Can someone explain "sunny 16"?

[napolar]

In the past two weeks or so I have seen numerous references to the "Sunny 16" rule. Being a newbie, I have never heard of this before and I was wondering if someone out there could explain it. Thanks in advance.

[malcolmx]

film emulsion was and is desighned to give optimum performance on a sunny day at noon )gmt) with an apature of f16

[PJ Saine]

In the past two weeks or so I have seen numerous references to the "Sunny 16" rule. Being a newbie, I have never heard of this before and I was wondering if someone out there could explain it. Thanks in advance.

Way back in time, in a universe not too far away where they had film cameras without built in meters, deciding exactly what the appropriate exposure was a more difficult proposition than with our instant feedback digital SLRs. I can remember simple pictographs and exposure situation lists published on the thin folded paper sheets that came with every roll of film.

The one rule of thumb you could always go by was 'The Sunny 16 Rule'. In short: "On a sunny day, set your camera to 1/ASA at F16."

Since then - ASA has become ISO, but the rule still stands. Of course, as a rule of thumb, it doesn't mean that this is always the best exposure to use, but you should be in that ballpark for good tonality in the midrange of sunlit subjects.

It isn't my personal favorite rule of thumb however. I like the photojournalist's exposure rule:

"F8 and be there."

Pat
www.pjsaine.com

[Parson]

Actually it's just a simple formula to help you approximate your shutter and aperture setting when you're without a meter. The general rule means that on a sunny day, your shutter should be set at 1/x with x being equal to the ISO rating of your film when your aperture is at f16 (1/100 for 100 ISO film; 1/400 for 400 ISO film; etc.). Starting at that basic formula you can generally adjust your shutter/aperture settings to get a fairly accurate setting for your current conditions.

It works, sometimes, but always remember to bracket just to be sure.

Rules like this is why so much time, money and energy has gone into the development of accurate meters!

[Vegas Poboy]

It's a pretty good rule to remember, there will be times when you have no meter & you need to act quickly outdoors, when you can figure this & adjust one or two stops from the histogram it helps. I felt that I would never use it until recently I wanted to carry light and just took the camera and lens out. The rule helped quickly for soem good photos.

[chtgrubbs]

I also like to use it as a reality check for the in-camera meter. If I am shooting outdoors in normal sunlight and the camera's suggested exposure is more than a half-stop different from the Sunny 16 I will use my incident meter to double-check it or scrutinize my histogram. Oooh, "Scrutinize my Histogram". Isn't that illegal in some states?

[Steve Parr]

film emulsion was and is desighned to give optimum performance on a sunny day at noon )gmt) with an apature of f16

"Film"?

What the Hell is "film"?

:lol:

Steve

[napolar]

Thank you to all, I knew that I would get some great answers / information from the members of this forum. Once again I was not let down.

[robertwgross]

film emulsion was and is desighned to give optimum performance on a sunny day at noon )gmt) with an apature of f16

This is a little incomplete.

The rule is f/16 aperture at a shutter of the reciprocal of the ISO.

I wish they still taught this stuff in photography classes.

---Bob Gross---

[DocFrankenstein]

I wish they still taught this stuff in photography classes.
They don't? :confused:

[robertwgross]

They don't? :confused:

Judging from this thread, it isn't obvious that it is still taught.

Back when I took a photography class, cameras were so simple that stuff like the Sunny 16 rule was the sort of material that they had to teach.

But then there was the class on how to load flash powder onto our flash units.

Does anybody remember when we used blue flash bulbs? Remember that they taught us to lick the contact tip before placing it into the flash gun? They just don't teach that good stuff these days. <for good reason>

---Bob Gross---

[gasrocks]

If you plan on using the "sunny f/16" rule (and you should,) send me an email. There are 3 corralleries (sp?) to the rule that I do teach my advanced students - makes it even more useful/powerful!

[pwaldo]

If you plan on using the "sunny f/16" rule (and you should,) send me an email. There are 3 corralleries (sp?) to the rule that I do teach my advanced students - makes it even more useful/powerful!

Okay, GASROCKS, I'll bite...

What are the 3 corrolaries?

++ Peter

[Jon]

They used to be printed on every Kodak film data sheet. Sun on sand or snow (f/22), bright sun (f/16), "cloudy bright" (f/11), open shade (f/8 IIRC), overcast (f/5.6). And the "high speed" (Ektachrome ASA 125 Tungsten and HS Ektachrome 160 ASA) films also had hints for night scenes.

