White BG - What to get to Achieve

[[godfather]]

Currently I have Two Elinchrom 200ri strobes with two 25" square SB and one 135cm Octa

Since I believe I will be using only octa as the mai light, I can buy another light to get the white BG.

Bt I want to know what modifiers will be required to get the white BG.

Also, what size of BG should I get in order to get full body shots. I will be gettin gMuslin from a local tailor here

[jemersonl83]

This is the best seamless tutorial I have come accross: http://www.zarias.com/?p=71

[TMR Design]

It very much depends on how large an area you want to render as pure white. Zack's tutorial is good but it's not the 'go to' universal tutorial. There are many factors that come in to play in terms of the space you're working with, the size of the background and the distance from subject to background.

Since you're using Elinchrom strobes, one of the best ways to achieve great coverage at close range with a large and somewhat uniform hot spot is to use the 9.5 inch 135 degree wide angle reflector with a mini silver deflector installed.

[johnboy00]

Here's one I did with one light/reflector on white muslin bg and one light/softbox on subject. Subject is around 8' from bg which is about the max I can do. I think I had the bg too hot on this one, and I didn't notice the dress inside-out at bottom right.

[TMR Design]

This was shot against 9 foot white seamless. I have one Elinchrom strobe on the left side and one on the right side. By using the 135 degree wide angle reflectors with silver deflectors installed it lets me get even coverage, left to right and top to bottom, at a distance of just under 4 feet from the background. The hot spot is enlarged and the wide angle allows me to work that close without gradation and without any wrap coming back from the background. It's a very efficient way to work in a small studio where you don't have 8 feet between subject and background. The subject was just forward of the lights at about 6 feet from the background. No post processing was done to the white background.

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p403937631-4.jpg

[[godfather]]

Ok you both means I only need a reflector rathera SB or Umbrella?

[[godfather]]

Oh nice Rob, I just posted before seeing your post.

[TMR Design]

;7987033']Ok you both means I only need a reflector rathera SB or Umbrella?

There are many techniques but in a small space it's very hard to control an umbrella or softbox and neither gives the coverage of a wide angle reflector with deflector installed. I know it sounds like I'm pushing those modifiers but I haven't found anything else to give me that kind of coverage with such even light.

[[godfather]]

I understand the use of refleter, but why we use deflecter with?

Can you please explain?

[slivr]

Robert - considering you didn't post process the b/g of that image you posted, it's an excellent example showing solid technique for the relatively confined area you describe. And that the light doesn't wrap back around the edges of your model or have the background over-cooked reveals how good a control you got with your light placement, power settings, and exposures. Well done, You!

[[godfather]]

Also I understand how the BG got the pure white BG but what about the floor?

[iamdogdog]

There are many techniques but in a small space it's very hard to control an umbrella or softbox and neither gives the coverage of a wide angle reflector with deflector installed. I know it sounds like I'm pushing those modifiers but I haven't found anything else to give me that kind of coverage with such even light.

Hi Robert, can you post link to the wide angle reflector you mentioned(as there are quite some reflectors on your gear list)? I am using genesis and hopefully I can make use of this reflector as well as I got small spaces as well.

Thanks.

[Wilt]

As important as the modifier type for even coverage might be, even more important is a flashmeter with many readings taken across the visible background area, to verify eveness of illumination and intensity sufficient to prevent the dreaded grays from happening

[TMR Design]

;7988689']I understand the use of refleter, but why we use deflecter with?

Can you please explain?

The deflector is a very important part of the puzzle. Keep in mind that the wide angle reflector only serves to increase the coverage to 135 degrees but it does not change the hot spot. The hot spot still very closely resembles that of a smaller reflector. Adding the deflector reduces the level of the hot spot while increasing the size.

Part of the problem people have when trying to render a white background is that you have a hot spot and then all the areas outside the hot spot where the light is falling causes gradations. When this happens you have two choices. You either expose the background correctly for the hot spot and deal with the gradations or you expose for the corners or edges, causing the hot spot to be driven very far into clipping and excessive amounts of light return to the subject area, often causing wrap, ghosting and halos.

When the hot spot and the overall coverage are increased you virtually eliminate the rapid falloff and gradations and this means you have more control, can work your subject closer to the background without wrap, and cut out tons of unnecessary time at the computer doing post processing.

;7989080']Also I understand how the BG got the pure white BG but what about the floor?

