580EXII vs 430EXII Power Comparison

[5teve]

I know that the 580exII is more powerful than the 430exII, but wondered how much the difference in power was. Since I just received my 430exII, I decided to do a quick unscientific test to see if I could see the power difference. I set my camera on manual mode, F4.0, 1/60, and then took a picture outside with the flash facing forward at full power. Here are the results of that test.

Here is the shot taken with the 430exII.

http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/yard_430exii.jpg

And here is the same shot taken using the 580exII.

http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/yard_580exii.jpg

You can see that the 580exii definitely has more reach and lights up objects further away as well as blowing out the concrete up close (more so than the 430exii did). The 430exII does seem to have plenty of power though, and is actually closer in power to the 580exII than I thought it would be. I am impressed.

[mellofelow]

Holy cow... nice sample shots! The 580 reached the back fence... and much wider spread as well.

Well, for this reason, the 580 is king if you tend to use modifier... eg, bounce, filter... etc.

Thanks for the test.

[tim]

One stop.

[Wilt]

One stop, as Tim says, or 1.4x the max distance

In short, double the amount of light

[c2thew]

nice comparison

[5x5 photography]

I am beginning to think of a flash for my 40D, thanks for the comparison.

[podoco]

This is a great comparison - my brain handles this much better than numbers in a manual!

Roughly how far is the camera to the seats?

[5teve]

This is a great comparison - my brain handles this much better than numbers in a manual!

Roughly how far is the camera to the seats?

I just measured and the chairs were about 25' away.

[Jhap33]

very nice

[msowsun]

Your EXIF info says your shots were at 24mm. The flash heads were probably also at 24mm and that would explain why there is not too much visible difference. At 24 mm the 430EX II has a GN of 25 meters while the 580EX II has a GN of 28.

Try you experiment again at 50mm or 105mm, and I think you will see much more of a difference.

http://photonotes.org/cgi-bin/flash-lookup.pl?flash1=canon430exii&flash2=canon580exii&flash3=*

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/430EXIIvs580EXIIGN.jpg

[vadim_c]

I know you did , but just to make sure: none of the flahses were in the TTL mode. Right ?

[LRL]

Thank you very much for this comparison... I was just trying to decide between a 580exII and the 430eXII. I am definitely going to go for the 580exII now!

[annefil]

Some folks mentioned the Sigma EF 530 DG was equal to the Canon 580EX II but I have been looking at the 430EX II for price comparison. I now have a Sunpak PZ40X II and no power at all. I have a Canon 450D. Suggestions please

[Wilt]

Some folks mentioned the Sigma EF 530 DG was equal to the Canon 580EX II but I have been looking at the 430EX II for price comparison. I now have a Sunpak PZ40X II and no power at all. I have a Canon 450D. Suggestions please

the model number of various flashes is based upon the Meter guide number...
Canon 580 has GN58
Metz 58 has GN58
Metz 54 has GN54
Sigma 530 has GN53
Canon 430 has GN43
Canon 220 has GN22


but you also have to know that most of the above units have zoom heads and the published GN (and name) are based upon the zoom head at its longest FL coverage, and in reality they are weaker than it appears.

For example, Metz 45 has GN45 at coverage for a fixed coverage for 35mm (on 135 format) lens. Put the Canon 580EX at a narrower 'normal lens' setting and its GN is 42, less light and less coverage angle.

[DanPonjican]

Great post! Very insightful.

[mmahoney]

Useful to actually see a visual .. we often speak in stops and guide numbers which can get lost. A picture is worth a thousand words.

[apersson850]

For example, Metz 45 has GN45 at coverage for a fixed coverage for 35mm (on 135 format) lens. Put the Canon 580EX at a narrower 'normal lens' setting and its GN is 42, less light and less coverage angle.When set to the same coverage, the 580 EX II has a guide number of 36. There you can compare it on equal terms with the Metz 45.

[Wilt]

When set to the same coverage, the 580 EX II has a guide number of 36. There you can compare it on equal terms with the Metz 45.

Thanks, I don't own a 580EX and Canon provides precious little documentation about a number of things pertaining to output. I guess their assumption is "just look at the display on the flash, and do the arithmetic"

[rudy_216]

I don't get the people who are so impressed with the extra power output of the 580EX. Really it is just a small increase. I can't figure out how they feel the 580EX has a stop more power. Maybe closer to a 1/2 of a stop (but under though). The only time you get more output is when you zoom out more than the 430EX is capable of.

