Pre-School Portraits

[OneDay]

The pre-school where my children go have a portrait photographer that comes in during the fall for all the students and then in the spring for the oldest class which is moving on to elementary school for graduation.

The set up is basic with a back-drop, stool, tripod with flash, exposure set and not moved from (kind of reminds me of the mall santa/Easter bunny pictures). Two or three shots per student. A few week later they come back with sample prints to show / sell parents.

Speaking with the owner, who I know and knows I have a DSLR with a few lenses, she offered for me to take the shots and sell to the parents.

As a parent who pays a lot of money (from a parents perspective) for these photos, I really began to think about it. Now I have never done anything like this and am only an amateur, but think I can set up the camera at the right exposure and not move from it.

I am sure I am over simplifying it but can someone tell me by how much. Thank you.

[dreamcatcher23]

The technical side of doing things on the day is pretty easy. To be honest I'd be suprised if you had to set the exposure at all - it's probably all standardized and written in a manual, just saying 250,f/8, light a at 1/2 power, light b at 3/4 power, light a x feet from background etc. etc.

Your posing skills and people management skills however need to be really good.

However, if you're talking about taking business from her then you're into a whole different ballgame than a camera operator and there are LOT of complexities that go along with running a business as I'm sure you're aware.

[bwolford]

It's easier than I expected in some ways and harder in others. An on camera flash will not work well and neither will cheap continuous power crapola off ebay.

When I first did this, I made sure I priced this at enough to cover REAL studio lights and backdrop with stand and DID NOT undercut the previous photog. In fact some of my prices were higher and gladly paid because my pictures didn't look like snapshots done before.

Get your equipment, flashes (2 minimum), and backdrop together and practice with friends and family several times.

Once you have the camera exposure, lights set up, you can put them on a stool or stand on tape in the same place every time and do a child every 3-5 minutes, if they cooperate. Maybe faster. I've shot as many as 45 kids an hour.

Your REAL problem comes at proofing and delivery time. If you don't have that workflow worked out you will take a long time to get the images in parent's hands. Not a good thing.

Good luck.

P.S. Let me reemphasize. DO NOT LOW BALL YOUR PRICE JUST BECAUSE THIS IS YOUR FIRST TIME. If you take good pictures, charge good prices. You will screw yourself out of future profit if low ball now.

[dreamcatcher23]

DO NOT LOW BALL YOUR PRICE JUST BECAUSE THIS IS YOUR FIRST TIME. If you take good pictures, charge good prices. You will screw yourself out of future profit if low ball now.

What he said.

[asysin2leads]

Yeah, what Brice said. Once you have it setup, don't deviate from it. You'll be surprised how easy it actually is. The hardest part will be getting the kids to sit still and not make silly faces. Some may argue this point, but don't let the parents just view an online gallery and order prints from the comfort of their recliner. They just won't get around to it. My other advice would be to pre-sale the photos/packages. You will find that some parents will nit-pick the crap out of the picture. That's just they way they are and will never be happy. Unless the image is just so bad that a re-shoot is necessary, don't re-shoot just because the parents don't like the fact that the kids hair is sticking up. Good luck with the project.

[eigga]

Some may argue this point, but don't let the parents just view an online gallery and order prints from the comfort of their recliner. They just won't get around to it.

I will argue that point :) My business is 100% online. Never taken a pre-order and I do fine. Bottom line is do what works for you.

Taking the pictures will be the easy part. As mentioned the editing workflow and ORGANIZATION will be the hard part. Also marketing and creating perceived value is a challenge. Best of luck!

[dreamcatcher23]

I've just re-read the OP's post and there's still somethging that isn't clear. Are you planning on setting up in competition to this person, or are they offering you work and they already have the details worked out?

[OneDay]

No deal worked out. The owner saw me with my camera taking pictures of my daughter. She asked if I could take portrait pictures like they do for the kids. I said I never did. She said something like "if you're ever interested, let me know." That's where it was left.

