Focusing dilemma

[eaglesnest]

I wonder why my birds images aren't sharp ? I attached 2 of the better shots I have.
*Yellow bird : 1/1000 sec,f 13, Tv,AI servo,Centre point, ISO 800,400 mm
* Black bird : 1/800 sec,f 7.1,Tv,AI servo,Centre point, ISO 640,400 mm
Should I use a monopod instead of handheld?
Is the subject too far?
Need some tips and advice.
Thank you

[Mike J.]

Don't be to critical......nice shots....I have had the same problem. In my efforts to get better shots I have learned a couple of things...The lens, ASA and f:stop can make a big difference, as well as how much you have to crop. I started using a Canon 400-5.6, started lowering the asa to no greater than 400 (200 better) got closer by using a blind most of the time and using a middle of the road f:stop....I will have to say it has been a combined effort...The lens has been my best move. I don't know which lens you use but I tried 2 others prior to the 400mm and no matter what I did, the results were lacking that extra little punch...I always use a relatively good tripod and can pass on one more little thing I found out...After focusing, I do not touch the tripod at all..might be me but as soon as I took my hands off the tripod, the photos immediately became sharper.......based on your photos, won't take much to improve.

[jmik26]

Are both pictures cropped?
Which lens do you have?
Which camera do you have?
Have you ever got sharp pictures from this lens / camera combo?
Are you stuck on TV mode?

[eaglesnest]

Are both pictures cropped?
Which lens do you have?
Which camera do you have?
Have you ever got sharp pictures from this lens / camera combo?
Are you stuck on TV mode?

None of the pictures are cropped
I have 100-400 mm lens
Camera Canon 40D
Yes I do have sharp images from this lens/camera combo
I prefer to use Tv mode to avoid blur images due camera shakes. Will try to use monopod on next shooting.

[Redrib]

I think you are being too hard on yourself...I would be happy with both of those hand held shots. I have the same gear as you and cannot get a sharp image if I don't use a tripod...but I am old and weak and can't hold the camera steady. The tripod has made a wonderful difference for me.

[eaglesnest]

I think you are being too hard on yourself...I would be happy with both of those hand held shots. I have the same gear as you and cannot get a sharp image if I don't use a tripod...but I am old and weak and can't hold the camera steady. The tripod has made a wonderful difference for me.

At first I thought it's impractical to use a tripod unless you're sitting and waiting for the bird/s to come near you. Basically I walked around and snaps whenever I see my subjects. In this case I will try using a monopod. Thanks for your feedback.

[jmik26]

None of the pictures are cropped
I have 100-400 mm lens
Camera Canon 40D
Yes I do have sharp images from this lens/camera combo
I prefer to use Tv mode to avoid blur images due camera shakes. Will try to use monopod on next shooting.

Just my opinion...
* The first image should look a little better, maybe it was the f/13 that made it a little soft? Second image is pretty far away which would add to the bird not being sharp.

* Its a great lens.

* Its a great camera

* That would indicate to me its not the setup.

* Everybody has there own ways. When I first started shooting I used TV mode also. Since then I have switched to AV mode which has worked out very well for me. I really like being able to control the DOF.

The picture of the Red Wing Blackbird would be an ideal distance for taking pictures of birds. If images continue to lack sharpness I would set up the camera and lens on a tripod and do a controlled test....Jeff

[marcoj70]

I wonder why my birds images aren't sharp ? I attached 2 of the better shots I have.
*Yellow bird : 1/1000 sec,f 13, Tv,AI servo,Centre point, ISO 800,400 mm
* Black bird : 1/800 sec,f 7.1,Tv,AI servo,Centre point, ISO 640,400 mm
Should I use a monopod instead of handheld?
Is the subject too far?
Need some tips and advice.
Thank you

At 1/1000 or 1/800 you shouldn't have shake problems, however I wouldn't go much slower than that without some sort of support.
At f13 you loose in sharpness, but not too much. You should be able to see it only at 100% crop, and then in optimal conditions. I usually keep between f5.6 and f11.

What could be a problem is AI Servo: if you're only shooting standing birds, use One Shot, if you're mainly shooting standing birds with some flying shots between them, use AI Focus: it sometimes behave unexpectedly and you have to get to know it's behaviour, but once you've done that, it's ok. Use AI Servo only if you're shooting only flying birds: on a standing object on AI Servo, the autofocus will keep hunting because your handhold is not perfectly still, or simply because within the center point cross lines it identifies different focusing planes, therefore you're never sure of the results.
I sometimes use a monopod, but then only when I am out for the whole day shooting, and I would get too tired otherwise ;)

I usually shoot in manual mode, or in AV is I have quickly changing conditions (i.e. scattered clouds) and keep an eye on the aperture time: I try to keep it shorter than 1/640, but I also got good shots at 1/250 (low yeld, though). When light fades, I first open the lens up to f5.6, and only then if needed step up the ISO: the loss of sharpness at f5.6 from f8 (the optimal for this lens) is way less than having the ISO doubled.