[Wilt]

I don't get the people who are so impressed with the extra power output of the 580EX. Really it is just a small increase. I can't figure out how they feel the 580EX has a stop more power. Maybe closer to a 1/2 of a stop (but under though). The only time you get more output is when you zoom out more than the 430EX is capable of.

Well, lets take the GN from the name...58 meters, so 5.3 meters is f/11.
Now that the 430EX has a GN of 43, 5.3 meters distance with that flash is f/8 + 0.1EV, a bit under one f/stop difference. Consider that one f/stop difference is double the power, so expressed in those terms the difference is hardly insignificant. If I was comparing studio flash with watt second ratings the conceptual comparison might be 300 watt seconds vs. 500 watt seconds...would that be more impressive of a difference? Paul Buff markets the AB400 and the AB800...a similar kind of difference.

[5teve]

I just did another test with each flash manually zoomed to 70mm, full 1/1 power in manual mode, lens focal length at 24mm, 1/80 sec, f/5.6.

Here is the result from the 580exII
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/580ex2_70.jpg

And here is the result from the 430exII
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/430ex2_70.jpg

It is strange, but the 430exII does not seem to focus the flash spread as much as the 580exII does. I double checked and both flashes were in fact set to the same 70mm zoom.

[tim]

5teve, your pics won't display where I am, probably because of the weird dns thingy you're using. How about describing your results? What power does the 580EX need to be on to get about the same brightness as the 430?

[msowsun]

I am surprised that there is not more of a difference at 70mm. (GN37 vs GN50) And yes the beam is narrower on the 580EX II at 70mm.

It would be interesting to see more variations if you have time. Maybe .... (105mm) or (1/2 power) or (higher ISO) or various combinations

For "tim"

580EX II at 70mm
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/580ex2_70.jpg

430EX II at 70mm
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Newer/430ex2_70.jpg

[rudy_216]

Well, lets take the GN from the name...58 meters, so 5.3 meters is f/11.
Now that the 430EX has a GN of 43, 5.3 meters distance with that flash is f/8 + 0.1EV, a bit under one f/stop difference. Consider that one f/stop difference is double the power, so expressed in those terms the difference is hardly insignificant. If I was comparing studio flash with watt second ratings the conceptual comparison might be 300 watt seconds vs. 500 watt seconds...would that be more impressive of a difference? Paul Buff markets the AB400 and the AB800...a similar kind of difference.

Well if you are shooting at the maximum focal length for each flash then you would see a significant improvement from the 580 over the 430. But if you compare them at the SAME focal length the difference is not that much.

The difference between the AB400 and the AB800 is 2 times. The GN difference at the same FL between the 430EX and the 580EX is 1.2 times. Hardly one stop difference.

[Wilt]

Well if you are shooting at the maximum focal length for each flash then you would see a significant improvement from the 580 over the 430. But if you compare them at the SAME focal length the difference is not that much.

The difference between the AB400 and the AB800 is 2 times. The GN difference at the same FL between the 430EX and the 580EX is 1.2 times. Hardly one stop difference.


Most people could not begin to guess what guide numbers are for these flashes, as Canon fails to publish any information (I know, I consult the 580EX manual to explain its use to others who are less knowledgeable.

1.4x the GN is one f/stop, 2x the GN is two f/stops difference! Prove it to yourself...if one unit had guide number 120, at 15' it would have f/8 (120 / 15 = 8 ); a unit which is one f/stop less powerful would have f/5.6... and 5.6 * 15 = 84. 120 / 84 = 1.4

You are mistaken about the relative power of the AB...the 400 and the 800 are the electrical capacity of the units, not the light output. Doubling the electrical capacity is indeed 2x the power, but 2x the power equates only to a difference of ONE f/stop in light output. Alien Bee power stats on the web site show only ONE f/stop difference in measured light output, corroborating what I just stated.

[mellofelow]

1.4x is one f/stop, 2x is two f/stops difference in guide number!
Huh? 2x the speed = 1 full f/stop.... no?

Using constant ISO for example, f2.8 to f4.0 = 1 f/stop
Therefore, you can shoot 1/200 sec @ f2.8 versus 1/100 sec @ f4.0 achieve same lighting/exposure. 1/200 vs 1/100 = 2x

Ergo, F2.8 lens is 2x as fast as F4.0.... and almost 2x the price, if not more.

Am I wrong here? Or the GN works differently?

