Hopelessly Unprofessional ...

[Digital Prophet]

I am, I can admit it.

Here is the deal (short version) I was doing a charity volunteer event for the City photographing the event. Well I passed out quite a few cards and shook some hands. So that is good.

But I was taken to meet the City's communication director. This person NEVER personally meets with vendors unless they have a long history. Well she and I had a nice, casual 1/2 hour chat. And in the course of the talk she told me three times (I was counting) that she "really hoped that we can create a lasting working relationship between yourself and my department". And " ... I made a point to come to this even because I knew you would be here and I wanted to meet you and discuss this project." I was flattered.

But here is the problem. The director is looking at changing consultants that the city uses for photography. And, even though she didn't come out and say it, I think I might (just might) have a shot at plucking that apple off the tree. But first I have to give her an estimate for a small project.

She is wanting a project completed that would entail approximately 20 shots (delivered digitally) of citizens shopping at stores, recreating, eating at restuarants and general lifestyle imagery for use online and in varied publications. I do know (from past experience) that the city wants to have unlimited print/web use of the images because it is too hard to maintain copyright license accountability with a city full of copy happy employees.

But my problem is that I have not one single clue how to structure a pricing estimate for her. All of what I have done to now (even for the other city projects) has been very limited in scope and delivery use. I know for sure that I will need to have AT LEAST 10 locations. The shots will all be on location and probably all be with small flash head lighting (no large light stands) and I may need an assistant. I don't know about permits or insurance requirements. I know that I will be delivering 20 images but will undoubtedly take more. I know what they want in terms of copyright use but I want to keep resale and promotion rights. I don't know if I can/will use citizens I find or need models. Should I consider property and model releases? Or just model? Or even that since most of this will be on city property?

There is so much to consider. So I guess I am asking you guys/gals to help me see what I am forgetting. I want to make a good impression b/c this "could" be a great opportunity for me and the beginning of alot of work. Or it could be nothing.

I am going nuts just thinking on it.

- Digital Prophet -

[Vegas Poboy]

Don't feel bad about not knowing what to charge I run into this problem weekly. Even when I ask my instructors I always get a different answer and the way the digital world is going today someone out there will just about give away their work.
The issue is unlimited use of each photo
Cost of production for each photo
Speaking with a couple of Pro's in the past there is two ways to handle this.
1) Charge an hourly rate that is high enough to cover time & labor with usage fees included. I know of one photographer who charges $175.00 per hour and photo credits. He states thats the easy way for him to charge and be done with the client on that type of level.
2) Another pro I know would charge an hourly rate $125.00 an hour and then make a fair deal on price per file. Never can get a straight number from him do to he adjust prices per the market & client.
I'm not sure if this helps, I'm hoping others will comment.
Good luck

[Bruce Hamilton]

Should I consider property and model releases? Or just model? Or even that since most of this will be on city property?

Since you're shooting on city property, which is technically public, you probably won't need property releases... However, you must have model releases from everybody who poses, if the photos are to be used in any commercial nature.

If you don't cover your backside now, you may find yourself in debt for the rest of your life paying off lawsuits from your models.

[Rense]

Digital Prophet,

In the Netherlands we have a leaflet that describes some prices you can ask for different kind of pictures / types of assignment.

For instance the price for one day (8 hours) is about Eu 900,
For national websites, picture size 400x600 and a license for more than one year: about Eu 900 if the picture is on the homepage otherwise you deduct a certain amount based on the linkdepth from the homepage. In any case you should demand that your name is mentioned next to the picture and there is a disclaimer about copyright. Finally any extra work (research, waiting, driving etc) can be charged at about Eu. 50

Does this help you in any way?

[PhotosGuy]

I'd use models for the people shots. Less pain in the long run. Shallow DOF, or WA of them should make the other people very blurred, or small, & unidentifiable.

[tim]

Why should a photographer charge any differently from every other professional? When a plumber fixes a toilet do they charge you every time you use it? I write software, I get paid by the hour, not per usage.

Personally i'd charge an hourly rate to do the work, and give them the images. It's waaay easier, and it's not like you're doing something no-one else can. I'd recommend using models too, people in the US love lawsuits and you don't want to become the target of one.