The sweep at the bottom of the seamless is getting the same amount of light as the middle or edges and the floor behind the subject is also receiving very even lighting due to the wide angle reflector. That light is slightly higher in output because it's the light that is not deflected and is coming out the side of the deflector and wide angle reflector so when it reaches the floor the level is reduced to just about the same level as that of the background.

The subject is lit with a 53" Octa and a large white reflector is used for fill. Since the subject is sitting on the floor, the combination of falloff from subject lighting and the light reflected from the background renders the floor around the subject white with some small areas that are 1/10 to 2/10 stop under but do not show any gradations.

Hi Robert, can you post link to the wide angle reflector you mentioned(as there are quite some reflectors on your gear list)? I am using genesis and hopefully I can make use of this reflector as well as I got small spaces as well.

Thanks.

This is the 135 degree wide angle reflector:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/126519-REG/Elinchrom_EL_26164_9_5_Wide_Angle_Reflector.html

Despite the fact that every image I've ever seen of this reflector appears to have a silver interior, the reflector actually has a white interior which makes for very nice light.

As mentioned above, just having the reflector is not the complete solution. You'll also need the mini silver deflector. Unfortunately you can't just buy the silver, as they are sold in sets which include one silver and one gold.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/96794-REG/Elinchrom_EL_26303_Deflector_Set_2_for.html

[TMR Design]

As important as the modifier type for even coverage might be, even more important is a flashmeter with many readings taken across the visible background area, to verify eveness of illumination and intensity sufficient to prevent the dreaded grays from happening

Absolutely correct Wilt. By using the deflector it gives me such even lighting that I never see more than 1/10 stop difference between the center and any area outside the center, be it top to bottom or left to right. It proves to be very effective.

[hawk911]

Robert, stop feeding my addiction, please. On the plus side, I'm out of white paper, and my tileboard needs to be replaced. so until both of those happen, I'm shooting on grey paper :confused:

[iamdogdog]

This is the 135 degree wide angle reflector:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/126519-REG/Elinchrom_EL_26164_9_5_Wide_Angle_Reflector.html

Despite the fact that every image I've ever seen of this reflector appears to have a silver interior, the reflector actually has a white interior which makes for very nice light.

As mentioned above, just having the reflector is not the complete solution. You'll also need the mini silver deflector. Unfortunately you can't just buy the silver, as they are sold in sets which include one silver and one gold.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/96794-REG/Elinchrom_EL_26303_Deflector_Set_2_for.html

Thanks Robert again, since I reside in Canada, ordering 2 reflectors + 2 deflectors will probably cost me about 300+CAD. Other than lighting the background evenly, what other use of these reflectors and deflectors? The reason why I ask is because for 300+, I can probably grab 4 cheap manual flashes and I am thinking of lighting the background using these manual flashes (One per corner?). And this will also spare up my two genesis light for lighting the subject instead. Any problem with this thinking?

Thanks.

[bobbyz]

It is hard to spread light with hot shoe flash without using any modifier. Just try with single flash even at its wide zoom setting. Why make life complicated.

[TMR Design]

Thanks Robert again, since I reside in Canada, ordering 2 reflectors + 2 deflectors will probably cost me about 300+CAD. Other than lighting the background evenly, what other use of these reflectors and deflectors? The reason why I ask is because for 300+, I can probably grab 4 cheap manual flashes and I am thinking of lighting the background using these manual flashes (One per corner?). And this will also spare up my two genesis light for lighting the subject instead. Any problem with this thinking?

Thanks.

Unfortunately what you're describing is not going to work. If you've got one flash per corner you'll have 4 hot spots and plenty of falloff around those hot spots. Working at close range with any flash or strobe without the use of a modifier to increase coverage will still give you uneven lighting with rapid falloff and gradations. If you had space to pull the lights back 8 or 10 feet then coverage would increase without rapid falloff.

[bullitt731]

Absolutely correct Wilt. By using the deflector it gives me such even lighting that I never see more than 1/10 stop difference between the center and any area outside the center, be it top to bottom or left to right. It proves to be very effective.

Not to hi-jack this thread, but this follows an earlier thread of mine where Robert suggested the reflector, deflector combo for the same purpose. I should be receiving this set up to use with my BX400s by Friday. I also already have the 53 Octa, and have 2-60", and 2-46" Softlighter IIs coming in as well. I should be able to find a way to light my 10X16 vinyl background with all this equipment, hopefully in a few different configurations.

Robert, can you tell us what kind of reading we should shoot for across the background with a light meter?