Blue flash bulbs, and clear bulbs with a blue flash protector hood. I still have some AG-3s for the Honeywell Tilt-A-Mite (if I could find a battery for it!).

[Vegas Poboy]

Judging from this thread, it isn't obvious that it is still taught.

Back when I took a photography class, cameras were so simple that stuff like the Sunny 16 rule was the sort of material that they had to teach.

But then there was the class on how to load flash powder onto our flash units.

Does anybody remember when we used blue flash bulbs? Remember that they taught us to lick the contact tip before placing it into the flash gun? They just don't teach that good stuff these days. <for good reason>

---Bob Gross---

Sunny 16 is still taught in class in fact all of the basics of photography at the college I'm attending anyways. In fact no one is allowed to shoot digital until after the entry level class. The ease of digital has kept the market busy with sales most people purchases a camera and don't know the basics.

[IanD]

Does anybody remember when we used blue flash bulbs? Remember that they taught us to lick the contact tip before placing it into the flash gun?

---Bob Gross---
And they taught us NOT to lick the bulb right after it was flashed:):):)

Speaking of bulbs, who remembers Magic Cubes:lol::lol::lol:

[marie]

And they taught us NOT to lick the bulb right after it was flashedhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

Speaking of bulbs, who remembers Magic Cubeshttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif


http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif :cool:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif:lol: :lol:

[rdenney]

But then there was the class on how to load flash powder onto our flash units.

Gee, Bob, you must be OLD.

Rick "not NEARLY that old" Denney

p.s., but I have licked my share of flash bulbs. And I have many times looked to the focus distance (back when lenses had accurate focus scales), divided that into the guide number of the flash (taped to the back of the flash unit), and then set my aperture.

[Mark Kemp]

I have always used the approximation that on a fairly bright day at ISO100 the exposure should be around 1/125 at F8. I have never relied on it to expose a picture, but if I get a wildly different value I wonder why. Human eyes compensate very well for quite large changes in brightness and it is fairly difficult to tell what the average illumination is. So if I think its a bright sunny day and I get a reading of 1/60 at F8 from a bit of tarmac or grass I will know either its not so bright and I need to think about higher ISO speeds, or my meter is not working.

[napolar]

All - Th last time I took a photography class was in High School. Long time ago, but not long enough to learn to lick flash bulbs. I'm sure that the "sunny 16" was taught, but I have slept numerous times since then ;) After a long time with a P&S I an just getting my "feet wet" again. It's coming back slowly, and reading this forum has helped me greatly. Thanks to all of the experts out there who share information with those of us who are less informed and just trying to soak up as much as we can.

[I Simonius]

J

Does anybody remember when we used blue flash bulbs? Remember that they taught us to lick the contact tip before placing it into the flash gun? They just don't teach that good stuff these days. <for good reason>

---Bob Gross---

I loved they way they looked all cooked after they'd fired
:)

[I Simonius]

If you plan on using the "sunny f/16" rule (and you should,) send me an email. There are 3 corralleries (sp?) to the rule that I do teach my advanced students - makes it even more useful/powerful!

Tell me , tell me do!
Corollaries, I need corollaries!

:)

[I Simonius]

The sunny 16 rule is a great idea of courser if you live somehwere sunny but in the UK it is rarely (not never) sunny enough consistantly enough to make it a safe bet

It doesn't work if the sun is low, if there is haze,or unless trhe subject is in direct sunlight

My old standby used to be expose my palm in the same light as the subject and open up one stop

[JaertX]

Judging from this thread, it isn't obvious that it is still taught.

Back when I took a photography class, cameras were so simple that stuff like the Sunny 16 rule was the sort of material that they had to teach.

But then there was the class on how to load flash powder onto our flash units.

Does anybody remember when we used blue flash bulbs? Remember that they taught us to lick the contact tip before placing it into the flash gun? They just don't teach that good stuff these days. <for good reason>

---Bob Gross---

It will make your heart warm to know that the local juco has decided fundamentals 1 and color 1 will ALWAYS be pure film. From those classes on out, it will be a mix as they don't want to be left in the stone ages.

BTW, I love film. I'm saving for a 20D or whatever is available when I have the amount saved, but I REEEEALLY would like to have the room to set up a full darkroom.

