Critique Corner still necessary???

[markubig]

Is the Critique Corner section still necessary, since most people who post in the sharing sections welcome feedback/criticism and people who view in the sharing sections usually give critiques and criticims in addition to praise?

Just curious.

[Michaelmjc]

Everyone just gives their opinions in the travel/landscapes, nature, etc.. forums. I really dont think it is still necessary.

[Pekka]

You are correct. It is most likely that Critique Corner will be disabled in near future. We'll also most likely have a Transportation forum soon. :)

[Michaelmjc]

A transportation forum? Not sure if I know what you mean by that, but sounds sweet.

[Rob612]

For what is my little experience on this forum, actually CC is probably useless, I agree.

[CyberDyneSystems]

A transportation forum? Not sure if I know what you mean by that, but sounds sweet.


Planes, Trains, and Automobiles... ;)

[markubig]

Planes, Trains, and Automobiles... ;)that was a funny moviehttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[cjm]

Sweet! A transportation board :) I can't wait for that one. Good idea.

[Michaelmjc]

Lets have planes and automobiles, no trains ;)

[poke]

I'd like to see Critique Corner stay...

Very well articulated Bloo Dog. After reading your post I definately agree with you. I would like to be able to expand my artistic vocab / eye, and your suggestion sounds like a good way to get some familiarisation in that area.

[jaypie77]

Throw transport down the well...

[CyberDyneSystems]

You know Bloo,. there was time not so long ago that the Critique board was a lot more like what you describe... But it was a very different forum back then.. with very few members and not a lot of traffic. As things grew things changed too. I think part of the reasoning behind dismantling crtique is that it is not being used to potential,..

However,. what I don't see is why such discussions can't take place. "Talk about photoagrphy" was created fro just such discussions,. as critique was for just such growth of our work.

But we can still speak artistically of peoples work in the Sharing Forums? No?

[O/confusion]

...I've seen several excellent photographers' work put up only to age off the board without comment or to die under the usual techno-weenie talk. I propose that there be a section in which respondents check their camera bags and their owner's manuals and Photoshop at the door and adopt a broad artistic vocabulary. It will take awhile for some people to learn the language, but I am willing to bet that if a small part of the forum is devoted to such discussion, people will learn the vocabulary and use it......

.....While it is true that a lot of folks come to POTN with questions about their gear largely because they're new to at least ONE aspect of photography, there are others whose interest goes beyond endless discussions about redeye reduction, which tripod head to use and whether L glass will make their hemmorhoids disappear and make them socially more acceptable. Create a techno-weeniefree zone and discussions will fluorish. As it is now, artistic considerations, generally, don't exist in any discussions for long......


Amen to that, brother Bloo. I'm as interested as anyone else in staying informed about the mechanics and the technological aspects of photography, but I also know that all the fancy gear in the world cannot compensate for a poorly developed visual aesthetic or the failure to comprehend why some images are so compelling and memorable and others, well...no so, to put it politely.

I know there are probably lots of folk who just don't think discussing the art and craft of image making matters to them, or who are primarily interested in getting advice on what to buy next or how much to charge for their output, and that's alright; there's no shortage of opportunity here to get all of that you might need. But, as Bloo says, it's hard to keep a thread running where someone's trying to get serious about the aesthetic or philosophical aspects of what we do because before you can blink it's gone off on an "L" glass or Photoshop tangent, never to be recovered.

There are, I expect, more than a few of us who are experienced visual artists in the wider sense first and photographers second, and there are probably lots more who are keen to develop their artistic sensibilities and would appreciate something more than pragmatic, but often not particularly edifying, advice about their choice of equipment in making their images. Some may choose to think that serious debate about artistic concerns is just jerking off, but there are others who feel the same way about seeing endless posts from people frenziedly buying costly gear whose only requirement of their images, it seems, is that they be "sharp".

How about a forum called something like "Educating the Creative Eye", where those who want to develop their art, or their skill in being able to discuss their work on something other than a technical level, can find like-minded folk to talk with--and those who don't want to be considered artsy-fartsy will know it's probably a good place to avoid!

respectfully,
Terry

[CyberDyneSystems]

I love your Ideals Bloo,. and I'd love to see this as well,.

All I'm saying is that what you ar asking for relies solely on the input of the members,. Critique has been in place for the entire duration of this forums existance. How people use it,. what images they post there and how people critique is not and can never be under the control of the forum.

Im not disagreeing with you BlooDog,. I just don't think it is realistic to think that creating a forum will generate the kind of content you are hoping for.

So let me ask you this,.. how?

If critique stays,. what changes?

[Big_B]

Bloo, I'm really with you on this one. While, I generally love the digital revolution, I hate the obsession with technological wizzadry that comes with it. It also seems to engender a move towards technical perfection at the expense of personal expression.

I used to be a very frequent visiter of the critique corner, but gradually drifted away into the share section. This was primarily because I found the critques too focused on the technical.

In terms of a re-vamped critique corner, or whatever - what have we got to loose? If we try to change people's approach, and it doesn't work, what then?

In truth, nothing. All we have lost is a little time and effort.

One the other hand, it might work very well. We might generate a small community of people interested in exploring a different angle to their photography. Hopefully, over time, that would gradually spread and help to raise the level of constructive cricism throughout the board. Surely that can only be a force for good?

[O/confusion]

All I'm saying is that what you ar asking for relies solely on the input of the members,. Critique has been in place for the entire duration of this forums existance. How people use it,. what images they post there and how people critique is not and can never be under the control of the forum.