[Wilt]

Not to hi-jack this thread, but this follows an earlier thread of mine where Robert suggested the reflector, deflector combo for the same purpose. I should be receiving this set up to use with my BX400s by Friday. I also already have the 53 Octa, and have 2-60", and 2-46" Softlighter IIs coming in as well. I should be able to find a way to light my 10X16 vinyl background with all this equipment, hopefully in a few different configurations.

Robert, can you tell us what kind of reading we should shoot for across the background with a light meter?


I believe he already covered that in post #15..."By using the deflector it gives me such even lighting that I never see more than 1/10 stop difference between the center and any area outside the center, be it top to bottom or left to right."

[[godfather]]

lease solve my another query, I do not want to create a new thread fo rit.

I was trying yesterxay to shoot my friend with the first ever octa in my hands. That was my first try.

I tried placing the strobe with octa at just front of the subject. BUt when I tried shooting with this setup I was standing in front of the octa facing subject, blocking the light.

I could not get a good shot with it. So how other poeple can take a shot by standing in front of the SB, in between SB and Model?

[TMR Design]

Not to hi-jack this thread, but this follows an earlier thread of mine where Robert suggested the reflector, deflector combo for the same purpose. I should be receiving this set up to use with my BX400s by Friday. I also already have the 53 Octa, and have 2-60", and 2-46" Softlighter IIs coming in as well. I should be able to find a way to light my 10X16 vinyl background with all this equipment, hopefully in a few different configurations.

Robert, can you tell us what kind of reading we should shoot for across the background with a light meter?

If you're actually asking me how to meter for pure white then that's simple. I know many will meter using an incident reading but I find too many inconsistencies with that method because if my white background is different than yours or yours is an off white then it will take a different amount of light falling on that background to render it the same as it would for mine. If you were using a thunder gray backdrop you would have to test and check the values to know how much light falling on the background that it will take to render that as pure white. When you read tutorials and ask that question in forums you get anything from 1/2 stop to 2 stops above subject exposure and there's way too much room for error and variance in the background being used.

For this reason I use reflective readings when lighting a background, especially when I want to render pure white or pure black. I've done significant amounts of testing to check and double check the values needed, using Photoshop and Lightroom to verify pure white and to know where clipping will occur.

Based on those tests I've concluded that if I want to render ANY background pure white then I need to see 4 stops reflective over my incident subject exposure.

To clarify... if I want to shoot my subject at f/8 (incident) then I need to meter my background as f/32 (reflective). If I'm shooting my subject at f/4 (incident) then I need to meter the background as f/16 (reflective). It's consistent and works every time. I don't have to worry about what shade of white and I can use gray or black. Regardless of the background, if I meter 4 stops reflective over the incident subject exposure I'll render a white background.

Variations in the background lighting greater than 2/10 stop will start to show up as gradations and 1/3 stop is sure to be a problem. By using the wide angle reflector with deflector installed I can control and limit the variation to no more than 1/10 stop from center to edge to corner. As much as you don't want to have uneven lighting due to falloff you also don't want any area to exceed that 4 stop difference or you start to clip. With even lighting there is no reason to push the level into clipping.

[iamdogdog]

This was shot against 9 foot white seamless. I have one Elinchrom strobe on the left side and one on the right side. By using the 135 degree wide angle reflectors with silver deflectors installed it lets me get even coverage, left to right and top to bottom, at a distance of just under 4 feet from the background. The hot spot is enlarged and the wide angle allows me to work that close without gradation and without any wrap coming back from the background. It's a very efficient way to work in a small studio where you don't have 8 feet between subject and background. The subject was just forward of the lights at about 6 feet from the background. No post processing was done to the white background.

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p403937631-4.jpg

Hi Robert, what angle are you pointing those 2 lights against the background? And do you mind showing how you are lighting the floor so evenly as well?

Thanks.

[TMR Design]

Hi Robert, what angle are you pointing those 2 lights against the background? And do you mind showing how you are lighting the floor so evenly as well?

Thanks.

The 2 strobes are placed right are directly in front of the edge of the seamless pointing straight back. Any angle actually creates uneven light. Pointing them straight at the seamless is what gives me the even light. The height is centered on the seamless, not the wall height. Using the wide angle reflector gives me the white floor and the subject lighting helps with the areas in front of the subject. The light that is reflected from the white seamless is just enough to give me the white floor without wrapping on the subject.

[bullitt731]

Approx how far back from the seamless are your stobes, and how far in front of the modeling light would you recommend the silver deflector be placed.

I just had the reflectors, and deflectors delivered, and will be experimenting all weekend.

Thanks

[TMR Design]

Approx how far back from the seamless are your stobes, and how far in front of the modeling light would you recommend the silver deflector be placed.