Another trick: if you're afraid of shaking the shot, try shooting in high speed drive, taking 2 or 3 shots at a time: usually the 2nd and 3rd shots are much more steadier than the 1st.

In summary, keep your ISO lower, open you lenses, use One Shot autofocus and take short bursts of pictures at a time.

Hope will help! :)

[eaglesnest]

At 1/1000 or 1/800 you shouldn't have shake problems, however I wouldn't go much slower than that without some sort of support.
At f13 you loose in sharpness, but not too much. You should be able to see it only at 100% crop, and then in optimal conditions. I usually keep between f5.6 and f11.

What could be a problem is AI Servo: if you're only shooting standing birds, use One Shot, if you're mainly shooting standing birds with some flying shots between them, use AI Focus: it sometimes behave unexpectedly and you have to get to know it's behaviour, but once you've done that, it's ok. Use AI Servo only if you're shooting only flying birds: on a standing object on AI Servo, the autofocus will keep hunting because your handhold is not perfectly still, or simply because within the center point cross lines it identifies different focusing planes, therefore you're never sure of the results.
I sometimes use a monopod, but then only when I am out for the whole day shooting, and I would get too tired otherwise ;)

I usually shoot in manual mode, or in AV is I have quickly changing conditions (i.e. scattered clouds) and keep an eye on the aperture time: I try to keep it shorter than 1/640, but I also got good shots at 1/250 (low yeld, though). When light fades, I first open the lens up to f5.6, and only then if needed step up the ISO: the loss of sharpness at f5.6 from f8 (the optimal for this lens) is way less than having the ISO doubled.

Another trick: if you're afraid of shaking the shot, try shooting in high speed drive, taking 2 or 3 shots at a time: usually the 2nd and 3rd shots are much more steadier than the 1st.

In summary, keep your ISO lower, open you lenses, use One Shot autofocus and take short bursts of pictures at a time.

Hope will help! :)

Thanks Marco, I will certainly try to use what you have suggested. It's true, most of my shots are pretty noisy due to high ISO (800-1000) and I also have the feeling that One shot AF seems to be sharper than AI focus.

[Jack Dawe]

I have the 100-400 and find it's very sharp at close range, but gets somewhat softer with distance. I think some of this is inherent in the lens, but I also thinking that it's partly an inevitable consequence of hand-holding it. What I mean is, with the best will in the world my hand is never going to be completely steady and at anything less than pretty lightning shutter speeds there is going to be some motion blur however minimal. At close ranges this minimal motion is (hopefully) not going to be enough to show up and the shot will appear razor sharp, but the further the distance the more magnified the effect of that motion will be, hence long-range shots are never likely to be sharp. Is my thinking correct, or am I being totally cock-eyed?

Also, a question if I may. If I am in AI Servo mode and shoot a continuous burst at a passing bird, will the camera continue to focus while shooting, or does the focus lock with at first shot? My experience so far suggests the latter, but I'm not sure.

[artyman]

Try using a tripod or monopod to support a long lense that is the best way to sharpen up distant shots.

[marcoj70]

I have the 100-400 and find it's very sharp at close range, but gets somewhat softer with distance. I think some of this is inherent in the lens, but I also thinking that it's partly an inevitable consequence of hand-holding it. What I mean is, with the best will in the world my hand is never going to be completely steady and at anything less than pretty lightning shutter speeds there is going to be some motion blur however minimal. At close ranges this minimal motion is (hopefully) not going to be enough to show up and the shot will appear razor sharp, but the further the distance the more magnified the effect of that motion will be, hence long-range shots are never likely to be sharp. Is my thinking correct, or am I being totally cock-eyed?

