20D misery

[fooznut]

:mad:

Just wanted to express my complete disgust about my new D20 purchase. I bought it with the canon 17-85 lense a couple weeks ago.

seems that every picture i take is underexposed and way too soft. yeah, i know, use FEC and USM to sharpen. yada yada yada. i use a 420ex flash which improves things, but it still isn't right.

i also have a 2 year old canon G3. tonight i took some pics for comparison purposes. used both cameras, same scene, 420ex flash etc. to get to the point, no matter what i did with the D20, the pics from the G3 came out better exposed, sharper, and more color accurate. no amount of post processing could get the D20 images to match the quality of those out of the G3. I'm not exaggerating.

I'm extremely dissapointed. i've got around $2600 in this thing, and all i'd like to do is drop it off a building and walk away. Add me to the legions of unhappy D20 owners.

Anybody in the market for a new D20, 17-85, 50mm 1.4 and a bunch of filters? drop me a line.

[ssim]

You can put in the legions of happy 20D users. There has to be a reason for the exposure glitches. Have you tried to re-boot your camera to get everything back to the factory settings. Which firmware do you have on your 20D. How about posting an example with a complete exif.

[robertwgross]

For the Canon 20D, there must be a half dozen things that could be wrong and would explain this. Without details, we are only guessing.

Those could range all the way from "broken camera" to simple user error.

---Bob Gross---

[DaveG]

:mad:

Just wanted to express my complete disgust about my new D20 purchase. I bought it with the canon 17-85 lense a couple weeks ago.

seems that every picture i take is underexposed and way too soft. yeah, i know, use FEC and USM to sharpen. yada yada yada. i use a 420ex flash which improves things, but it still isn't right.

i also have a 2 year old canon G3. tonight i took some pics for comparison purposes. used both cameras, same scene, 420ex flash etc. to get to the point, no matter what i did with the D20, the pics from the G3 came out better exposed, sharper, and more color accurate. no amount of post processing could get the D20 images to match the quality of those out of the G3. I'm not exaggerating.

I'm extremely dissapointed. i've got around $2600 in this thing, and all i'd like to do is drop it off a building and walk away. Add me to the legions of unhappy D20 owners.

Anybody in the market for a new D20, 17-85, 50mm 1.4 and a bunch of filters? drop me a line.

First off your G3 is likely to provide a lot more fool-proof capability than the 20D. That means that without knowing anything the G3 will probably make better pictures than the 20D.

But I have a 20D and I know what it will do. Unless yours is broken - and I doubt very much that it is - it will produce the same magazine quality images as mine will. The thing is that you need to know how to make it go. It WILL NOT be fool proof. I requires knowledge, practice and experimentation. If you were sold that camera on the basis that it'll take a good picture with little or no training then you were misled.

What you need to make the 20D excel is an understanding of how it works. For example in your post you didn't mention what shutterspeed you were using. The G3 might be automatically giving you a faster shutterspeed than the 20D and - especially at 85mm - the 20D's shutterspeed may be too slow to give you a sharp image.

Then how are the parameters set up? I shoot RAW and nothing else. That means that the image comes out of the camera soft and flat with poor colour saturation. This I add back in camera RAW; and with Smart Sharpen in the regular part of Photoshop CS2. But I know how to hold my camera properly and I use a tripod when I can. Funny how a soft lens become sharp when it's supported properly!

My suggestion is that you sign up to take a photography course. You need to learn to use a camera that offers you complete control over the exposure and everything else. I would think that you could find an evening course that would be appropriate.

[sixshot]

Have you read the manual? I am reading the 20D manual now and I haven't even got one yet (soon, I'll have one very soon). I'll need to read it again, and again when I actually get one, but I am planning to pick it up and no the basics when I first but it. To know how to use it properly, to use its full capabilities I guess about a month taking a ton of photos and experimenting lots and lots. And maybe asking the odd question. Forward planning I hope will help!!