I just had the reflectors, and deflectors delivered, and will be experimenting all weekend.

Thanks

I'm able to work with my strobes roughly 4 feet from the background and I typically insert the deflectors so they are just inside the outer rim of the reflector. I haven't done extensive testing with the deflector to see how moving it slightly forward or backward affects the light. Once I saw that my setup was working I just ran with it. :D

[Player9]

This was shot against 9 foot white seamless. I have one Elinchrom strobe on the left side and one on the right side. By using the 135 degree wide angle reflectors with silver deflectors installed it lets me get even coverage, left to right and top to bottom, at a distance of just under 4 feet from the background. The hot spot is enlarged and the wide angle allows me to work that close without gradation and without any wrap coming back from the background. It's a very efficient way to work in a small studio where you don't have 8 feet between subject and background. The subject was just forward of the lights at about 6 feet from the background. No post processing was done to the white background.

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p403937631-4.jpg


Great shot.

[TMR Design]

Great shot.

Thanks man.

[bullitt731]

I'm able to work with my strobes roughly 4 feet from the background and I typically insert the deflectors so they are just inside the outer rim of the reflector. I haven't done extensive testing with the deflector to see how moving it slightly forward or backward affects the light. Once I saw that my setup was working I just ran with it. :D

Thanks Robert much appreciated, this gives me a reference point to start from.

[johnboy00]

Here's my second attempt. With just two lights, no seamless paper, and no light meter, it can be really frustrating.

[jdaly]

Here's my second attempt. With just two lights, no seamless paper, and no light meter, it can be really frustrating.

just two lights, no photoshop?

[johnboy00]

The original was portrait orientation. I expanded it to landscape and did some quick touch up of the reflection at the bottom just to post here. Here's the original with no touch up, only cropped a little to remove non-white background (is only 5 ft wide). You can see that I missed a little bit at the top right corner.

[johnboy00]

And here's the full shot, just resized and sharpened a bit. My living room "studio" is a bit cramped in width, but I can back the camera up 20 feet or so on a diagonal. I have the background at 22.5 degrees to the camera, and the background light at 22.5 degrees to the background (45 to the camera). This seems to provide a more evenly lit tile board with just the one background light.

[[godfather]]

Can you share the lighting setup?

[TMR Design]

HI John,

Looks good but you have to be real careful when those shadows are at the edge of your white background/floor. Unfortunately (or fortunately, as the case may be), it also forces you to improve your Photoshop skills to edit, remove and mask edges and hard shadow lines.

[johnboy00]

;8021150']Can you share the lighting setup?

Here it is quickly hand drawn and not exactly to scale:

[Josh_30]

Nice idea with the reflector/deflector... I wouldn't have thought of that.

Can I use a beauty dish for a similar effect since it is a similar reflector/deflector setup? I already have one, so it's just a matter of putting it on the background strobe and trying it out.

[TMR Design]

Nice idea with the reflector/deflector... I wouldn't have thought of that.

Can I use a beauty dish for a similar effect since it is a similar reflector/deflector setup? I already have one, so it's just a matter of putting it on the background strobe and trying it out.

Hi Josh,

Sorry to say that you won't get the coverage with the beauty dish. It's a larger modifier but the angle of coverage is not nearly as great as it is with the 135 degree reflector.
Depending on the size of the area you're trying to light you may be able to do it with other modifiers but in a small space I just haven't found anything nearly as functional as the wide angle reflector with deflector installed. It's a combination that's hard to beat.

[yuriyo923]

Could you post a picture with your setup please?

Hi Josh,

Sorry to say that you won't get the coverage with the beauty dish. It's a larger modifier but the angle of coverage is not nearly as great as it is with the 135 degree reflector.
Depending on the size of the area you're trying to light you may be able to do it with other modifiers but in a small space I just haven't found anything nearly as functional as the wide angle reflector with deflector installed. It's a combination that's hard to beat.

[umphotography]

This was shot against 9 foot white seamless. I have one Elinchrom strobe on the left side and one on the right side. By using the 135 degree wide angle reflectors with silver deflectors installed it lets me get even coverage, left to right and top to bottom, at a distance of just under 4 feet from the background. The hot spot is enlarged and the wide angle allows me to work that close without gradation and without any wrap coming back from the background. It's a very efficient way to work in a small studio where you don't have 8 feet between subject and background. The subject was just forward of the lights at about 6 feet from the background. No post processing was done to the white background.

