Copyright queries for 21st Birthday Events

[keegsmeister]

Hi guys, thanks for noticing my title post there :)

I have been shooting several 21st Events lately and my package I offer are as follows:
- high resolution images on DVD delivered to your door
- All images post processed via Photoshop
- A multimedia montage presentation of the event
- 50 Standard 6x4" prints (optional upgrades are possible)

My question is: if I was going to release the photos to my clients via a DVD, they might take it to the photostore and print the images themselves rather than purchasing it from the photographer (I assume thats where alot of Events/Wedding photographers make their money i.e. via hardcover photobooks, albums etc.)

I'm just wondering how event photographers deal with this? Many thanks in advance.

Keegan

[aram535]

Depends on your contract. If you're contracts calls for high resolution images on DVD you don't get print orders. If you do a low-quality images you won't get but a few orders for larger prints. Even if you do it at 72 dpi.

If you're giving them the DVD for "proofing" purposes, than put a huge watermark on the images, so that there would be no way of cropping them out. Check out my gallery (http://www.tranquilphotos.com/open-gallery/main.php) for an example of this.

Now some places do query customers on printing "obvious" professional photos, but most also give the customer a release form to sign, which releases them from any liability.

[keegsmeister]

Thanks for that, but say if the client wants the high resolution images on DVD so that they have a copy of the event on computer, what size should I be resizing my images to so the customer gets a high enough resolution on their PC but not high enough to render a large print?

[ryant35]

I have different prices if I am being paid up front for my time, or if I am going to sell prints. I wouldn't charge $15 for a 5x7 if I'm paid upfront.

[DDCSD]

If you give them lower res files, they'll just print them anyways and they'll look like crap. If you're going to give them a DVD of the photos, price it as if you're not expecting to sell anything else to them.

I would probably offer 10 print-ready images instead of everything if you plan on making print/product sales above and beyond the initial package. But don't plan on many print sales. Its usually kind of an either/or deal.

[keegsmeister]

Thanks guys.

@ Derek, the 10 print-ready images concept is really interesting, and i might take that on board actually. But does that mean that when it comes to distributing the DVD of high res images, should I exclude those 10 high res images from the DVD so that I have sole rights to developing them?

[dreamcatcher23]

I always find it surprising how good low resolution files can look when printed up... for example, a client of mine was given 600x400 pixel proofs, and when I went over to make final selections with her she proudly showed me a 16x20" canvas she'd had printed from the proofs, and although it didn't stand up to close scrutiny, it looked great from across the room.

You could write the images to a DVD and print your copyright message on the DVD using those label thingies if you think that'd help, but in reality you'll probably need to accept that once they've got the high res files you won't see any more money. Price your high res files accordingly!

[aram535]

Thanks for that, but say if the client wants the high resolution images on DVD so that they have a copy of the event on computer, what size should I be resizing my images to so the customer gets a high enough resolution on their PC but not high enough to render a large print?

You can drop the DPI to 72, but that won't stop them from printing them.

I usually do 800px high or wide @ 72dpi images for my low-res images. I never give out high resolution without a watermark.

[DDCSD]

Thanks guys.

@ Derek, the 10 print-ready images concept is really interesting, and i might take that on board actually. But does that mean that when it comes to distributing the DVD of high res images, should I exclude those 10 high res images from the DVD so that I have sole rights to developing them?

I was thinking more on the lines of giving them only 10 print-ready images on the DVD. Either they can choose or you choose for them. Then put the rest of the shots on the DVD as low-res and watermarked proofs. That way you can still up-sell them, but they are getting a good value at the same time.

For event stuff, I think its usually preferable to sell everything up-front. It can be pretty difficult to get people to pay for stuff above and beyond the initial package after the event and when they already have good, quality product in hand.

I would offer some packages with books and albums included. Just don't go overboard with the number of packages. People hate having too many option.

[tracknut]

You can drop the DPI to 72, but that won't stop them from printing them.

I usually do 800px high or wide @ 72dpi images for my low-res images. I never give out high resolution without a watermark.

The dpi setting on a jpeg file is completely meaningless. You can set that 800px file to 1dpi, 72dpi, 300dpi or 800dpi - and all will print identically - it's the same data in the file.

Dave

[aram535]

The dpi setting on a jpeg file is completely meaningless. You can set that 800px file to 1dpi, 72dpi, 300dpi or 800dpi - and all will print identically - it's the same data in the file.

Dave

I'm getting tired of this conversation with DPI ... PPI .. meaningless or not. Sorry don't mean to dump on you but it's just getting overused.

When they went to print it, it would give you a warning. Yes, its meaningless to a monitor and you and me, but it is looked at by the software saying that the image is not "size ready" or something like that.