I understand and appreciate your point, CDS. However,I do have to admit to suppressing a rueful chuckle when I see all the complaints from people bemoaning what they see as the pollution of, for example, the Sports forum due to the inclusion of shots they don't feel properly belong in that category, and that there is a move underway to remedy this by creating another new forum for those "misplaced" images.

I genuinely mean no disrespect to anyone by what I say here, but frankly the overwhelming majority of the images that are posted in the forums--at least during the few months I've been checking in here--belong under the general category of either Trophy Shots: "Here's my [car/bike/gun/wife/pet/kid/lens, etc.]....nice, eh?"; or Product Shots: "This is a car, this is another car, this is what it looks like going the other way...isn't it cool?"; or else Tool Time Shots: "Look what my camera/lens can do...isn't it sharp?"

Occasionally there are stunning images posted that go beyond mere documention of subject matter, and demonstration of technical skill and excellence of equipment: they achieve the really difficult bit, which is to express something about the moment that made it worth differentiating from the ones immediately before and after the shot was taken, or else make us feel some engagement with the image beyond "Nice car/bike/wife...etc."

How people can object so strongly to seeing a picture of someone's sports car parked in the street posted next to one of a nicely exposed Nascar vehicle taken broadside on, all sense of motion stopped by high shutter speed, against the backdrop of an otherwise empty track, is quite beyond me. They are both intrinsically what I would consider to be Product Shots; fundamentally, all that differentiates them is the relative degree of technical skill demonstrated by the photographers, of their willingness to go somewhere special to get the shots, and probably of the technology used to capture them. Images like these, while they obviously have appeal to those who like the class of objects to which the images refer are themselves inherently meaningless and are therefore beyond the scope of aesthetic debate.

What I'm trying to get at here is that if this is a photography forum, surely there should be a place for more emphasis on discussion of the images as images-- rather than as mere two-dimensional "stand-ins" for the subjects they depict. And if a new forum can be created based on a somewhat tenuous distinction between the kind of images I've just described, then why not one based on a very substantial difference in approach to the appreciation of what we produce?

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not at all saying people are somehow wrong to continue to enjoy posting their stuff to the forums, and seeing what others are doing, the way they always have done; I just want to stand with Bloo and say that I think people here might get more out of the whole experience if there was a little more meaningful dialogue going on--and it just isn't going to happen in most of the existing forums because, as Bloo and I have said, a good deal of the time the images themselves--their easthetic qualities and philosophical underpinnings--are not what is actually being discussed and/or criticised.

regards,
Terry

[Pekka]

Interest to artistic and nonmeasurable values in photography is something that must come out from the members of the forum. If someone shares a photo, people may of course critique its technical quality but no one forbids starting a discussion of its merits of composition, content, historic relevance, sosiological power, underlying hidden meanings etc.

IMHO Bloo and others are correct, these issues should get more attention. By members of the forum, not by means of moderation and categorizing posts.

That is why removing critique corner is in my opinion a path towards the mindset Bloo is talking about, not away from it. Most people who view e.g. "People" do not check out "Critique Corner" simply because they have not posted there. Removing "Critique Corner" will mean that all photo sharing forums are now officially open to all kind discussion and critique - and what that will be is up to you all .

Next time you see a comment "it is not sharp" or "it's a great shot (because it is so sharp)" feel free to jump in and question those comments and contribute alternate viewpoints and questions which might direct robotic sharpened thoughts to that artistic bokeh area of mind.

We have also "Talk About Photography" which is very suitable for discussion about styles, history, thought patterns, handling subjects, composition etc.

[O/confusion]

Pekka--you are, of course absolutely correct to say that the membership is responsible for the nature and quality of the content of the forum.

I'd like to think that at least a few of the members who have checked out this thread so far may be persuaded--if they're not already in the habit of doing so--to take the extra time required to make a considered and constructive response to posted images instead of the more common automatic "Great shot" or "Nice" or words to that effect. Sure, it's a friendly thing to do, but it's not particularly useful to those posting the image (unless empty praise is what they're really looking for) nor to beginners to digital photography who may be checking out the forum as part of their self-education strategy and puzzling over just why a certain image is considered "great" when it may actually look perfectly unremarkable to them.

regards,
Terry

[CyberDyneSystems]

One thing I have noticed as a good rule of thumb.. if members take the lead on a direction.. others will often follow. If moderators take the lead,. then the level of critism of the direction taken is increased exponentially as is the resistence to the idea.

Many of the great aspects of the forum have been completely member driven,. the contests,. the POTN Op-tech strap etc...

98% of the all the "sticky" info we have was created by membership,.. (the vast majotrity of the stuff that happens to have a Moderators name on it was merely a page of links to threads Members contributed.)

We do all we can to help with these member driven ideas, liek making things sticky etc.. But if the driving force is not the membership then the direction becomes artificial.

If POTN is a School,. then Pekka is the builder, the founder, the administration and the Principle.. The mods are merely Hall monitors,. (well maybe we are "The Dean of Discipline" too.. ;) )

But you,. the members are both the Teachers and the Students.
It makes perfect sense for you to expect the hall monitors to stop students from running in the halls... but you would not expect them to grade there homework,. or to tell the teachers how to grade it?

.... sorry,. I'm off on a tangeant again... :)

[jfrancho]

There was a recent rash of backlash posts to what started as constructive criticism, deteriorating into accusations of name calling. I'm not sure that POTN membership, with it's increased size, in general is mature enough to even comprehend what some of the more insightful members have to offer. Hopefully I'm wrong.