops

[stathunter]

Yep -- for crops they are good -- I am an anal sharp freak myself so I like to see my photos super sharp--- that has led me to pro bodies and lots of L glass.