Also, a question if I may. If I am in AI Servo mode and shoot a continuous burst at a passing bird, will the camera continue to focus while shooting, or does the focus lock with at first shot? My experience so far suggests the latter, but I'm not sure.
1) Distance does not influence how steady you need to be: at the same focal length the angle remains the same at any distance, so also the eventual movement on the picture will be the same. On the other side it is true that at longer distances the lens has problems to focus; also keep in mind that the actual focus line (cross for center point) is actually 3 times longer than the rectangle you see, therefore at longer distances it could much more easily catch something nearer of farther away from what you intend to focus to.
2) In servo mode the camera will try to continue focusing until you shoot, however the camera can not focus while the mirror is up, and on continuous burst the mirror stays up quite a lot of the time (at least on the fast burst setting); therefore it will be difficult to keep the subject in focus. The best technique in this case is a series of short burst (2-3 frames per burst), with some half a second between the burst while keeping the trigger half pressed to reacquire focus.

[mikeivan]

Another trick: if you're afraid of shaking the shot, try shooting in high speed drive, taking 2 or 3 shots at a time: usually the 2nd and 3rd shots are much more steadier than the 1st.

:)

Marco, good suggestions, especially about One Shot. My experience with A1 Servo is pretty dismal (always handheld). I have never seen your trick about short bursts for sharper images before. I must try that, I rarely use burst mode.
Any idea why that would work?

[marcoj70]

Marco, good suggestions, especially about One Shot. My experience with A1 Servo is pretty dismal (always handheld). I have never seen your trick about short bursts for sharper images before. I must try that, I rarely use burst mode.
Any idea why that would work?
When you press the trigger button, all muscles in your hand contract (not only your index finger), creating most of the shake. Once the button is pressed, your hand is stationary again and your muscles actually relax a little.

[mikeivan]

When you press the trigger button, all muscles in your hand contract (not only your index finger), creating most of the shake. Once the button is pressed, your hand is stationary again and your muscles actually relax a little.

Ah Hah, bingo. Never too old to learn something. I will try this tomorrow. Thanks

[BradM]

At 1/1000 or 1/800 you shouldn't have shake problems, however I wouldn't go much slower than that without some sort of support.
At f13 you loose in sharpness, but not too much. You should be able to see it only at 100% crop, and then in optimal conditions. I usually keep between f5.6 and f11.

What could be a problem is AI Servo: if you're only shooting standing birds, use One Shot, if you're mainly shooting standing birds with some flying shots between them, use AI Focus: it sometimes behave unexpectedly and you have to get to know it's behaviour, but once you've done that, it's ok. Use AI Servo only if you're shooting only flying birds: on a standing object on AI Servo, the autofocus will keep hunting because your handhold is not perfectly still, or simply because within the center point cross lines it identifies different focusing planes, therefore you're never sure of the results.
I sometimes use a monopod, but then only when I am out for the whole day shooting, and I would get too tired otherwise ;)

I usually shoot in manual mode, or in AV is I have quickly changing conditions (i.e. scattered clouds) and keep an eye on the aperture time: I try to keep it shorter than 1/640, but I also got good shots at 1/250 (low yeld, though). When light fades, I first open the lens up to f5.6, and only then if needed step up the ISO: the loss of sharpness at f5.6 from f8 (the optimal for this lens) is way less than having the ISO doubled.

Another trick: if you're afraid of shaking the shot, try shooting in high speed drive, taking 2 or 3 shots at a time: usually the 2nd and 3rd shots are much more steadier than the 1st.

In summary, keep your ISO lower, open you lenses, use One Shot autofocus and take short bursts of pictures at a time.

Hope will help! :)

I have to disagree with a couple point of the above. I think they will only lead to more frustration in getting sharp images. And are contary to what most accomplished wildlife photog's will tell you what the correct techniques are when out in the field.

First AI Focus is all but useless, it is too unpredictable. The accepted method for shooting birds and wildlife is to use AI Servo. Whether moving or sitting still, the subject is in motion whether it is itself moving or its perch is moving for example in the breeze.

To use the one shot focus mode is not an accurate method to shoot subjects that you have no control over, at best you get one shot reasonably sharp but as soon as the subject turns, shifts or otherwise moves the focus is off.

The 100-400mm image quality improves significantly when shot stopped down to around f/8 over wide open at f/5.6. Shooting at a higher ISO does not decrease image quality if exposed properly and it certainly doesn't decrease image sharpness.

So if one is looking for the best image quality adjusting an aperture from the sweet spot instead of using an higher ISO is not the path to the best image.


This was shot with a 30D, a 100-400mm @ 135mm, f/7.1, 1/100th of a sec. and ISO 800. If I had opened up the the aperture to f/5 or even f/4.5 which is available in this focal range, I could have achieved a similar shutter speed without increasing the ISO to 800 but certainly would have lost detail (and depth of field) from the lens being outside the sharpest portion. And this detail could not have been recovered.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/redtailberryfeb2.jpg

Or another shot with the 40D, same lens @ 375mm, f/8, 1/200th and ISO 800

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/evegros65.jpg

Again staying in the sharpest part of the lens at least gives a chance to get the best possible image quality.