[k_strecker]

Here's my power test for a 430EXII from an hour ago. Not a pure power test, since I had it on ETTL, more like a capability test. And it passed with flllllying colors. put this up on a tall pole and I can light up quite a crowd at the street fair. Or the entire stage with a very large band on it.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/3Z1F1782.jpg

that's set at 24mm spread, a little bit more than 1 street width, as this is off-camera and angled diagonally. Probably 75 feet between flash and nearest corner of that house.

f/1.4 at ISO800.

here's another. This has great possability for run and gun urban portraits at night.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/3Z1F1772.jpg

[Wilt]

Huh? 2x the speed = 1 full f/stop.... no?

Using constant ISO for example, f2.8 to f4.0 = 1 f/stop
Therefore, you can shoot 1/200 sec @ f2.8 versus 1/100 sec @ f4.0 achieve same lighting/exposure. 1/200 vs 1/100 = 2x

Ergo, F2.8 lens is 2x as fast as F4.0.... and almost 2x the price, if not more.

Am I wrong here? Or the GN works differently?


No I had a momentary brain f*rt. I corrected my post a minute ago!

[LeeSC]

This is a nice comparison. But, we only straight flash as a last resort. Do a real world comparison. Put a stofen, demb bounce or modifier of your choice on both flashes and look at the differences when bounce flashing or straight fill flashing with a modifier.

I currently own one of each. Since the price of the 580 has come down quite a bit, it makes the decision between the two even tougher.

[5teve]

Ok, I did another test using an Omni-bounce diffuser on each flash. Each flash was set to 24mm zoom, full power in manual mode. Focal length 24mm, 1/80 sec.

Here is the result from the 580exII with omni-bounce
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/580exII_omni.jpg

And here is the result of the 430exII with omni-bounce
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/430exII_omni.jpg

The results look pretty much the same to me and it is difficult to see the power difference using the diffuser.

I also did another test without the diffuser, but this time set the flash zoom to 105mm.

Here is the 580exII, full power, 105mm flash zoom
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/580exII_105.jpg


And here is the 430exII, full power, 105mm flash zoom
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/430exII_105.jpg

With the flash zoomed you can see the advantage of the 580exII as it tends to focus the beam better.

[rudy_216]

1.4x the GN is one f/stop, 2x the GN is two f/stops difference! Prove it to yourself...if one unit had guide number 120, at 15' it would have f/8 (120 / 15 = 8 ); a unit which is one f/stop less powerful would have f/5.6... and 5.6 * 15 = 84. 120 / 84 = 1.4

Yes I know that 1.4x of the GN is one stop difference, which is a doubling of output power/light from the flash. Or don't you think that a one stop increase is a doubling of output? It seems you think that a doubling of the guide number is twice the output. This is where you are wrong.

You are mistaken about the relative power of the AB...the 400 and the 800 are the electrical capacity of the units, not the light output. Doubling the electrical capacity is indeed 2x the power, but 2x the power equates only to a difference of ONE f/stop in light output. Alien Bee power stats on the web site show only ONE f/stop difference in measured light output, corroborating what I just stated.

And how am I mistaken? Double the electrical output (wattseconds) does produce a doubling of the light output from the flash. For some reason you have it in your head that a one stop increase is not a doubling of the light output. It is.

[Wilt]

Yes I know that 1.4x of the GN is one stop difference, which is a doubling of output power/light from the flash. Or don't you think that a one stop increase is a doubling of output? It seems you think that a doubling of the guide number is twice the output. This is where you are wrong.



And how am I mistaken? Double the electrical output (wattseconds) does produce a doubling of the light output from the flash. For some reason you have it in your head that a one stop increase is not a doubling of the light output. It is.

Rudy, I do not believe that I have ever claimed that doubling Guide Number is twice the output, unless in 'mis-speak'...I have know for a long time (four decades, in fact) that doubling the guide number is 4EV difference in output. (I learned when Guide Numbers forced an understanding, because flash automation did not yet exist to serve as an impediment to the understanding.)

Doubling the Watt Second rating is doubling the output. Doubling the power is one f/stop change. I don't think we're in dispute on those points. Not sure how we seemed to get on a spurious dispute of fact.

The difference between the AB400 and the AB800 is 2 times. The GN difference at the same FL between the 430EX and the 580EX is 1.2 times. Hardly one stop difference.

