Message to Canon

[Simon Spiers]

Would you please increase the sharpening margin in your EOS 20D, so people who want to shoot there pictures without any processing can.
As i understand, most 20D users use the middle option for sharpening. I use maximum and find this setting is 'Just' ok. If you made nominal far left on the slider, then room for two more steps would me made.
This would make a lot of people out there happy:D

Does anyone use less that than the normal setting?

[the7ferret]

A SLR will not be as sharp as a P&S we said that here a thousand times. If you want it to be sharper go into Photoshop and do unsharp mask. P&S exaggerate the contrast just like unsharp mask. A good lens will help too, however can you post a pic, it might be that your lens might not be calibrated since your using 3rd party lens. Also the 70-300 is a soft lens; I had it and got rid of it as fast as I could.

[cactusclay]

I don't use any sharp adjustment and it seems fine to me.

[Simon Spiers]

A SLR will not be as sharp as a P&S we said that here a thousand times. If you want it to be sharper go into Photoshop and do unsharp mask. P&S exaggerate the contrast just like unsharp mask. A good lens will help too, however can you post a pic, it might be that your lens might not be calibrated since your using 3rd party lens. Also the 70-300 is a soft lens; I had it and got rid of it as fast as I could.
I am happy with the results i get with my 20D The7ferret. It's for other people who are not. Canon could always dial in a bit more USM into the software i'm sure.
This is not a moan but a sugestion;)

[robertwgross]

Are you suggesting that Canon builds in more sharpening range into the JPEG settings of the camera?

Why not simply do it in DPP or whatever other utility you use when you get the images to the computer?

Besides, you are shooting RAW files, aren't you?

---Bob Gross---

[GyRob]

Im sure many people find the 20d lacking with its soft image, having to process every shot can be a real pain i have 596 from today's shoot ,yes it has some great features but i for one think the 20d is hard work and from what i have read the 1dm2 is harder work , hopefully the 1dm3 if there is one will be a camera that has something for everyone ease of use If you want it and mess about for hours if you want it .
Rob

[Phil V]

How can Canon know what the end product of our shots is? Because that's the driver behind how much USM a picture needs. With P&S it's easy to assume small prints are the final output.

I suppose they could whack up the USM for all capture sizes except large fine, because no-one would use those settings for real photography.:rolleyes: (misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=9#)

[Dante King]

Think this would take away any advantage of having a DSLR at all.

[Jesper]

Check out the following thread, in which OceanRider is complaining about the same thing:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69617

There's a lot of interesting info (also see page 2 of the thread) in there!

[O/confusion]

Im sure many people find the 20d lacking with its soft image, having to process every shot can be a real pain i have 596 from today's shoot ,yes it has some great features but i for one think the 20d is hard work and from what i have read the 1dm2 is harder work , hopefully the 1dm3 if there is one will be a camera that has something for everyone ease of use If you want it and mess about for hours if you want it .
Rob

Here we go again. As I already responded in one of several other threads earlier today where you were moaning about the 20D's lack of sharpness, if you have a halfway decent lens, select the appropriate exposure settings for the shot at hand to eliminate camera shake and get good DOF, and use good shooting technique, I know from first-hand experience that the menu's parameter 1 (at +1 sharpening only) is perfectly capable of yielding more than acceptably sharp large, fine jpeg images even when viewed onscreen at 100%--no extra post-camera processing needed.

Do you seriously expect first-rate results with no effort on your part? Then why not just hire someone else to do the photography for you? If what you really want is a foolproof auto-everything camera with "something for everyone"--which would seem to include those with too much cash on their hands and not enough knowledge or patience to either research before they buy or invest any work in improving their skills afterward--then any advanced digital SLR priced at over $1000 without a lens is probably not the best place to start looking. Why on earth would anyone even imagine that a Canon 1DAnything (at $4000+) would be geared toward the novice/bone idle part of the user spectrum?

If you're so thoroughly unhappy with the output you're getting from the 20D because you seem to resent having to participate in the process beyond aiming and pressing the shutter release, why not just put yourself--and the many users here who happen to think it's a fine piece of gear--out of your misery and sell the bloody thing to someone who doesn't mind the challenge of learning how to use it to its full potential? I really hate to be so "in your face", but I like even less the thought that someone new to this forum might be seriously put off from buying a perfectly good camera by reading your consistently carping posts about the 20D's supposed inadequacies. Sorry, but it isn't the equipment that's not cutting it here.

My apologies to all for the "sharpness" of this rant--but not for its content.
I'll go take a valium now.

sincerely,
Terry

[MDJAK]

Terry, I wholeheartedly agree.