[Tigershark]

As someone who is experienced with shooting preschools you better be great with kids and have a ton of patience. I usually take a softbox and another light, a backdrop etc, if you are shooting the actual graduation be prepared to have Mom,Dad, grandpa etc looking over you shoulder fixing hairetc, the school shoots are easier than the graduations they can be very stressful. Make sure you have someone working your booth selling the packages and be organized because the younger kids 2,3-4 can sometimes take longer than you would ever anticipate so be very organized, if you are shooting classes, add in extra time than say you would if you shot a middle school, also bring some stuffed animals and an assistant to help use the props to generate those smiles, it took me a while too learn that but it definately helps, if you try and do t all by yourself you better be very creative and be prepared to deal with the kids that cry, this is where an assistant comes in big time, the group shots are always fun, just remember to always make it fun no matter how stressful it becomes you always need to keep a smile on your face, good luck

[bwolford]

School shoots = presales. Even if you give them an option to pick and order online, get their money up front. I've done either method and presales always generates more revenue. Period. Some will swear by online sales only and it does work, but you WILL miss some customers and any miss is a bad miss.

No parents in the shoot! Do not let mom or dad be there when you take the pictures. Teacher only. She/he (teacher) can help you wrangle the kids. Make sure you have that agreed to with the preschool. Wear colorful clothes, goofy hat, goofy shirt, whatever. If you have tattos, piercings, etc be prepared to cover or remove them They scare the tots.

[OneDay]

No parents are there when the shots are done, just the kids and teachers. The way the current photag does it is he sets up a date when he will be in again and parents swarm around him that day with cash, check, credit card. He has packages pre set up. If you buy you get them, if not, I guess he throws away. Free mouse pad last time of picture with his choice of pic.

How do you print? Do you go to something like mpix.com, local print or print at home?

Just found the package that we did last time was done through Nationwide Studio, or a division of theirs - Teddy Bear Portraits.

[bwolford]

I would never pre print the images without pre order. I'd much rather provide a refund or retake the photo than print many photos I',m just going to throw away.

Don't just follow the model of the last guy. Just because they did it, doesn't make it right. They charge such high prices because they expect to throw away 40-60% of what they print.

No parents are there when the shots are done, just the kids and teachers. The way the current photag does it is he sets up a date when he will be in again and parents swarm around him that day with cash, check, credit card. He has packages pre set up. If you buy you get them, if not, I guess he throws away. Free mouse pad last time of picture with his choice of pic.

How do you print? Do you go to something like mpix.com, local print or print at home?

Just found the package that we did last time was done through Nationwide Studio, or a division of theirs - Teddy Bear Portraits.

[asysin2leads]

No parents are there when the shots are done, just the kids and teachers. The way the current photag does it is he sets up a date when he will be in again and parents swarm around him that day with cash, check, credit card. He has packages pre set up. If you buy you get them, if not, I guess he throws away. Free mouse pad last time of picture with his choice of pic.

How do you print? Do you go to something like mpix.com, local print or print at home?

Just found the package that we did last time was done through Nationwide Studio, or a division of theirs - Teddy Bear Portraits.

I would never pre print the images without pre order. I'd much rather provide a refund or retake the photo than print many photos I',m just going to throw away.

Don't just follow the model of the last guy. Just because they did it, doesn't make it right. They charge such high prices because they expect to throw away 40-60% of what they print.

I know the current photog does it that way, but who's to say it's the right way. If you get only 1 more PAYING customer from the pre-sales, then I would think it would be worth it. There is no way to track the number of potential customers via online ordering. Parents will either buy or they won't. Simple as that. Why print 100 pictures that will never be purchased? That's just bad business, IMHO. Unless of course you have unlimited budget for printing/processing.

[Nightstalker]

I know the current photog does it that way, but who's to say it's the right way. If you get only 1 more PAYING customer from the pre-sales, then I would think it would be worth it. There is no way to track the number of potential customers via online ordering. Parents will either buy or they won't. Simple as that. Why print 100 pictures that will never be purchased? That's just bad business, IMHO. Unless of course you have unlimited budget for printing/processing.