[Red]

Why should a photographer charge any differently from every other professional? When a plumber fixes a toilet do they charge you every time you use it? I write software, I get paid by the hour, not per usage.
The standard way to charge for software is by license fee, so you get paid for every new person that uses it without doing any more work. How is that different?
A plumber provides a service. A photographer (like a software programmer) produces a product.

[tim]

The standard way to charge for software is by license fee, so you get paid for every new person that uses it without doing any more work. How is that different?
A plumber provides a service. A photographer (like a software programmer) produces a product.

Good point. I'm a contract programmer, they pay for my time, and they keep the product of my work. If you're building a product that's different, you invest a LOT of time and money into that before you make any return. A photo, on the other hand, usually takes a lot less effort to take, though the equipment can be a little pricey.

I'd probably still go the route of charging for your time, unless you have a very specialised skill/art/nieche that means your work is in great demand.

[PhotosGuy]

(This is where using stock photography comes in handy. Make a crummy print and then trace it out on white stock paper. When they get the actual photo, they'll be amazed). :D:D:D I love that idea!

I would not price this by the job as the "job" will never be finished! As the pics go up the line through the approval process, someone will always have to add his/her input as in, "I made him retake this pic 'cause..." So, I would write it $X per hour for X # of shots for the initial shoot. Reshoots will be at the rate of... ;)

[Digital Prophet]

Well I certainly appreciate all of your posts.

Just as an update I submitted a preliminary quote based on the outline of what the director and I discussed. And I gave her a call to "touch base" (I hate all those buzzy office oriented retard terms). And we briefly discussed the matter and there seemed to be little trouble on either end.

Of course you never know how things will work out until they do in fact work out and the check is cashed. So like Bloo Dog I am advancing cautiously and after reading his comments I will be adding a section to my quote concerning reshoots. But having discussed the project there has yet to be any discussion of undertaking any part of the project before contracts are signed.

And while I really should have quoted her a higher price to account for lost usage fees Bloo Dog can rest assured that there are several thousand dollars in it. At least at this point. Hopefully it will work out.

- Digital Prophet -

[PhotosGuy]

Quoting per hour to an organization that LOVES to award jobs to the lowest bidder and to break costs down to components seems a bit dangerous. I understand what you're saying, Bloo, but at this point in my life, Cheap Shots can have the job & the client can have the headaches if that's the way they decide to go. Penny pinching clients are more trouble than they're worth. Think of them as "The mother of the bride" in a $500 wedding. ;-)

[chtgrubbs]

This kind of job could be a goldmine, or a landmine depending on the attitudes and ethics of the people who you will be working with. You may need to CYA with a Kevlar girdle or maybe they are cooperative, reasonable people who will be a joy to work with. The job itself certainly sounds like good shoot. I wish you well.

When people approach me for something like this, I immediately ask them if the already have a budget. If the project has reached a certain stage and the client is at all professional then they will have some idea about what they can spend. If they say "Oh, we really don't have any money budgeted for it" then they expect it for nearly free or they have no experience hiring photography and you will have to educate them about why you are so expensive. If the budget is ridiculusly low you can either politely decline the job or try to convince them to up it to a reasonable amount.

On the other hand, you might run into this situation. A well-know commercial pro in San Francisco I knew was approached by the dairy group ( the "Got Milk?" people) to do a photograph. They showe him a layout and discussed the photo and asked him how much he would charge to shoot it.
"What's your budget?" he asked. "Three thousand" they said. " OK, I can do it for that". He did, and it only took him half a day.

[Digital Prophet]

See now that is professional right there. Asking right off the bat what thier budget IS can put an end to alot of unneeded fretting. Had I done that when I could have A) made myself look better and B) saved alot of time.

As it stands I have a portfolio review with the Communications Director, City Manager and Mayor this coming week. Luckily for me I have a small (size doesn't matter!) body of work that I have already completed for one city department. And another small-ish body of city shots that I took in Houston's downtown. Which is good, because like the consument non-professional I really did not have a "portfolio" ready for them to view per se. My current portfolio consists of horse riding shots.

- Digtial Prophet -

[PhotosGuy]

I immediately ask them if the already have a budget. Excellent point! I always do that & thought I'd asked you, but it was in another post. (I'm STILL spending too much time here!) ;-)