Trouble getting stable lighting

[colormaniac]

Hi, I am new to strobe lighting and run into the following problem. I wonder if I can get some advice here.

I have an Alienbee 400 on the left and then a 430EX flash on the right. I use ST-E2 to trigger the flash, which would trigger the Alienbee. There is no trouble triggering then. After a few times of trials, I found a good balance, not too bright, not too dark. Then I asked my friend to pose for some serious pictures. However, then the next picture was a lot darker. It's the same setting, just a few seconds apart. It's Alienbee, not cheap and unreliable stuff. What's wrong?



Camera Model Name
Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XSi
Firmware
Firmware Version 1.0.4
Shooting Date/Time
5/14/2009 17:05:25
Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/125Sec.
Av(Aperture Value)
F2.8
Metering Modes
Evaluative metering
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
100
Lens
EF-S17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM
Focal Length
55.0 mm
Image size
4272 x 2848
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
On
White Balance
Auto
AF mode
One-Shot AF
Picture Style
Portlait

[Rudi]

Make sure your 430EX is in MANUAL mode, otherwise the preflash is likely fooling the AB into firing prematurely. Other than that, don't fire until the AB is fully recycled (not sure if the AB's do, but some strobes will let you trigger them before they have completely recharged, and the result will be underexposure).

[colormaniac]

Oh, I can't recall whether the flash is in manual mode or not. But I have never seen that kind of pre-flash triggering my Alienbee.

Yes, maybe it's the recycle problem. Usually how long does it take to recycle?

[Rudi]

Should only be a second or two to recycle, so that is a long shot, but just in case. :)

P.S. Your camera was in manual mode too, right?

[colormaniac]

Yes, the camera was set to manual, as I usually do.

[ootsk]

Your exif info says you were in TV mode with your camera. Make sure your flash is in manual mode as well. With studio lighting where there is a "dumb" flash (the AB) it's best to have all flashes dumb.
What I see based on shooting in TV is the camera is trying to expose for what it sees when you focus, which is a dark scene. Whe you take the picture, the flashes trigger...and while the AB is dumb and putting out the light it's told by the slider on the back, the camera is desperately trying to get the proper exposure with it's own flash, the 430, using ettl. You may get a nice balance, but as soon as you put a subject there, and depending on what brightness clothes they're wearing, your ettl flash is going to go crazy trying to compensate for the AB.

Camera=Manual
430 =Manual
AB =Manual

[colormaniac]

Your exif info says you were in TV mode with your camera. Make sure your flash is in manual mode as well. With studio lighting where there is a "dumb" flash (the AB) it's best to have all flashes dumb.
What I see based on shooting in TV is the camera is trying to expose for what it sees when you focus, which is a dark scene. Whe you take the picture, the flashes trigger...and while the AB is dumb and putting out the light it's told by the slider on the back, the camera is desperately trying to get the proper exposure with it's own flash, the 430, using ettl. You may get a nice balance, but as soon as you put a subject there, and depending on what brightness clothes they're wearing, your ettl flash is going to go crazy trying to compensate for the AB.

Camera=Manual
430 =Manual
AB =Manual

Oh, really? I must have accidentally turned it to Tv. :oops::mad:
(By the way, how to tell from the EXIT that it's Tv?)

My friend was sitting there throughout the session. So, there is no change in the change in color or reflectiveness of the subject.



Thankfully, when now I'm adjusting those pictures in PhotoShop, most pictures turned out to be OK. It just takes me time.

[ootsk]

Hi, I am new to strobe lighting and run into the following problem. I wonder if I can get some advice here.

I have an Alienbee 400 on the left and then a 430EX flash on the right. I use ST-E2 to trigger the flash, which would trigger the Alienbee. There is no trouble triggering then. After a few times of trials, I found a good balance, not too bright, not too dark. Then I asked my friend to pose for some serious pictures. However, then the next picture was a lot darker. It's the same setting, just a few seconds apart. It's Alienbee, not cheap and unreliable stuff. What's wrong?