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p403937631-4.jpg

Robert

awesome information as always. im guessing its safe to assume that users of the ab lights probably cant use the 135 degree reflector you posted. ive got 34' x 16'..im thinking if we have the room,,revert to another method ???

[TMR Design]

Could you post a picture with your setup please?

Sorry, no photo but here is an illustration of the setup.

[TMR Design]

Robert

awesome information as always. im guessing its safe to assume that users of the ab lights probably cant use the 135 degree reflector you posted. ive got 34' x 16'..im thinking if we have the room,,revert to another method ???

HI Mike,

A while back, when I was using Alien Bees, I did discover that the Norman reflectors and accessories would fir the AB mount and just required the slightest bend in the spring clamps on the Bee. It did not damage or change compatibility with the Bees accessories but it did provide a tighter grip on the Norman reflectors. Norman makes a wide angle reflector that is not as wide as the Elinchrom and does not accept a deflector but I found it to be very useful for increasing coverage in many applications. One such application was when I was using a single strobe behind a large diffusion panel. It did increase the coverage and to some degree increased the size of the hot spot.

I don't think it is nearly as good a solution as what I found with the Elinchrom wide angle reflector and deflector but it definitely would help and allow you greater coverage at close distances.

[iamdogdog]

Sorry, no photo but here is an illustration of the setup.

Wow, just 3 lights and no post production for pure white background for a full body shoot. Thanks again for sharing Robert. I am pretty sure this thread will increase the sales of those deflectors, before reading this thread, I don't even know what a "deflector" is :)

[yuriyo923]

Wow, just 3 lights and no post production for pure white background for a full body shoot. Thanks again for sharing Robert. I am pretty sure this thread will increase the sales of those deflectors, before reading this thread, I don't even know what a "deflector" is :)


:rolleyes: thinking I can mod something like this for a flash?? A reflector and a deflector...

[johnboy00]

Wow, just 3 lights and no post production for pure white background for a full body shoot. Thanks again for sharing Robert. I am pretty sure this thread will increase the sales of those deflectors, before reading this thread, I don't even know what a "deflector" is :)

You don't need those deflectors, or even 3 lights. Use your imagination.

[iamdogdog]

:rolleyes: thinking I can mod something like this for a flash?? A reflector and a deflector...
hey, you beat me to that, I was already thinking about making some kind of "circle or rectangle" stuff in the middle of my stofen for my flash but I am not a handy guy at all for DIY. So please let us know what's your result.

[[godfather]]

That is Great Rob, I think I should hit the button and buy another light as what that single light posted by John would be a pain in ass during full body shots or when a pose need more space.

[johnboy00]

Robert, can you please post a similar shot with a fair-skinned subject?

[TMR Design]

Robert, can you please post a similar shot with a fair-skinned subject?

Sure thing John.

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p497090056-5.jpg

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p764696282-5.jpg

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v5/p133285330-5.jpg

http://robertmitchellphotography.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p1025163335-5.jpg

[johnboy00]

The first two have no reflections at the feet. Are they not on tile board, or how do you kill the reflections without overexposing the subject? Thanks for posting.

[TMR Design]

The first two have no reflections at the feet. Are they not on tile board, or how do you kill the reflections without overexposing the subject? Thanks for posting.

Hi John,

Correct. The first 2 are not on tileboard. They were shot using white seamless on the floor. I don't like to get locked in to using one method or style. It gets boring real fast when you do that. As you can see there is no reflection but there are shadows to indicate position and directionality of the main light.

[johnboy00]

Thanks for the info. It's a very subtle difference, IMO.

[TMR Design]

Thanks for the info. It's a very subtle difference, IMO.

No problem John. I think a great deal of lighting is based on subtleties, but those subtleties keep things interesting enough so as not to appear as if you only have one style.

I also shoot on white and don't always want to render it as pure white but it's all about controlling where the gradations happen and how much of a gradation. Sometimes, if not handled correctly it can appear 'dirty' or look as if the photographer didn't quite execute the lighting and the shot effectively.

At times it makes things a lot easier to shoot on gray because the gradations don't appear the same and don't make you feel that something went wrong with the lighting.

But like anything else, it's all about the intent of the photographer, model, art director, etc.

[johnboy00]

I'm just an amateur trying to see what I can do with a couple lights, so I'm not the least bit concerned about my perceived "style" (I only do family and friends for free, and sometimes they get what they paid for). I do appreciate all your info and advice, though. This is a great place to learn for beginners such as myself, thanks to members like you.