I had earlier attempted only to point out only that '1.2 times' was the guide number difference and that 1.2x was almost one f/stop or a doubling of power -- just like AB400 vs. AB800 watt second ratings was a doubling of power

[rudy_216]

I had earlier attempted only to point out only that '1.2 times' was the guide number difference and that 1.2x was almost one f/stop or a doubling of power -- just like AB400 vs. AB800 watt second ratings was a doubling of power

But 1.2x the guide number is not close to a doubling of the of the power. 1.4x would be. 1.2 would be less than a 50% increase in power. While your comparison of the AB400 and AB80 actually is a doubling (an increase of one stop).

As I have said in my first statement, there really is not that much difference in power output between the 430EX and the 580EX.

There are practical reasons for this. To get twice the power output you need a capacitor that is twice the size. And because they use the same power source (4 AA batteries) the charge time would be a lot longer (and nobody likes a long charge time).

While the 580EX is an impressive flash that also has a high output the 430EX is no slouch.

[Wilt]

But 1.2x the guide number is not close to a doubling of the of the power. 1.4x would be. 1.2 would be less than a 50% increase in power. While your comparison of the AB400 and AB80 actually is a doubling (an increase of one stop).
.


OK, I concede that it is 1.45x power to get 1.2x the Guide Number

[punkerz123]

Great thread... I feel more confident buying the 430ex ii now.

[str8six]

Great thread... I feel more confident buying the 430ex ii now.
Agreed, interesting thread. I feel more confident buying a 2nd 580II now :)

Question; now that so many cameras have high ISO capabilities, being able to double your ISO, does that deminish the need for the power difference of the 580 over 430?

[mellofelow]

Question; now that so many cameras have high ISO capabilities, being able to double your ISO, does that deminish the need for the power difference of the 580 over 430?

Good question. Guess it depends. I think the 580 gives you the extra oomph when bounced, which I prefer indoors. Secondly, that power, combined with upping the ISO, is good for speedlite soft box, snoot or other modifier tool. Lastly, when in full daylight, gotta go with 580 when high speed sync.

[Tharaka]

Agreed, interesting thread. I feel more confident buying a 2nd 580II now :)

Question; now that so many cameras have high ISO capabilities, being able to double your ISO, does that deminish the need for the power difference of the 580 over 430?
No, because you need high power when outdoors in full sunlight, especially if you're trying to overpower the sun.

[apersson850]

Yes, but in the dark, it's at least somewhat true.

[Tharaka]

I guess... depends how much ambient you want

[str8six]

Thanks for the answers. I need to learn more about high speed sync. Any suggestions on that?

thanks again guys.

[mellofelow]

I like Mark Wallace's instruction on High speed sync.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXVdNwsNJiI

[JeffreyO]

I don't get the people who are so impressed with the extra power output of the 580EX. Really it is just a small increase. I can't figure out how they feel the 580EX has a stop more power. Maybe closer to a 1/2 of a stop (but under though). The only time you get more output is when you zoom out more than the 430EX is capable of.

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. I'm not willing to spend that much more just for a little more light.

[JeffreyO]

Off topic: the omni bounce won't give you softer light. It's the SIZE of the light source that makes it softer light, not how dispersed it is. The sun is more dispersed than any light and we know it's no soft. The farther away you are, the bigger the light source you need on a relative basis. An omni bounce won't do anything but help you to bounce light off more area of walls and ceiling or enable you to use something wider than 24mm.

[apersson850]

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. I'm not willing to spend that much more just for a little more light.The difference is 1.82, so although it's not one full aperture stop (which would be 2.0), it's not too far from that. Considering how much more money you have to spend to acquire an EF 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS USM II, compared to the otherwise equivalent EF 70-200 mm f/4L IS USM, and people do spend that money, this seems not to be a neglectible difference to many photographers.

[JeffreyO]

The difference is 1.82, so although it's not one full aperture stop (which would be 2.0), it's not too far from that. Considering how much more money you have to spend to acquire an EF 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS USM II, compared to the otherwise equivalent EF 70-200 mm f/4L IS USM, and people do spend that money, this seems not to be a neglectible difference to many photographers.

That's a good point. However I think with lenses there are more advantages--better low light focus and view in dark situatiins, better sharpness at f/4, sometimes better glass and construction (not sure in this case though), looks cooler (kidding on that). But I suppose each has to figure out if it's something that's right on the edge for many things they shoot. For a wedding photographer it may make a difference at a certain shooting distance and it's an obvious choice for them.

For me, it just wouldn't be worth it. So these helpful tests can help people decide either way I guess.

[SnapsbyPoteat]

wonder how this compares to the regular 580ex.

[str8six]

I like Mark Wallace's instruction on High speed sync.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXVdNwsNJiI

EXCELLENT explanation! Book marked. Thank you very much.