[O/confusion]

Terry, I wholeheartedly agree.

Thanks for that, friend--I was beginning to think I was losing it for a moment there!

Terry

[felix21685]

when you mentioned to add +1 in the sharpness

what values do u suggest everywhere else?

i dont have a 20d i have an xt..
thanks

[Rob612]

My apologies to all for the "sharpness" of this rant--but not for its content.
I'll go take a valium now.

sincerely,
Terry


Terry,

I've already taken my Valium :D, so I will just add that you perfectly resonable opinions apply to almost all hobbies (not to talk about jobs) that include high-tech stuff and a high level of control over the instrument. First learn the basics, then apply to the instrument you have in hand, no matter what your interest is.

I completely agree with you.

[GyRob]

300F4Lis 17/40 L- 50 1.8 - 85 f1.8 - as long as your happy with your ( acceptably sharp large, fine jpeg images even when viewed onscreen at 100%--no extra post-camera processing needed.
) fine .
i think they should be better than acceptably sharp -they should be Sharp , im happy to except that its me and not the camera, i must set my standard's to high .
Rob

[malcolmx]

from my posts you can see that i am new to this forum ,but i follow a lot of the threads . sharpness seems to be a major concern and almost an obsession . do you realy expect a digital slr to be so contolled by canon that there is nothing left for you to do , i purchased my dslr so i could have complete(or nearly so) contol over my final image . i shoot in the raw and sselect those that i wish to futher process ,i may take 500 images in a day but i would not be so concieted to expect that they are all worthy shots a lot are discarded. As to sharpness i wonder how often those complaining of sharpness use a tripod or change the iso to get a faster shutter or see if the speed is in relation to the focal length.
i am suprised at whow many of you are buying these expensive "computers" and yet seem to want not more control but less "oconfusion" seems to be right ,i would also add learn to take photographs not just to snap pictures

[Bsmooth]

Talk about a tuff crowd! Hope you don't treat newbies like this or they may just never really get into photography at all!Theres almost a two tier learning curve here and one of them has little to do with photography at all. I've known a few great photographers who just couldn't get past the computer part of it and went back to film.Its almost two different aspects and the two just aren't related at all.theres the artistic side(photographer) and then the technical side(computer).Its a tuff marriage indeed and one you have to put a lot into to get the best results,but there are some which will neverget to grips with both aspects,and thats too bad because think how many great photographers there are out there whose work we'll never see.

Its a lot to get used to and all at once too,but like everything else,you only get what you put into something.There are also some who will just never "get it"

[TonyKInTexas]

A one size fits all product rarely fits anyone.

Im sure many people find the 20d lacking with its soft image, having to process every shot can be a real pain i have 596 from today's shoot ,yes it has some great features but i for one think the 20d is hard work and from what i have read the 1dm2 is harder work , hopefully the 1dm3 if there is one will be a camera that has something for everyone ease of use If you want it and mess about for hours if you want it .
Rob

[TonyKInTexas]

I have to agree. That is why I don't have a P&S is because I participate in the process.

I shoot with Tamron 28-75F2.8; Canon 70-200F4L and Tamron 17-35F2.8-4 and all of my images are acceptable sharp. My 20D is set on RAW 90% of the time and I have never had an issue in post processing my images.

Terry, I wholeheartedly agree.

[TonyKInTexas]

Sharpness is a subject issue in a lot of cases. Then there are other causes for lack of sharpness, such as a soft lens, hand shake, subject motion, etc.

When I was much younger I could hand hold a camera to 1/15 of a sec and get good results. Most days it is now 1/60 (sometimes 1/30 if I am really good). So my solution was a monopod.

We all can usually agree on OOF shots. But what is sharp and what is over sharpened are subject issues. I would rather NOT have my camera sharpen too much. Its like a hair cut, once it goes over a threshold, it can't be undone. :)

300F4Lis 17/40 L- 50 1.8 - 85 f1.8 - as long as your happy with your ( acceptably sharp large, fine jpeg images even when viewed onscreen at 100%--no extra post-camera processing needed.
) fine .
i think they should be better than acceptably sharp -they should be Sharp , im happy to except that its me and not the camera, i must set my standard's to high .
Rob

[TonyKInTexas]

To me there are not two aspects of photography, at least not new aspects.

There has always been at least a two step process. The first is capturing the image. The second is rendering the image in a manner to be viewed. If one wants to get really technical there is a third aspect which happens before capturing the image and that is the setup. Commercial shooters, portrait folks and others have to content with setup before they can even capture the image.