[beichh4046]

Robert,
Is this the type that would work for AB's?http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=38434&is=REG#features

[TMR Design]

Robert,
Is this the type that would work for AB's?http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=38434&is=REG#features

Yes it is.

Although I don't post or maintain this blog I had started a while back, I do leave it online and active.

Here is a complete list of Norman accessories that can be used with Alien Bees strobes. I was very much into those modifiers and accessories when I was using Bees.

All the Type 1 reflectors will fit and it opens up a lot of possibilities.

Norman Accessories compatible with Alien Bees strobes (http://tmrdesign.com/miscellaneous/norman.html).

[mjcmb]

Rob, a couple of questions:
- which elinchrom lights could be used for BG lighting? After using the reflector/deflector setup, is much power needed at 4 feet from a 9 foot background? She usually shoots at F7ish.
- which stands are you using? I am not sure what "autopole" is.
- when metering the background and not "incident", are you shielding the meter from the strobe? I am having trouble understanding all the jargon. :)

Sorry if these questions are somewhat weird. My wife is the photographer and I am looking into surprising her with some equipment to help get better results with the seamless white background.

Thanks,
Craig

[TMR Design]

Rob, a couple of questions:
- which elinchrom lights could be used for BG lighting? After using the reflector/deflector setup, is much power needed at 4 feet from a 9 foot background? She usually shoots at F7ish.
- which stands are you using? I am not sure what "autopole" is.
- when metering the background and not "incident", are you shielding the meter from the strobe? I am having trouble understanding all the jargon. :)

Sorry if these questions are somewhat weird. My wife is the photographer and I am looking into surprising her with some equipment to help get better results with the seamless white background.

Thanks,
Craig

Hi Craig,

You can use any Elinchrom light as background lights. Even a D-Lite 2 is going to give you enough power in most situations.
BX250Ri's would work well. If you look around (B&H used department often has them) you can find the 600S or 300S which are the older analog versions of the RX series and quite often the prices are very good.

If budget is a consideration then either the D-Lite 2 or the BX250Ri would be all you need. Having more power in the background lights would be ok if they were RX strobes because of the wider range of control. WIth D-Lite's and BX or BXRi's you lose a stop of control. WHen I had 400BX's they were great but at times I needed the power lower for my background lights and I was limited so in the case of a small studio and 4 or 5 feet from the lights to the background then anything at 200 or 250 Watt seconds is going to give you all the power you need.

I don't use light stands for lights when I light for pure white. I use Manfrotto AutoPoles (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559756-REG/Manfrotto_432_3_7SET_432_3_7_Deluxe_Autopole_2.htm l) and the lights are attached to the poles using SuperClamp and SuperClamp hardware. I love the autopoles because they save so much floor space.

If I'm metering the backgrounds' reflectivity I stand at camera or subject position, point the 1 degree spot meter at various parts of the background to check for uniformity, and that's it. Ultimately I'm not concerned with small amounts of falloff from any other light source because it's completely insignificant in terms of contribution and the overall reflectivity is what's important.

[MrScott]

Wow Robert, your details have paid off!!!
Have you had the chance to test on something wider than 9'?
If so, was it as simple as moving the BG lights to 5' or 6' out?
Also, can't tell from the pics - how large is the deflector and is it formed or flat? If you could take a pic of it mounted that would be great.

Thanks for describing the setup - I've had issues with off paper background shadow reflections on tileboard. This seems like a great way to hot up the BG outside of the frame.

[TMR Design]

Wow Robert, your details have paid off!!!
Have you had the chance to test on something wider than 9'?
If so, was it as simple as moving the BG lights to 5' or 6' out?
Also, can't tell from the pics - how large is the deflector and is it formed or flat? If you could take a pic of it mounted that would be great.

Thanks for describing the setup - I've had issues with off paper background shadow reflections on tileboard. This seems like a great way to hot up the BG outside of the frame.

Based on the current placement and readings I'm getting I don't think I'd have any trouble making this exact setup work for an 11 or 12' background. Pulling the light out might be necessary to make sure all corners and edges are being lit correctly. At a 12' width I might be inclined to angle the lights in carefully but you also have to be careful doing that because now the edge will be hot and you want to keep that at the edge and out of frame for any shots you'll be taking.

The Elinchrom deflector set comes with a silver and gold deflector. They are convex and have a pebbled surface. The Mini measures just under 5" in diameter.