Ooooo...and have a large format camera. I think film will always have it's place.

[dicky109]

Speaking of bulbs, who remembers Magic Cubes

MagicCubes? Pretty modern for me. Press 25 bulbs, now that's a flash! Great idea, take a fragile glass ball, fill it with steel wool and zap that with an electric current. Sometimes they'd go off like that scene in "The Natural", when Robert Redford hits the home run into the field lights.

Oh yeah, that movie's probably as old as MagicCubes.

[robertwgross]

I think film will always have it's place.

I would have agreed completely, up until about a year ago.

There are a few places where large format and medium format still work, but those places are gradually becoming more remote. When you figure in film cost and processing cost, it is even more remote.

I was doing a photography workshop in one of the large national parks. The instructor was shooting his 8x10 view camera. When he used color, it was costing him $20 per frame. I was shooting 35mm Velvia, and it was costing me about 25 cents per frame.

Then, he would hit his shutter release just as the breeze blew, and that rocked his camera enough that he would curse (another $20 down the drain).

---Bob Gross---

[JaertX]

Then, he would hit his shutter release just as the breeze blew, and that rocked his camera enough that he would curse (another $20 down the drain).

ouch.

Well, it's still fun. I'm glad that I'm learning film. Hopefully it will serve me well if I'm 100% digital someday.

Actually, it'd be nice to someday be able to burn film at $20+ a frame and not go broke!

[JaertX]

The sunny 16 rule is a great idea of courser if you live somehwere sunny but in the UK it is rarely (not never) sunny enough consistantly enough to make it a safe bet

It doesn't work if the sun is low, if there is haze,or unless trhe subject is in direct sunlight

My old standby used to be expose my palm in the same light as the subject and open up one stop

hmm...sunny f/4 rule in the UK?

[lostdoggy]

Talk to my neice this weekend and had to show her how to hold a SLR. What do they teach these kids in college these days?

[soupdragon]

I am more than impressed that some of this forums users have an understanding of these things.

By the way, large format photographs are (subject dependant) really amazing.

[lancea]

Speaking of bulbs, who remembers Magic Cubes
I'm still searching for an adaptor for my 20D :) But much better were the strips of bulbs that fitted on a Polaroid SX-70 (if memory servers me correctly, the odds being about 50/50). Ah the smell of a recently-fired flash bulbs (awfull as I recall). Photographic equipment really has got so boring ....

[mmahoney]

OK .. I'll play :D who remembers darkcloths, cocking the shutter, loupes, groundglass & film holders ?? ;)

4 X 5 sheet film anyone ? .. loading the film in a dark bathroom at midnight with towels jammed up at the door crease using only the notches at the edge of the film to guide the right way into the film holder ?

Or how about the Pentax P67 :lol: :lol: .. a real mans camera with a WOODEN handle ?

Names like Rodenstock & Schneider that produced postcard sized transparencies on a lightbox so sharp 'yer eyes bled ?:lol:

Anyhow enough of all that,
Mike

[Tumak]

I still have blue flash bulbs in my basement. Somewhere with my old brownie and flash. Actually, now that I think of it, that corner of my basement looks like a photo museum, 120, 620, 127 film cameras, an old stereo realist, a camera that was designed to go to the moon until nasa got smart enough to use a modified hassy or whatever it was.

[Tumak]

Also, 5x7, lenses, 4x5 film, old dark room clock (just couldn't get rid of it) most of the stuff mmahoney mentions, left over small parts from speed graffic, mamiya 2 1/4 twin lens, pentax 645 is the closest I can get to the p67. Do have an old honeytwell light gun that plugs into the wall.

[kitacanon]

What Jon said +
add a half stop for side light
add a full stop for back light and for darker subjects for detail AND for brighter subjects too, to render them as bright as they really are...(the camera will see bright white as neutral - 18% - grey, much darker than you saw it).

the closer you are to the shadows the more they matter (in getting detail) so the more you need to increase exposure

[scrumpy]

Judging from this thread, it isn't obvious that it is still taught.

But then there was the class on how to load flash powder onto our flash units.

---Bob Gross---

OMG I had one of those :lol: :lol:

[20droger]

The Sunny-16 Rule, which workd for either film of digital, says that, if the shutter speed is set to the reciprocal of the ISO, the aperture will be approximately f/16 for subjects in bright sunlight. This means that if the ISO is 100, the shutter speed is set to 1/100s and the aperture is set to f/16 for a subject in bright front-lit sunlight. Add one stop if sidelit, add 2 stops if backlit.