So the only aspect that has really changed is the rendering of the captured image in to a viewable medium. I would never go back in to a darkroom. Besides not wanting to deal with the chemicals I am more productive and produce much better work using a computer to process my images.

Some folks who never get the transition between darkroom and computer/digital processing are possibly folks who have always used professional labs to process their film and images. These folks have control over cropping and provide input in to processing by detailed instructions. They generally don't care to be in the darkroom though.

Guess what, there are places that will do this for the digital professional if one just looks.

Now I would be a fool if I tried to say film=digital. It does not. There are differences in both texture and tone. That is why we have so many people creating PhotoShop filters/actions that simulate certain films. And they do a good job. But digital is not film and we should respect the differences between the two, including processing.

Take care,


Its almost two different aspects and the two just aren't related at all.theres the artistic side(photographer) and then the technical side(computer).Its a tuff marriage indeed and one you have to put a lot into to get the best results,but there are some which will never get to grips with both aspects,and thats too bad because think how many great photographers there are out there whose work we'll never see.

Its a lot to get used to and all at once too,but like everything else,you only get what you put into something.There are also some who will just never "get it"

[mrclark321]

LOL .......Non illigitamus carborundum

[O/confusion]

300F4Lis 17/40 L- 50 1.8 - 85 f1.8 - as long as your happy with your ( acceptably sharp large, fine jpeg images even when viewed onscreen at 100%--no extra post-camera processing needed.
) fine .
i think they should be better than acceptably sharp -they should be Sharp , im happy to except that its me and not the camera, i must set my standard's to high .
Rob

Your standards for what--microphotography of obsidian blades viewed at 8000x magnification? What is this amazing subject matter you're working over with such a hyper-critical eye?

You know, there comes a point when the Quest for Ultimate Sharpness becomes little more than masturbation. The truly hard part of the photographic endeavour lies in working to make one's images interesting and appealing enough to set them apart from all the others in the almost overwhelming static of incredibly banal visual output that already saturates our environment.

Being able to carve a ham with a photographic image at ten paces is surely no indicator of its worthiness in any other capacity except that of validation of its creator's ability to skilfully operate good equipment. For my part, I'll stack a well-developed aesthetic, and a measure of practiced technical competence, ahead of any piece of gear currently in existence in terms of importance in the image-making process. Better equipment can probably always enhance a brilliantly conceived and well-executed image; sadly, all it will ever do for visual dross is make it sharper-looking visual dross.

If not being able to shave with your images is your biggest problem, and it's ruining your enjoyment of photography to the point where you have to complain about it to everyone, then chances are that you are probably either an overly obsessive creative genius, or a mediocrity with more complex and expensive equipment than you are ready for. I'm in no position to judge. (Nice lenses, by the way.)

I can't wait for the Canon 1DVisual-Artist-in-a-Can to come out! Until then, I guess I'm just going to have to struggle along on hard-won experience and a little artistic talent--and my lousy piece of crap 20D--and view my images from a normal distance instead of under a microscope. Damn. :D

Terry

[O/confusion]

when you mentioned to add +1 in the sharpness

what values do u suggest everywhere else?

i dont have a 20d i have an xt..
thanks

Not sure what the options are on the XT, or whether the algorithms are even closely related, but on the 20D the pre-set parameter 1 menu option for jpeg output is: contrast +1, sharpness +1, saturation +1, colour tone 0. This works just fine for me, so far, for on-screen viewing of casual shooting and practice efforts. When I know I'm going to be doing the kind of work that may lead to wanting to print something at a decent size after a session, I shoot RAW and post-process in Photoshop. That's why I bought the 20D in the first place.

regards,
Terry

[O/confusion]

from my posts you can see that i am new to this forum ,but i follow a lot of the threads . sharpness seems to be a major concern and almost an obsession . do you realy expect a digital slr to be so contolled by canon that there is nothing left for you to do , i purchased my dslr so i could have complete(or nearly so) contol over my final image . i shoot in the raw and sselect those that i wish to futher process ,i may take 500 images in a day but i would not be so concieted to expect that they are all worthy shots a lot are discarded. As to sharpness i wonder how often those complaining of sharpness use a tripod or change the iso to get a faster shutter or see if the speed is in relation to the focal length.
i am suprised at whow many of you are buying these expensive "computers" and yet seem to want not more control but less "oconfusion" seems to be right ,i would also add learn to take photographs not just to snap pictures

Yes, yes, yes!!!

Regards,
Terry

[Andy_T]

Still, I find it a bit strange that people continue to rant about the need to post-process.

With your film cameras, did you look at the undeveloped negatives?