[hawk911]

dayyum Robert- you just make the lights click on for me with White BG shooting. Deflector the hotspot!!! Doh

[TMR Design]

dayyum Robert- you just make the lights click on for me with White BG shooting. Deflector the hotspot!!! Doh

I'm surprised this is the first that you caught that Geoff. I mention it all the time and I rarely light a white background without a deflector and the wide angle reflector. It really spreads that hot spot and with the coverage of the wide angle reflector you can get some very even pure white lighting with great coverage, even with only one light.

[hawk911]

I'm a bit slow sometimes. I know you use the wide angle reflector; just never clicked on the "de"flector

[TMR Design]

I'm a bit slow sometimes. I know you use the wide angle reflector; just never clicked on the "de"flector

The deflector also works great in a beauty dish and if you want even light that is very soft just use the deflector and a diffusion sock and you're golden.

Strip boxes are also great for using deflectors. Even the best strips have falloff from the center to the short edge. WIthout any additional modification the deflector can even things out considerably.

Obviously the deflector can be used inside any modifier. Once you have one, check it out in the various boxes. I really like using the silver deflector with the 53" Octa.

[hawk911]

I've got 'em- all 3. Gold, silver, and I have to check again if I have the white or translucent. I've used them before on the BD.

[Shadowblade]

Any ideas on how to get the wide-angle reflector/deflector combination for a Bowens S-mount?. Seems like a better solution than the bare reflector/barndoors combination I've been using, which can cause problems with hot spots.

[TMR Design]

Any ideas on how to get the wide-angle reflector/deflector combination for a Bowens S-mount?. Seems like a better solution than the bare reflector/barndoors combination I've been using, which can cause problems with hot spots.

This is a Bowens 120 degree wide angle reflector:

http://www.adorama.com/BZ1883.html

There was someone else that recently mentioned a DIY so he could use Elinchrom deflectors with the umbrella mount on his strobes. A mod or DIY would have to be created and it would either have to be specific to the strobe you're using or be designed so that it could adjust and adapt based on the different placement of the umbrella mount on the strobe.

[TMR Design]

After thinking about this some more it occurs to me that you'd have to DIY the deflector, not just the deflector holder. The Elinchrom mini deflector is just under 5" in diameter. The Bowens reflector I linked to is only 6" wide. That won't work well.

[hypers2k]

Hi guys, great thread!
has anyone come up with a similar option for bowens users?

[umphotography]

Hi Craig,

You can use any Elinchrom light as background lights. Even a D-Lite 2 is going to give you enough power in most situations.
BX250Ri's would work well. If you look around (B&H used department often has them) you can find the 600S or 300S which are the older analog versions of the RX series and quite often the prices are very good.

If budget is a consideration then either the D-Lite 2 or the BX250Ri would be all you need. Having more power in the background lights would be ok if they were RX strobes because of the wider range of control. WIth D-Lite's and BX or BXRi's you lose a stop of control. WHen I had 400BX's they were great but at times I needed the power lower for my background lights and I was limited so in the case of a small studio and 4 or 5 feet from the lights to the background then anything at 200 or 250 Watt seconds is going to give you all the power you need.

I don't use light stands for lights when I light for pure white. I use Manfrotto AutoPoles (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559756-REG/Manfrotto_432_3_7SET_432_3_7_Deluxe_Autopole_2.htm l) and the lights are attached to the poles using SuperClamp and SuperClamp hardware. I love the autopoles because they save so much floor space.

If I'm metering the backgrounds' reflectivity I stand at camera or subject position, point the 1 degree spot meter at various parts of the background to check for uniformity, and that's it. Ultimately I'm not concerned with small amounts of falloff from any other light source because it's completely insignificant in terms of contribution and the overall reflectivity is what's important.


Oh Man

I did not know these manfrotto poles existed. Thank you so much for this information. This will solve a lot of problems for my 12" wide and 32' long studio. Robert, in your opinion, are these pretty sturdy with the super clamps. I would be mounting an AB800 to them.

[umphotography]

Also not sure about these norman wide anglle reflectors with AB lighting. PCB makes a wide angle and ive used it with my umbrellas and have not tried it yet in a parabolic. It was only 12.95 so i grabbed it and thought i would experiment with it. Im thinking ill get another and experiment with it on my white backgrounds. Your right about the graduations and hot spots. Its been a pain in the A$$. I resulted to using small white shoot through umbrellas and hanging black fabric in front of them to control spill and it worked pretty good. But if a wide angle can spread it more evenly and control the spill a little easier, life would be sweet.

here is PCB's wide angle reflector for B users. they make 2 types. I have not tried these yet on a White BG but it looks like the UBR at 29.95 Might do the trick...got some experimenting to do
http://www.alienbees.com/7ur.html
http://www.alienbees.com/ubr.html