The Sunny-16 rule assumes the following exposure compensation for various scenes:

–1 = BRIGHT = Sunny day on snow or sand.
0 = SUNNY = Bright sunny day, sharp shadows.
+1 = HAZY = Sun through haze or thin high clouds, distinct but soft shadows.
+2 = CLOUDY = Bright cloudy day, very soft shadows.
+3 = OVERCAST = Overcast day or open shade, no shadows.
+4 = HEAVY = Heavily overcast day.
+5 = DEEP = Deep shade or deep woods on sunny day.
+6 = STORM = Just before heavy storm. Deep woods on overcast day.
+7 = OFFICE = Brightly lit office or store interior.
+8 = STAGE = Well-lit stage or indoor sports arena.
+9 = HOME = Well lit home.
+10 = SOFT = Softly-lit home.

There used to be readily-available Sunny-16 Calculators (usually slide rules). These served as excellent learning aids, especially in conjunction with an in-camera meter. They were especially useful for learning to estimate what the actualy scene lighting was. Unfortunately, these seem to have vanished with the advent of fully automatic cameras.

I have re-created a make-it-yourself Sunny-16 Slide Rule, shown in the attached pic. For those of you who wish to make and play with one of your own, PM me your email address and I will send you a PDF file containing assembly and operating intructions and patterns. Your email address will be used only for this. It will not be kept or passed on.

Roger

[Franko515]

20drodger i sent you a PM with my email.

Thanks in advance :D

[ggw2000]

Normally I shoot at ISO 100 on bright sunny days and also at F8. I know from the rule that I should have a shutter speed of 1/500th in this scenario. If i'm in A/V mode and don't have this shutter speed with evaluate metering then I switch to "M" mode and setup this way. I found out using this method in A/V mode that my 30D was overexposing by 1/3 stop and now set the EC to -1/3 when shooting on sunny days.
My little pea brain can't remember all the other associated situations at this point but I do know the "sunny" day adjustments :lol: ! Gerry

[Titus213]

Excellent responses. Anyone notice this thread is just two years old? After 2 years the OP is probably a highly recognized professional photographer.:lol:

[Tumak]

Yeah, and probably has a new camera.

[Tumak]

Yeah, and probably has a new camera.

[coreypolis]

just don't ask cwphoto what it is. He seems to think its F/16 at 1/iso - 1/3.

[jr_senator]

The rule is f/16 aperture at a shutter of the reciprocal of the ISO.



For some perhaps. But for that 10 year old young man, in 1956, with his first camera (Kodak Duaflex IV) it was not. The only color film was ASA 80 and the only option to whatever the preset shutter speed the camera came with was 'B'. Not a lot of options there, hazy sun=f/8, bright sun=f/11, and bright sun-snow or sand=f/16.

[jr_senator]

...who remembers Magic Cubes:lol::lol::lol:

And the Magic Cube extender? It raised the cube about 3" to prevent redeye.

[Tixeon]

20droger: That's some kick a$$ looking slide rule there. I have one of the original Kodak Pocket Guides from the '60s that has the rotary slide rule but Roger has taken it a bit further. When in Vietnam in the 1965 I bought a Minolta SRT100 that had a broken meter. I used the Sunny 16 rule & shot a lot of Ektachrome slides with great results. I did not have the pocket guide with me then.

[20droger]

I created it for my other half to use as a learning tool. She found it very helpful. It then tweaked it a bit for this thread.

If anybody should want it (including POTN itself), all they need do is ask. The price can't be beat!

[Franko515]

Thanks 20drodger for the slide rule :cool:

[Mollym/CA]

But then there was the class on how to load flash powder onto our flash units.

Did they teach you how to get the spores out of the ferns to make the flash powder?

[Mollym/CA]

then, he would hit his shutter release just as the breeze blew, and that rocked his camera enough that he would curse (another $20 down the drain).

That's exactly what keeps me from adding film --now that my digital teachers (Canon cameras) have taught me a bit of what photography's about.

Doesn't keep me from dreaming though --whenever I look at a Steichen or an Avedon or or or... picture from the last century. Can't imagine digital and digital PP ever getting very near some of what those cameras and those men could do. (The only reason it's "those men" is I don't have a Dorothea Lange book yet--)

m