Camera Model Name
Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XSi
Firmware
Firmware Version 1.0.4
Shooting Date/Time
5/14/2009 17:05:25
Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/125Sec.
Av(Aperture Value) <++++++++++++++++++++++++THIS++++++++++++++
F2.8
Metering Modes
Evaluative metering
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
100
Lens
EF-S17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM
Focal Length
55.0 mm
Image size
4272 x 2848
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
On
White Balance
Auto
AF mode
One-Shot AF
Picture Style
Portlait

WEll, basically anytime the distance changes or brightness changes, the camera tries to compensate for it. Manual mode will solve your problems.

[Curtis N]

Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/125Sec.
Av(Aperture Value)
F2.8There's nothing in the EXIF data posted to indicate the camera mode. Tv means time value, Av means aperture value. Those stats will appear, regardless of camera mode.

[Shoewrecky]

I just got the rebel XSi and noticed that your Firmware is older than mine. I am not sure if that will make a difference at all though I did want to give you my 2 cents. (My firmware is 1.10)
.
.
Here's the link
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=DownloadDetailTabAct&fcategoryid=325&modelid=16303

[Titus213]

I'm not familiar enough with the ST-E2 but won't that fire the AB unit too? What sort of communication goes on between the ST-E2 and the flash prior to tripping the flash?

[colormaniac]

I'm not familiar enough with the ST-E2 but won't that fire the AB unit too? What sort of communication goes on between the ST-E2 and the flash prior to tripping the flash?

Oh, does it? Well, I'll have to study the AB manual more carefully to find it out.

[Rudi]

I don't think so. The ST-E2 is an infra-red device, it will not trigger anything but Canon flashes.

[colormaniac]

I just got the rebel XSi and noticed that your Firmware is older than mine. I am not sure if that will make a difference at all though I did want to give you my 2 cents. (My firmware is 1.10)
.
.
Here's the link
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=DownloadDetailTabAct&fcategoryid=325&modelid=16303
Yes, I'm aware of the old firmware. I can't recall the exact reason but at that time I noticed that the newer firmware does not improve what I need. Anyway, I should update it...

[Curtis N]

I don't think so. The ST-E2 is an infra-red device, it will not trigger anything but Canon flashes.Not correct.

Generally, monolight slave sensors can be triggered by IR. Some people use the ST-E2 with some of the contacts taped, specifically for triggering monolights.

We know that if the ST-E2 is being used to trigger a flash in E-TTL mode, it will fire a command flash to trigger the slave's pre-flash before the shutter opens. This tends to fire "dumb" monolights prematurely. What I'm not sure of is if it will do the same in manual flash mode.

[Rudi]

Curtis, have you heard of anyone who uses the ST-E2 to trigger their studio flash?

[Curtis N]

Curtis, have you heard of anyone who uses the ST-E2 to trigger their studio flash?Here's a few threads that refer to the technique:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=248550
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=634005
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=396204

[Rudi]

Wow. That looks like the hard way to do something easy. :D

[Curtis N]

Well, a few years ago, the only reliable radio triggers were PocketWizards and they would cost you nearly $400 for a pair. So at that time, the ST-E2 was a cheaper way to cut the cord.

Nowadays, with Skyports and Cybersyncs for less than $200 a set, the ST-E2 is not so viable as an alternative.

[Rudi]

That's not what I meant. Usually, if one owns the ST-E2, they also own a flash to be triggered. Triggering the flash and having the monolights trigger optically off the flash seems like an easier thing to do than taping pins, especially if you're going to use the speedlite in your lighting setup anyway. But... interesting that it works. Unlikely that I will ever use that trick, but good to learn something new. :)

[Titus213]

The argument I've heard is that flash units weigh too much. The ST-E2 is very light weight and still has focus assist.

[Rudi]

I understand, Dave, I was thinking more of the instance where the speedlite was used as a hair light or background light, then taping pins on the ST-E2 would be the hard way to do things. :) IMO, it's still the hard way to do things even compared to simply using a flash in the hot shoe, but that might just be me. :D

[Titus213]

No, not you. I use radio triggers and a meter.

[René Damkot]

Make sure your 430EX is in MANUAL mode

I don't think an ST-E2 will allow manual mode on the flash, so that would be the problem.