[munzzzzzzz]

I'm doing something similar and have had decent results with the 22" white PCB beauty dish with the diffusion fabric. Like the reflector Rob is using, it is spec'd out at 130 degrees coverage and comes with a deflector. It's obviously bigger, and I don't know that I'm getting the perfect results that Rob is able to achieve, but I'm pretty happy with it for the small amount of time I've worked on it. I first tried it without the deflector, and even with the diffusion dome on my Einstein's you can see a small hotspot, so I don't think think that PCB's 7" umbrella reflector is going to do the job as there would be no way to use a deflector without causing a LOT of spill. The UBR looks pretty cool, but I don't think it would work for achieving a pure white background either. The coverage pattern on PCB's website seems to imply it is designed to illuminate a single subject with falloff in the frame - not quite what you're going for.

Based on Rob's previous comments I also tried a Norman 5" wide angle reflector. They may fit on Alien Bees, but they don't seem to fit on my Einsteins - they just fall right off. I'm not about to start bending fingers on my lights, so it was pretty much a no-go. It would also be pretty hard to use any kind of deflector with them because you'd need to use the umbrella mount, but if I remember correctly the reflector's diameter puts it in about the same area as the umbrella mount - meaning you'd pretty much have to cut through the entire side of the reflector to use the umbrella mount at the same time.

So far, my experience is that the 22" beauty dish does the best job if you have limited space. If you have a wider studio and want to blow out the background like Zack Arias does, you have more options, but I just don't have the space... my "studio" is also only about 12' wide.

[TMR Design]

Hi guys, great thread!
has anyone come up with a similar option for bowens users?

Many manufacturers do make a wide angle reflector but the key to the even lighting is not only having a wide angle reflector for greater coverage but it also involves the deflector to broaden and even out the hot spot.

[TMR Design]

Oh Man

I did not know these manfrotto poles existed. Thank you so much for this information. This will solve a lot of problems for my 12" wide and 32' long studio. Robert, in your opinion, are these pretty sturdy with the super clamps. I would be mounting an AB800 to them.

Autopoles and Superclamps are a great solution and very strong. The thing to be careful of is how you mount the Autopoles. As long as you extend them so you have a very snug fit before locking the pole in place then you'll have a very strong mount.

Obviously, don't try to use the poles with a drop ceiling or a ceiling that has no structure behind it.

I use my Autopoles and Superclamps with the Bogen 042 arm and have no trouble at all with an Elinchrom 600RX (heavier than Bees) and a 69" Octa or a 54" x 72" softbox.

[TMR Design]

A beauty dish with deflector or deflector and sock is probably the next best thing to a wide angle reflector but depending on the dish it may or may not get the job done.

Regardless of how you do it, the most important thing is to produce even light and in a small space where you can't have great distance between the subject and background you need the wide coverage. Increasing the coverage without also broadening or evening out the hot spot will help but may still leave you with unwanted gradations.

[mitchman]

Autopoles and Superclamps are a great solution and very strong. The thing to be careful of is how you mount the Autopoles. As long as you extend them so you have a very snug fit before locking the pole in place then you'll have a very strong mount.

Obviously, don't try to use the poles with a drop ceiling or a ceiling that has no structure behind it.

I use my Autopoles and Superclamps with the Bogen 042 arm and have no trouble at all with an Elinchrom 600RX (heavier than Bees) and a 69" Octa or a 54" x 72" softbox.

You can also buy legs for AutoPoles. In our case, we have such a large (tall and wide) backdrop, the AutoPoles were the only choice available, as everything else was too short. We use it for mostly for our large green screen (videography).

[TMR Design]

You can also buy legs for AutoPoles. In our case, we have such a large (tall and wide) backdrop, the AutoPoles were the only choice available, as everything else was too short. We use it for mostly for our large green screen (videography).

Right but most people that are using Autopoles are doing so so that they don't have the footprint or bulky tripod legs. If they're going to add the base with legs then they might as well go back to using less bulky and stronger light stands.

[mitchman]

I just wanted to point out to people that didn't know, that you could buy legs for the Autopoles. But yeah, they take up more room. But in our case, the ceiling's so high, legs were the only option. :)

[TMR Design]

I just wanted to point out to people that didn't know, that you could buy legs for the Autopoles. But yeah, they take up more room. But in our case, the ceiling's so high, legs were the only option. :)

How high is your ceiling? You do know that you can get extensions for the Autopoles.