I haven't done this yet but having a kid have been on the recieving end.

The way it is usually worked in my area is that the kids have the photos taken and about a week later the pictures are handed out at school for the kids to bring home with them.

Included is usually the minimum printed package - usually 1 full class shot, a 5x7 and a couple of wallet pics - plus an order form for additional prints. If you want to buy you send in your money plus any additional orders - if you don't want the pictures you send them back to the school.

This sounds like a risky deal for the tog but in my experience I don't think many get returned. Why - psychology.

The week before little Jonny came home saying that he had his picture taken - mum and nan get excited and can't wait to see them (my mum still has all my old school photos stacked in a frame and I'm now 41!!!) and send copies to all the family showing little Johnny off. How grown up does he look- blah, blah etc ...

Now I can take better pictures and usualy want to send them back but will they let me - will they hell. My mum usually ends up paying for her grandsons pictures cause she wants them for some reason.

I don't think that we are unusual.

If total returns reach 10% I'd be amazed.

As for the idea of pre-sales - there is no way I personally would pay in advance.

[eigga]

School shoots = presales. Even if you give them an option to pick and order online, get their money up front. I've done either method and presales always generates more revenue. Period. Some will swear by online sales only and it does work, but you WILL miss some customers and any miss is a bad miss.

To each his own...online sales requires the correct mareting. My last dance portraits for example are doing very well. 250 girls - average order $68 and already 77% purchasing with two days remaining. On top of that I keep the client and continue to add more becuase most people hate spending money before they see the product.

Pre- Order is a tried and true way to do business. It works bottom line. What I have decided is that mixing the two is hard!

[asysin2leads]

I haven't done this yet but having a kid have been on the recieving end.

The way it is usually worked in my area is that the kids have the photos taken and about a week later the pictures are handed out at school for the kids to bring home with them.

Included is usually the minimum printed package - usually 1 full class shot, a 5x7 and a couple of wallet pics - plus an order form for additional prints. If you want to buy you send in your money plus any additional orders - if you don't want the pictures you send them back to the school.

This sounds like a risky deal for the tog but in my experience I don't think many get returned. Why - psychology.

The week before little Jonny came home saying that he had his picture taken - mum and nan get excited and can't wait to see them (my mum still has all my old school photos stacked in a frame and I'm now 41!!!) and send copies to all the family showing little Johnny off. How grown up does he look- blah, blah etc ...

Now I can take better pictures and usualy want to send them back but will they let me - will they hell. My mum usually ends up paying for her grandsons pictures cause she wants them for some reason.

I don't think that we are unusual.

If total returns reach 10% I'd be amazed.

As for the idea of pre-sales - there is no way I personally would pay in advance.

We have 3 in school (2 in elementary and 1 in pre-school). The national company who comes in and takes really crappy pictures (Lifetouch, btw) has the look before you buy philosophy. They do that because they have the market locked in for school portraits. The number who buy pictures (and a lot of them) far outnumber those who don't buy anything. That's why I've chosen to take my own kids' schools pictures. Besides, with 5 eventually in school, we'll go broke buying through the school. It's gotten to the point that I have a few other parents who have me take their kids' school pictures that get printed.

I submitted a bid to a local pre-school/elementary (church run) and they said that they were forbidden to accept other bids under their current "contract." I don't understand how the company can forbid them from accepting other bids. That's ok, I play golf 2 of the 3 school board members. Ok, ok, you busted me. I don't play golf with them. I hit a small white ball as hard as I can and try to find it in the woods.....with 2 of the 3 board members.;)

[Tigershark]

Mine are always prepaid and I do pretty well, I think the last school I shot had 90% participation on preorders and I have a pro lab do all my printing. MPIX is a little high for me

[eigga]

My experience is the pre order route will have a slightly higher participation rate...but that online sales have a higher total per sale if you present choices and a good product.

[asysin2leads]

My experience is the pre order route will have a slightly higher participation rate...but that online sales have a higher total per sale if you present choices and a good product.