[jimenos1]

I have the 580EX II and it is GREAT! Glad I got it! Does everything...

[theCOkid]

I'm currently in the market for a flash for my 7D. I've been feeling like I should just buck up and get the 580. I'm one of those people that hates to buy something twice because I skimped the first go around. However, this comparison makes me really think that the 430 can probably do what I want it to. It's really helpful to see the results instead of just the numbers - I think they're closer in performance than I had it in my head.

Thanks for the time you guys took to explain all of this and for taking the photos!

[msowsun]

You already spent a pile of money on the 7D. Don't go cheap now.

4 things that I like about the 580EX II, and use all the time are:

1) Easy to use control wheel for changing settings (430EX II has silly buttons)
2) high voltage input port
3) built in white card.
4) extra power for bouncing flash (even the 580EX II sometimes maxes out)

Check out this comparison. http://photo-tips-online.com/review/canon-430ex-ii-vs-canon-580ex-ii/

Here are the additional features you get with the 580EX II over the 430EX II:

More Flash Power (GN58 vs GN43)
Threaded PC socket
External AutoFlash Exposure Sensor (in addition to ETTL and manual modes)
Weather Sealing
Control Wheel
Pull-out catchlight panel (white card)
Flash head tilts downwards
Flash head swivels full 180° both left and right
stroboscopic (MULTI) flash
Master/Slave Capability
Flash exposure bracketing (FEB)
High voltage input port
Rapid-fire mode
"Save Energy" override control
AF focus assist cover 45points. (430EX II only covers 9)
6 extra custom functions

[theCOkid]

You already spent a pile of money on the 7D. Don't go cheap now.

A valid point, but I've used that excuse too many times already! ;)

But seriously, thank you for your post. I really appreciate hearing from actual users when trying to buy something new that I'm unfamiliar with. Not sure why - because in most senses, I'm a real gear nerd - but I can't seem to wrap my head around all of the features and stats on the flashes. It's like a foreign language since I've never actually used one. I think I just need to take the plunge.

[digitalz]

Just to clarify things for me. With a 430ex II and 580ex II both firing off camera, the 580ex II will need to be set at 1/2 power to expose a subject equally to the 430ex II? Maybe I'm getting this wrong.

[msowsun]

Pretty close but, you actually need a little more than 1/2 power on the 580EX II to equal full power on the 430EX II.
Your distance from the flash to the subject will be more critical than the power setting.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Photo3/_1-29.jpg

[digitalz]

Thanks... I see it's almost 1/2 power plus maybe 1/3 of a stop. I have an 580ex II on order so I wanted to get comfy with the numbers before. Thanks for the side by side charts msowsun!

[harcosparky]

Good to see this as I am about to buy a second flash unit to be a companion to my ancient, but reliable 550EX.

I hear the 580EX II has a faster refresh time, but is it anymore powerful then the 550EX.

I guess by the model number it should be slightly, the 580 being GN58 would that make the 550 a GN55.

I guess I'll go look it up! :lol:

[edyakamenk]

Ok, I did another test using an Omni-bounce diffuser on each flash. Each flash was set to 24mm zoom, full power in manual mode. Focal length 24mm, 1/80 sec.

Here is the result from the 580exII with omni-bounce
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/580exII_omni.jpg

And here is the result of the 430exII with omni-bounce
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/430exII_omni.jpg

The results look pretty much the same to me and it is difficult to see the power difference using the diffuser.

I also did another test without the diffuser, but this time set the flash zoom to 105mm.

Here is the 580exII, full power, 105mm flash zoom
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/580exII_105.jpg


And here is the 430exII, full power, 105mm flash zoom
http://stuff457.gotdns.com/sjchen/webpics/430exII_105.jpg

With the flash zoomed you can see the advantage of the 580exII as it tends to focus the beam better.

To my eyes it seems 430EXII has more power lighting the fence on the back/side and wider beam. Anyone seeing the same thing? Is this normal for both being set to 105mm? Would be great if I have 580EXII to confirm this.:lol:

[Vixen89]

The 430EXII looks like it does more than enough to me..

[pcj]

Interesting thread - I have both units.

For me, the 580exII tends to go in my Cheetah QBox 24 - then the 430exII it either a back light or other light. I love the 580exII for more than just it's power - the control interface is much nicer, as it the weather proofing, and the built in bounce card :)

[jaycky]

thats it i am buying 2 580exII's 2 flextts and a mini tt1