Best regards,
Andy

[O/confusion]

Still, I find it a bit strange that people continue to rant about the need to post-process.

With your film cameras, did you look at the undeveloped negatives?

Best regards,
Andy


:lol:

Right on.
Terry

[Longwatcher]

I think some people are forgeting that the 20D is a "in between" camera. In between amatuer and Pro, although it leans towards the Pro market.
Having previously used the D60 and 10D, If I wanted to shoot just jpeg, I too wished for Canon to have an option of a higher sharpness setting then I could get.
That said, when I am taking RAW pictures, I want Canon to do as little as possible to the image (I except anti-aliasing and noise reduction) before I get to it.

The reason for the difference is I consider the jpegs to be a final product (like slide film) and the RAW to be an intermeadiate step (like a negative). I don't think that Canon sets the default high enough and then doesn't give me enough range to go higher.

All of the above said,
I now have a 1DsMkII, always shoot in RAW +jpeg and it is far easier to use then my 10D and D60 were (after I figured out the buttons). I suspect having more knowledge of what to do also contributes.

Just my opinion and experience,

[MDJAK]

Still, I find it a bit strange that people continue to rant about the need to post-process.

With your film cameras, did you look at the undeveloped negatives?

Best regards,
Andy

Andy, you've also hit the nail on the head. I try to remind people that in the film days (are they over yet?) one was lucky if two or three pictures out of a roll of 36 would elicit oohs and aahs, let alone be good enough to blow up.

I think almost half the fun is post processing the pictures. When you can take an average picture and make it spectacular, then you've accomplished something.

[Hellashot]

Would you please increase the sharpening margin in your EOS 20D, so people who want to shoot there pictures without any processing can.
As i understand, most 20D users use the middle option for sharpening. I use maximum and find this setting is 'Just' ok. If you made nominal far left on the slider, then room for two more steps would me made.
This would make a lot of people out there happy:D

Does anyone use less that than the normal setting?

Don't you dare say that to Canon, they might listen! For people wanting to print directly from a camera, let them get a P&S. A 20D is not intended for a user wanting to use their images in that way! ugh.

[Jon]

Don't you dare say that to Canon, they might listen! For people wanting to print directly from a camera, let them get a P&S. A 20D is not intended for a user wanting to use their images in that way! ugh.

Since Canon's included that capability in the 20D, 1Ds Mk II and 1D Mk II they evidently don't agree with you . . .

[BillH2]

Thanks )/confusion and others for some of your responses here, I really had some concerns about getting a 20D from all the complaints, but went with my gut fellings and bought it anyway. I think I will be satisfied I am so far. A newbe like myself could get discouraged before they start with all the negatives, but I guess human nature is prone to complain first and compliment second. Wish me luck with my new 20D.

[Andy_T]

A newbe like myself could get discouraged before they start with all the negatives...

Don't start with negatives, silly. It's digital :lol:

J/k, if you have questions, come back here and ask!

Best regards,
Andy

[blue_max]

When you have removed all element of creative thought from a camera, you have removed the very point of trying to master it.

A sheep once said.

Graham

[ssim]

I have the 20D and the 1DMKII. I have just finished going through some 1700 images taken on a trip. About a third of those were taken with the 20D. I was surprised that many of the 20D images didn't require any sharpening at all. I shoot nothing but RAW and have no sharpening settings in the camera. Most of the 20D shots taken with 16-35 f2.8 L, 24-70 f2.8 L or the 70-200 f2.8 L IS. I do think that good glass does make a big difference.

I am perplexed as to why many people here are so "down" on the 20D even when they do have decent glass. There can't be that many flaky 20D bodies out there.

As for the message to Canon, they would be fools to not monitor the more popular forum boards out there to see what is being said about there products. Will they add more sharpening options to the next generation of DSLR's? Who knows but from my perspective it certainly isn't required as I would much rather manage my images in post processing. I don't find the 1DMKII images any harder to work with than the 20D, as was mentioned by someone in here.

[O/confusion]

Thanks )/confusion and others for some of your responses here, I really had some concerns about getting a 20D from all the complaints, but went with my gut fellings and bought it anyway. I think I will be satisfied I am so far. A newbe like myself could get discouraged before they start with all the negatives, but I guess human nature is prone to complain first and compliment second. Wish me luck with my new 20D.