I think that anytime you have a good product, sales will be higher.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of pre-sale versus online sales percentages. Not necessarily of yours, just in general.

[Gatorboy]

Included is usually the minimum printed package - usually 1 full class shot, a 5x7 and a couple of wallet pics - plus an order form for additional prints. If you want to buy you send in your money plus any additional orders - if you don't want the pictures you send them back to the school.

This is a great way to do it, however, what if a parent doesn't send the pictures back and doesn't pay? Seems like this could be a not-so-fun activity trying to call and track down those photos (or payment).

[dreamcatcher23]

That's a little over $13,000 then??

To each his own...online sales requires the correct mareting. My last dance portraits for example are doing very well. 250 girls - average order $68 and already 77% purchasing with two days remaining. On top of that I keep the client and continue to add more becuase most people hate spending money before they see the product.

Pre- Order is a tried and true way to do business. It works bottom line. What I have decided is that mixing the two is hard!

[bwolford]

I know the current photog does it that way, but who's to say it's the right way. If you get only 1 more PAYING customer from the pre-sales, then I would think it would be worth it. There is no way to track the number of potential customers via online ordering. Parents will either buy or they won't. Simple as that. Why print 100 pictures that will never be purchased? That's just bad business, IMHO. Unless of course you have unlimited budget for printing/processing.

Agreed. Pre-order is the way.

To each his own...online sales requires the correct mareting. My last dance portraits for example are doing very well. 250 girls - average order $68 and already 77% purchasing with two days remaining. On top of that I keep the client and continue to add more becuase most people hate spending money before they see the product.

Pre- Order is a tried and true way to do business. It works bottom line. What I have decided is that mixing the two is hard!

Not quite sure what you are saying Eigga. Online or pre-order?

My experience is the pre order route will have a slightly higher participation rate...but that online sales have a higher total per sale if you present choices and a good product.

I'll take volume over higher price. Why do you think Lifetouch is in the business? They've locked it up for a reason. Hire photogs shooting a formula for low dollar amount.

That's a little over $13,000 then??

Check your math.

[bwolford]

If total returns reach 10% I'd be amazed.

As for the idea of pre-sales - there is no way I personally would pay in advance.

I'd be interested in someone working for Lifetouch or mass marketer chiming in. I'd be surprised if 90% keeper/pay rate is true. If it is I'll change my business model.

Pre-sales has always exceeded the shoot and order on-line route for me.

I did an experiment delivering buttons for every athlete and had an agreement with the owner to display them where the parents drop off and pick up little Susie/Johnny. My thought was that parents would see their kid displayed and wouldn't want their kid's picture being the last one displayed at the end of the day. Sold about 1/2. The rest hung there for 2 weeks before we took them down. End result, my print costs were twice as high... THAT seems like a bad business model to me.

[eigga]

All I am saying I do very well with online sales ESPECIALLY in markets with high SES. I can offer 5-10 poses for each child and many parents want them all once they see them. How many $100 plus orders do pre sales generate??

I would much rather make larger sales over high volume...then my cost are less and my profits higher....thats my way and it DOES work for ME. I agree that Lifetouch does well with volume...but Im not sure anyone here has that kind of vloume and low cost associated with that. I doubt the regular person's cost is anywhere near what Lifetouch can offer. Plus, i would never want to be like Lifetouch, Im not a mass market cookie cutter person.

Pre sales works also. Each person has to decide what they want to do for themselves and have a plan and adjust...thats business. I just hate the blanket statment that pre slaes will always do better than online and that you "lose" sales otherwise.

Not quite sure what you are saying Eigga. Online or pre-order?

Im saying dont discount either method. Each business is different.

Check your math.

Are you asking me to check my math?

[Nightstalker]

This is a great way to do it, however, what if a parent doesn't send the pictures back and doesn't pay? Seems like this could be a not-so-fun activity trying to call and track down those photos (or payment).


Yeah, but how many parents would want to put their son/daughter in the position of stealing - after all the kids take the photos from the school and they hand over the money to the school....