[Rudi]

I don't think an ST-E2 will allow manual mode on the flash, so that would be the problem.

Actually it does, it's just not obvious as to how to go about it. I was under the same impression for a long time, then someone told me to RTFM, and lo-and-behold - it told me how to do it! :)

[johnboy00]

Unless you're gonna have an all-Canon-flash studio, I'd sell the ST-E2 and get an AB CyberSync trigger/receiver pair and some white foam board. If you have a few hundred more dollars to spare, get another AB strobe and stand.

[egordon99]

If the flash is NOT in manual mode, it is in E-TTL and the camera's meter determined that power to fire it at, and there is no way to determine what power it fired at, and chances are it fired at different power levels from the test shots to the actual shots with your subject.

So I bet 10 bucks that this is the problem. :lol:

Oh, I can't recall whether the flash is in manual mode or not. But I have never seen that kind of pre-flash triggering my Alienbee.

Yes, maybe it's the recycle problem. Usually how long does it take to recycle?

[colormaniac]

If the flash is NOT in manual mode, it is in E-TTL and the camera's meter determined that power to fire it at, and there is no way to determine what power it fired at, and chances are it fired at different power levels from the test shots to the actual shots with your subject.

So I bet 10 bucks that this is the problem. :lol:

Sounds like the best explanation so far. :)

But how comes the ST-E2 has no way to determine the power to fire the flash when it is in ETTL?

[colormaniac]

Not correct.

Generally, monolight slave sensors can be triggered by IR. Some people use the ST-E2 with some of the contacts taped, specifically for triggering monolights.

We know that if the ST-E2 is being used to trigger a flash in E-TTL mode, it will fire a command flash to trigger the slave's pre-flash before the shutter opens. This tends to fire "dumb" monolights prematurely. What I'm not sure of is if it will do the same in manual flash mode.

I tested today and found that even without any tape my ST-E2 can trigger the AlienBee. In that setup, I did not use any Speedlite. So, it is only ST-E2 that is the possible cause of trigger.

[Rudi]

I tested today and found that even without any tape my ST-E2 can trigger the AlienBee. In that setup, I did not use any Speedlite. So, it is only ST-E2 that is the possible cause of trigger.

Are you getting good exposures though? I'd be worried about the STE-2 trying to communicate E-TTL and triggering the AB prematurely. But, if your exposures look OK, then you're good. :)

[colormaniac]

Are you getting good exposures though? I'd be worried about the STE-2 trying to communicate E-TTL and triggering the AB prematurely. But, if your exposures look OK, then you're good. :)

That's certainly not premature pre-flash trigger. And the exposure was OK after a few trials and errors.

Take a look at this picture. The AlienBee 400 is on my left. The right side is sunlight.

(My next problem is that the AlienBee 400 seems unable to produce a brighter left side.)

[colormaniac]

Hm... I still cannot get a stable lighting. Tonight I tried my studio setting by doing self-shooting (thus it's not always in focus). I used one AB400 (camera left) and two Speedlites (one as kicker light and another one pointing to the background) to set up the usual 3-light portrait. All are triggered by ST-E2 (or maybe the AB is triggered by the Speedlites). Shutter speed is 1/100-1/250. I found a good proportion of lights after many trials. Then I tried to use the same lighting with better poses, wondering if I could accidentally get nice pictures of myself. However, then I found that the AB400 and even a Speedlite is not always responsive. It certainly is not due to recharge time because between each shot there was 10+ seconds, since the self-timer is set to 10 sec.

[apersson850]

Let's see, if I get you right you have this:

On camera: ST-E2 as master.
Off camera "kicker": Canon Speedlite xxx EX as slave (Canon wireless, group A).
Background light: Canon Speedlite xxx EX as slave (Canon wireless, group B).
Off camera "left": AB400 as slave (optical sensor).

Is this correct?

If so, I would assume that the AB400 trigs from the command pulses from the master or from E-TTL response flashes from the Speedlite slaves. I don't have any ST-E2 (I use a 580 EX II as a master instead), but I think the ST-E2 can't command flashes in manual mode, right?
Anyway, if my suspicion is correct, the problem is that you are using Canon's wireless system without using all Canon's Speedlite units. The "bastard" flash disturbs communication with your Speedlites.