[tim]

The most likely cause is the user not knowing how to drive an SLR. I don't mean that to be mean. Read the manual, read up here, and practice with it, and you'll find out how much better the 20D is than the G3.

[Toogy]

What's a D20? ??? ;)

[shim]

Well, I don't know everything about cameras but I do know a little. I started with the pentax had a Richo used a Nikon had the Rebel, the Elan 7, Digital Rebel and now th 20D. Really 2 20Ds. I took one back and now this one is in NJ getting "calabrated". It's too bad you pay that much for a camera and 14 days later send it to the shop.=(

[robertwgross]

It's too bad you pay that much for a camera and 14 days later send it to the shop.=(

As I suggested, many of those turn out to be user error.

---Bob Gross---

[poke]

I can understand your frustration... I had a 10D for almost a year, and was getting fantastic quality images out of that. I upgraded about 4 weeks ago to the 20D to get the enhanced low light abilities, and I'm still struggling to find the sweet spot.

I think that the AWB works quite differently between the 10D and 20D... not suggesting one is better or worse, just that it behaves differently. Most of my images have been exposed incorrectly when letting the camera decide, with the scale set at 0.

I believe that the 20D is equally capable of fantastic images, but I can understand some people frustration when trying to sweet talk it into producing them. :)

[joeseph]

Fooznut,
you want to post some examples with exif data on the particular shots? what sort of fucussing points are being used?
folks might be able to come up with some answers if they can see what's going on...

[dispatchermike21]

How much? I could use a second one. I love mine and the pic's are great but I agree with what most folks here have said, the pic's don't do themselves you have understand the camera to make it happen.

[cactusclay]

Sorry to hear you are having problems, I hope it gets worked out.

[mbze430]

The simplest way to test this is to see if the meter is the problem. Set up both camera to shoot the same scene, and put both in M. See if the internal metering will give you the same shutter speed and apeture. If one gives a longer or wider apeture than you know there is a problem with the camera. If both give the same exact reading, and still the 20D gives a dark exposure, than its probably something wrong with the sensor.

[wibbly]

I have the same 2 cameras. I know what you mean, though for me it's mainly been with flash (420EX) that I notice the difference.

Have a look at the histogram. Is there ANY 'activity' on the right at/against/near the right hand limit of the histogram? Blown (overexposed) highlights are a real no-no in digital photography. If you can, look at histogram in an application that shows the three colour channels separately. The default channel for histograms (green, if I recall) won't show blown highlights in red or blue channels, for example.

My conclusion is that the 20D errs very much to side of caution to avoid any blown highlights. This means that you may find the whole image appears to be 'shifted to the left' on the histogram (and darker), but if you look carefully there's a little activity on the right of histogram. So the 20D gives you detail in the highlights, whereas to get more punch out of the image right out of the camera, the G3 will allow irrecoverable 'blown' highlights.

With a similar scene the histogram of a G3 photo will show some activity *against* the right hand edge of the histogram, confirming this...

As mbze420 said you could try some test shots. I would shoot a plain white card or somthing like that to start (filling the frame). It should come out being exposed the same on both cameras (mid grey) and if you fix the aperture or shutter speed (and make the ISO the same), each camera should have a very similar exposure value. By doing it this way, you'll hopefully avoid differences between the 2 camera's program modes (which combination of shutter speed and aperture it selects) and weighting of the meter (paying more of less attention to different parts of the scene).

If you're still concerned, get it looked at by a Canon Service Centre. There's a small chance you have a bad example, like with any other piece of expensive consumer electronics. Unaccepatable, I agree, but a fact of life unfortunately. Buying *professional* bodies and lenses, a mate of mine (who's picky) has been through several Nikon lenses/bodies, so it's not specific to Canon.

Regarding the softness issue, you may be better able to emulate the G3 (if that's what you want) by selecting a parameter set in the 20D that will do more agressive sharpening in-camera. Most DSLRs default to less agressive sharpening in camera on the basis that doing it later yields better ultimate quality and allows the photographer to decide how much they want after they took the photo.