[tracknut]

I'm getting tired of this conversation with DPI ... PPI .. meaningless or not. Sorry don't mean to dump on you but it's just getting overused.

When they went to print it, it would give you a warning. Yes, its meaningless to a monitor and you and me, but it is looked at by the software saying that the image is not "size ready" or something like that.

The issue is that the rest of us (me and whoever else is making you get tired of it) are saying that you're propagating misinformation by telling people to "set your dpi to 72" or whatever it might be for the topic. You're continuing the myth that folks need to set this attribute, at which point they'll start telling other folks to set it, and on and on.

By the way, I've never set the DPI fields in any of my jpeg files that I send to magazines or books, I leave them at the default 72dpi that comes out of my camera. Nobody's every complained or mentioned any issues with it.

Dave

[aram535]

Try upload your image set to 1 dpi to walmart or costco and you'll see what I mean. It isn't a myth that the computers read the information and act upon it.

[tracknut]

Try upload your image set to 1 dpi to walmart or costco and you'll see what I mean. It isn't a myth that the computers read the information and act upon it.

Ok I'll admit I've never sent images to them, so I'll give you that. It's the comments about setting dpi for web display that get me going, though.

Dave

[keegsmeister]

Alright I think I have a rough idea of how to approach this now. Thanks alot guys. Definitely been very helpful :)

[strmrdr]

be careful if you advertise high resolution images and deliver images printable only at 5x7 they might get a lawyer who will hire me and you will lose the lawsuit.
If doing anything less than full camera resolution images advertise them as such! (minor cropping allowed)

[strmrdr]

also if you watermark it better be specified, I haven't been called in yet on that one but I bet it will happen.

[books64]

Charge for the DVD of files the same that you would for prints. If you are giving them 30 pics of hi-res files, charge the same as you would for a similarly sized print. It would be up for you to determine whether to charge for an 8x10, 11x14, etc. IMO, I assume the customer is going to get prints made at around 8x10 to around 12x18 and price accordingly. JMHO.

[tracknut]

be careful if you advertise high resolution images and deliver images printable only at 5x7 they might get a lawyer who will hire me and you will lose the lawsuit.
If doing anything less than full camera resolution images advertise them as such! (minor cropping allowed)

Care to clarify this a bit? You were able to convince a judge that the definition of "high" is actually an objective thing, and it equals some number? What was the context of this?

Dave

[strmrdr]

Care to clarify this a bit? You were able to convince a judge that the definition of "high" is actually an objective thing, and it equals some number? What was the context of this?

Dave

context: advertised high resolution images on cd. one delivered 1024 on large side other 800

Hasn't went to trial but have done 2 depositions.
The other side caved both times on the advise of council after seeing the tape.

not to give to much away:
Argument 1: actual camera settings and what each size is called.
Argument 2: what is reasonable size for consumer printing and what resolution is required. (recommended resolution for printing from labs)

If it went to court it would come down to the other parties hired expert vs me and who the judge or jury believed more.

Legal wise it is a contract dispute and they make judges very unhappy if they arent resolved before trial so they are usually settled.

Bottom line advertise what you deliver and deliver what you advertise.

Btw this is not legal advise consult an attorney licensed in your area for legal advise.

[DDCSD]

And you are?

[Karl Johnston]

You can drop the DPI to 72, but that won't stop them from printing them.

I usually do 800px high or wide @ 72dpi images for my low-res images. I never give out high resolution without a watermark.
That's huge, you can run that double page through a newspaper in full color and not see a difference. On the web it makes even less a difference.

Rather than watermarking, be more conservative with your shooting. Don't spray and pray and then slip out a 500 image disk for 500$...that's waste of time, waste of work and worry. If you're doing a portrait shoot for a family and the package they select says they get a
(Example)
1 hour session
3 poses
Processed prints: (4)8.5x11", (2) 11x14" and (4) wallet sheets
1 disk of 30 unedited images

-400$

Doesn't sound too shabby, you get your time, materials and equipment covered and they get their prints...and their disk. Give them 4-8 mpxs of unedited images on the disk, and by unedited I don't mean underexposed or blown out, generally horribly taken pictures..they should be well done enough to sell or print at whatever size they wish..and generally you would have about 10 or so that are real shiners that would make sense in printing.

Your work and your time is paid for, so what if they print millions of prints? That's their prerogative but its not you paying for it. They paid for the service, why should they get a silly logo and your name across them afterwards?

[aram535]

800px is huge? Hmmm ok. I guess size doesn't matter -- unless you want to, you know, know what you're looking at, rather than a couple of splotches on a piece of paper at arms length.