[colormaniac]

Thanks for your response! I appreciate that.

"ST-E2 can't command flashes in manual mode"? Really? I should re-read the manual now.

I did changed the Speedlites to Manual -3 in order to get weaker light from them. However, I did it to BOTH Speedlites but it looked like that the hair light was working. Just the background light down.

Your last sentence goes: "The "bastard" flash disturbs communication with your Speedlites." Do you mean the bastard flash disturbs communication with the AB400? (I don't mean to be meticulous on language but, since I am learn something I don't know much, I would like to make sure I understand completely.) But isn't one Speedlite be enough to trigger the optical slave, i.e., AB400?

By the way, I forgot to mention that there was a reflector on camera right.

[colormaniac]

I think I got it now. I misunderstood preflash and how to set the Speedlite to manual. The simplest solution is to cover up the preflash emitter or the 4 pins.

Tonight when it is dark enough, I'll experiment again. (My muslin hangs over the window. So, I have to wait until the sun goes down.)

Sorry for asking silly questions.

[apersson850]

As far as I know, the ST-E2 can't set slaves to manual mode. But I don't have any ST-E2, so I may be mistaken here.
I wasn't. I just read a manual for the ST-E2. It can only control slaves in E-TTL mode. If you want the slaves to use manual mode, you have to force that on the slave. This is different compared to using a 580 EX II as a master. If you set such a master to manual, all slaves also convert to manual mode. Still, you can force a slave into manual mode with such a master as well.

If you set the slaves to manual mode, you don't set any -3 or something. You set a ratio, like 1/32 (of full power). -3 looks like Flash Exposure Compensation. I'm not sure what happens if you dial that in on a slave itself. I prefer to set that through the master, so I don't have to run around to the specific slaves all the time.

By "bastard" flash I mean your AB400, as it's not a full member of Canon's wireless flash system. The problem is indeed that one Speedlite can trigger the AB400. But then the AB400 will fire, something which will mess up the communication phase in the wireless flash system.
Take a look at the image representing the flow of information in a wireless flash system (from Canon's web site (http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/infobank/flash/wireless_flash.do#container)). You can see from the image that there are several flashes emitted by different flash guns, before the final flashes, that illuminate the image, fires. I think your problem is that your AB400 doesn't know how to behave in this system, so it fires at the wrong moment, thus interfering with the information flow in the wireless flash system. Try borrowing another Canon flash (I assume you don't own any more of them) to replace the AB400 with, for the moment. Just to see if that solves the problem.

[colormaniac]

Thanks for all your help! Now I learned how to avoid the problem. Previous I took the blinking infrared to be the preflash. But it should be the one right before the flash. Also, I mistook the exposure adjustment to be manual exposure adjustment. Now I took some pictures which have no more lighting problem. See here. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8157380#post8157380

By the way, people said that you can stop ST-E2 from doing the preflash by taping the 4 pins. But actually a much easier method is to just cover the AF-assist beam emitter with a piece of paper. That will do the trick.

[apersson850]

That's two separate things.

The intense red AF assist beam is emitted through the lower optics on the ST-E2 or 580 EX II master. It's emitted only if you have set your flash' and camera's custom functions to allow it, and you are focusing in dark surroundings using One Shot AF.

The pre-flash is emitted through the upper optics on the master. If you use an ST-E2, it's near infrared and barely visible. If you use an ordinary flash as master (580 EX II or similar), it's a bright white pulse, as it comes from the normal flash tube. As long as you use E-TTL, you can't get rid of the pre-flash. It will flash either immediately before the normal flash, or when you press the FEL/* button, if you use Flash Exposure Lock. The pre-flash is used for flash light metering, something which is necessary for automatic flash operation according to the E-TTL principle.

If you set the master flash to manual mode (works with 580 EX II, but not with ST-E2), then no pre-flash is emitted, as there is no metering to do.

[colormaniac]

That's two separate things.