The ultimate in this is shooting RAW. This basically allows you to 'develop' the photo (over and over again 'till you get it as you want) and is the image as the camera's sensor saw it with no processing (sharpening or otherwise) done in the camera.

J

[Horse]

Thanks Wibbly. You helped me understand this challenging camera a bit better. Hope fooznut doesn't give up.

[Andy_T]

Fooznut,

you have 2 options.

You can continue to rant here, throw away your 20D or sell it off cheaply and feel really misunderstood and ridiculed by your fellow forum users.

- or -

You could swallow your anger for the time being and give it a try to work constructively at finding out what is wrong with your camera. It might be a defective camera. If that is the case, Canon will fix or replace it. It might be the way you are using it. If this is the case, we will tell you what you can do better if you post some images with EXIF information.

So basically it's now for you to decide which approach you want to take.

If you decide on the second approach, we will be happy to have you here on the forum and try to help you as good as we can.

Best regards,
Andy

PS: My personal experience is that when I went from my G2 to the 20D, I was shocked how much better the images without any correction however were as opposed to my G2 images that I got with my RAW/TIFF/PS/USM workflow.

[Maureen Souza]

I hope you find someone who is willing to help you learn your camera so you truly can enjoy it.

[fooznut]

<with tail between legs, fooznut re-enters the room>

I think you all will be happy to know my 20D hasn't yet been destroyed;) It was a heat of the moment post last night, after a long work day and hours of frustration with the cameras. I'm overwhelmed by all the information you all have provided. My main concern is the 20D exposure (full auto settings and P mode also). The photos are alarmingly underexposed with a flash (even the speedlight). Not so concerned with softness issues - i understand the DSLR less aggressive in-camera sharpening. And i'm definatley an amatuer with the D20, or any DSLR for that matter. Obviously i'm in no way planning to use this camera in full auto, or i wouldn't have bought it. What i don't understand is why Canon even puts a 'full auto' feature on a higher end camera like the 20D, the resulting images can't stand up to those of lesser point and shoots. i mean, if it doesn't do the job, then leave the damn auto feature out entirely. Let me read through all your posts more thoroughly and run more tests. I'll post some photos from that along with data and maybe you all could make further recommendations.

Thanks very much to everyone for taking the time....

[blue_max]

I moved from a G5 to a 10d and the G5 gave great shots in 'p' mode. The reds in particular were much more accurate that the 10d.

I share some of your frustration.

Graham

[O/confusion]

"It's supposed to be automatic, but then I found out they lied to me--you have to push this damn button. I want my money back."

Why is it that just because advanced photographic technology that was practically unimaginable twenty years ago is now within their economic grasp, so many people these days seem to think that taking good (or even technically competent) photographs is simply a question of buying an expensive camera and pressing the shutter release? It's exactly the same attitude that is prevalent in the music sphere, wherein any kids who can afford instruments want to be rock stars, and see no reason why it shouldn't happen overnight--being competent musicians is apparently not enough of a goal to aim for: at worst, it appears to be just an annoying inconvenience to be skipped over.

Any SLR camera, film or digital, is just a tool for controlling exposure; some are more complex and have more flexibility than others, and some can do some of the work for you--but if you don't have a good grasp on what that work consists of, how can you expect to be able to control the camera adequately? In capable hands a technically advanced tool like the 20D can produce a work of art. The same tool in the hands of someone who isn't prepared to take the time to get to know how it works and, more to the point, how to work with it to get the desired results, will make a dandy (but seriously overpriced) doorstop.

Terry

[wibbly]

The photos are alarmingly underexposed with a flash (even the speedlight).....