But I would invite you to look through my images at the zenfolio link below and see what the use the standard practice of using AI servo for all images can do.

One shot is great for that wedding portrait but has little use in the variable world of wildlife photography. And if you want the sharpest possible images use the cameras abilities to get to there without handicapping yourself by using the least sharpest aperture of your lens.

[Roy C]

I also use AI Servo all the time for birds whether they are moving or not. If you move the AF from the shutter button to the AF-on or * button you have the best of all worlds in AI servo mode:

1) Hit the AF-ON button and release and you have a one shot type AF

2) Hold the AF-ON button depressed and you have AI servo

3) By not touching the AF-ON button you have manual focusing (assuming your lens has full time manual focussing)

All this without having to re-set or turn any wheels or controls whatsoever and when you depress the shutter button it will not have any influence on the focussing.

[Bob_A]

I have to disagree with a couple point of the above. I think they will only lead to more frustration in getting sharp images. And are contary to what most accomplished wildlife photog's will tell you what the correct techniques are when out in the field.

First AI Focus is all but useless, it is too unpredictable. The accepted method for shooting birds and wildlife is to use AI Servo. Whether moving or sitting still, the subject is in motion whether it is itself moving or its perch is moving for example in the breeze.

To use the one shot focus mode is not an accurate method to shoot subjects that you have no control over, at best you get one shot reasonably sharp but as soon as the subject turns, shifts or otherwise moves the focus is off.

The 100-400mm image quality improves significantly when shot stopped down to around f/8 over wide open at f/5.6. Shooting at a higher ISO does not decrease image quality if exposed properly and it certainly doesn't decrease image sharpness.

So if one is looking for the best image quality adjusting an aperture from the sweet spot instead of using an higher ISO is not the path to the best image.


This was shot with a 30D, a 100-400mm @ 135mm, f/7.1, 1/100th of a sec. and ISO 800. If I had opened up the the aperture to f/5 or even f/4.5 which is available in this focal range, I could have achieved a similar shutter speed without increasing the ISO to 800 but certainly would have lost detail (and depth of field) from the lens being outside the sharpest portion. And this detail could not have been recovered.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/redtailberryfeb2.jpg

Or another shot with the 40D, same lens @ 375mm, f/8, 1/200th and ISO 800

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Bradklr/evegros65.jpg

Again staying in the sharpest part of the lens at least gives a chance to get the best possible image quality.

But I would invite you to look through my images at the zenfolio link below and see what the use the standard practice of using AI servo for all images can do.

One shot is great for that wedding portrait but has little use in the variable world of wildlife photography. And if you want the sharpest possible images use the cameras abilities to get to there without handicapping yourself by using the least sharpest aperture of your lens.

Beautiful shots Brad!

Can you also share your sharpening technique in post?

[BradM]

I also use AI Servo all the time for birds whether they are moving or not. If you move the AF from the shutter button to the AF-on or * button you have the best of all worlds in AI servo mode:

1) Hit the AF-ON button and release and you have a one shot type AF

2) Hold the AF-ON button depressed and you have AI servo

3) By not touching the AF-ON button you have manual focusing (assuming your lens has full time manual focussing)

All this without having to re-set or turn any wheels or controls whatsoever and when you depress the shutter button it will not have any influence on the focussing.

And to expand a little bit of Roy's very good suggestions, is if you use the AF button or * to focus with you can seperate focusing from metering which can dramatically improve images that go through areas of varying light like birds in flight.

Beautiful shots Brad!

Can you also share your sharpening technique in post?

Thanks Bob, my post involves several levels of sharpening in small increments doing so in individual light and dark channels. All of my images actaully get hit with sharpening at least 2 times before the final sharpening for the desired output, web or print.

The easy way to do this is by using the Photokit Sharpening plug-in for PS. A great piece of software as far as I am concerned, you really don't need it because other than some algroithms for image output size, print, web etc. it is really is just a series of actions that one can do in any version of PS that has the use of layers. But the speed and ease of use really is worth the bit of cash it costs IMO.


I also use Neat Image for not only noise reduction but to also soften the backgrounds a bit more like in the Grosbeak image. I also use Neat to apply a level of sharpening to retain detail when cleaning up any noise issues. I also have Noise Ninja but I have found that Neat has much more control and less loss of fine detail, not to mention the ability to clean up the bokeh much easier and quicker.

[Bob_A]

Thanks Brad, I'll have to trial Photokit.