The intense red AF assist beam is emitted through the lower optics on the ST-E2 or 580 EX II master. It's emitted only if you have set your flash' and camera's custom functions to allow it, and you are focusing in dark surroundings using One Shot AF.

The pre-flash is emitted through the upper optics on the master. If you use an ST-E2, it's near infrared and barely visible. If you use an ordinary flash as master (580 EX II or similar), it's a bright white pulse, as it comes from the normal flash tube. As long as you use E-TTL, you can't get rid of the pre-flash. It will flash either immediately before the normal flash, or when you press the FEL/* button, if you use Flash Exposure Lock. The pre-flash is used for flash light metering, something which is necessary for automatic flash operation according to the E-TTL principle.

If you set the master flash to manual mode (works with 580 EX II, but not with ST-E2), then no pre-flash is emitted, as there is no metering to do.

Thanks, Anders, for pointing this out! Then I'll do the 4-pin thing. But even if I failed to stop the preflash, somehow last night there was no such trouble anymore.

[apersson850]

You can't do the 4-pin thing. If you do that, your remote Canon Speedlites will no longer work, as they rely on the multiple pre-flashes for setup and measuring information, when using Canon's wireless flash system.

That's the drawback of mixing those compatible with a proprietary wireless system with "dumb" slaves.

[colormaniac]

For a while yesterday, I did cover the 4 pins and the Speedlites were working fine (in manual mode). And I could still focus on the subject. Maybe the piece of paper is not thick enough to block the electric current. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'll forget the theoretical issues. As long as I can control the lighting to my satisfaction and I can reproduce the same effect easily, it's good enough. :)

[apersson850]

In manual mode perhaps it works. But I still would expect the Canon flashes, that are set as slaves, not to turn on unless they get the proper coded pre-flash. How else would the concept of four different channels work, if the master can't communicate properly with the camera, so that the wireless system is fully operational?

Doesn't make sense.

[colormaniac]

Yes, it's certainly not the most desirable studio lighting solution. However, I sometimes take pictures in other locations and a simple "ST-E2 and two speedlites" kit is desirable there.

[alwaysonephotography]

You can get around the pre-flashes by running the AB light with the supplied 15' sync cord. Whenever you have a cord plugged into the sync socket on the AB it disables the slave sensor. This will ensure that the AB is firing in sync with your camera.

Another possibility is they sell slave sensors that supposedly have the capability to ignore pre-flash language. I've never tried one but I've read that they do work. Again this slave would plug right into the sync socket on the AB.

I don't own a 430 EX but to put a 580 EX in slave/manual mode. You flip the switch to slave and press the mode button for 2 seconds. This will ensure that the flash doesn't fire any pre-flashes, however, you'll lose ETTL of course and you'll still have to worry about the ST-E2 sending out signals that might trip off the AB.

[colormaniac]

You can get around the pre-flashes by running the AB light with the supplied 15' sync cord. Whenever you have a cord plugged into the sync socket on the AB it disables the slave sensor. This will ensure that the AB is firing in sync with your camera.


A possibly silly question: Does the sync cord need to be connected to the camera at all in order to make the AB thinks that it shouldn't rely on the slave sensor?




Another possibility is they sell slave sensors that supposedly have the capability to ignore pre-flash language.

By "they" you mean Alienbee?


Thanks!

[Titus213]

A possibly silly question: Does the sync cord need to be connected to the camera at all in order to make the AB thinks that it shouldn't rely on the slave sensor?





By "they" you mean Alienbee?


Thanks!

The sync cord will disable the optical sensor on the AB. But that leaves you with no trigger signal to the AB so you have to plug the sync cord in to the camera to let the AB know when to fire.

And no, I do not believe AB makes or sells an optical sensor of any kind.

And all of this is why I've always considered mixing ETTL flash units with studio strobes is just a PITA. I would suggest you get a sync cord to fire the AB and get a couple of optical triggers for your EX flash units. The EX flash units will be in manual mode. Problems all solved.

[colormaniac]

The sync cord will disable the optical sensor on the AB. But that leaves you with no trigger signal to the AB so you have to plug the sync cord in to the camera to let the AB know when to fire.


Oh, how come I would have asked such a stupid question.