What i don't understand is why Canon even puts a 'full auto' feature on a higher end camera like the 20D



You'll find LOADs of talk about how/if Canon's flash algorithms work - or don't - and how to overcome it - or not! To me it seems to vary on the conditions. I use a 420EX. Works ok with the 20D for me for fill flash. But when it's the main source of light the G3 seemed to do a better job. I tend to use the flash bounced, so the whole ETTL-II issue isn't appropriate, as far as I know. At least the 420EX's focus assist light works with the 20D. It's disabled when on a G3.

I use P mode. I helps for getting a 'quick shot' when I wasn't planning on taking one. A less than optimal exposure is better than a missed exposure whilst I was thinking if my last set aperture/shutter speed is still appropriate...

J

[canon2od]

What's a D20? ??? ;)

:lol:

[slin100]

My main concern is the 20D exposure (full auto settings and P mode also). The photos are alarmingly underexposed with a flash (even the speedlight).


fooznut, I firmly believe that what you are experiencing is the classic underexposure of flash that Canon built into their DSLRs. All you have to do is dial in FEC of either +2/3 or +1 stop and your results to improve dramatically. Try it. It works.

[canon2od]

Have you read the manual? I am reading the 20D manual now and I haven't even got one yet (soon, I'll have one very soon). I'll need to read it again, and again when I actually get one, but I am planning to pick it up and no the basics when I first but it. To know how to use it properly, to use its full capabilities I guess about a month taking a ton of photos and experimenting lots and lots. And maybe asking the odd question. Forward planning I hope will help!!

I agree 100%. I too read the manual before I received my 20D a few weeks ago. I could not be happier with the camera.

Thanks to this forum I learn new stuff to try everyday. Someone suggested (and it sure works for me) to take lots of pics on various settings and then review the exif info and learn what works best AND try to understand what went wrong. I am at picture 650 and 80-90% of them are properly exposed photos.

My girlfriend has also taken a lot of great photos with it in a point and shot auto mode.

[fooznut]

fooznut, I firmly believe that what you are experiencing is the classic underexposure of flash that Canon built into their DSLRs. All you have to do is dial in FEC of either +2/3 or +1 stop and your results to improve dramatically. Try it. It works.

Yup, i did shoot a bunch with +2/3 FEC (and speedlight flash) and the improvement was significant, but still the G3 did somewhat better with the 420ex and no FEC. With the built in flashes there was no comparison - 20D images were extremely underexposed while G3 were much brighter (almost overblown in some areas). I'm not giving up on my 20D. I have a lot to learn and i knew that coming into this. I want to some day be a knowledgable amatuer photographer, but right now i just want to make sure my new photographic tool is working as it should...that's where my current confusion lies....

[slin100]

Yup, i did shoot a bunch with +2/3 FEC (and speedlight flash) and the improvement was significant, but still the G3 did somewhat better with the 420ex and no FEC.
If you want to use your 20D to produce the exact same shots as the G3, then dial in whatever FEC it takes to get there. Don't be afraid to leave FEC set at something other than zero if that's what it takes to produce pictures to your satisfaction. That's what I do. I leave FEC at +1. That's my personal calibration.

[picnic]

Quote: My main concern is the 20D exposure (full auto settings and P mode also). The photos are alarmingly underexposed with a flash (even the speedlight).

Here's part of your problem right off--and surprised no one else mentioned it. Never ever use flash with A--and even P can be 'off. Try manual settings for flash. Set your aperture for the DOF you wish (start with about f/5.6) then set your shutter speed at about 1/60s. Try that. Look at your histogram. If its still dark, up your ISO to 200 or 400. This will give you handholdable flash shots that should be much better. You have to pay attention to your histogram and adjust according to that using FEC (flash exposure compensation) and adjust aperture, shutter speed and ISO accordingly. You'll get the hang of it *smile*. I always recommend people 'practice' using flash until they understand what they are getting. Flash is not 'foolproof' and you need to really understand what's going on with ETTL. Here is a good URL to read
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

I just shot 4 big commercial shoots using 3 flashes on stands with umbrellas and my 'old' 10d. I used about f/9, shutter speed set at whatever will give me the exposure for the background I desire (normally somewhere in range of 1/30s but that's a bit slow for some to handhold--I use a tripod for these shots). I normally use ISO200 for flash also but when needed I up it to ISO400---and the 20D is capable of higher with little noise

Hope this helps.
Diane B

.