You're very welcome, Bill. And good for you for not letting the nay-sayers wear you down. Hope once you learn how to use its various features to their best effect you'll enjoy it as much as I do!

regards,
Terry

[mrclark321]

With 28,876 members in this forum I hope Canon has this site listed as a Fav. on there web browser

[karjar]

As a newbie to digital photgrahpy, and an oldie to film, be it many years ago that I focused on the hobby, I can sure relate to this. I find myself relearning the basics, reminding myself of what I once knew, and at the same time trying to learn the new "RAW, sharpness, Photoshop, resolution,etc, etc.). I have to continually remind myself to break it down, take little junks, and have fun because for me it is a hobby, an expression, not a job (thank God, or I would be very broke!) It reminds me of the difference of those that say they "want to play piano" as opposed to those that "want to learn to play the piano". I think if I could pick up a camera and everything was perfect for me, and everyone else, I would probably loose interest real fast. It is the challenge, the learning, the growth, and ultimately the results and self satisfaction that make it enjoyable for me. Having said that, patience is still something I lack :)

[robertwgross]

Im sure many people find the 20d lacking with its soft image, having to process every shot can be a real pain i have 596 from today's shoot

I think that is why they invented batch conversion.

---Bob Gross---

[rdenney]

Message to Canon's Customers:

"We here at Canon take seriously our commitment to serious photography. As such, we strive to produce cameras for professional and serious amateur use that provide as little manipulation of the image as possible. The images you get from our digital SLR's are intended to include only real information--that is--information from the actual scene as projected onto the sensor by the lens. For example, we provide filters for the sensor to prevent interference effects (i.e., moire and aliasing) between subject patterns and the sensor pixel grid, because these effects are artifacts and not part of the scene.

In keeping with this commitment, we have constrained the software in our digital SLR's to avoid any processing that could obscure the actual projected image. We are committed to the artistic objectives of our customers, and therefore provide them with a starting image not impaired by the artifacts of processing for such things as sharpness and contrast. Our customers are therefore empowered to determine for themselves what enhancements fit within their artistic objectives and desired display method. The software we provide with our digital SLR's provides the full range of subsequent processing capabilities to help our customers meet their objectives."

Rick "who wrote this himself but who thinks Canon should put it on Page 1 of the manual" Denney

[rdenney]

Im sure many people find the 20d lacking with its soft image, having to process every shot can be a real pain i have 596 from today's shoot ...

One word: Breezebrowser.

www.breezesys.com

Rick "who can extract jpegs or convert from RAW, adjust levels, adjust gamma, rotate, rezise, sharpen, and compress to JPEG a whole folder of images in one step, then dump them on a CD and take to Costco for making 19-cent proofs, saving the more time-consuming manual manipulation for those that will get enlarged" Denney

[O/confusion]

Message to Canon's Customers:

"We here at Canon take seriously our commitment to serious photography. As such, we strive to produce cameras for professional and serious amateur use that provide as little manipulation of the image as possible. The images you get from our digital SLR's are intended to include only real information--that is--information from the actual scene as projected onto the sensor by the lens. For example, we provide filters for the sensor to prevent interference effects (i.e., moire and aliasing) between subject patterns and the sensor pixel grid, because these effects are artifacts and not part of the scene.

In keeping with this commitment, we have constrained the software in our digital SLR's to avoid any processing that could obscure the actual projected image. We are committed to the artistic objectives of our customers, and therefore provide them with a starting image not impaired by the artifacts of processing for such things as sharpness and contrast. Our customers are therefore empowered to determine for themselves what enhancements fit within their artistic objectives and desired display method. The software we provide with our digital SLR's provides the full range of subsequent processing capabilities to help our customers meet their objectives."

Rick "who wrote this himself but who thinks Canon should put it on Page 1 of the manual" Denney

Thank you, thank you, Rick. I think you just nailed this thing down, and I only wish this explanation would be permanently fixed in the FAQ so that all those with gripes about the 20D's "lack of sharpness" can just be directed straight to it in future.

Sadly, though, I suspect that even if Canon were to print such an advisory in large red letters on the top of the box the camera comes packed in--let alone on the front of the manual--there would still be those who wouldn't bother to read it, and who wouldn't understand what all this has to do with what they like to interpret as an inconvenient, user-hostile camera's crappy performance even if they did.


Cheers,
Terry

[HMetal]

If you need sharper photos, shoot JPG with L glass. Otherwise, make sharpening a part of your post-shooting workflow.

Personally, I don't use any in-camera sharpening. I like to make my own creative decisions in that regard.

There are software programs out there that will do batch sharpening, so I don't buy the "I can't sit and process 500+ images just to sharpen" line. Don't. Set the sharpening percentage/value in the program (e.g. Photoshop can do it, C1 can do it, and I'm pretty sure RSE can do it) and then go have a beer or two while the batch is processed.