[lmelendez]

Hey man

I had the same experience when I jumped from G2 to DRebel. All pictures underexposed with the 420EX. I thought it was a camera problem.... until I came here and realized that the G2 was doing everything for me. It took me a while to figure out the details.... had to spend time reading the manual and browsing the forum (and the internet).

Just don't give up. Don't drive a Ferrari the same way you would drive a Ford :)

Leo.

[Jim_T]

(I might have missed someone else pointing this out), but just to add....

The Kit lens you got with the camera is adequate, but it's crap compared to the built-in lens on your G3.. That would be one reason for softer images... You'll also find that you're hampered when shooting action shots in low light.

[wibbly]

The Kit lens you got with the camera is adequate, but it's crap compared to the built-in lens on your G3..


It is? I kind of assumed the kit lens would be better...

J

[Andy_T]

I agree with Wibbly.

It definitely is not crap compared to the G3s lens.

The G3 is a f/2.0-f/2.8 lens because of the small sensor, so it is faster, but not necessarily a lot better.

Best regards,
Andy

[willg]

yeah sounds like you just don't know how to use the camera...might want to work on that before blaming the equipment

[Fujifilmnut]

:mad:

i also have a 2 year old canon G3. tonight i took some pics for comparison purposes. used both cameras, same scene, 420ex flash etc. to get to the point, no matter what i did with the D20, the pics from the G3 came out better exposed, sharper, and more color accurate. no amount of post processing could get the D20 images to match the quality of those out of the G3. I'm not exaggerating.



When I started out in SLR photography - many years ago - I had the same experience. My simple 35mm cameras produced better results! After many years of buring film, I got the picture!

Hopefully this is just a learning curve thing and not the camera. Have you seen the dealer to show them the problems?

[kevin_c]

I must admit that my flash exposures (using the in-built flash) are a tad under exposed, but this can be corrected with a bit of flash exposure compensation.

I have yet to buy a decent speedlite (looking at the 550 or 580 EX) so cannot comment on using these.

The softness is something you learn to deal with in post-processing using photoshop etc (I use the Focalblade plugin myself). At least you get to decide how much to sharpen the images and not Canon!

As previous posters have said, have a look around this forum, ask a few questions and experiment - you will master the 20D beast :D .

[johneric8]

<with tail between legs, fooznut re-enters the room>

I think you all will be happy to know my 20D hasn't yet been destroyed;) It was a heat of the moment post last night, after a long work day and hours of frustration with the cameras. I'm overwhelmed by all the information you all have provided. My main concern is the 20D exposure (full auto settings and P mode also). The photos are alarmingly underexposed with a flash (even the speedlight). Not so concerned with softness issues - i understand the DSLR less aggressive in-camera sharpening. And i'm definatley an amatuer with the D20, or any DSLR for that matter. Obviously i'm in no way planning to use this camera in full auto, or i wouldn't have bought it. What i don't understand is why Canon even puts a 'full auto' feature on a higher end camera like the 20D, the resulting images can't stand up to those of lesser point and shoots. i mean, if it doesn't do the job, then leave the damn auto feature out entirely. Let me read through all your posts more thoroughly and run more tests. I'll post some photos from that along with data and maybe you all could make further recommendations.

Thanks very much to everyone for taking the time....




I couldnt disagree more about the full auto mode of the 20D I think that the full auto works awesome and it blows away the G3 in every aspect in my opinion. You must have a messed up 20D bro..

[Harry Settle]

You know. . . when I first got my 10D and 420EX, I had all kinds of problems getting a correct flash exposure of any kind. After reading this post I just realized that I haven't been having any problems for a few months now. I wonder what I'm doing differently?