Imagine the scenario when the teacher goes around the class asking for money or return and your child has to say - "Sorry miss, my mum/dad are thieves and won't pay or return the photos."

[OneDay]

Some more questions. Has anyone run into a school wanting a "cut"? Again, not that I'm in that situation, but just curious.

Also, how much post processing do you do for school / dance portraits?

Thanks.

[dreamcatcher23]

cuts - yes, sometimes as much as 25%. Post processing - batch colour / exposure corretctions only, no local adjustments

[bwolford]

Are you asking me to check my math?

No, dreamcatcher.

[dreamcatcher23]

me? 250*$68*0.77= $13,090. what's to check?

[eigga]

The math is correct...ended up grossing over 15000. However my last Soccer League did only 4,000 in sales online without just a few less kids...different market and older kids. That league would do better with pre-sales so I will not be covering it anymore.

And yes a percentage back is part of my contract...but I expect things for that percentage especially email (E-Blast) one before the event, one after the pictures are online and one 3 days before closing. Typically its 10%. You see when you give the school/league/event a percentage they have a vested interest in you doing well and are willing to help out so much more.

[Tingchaleun]

How does Jostens or LifeTouch keep organized? From what i remember in elementry school and high school they don't take down anybody's name or anything. What's the key to their workflow? How do they identify all those photographs and especially if they do preschoolers, they can't expect the preschooler to give them their name and address. How do they identify each photo with the individual?

[OneDay]

I don't know how to do the proper cut and paste, so I'll do regular style and change the font:

How does Jostens or LifeTouch keep organized? From what i remember in elementry school and high school they don't take down anybody's name or anything. What's the key to their workflow? How do they identify all those photographs and especially if they do preschoolers, they can't expect the preschooler to give them their name and address. How do they identify each photo with the individual? -Tingchaleun

At my kids pre-school, you walk in when the pictures are ready and the teachers point to the area/group where your kids picture is. You find it and bring it up.

[Tingchaleun]

Re: OneDay,

That doesn't really explain my question. Let me clarify. During photo day, there are several photographers who photograph up to hundreds of students, if not over a thousand students. How would the photographer know and identify each student, especially if the student is very young.

From your explanation, i'm assuming you're implying that the photographer doesn't do any organizing. But when you are looking for your kids photo(s) in the area/group, how would the photographer know how many prints to print and for who?

I think this process is a lot more intricate and complicated than people think.

[OneDay]

I've seen the answer to your question somewhere on this forum. I will try to find and post it.

As far as my kids school, no organization. There is no pre-order. The photographer actually comes with certain packages (1 - 8 x 10, 1 sheet wallets, etc). You buy what you like and I guess he tosses the rest. If you want more, you can order.

[Tingchaleun]

that sounds rather wasteful if he jut tosses the unpurchased portions.

[Gatorboy]

that sounds rather wasteful if he jut tosses the unpurchased portions.

Maybe it's wasteful, but by doing it this way, they make more sales -- so waste is not an issue.

[Gatorboy]

That doesn't really explain my question. Let me clarify. During photo day, there are several photographers who photograph up to hundreds of students, if not over a thousand students. How would the photographer know and identify each student, especially if the student is very young.

I'm sure they photograph by CLASS. So, they know what class they are in. On the form, they write the image number (from their camera), and then they can easily put each student into the proper class.

[Tingchaleun]

ok, lets say i order by class. so i know where to deliver the photographs. now a week later, a parent calls to order more. there's no way to know which student to develop more photos of without asking the embarrassing question: "what does your kid look like?" haha. Surely, the big companies such as Jostens or Lifetouch don't need to do that. I'm trying to find out how they do it.

[Gatorboy]

ok, lets say i order by class. so i know where to deliver the photographs. now a week later, a parent calls to order more. there's no way to know which student to develop more photos of without asking the embarrassing question: "what does your kid look like?" haha. Surely, the big companies such as Jostens or Lifetouch don't need to do that. I'm trying to find out how they do it.

When they "package" the prints, they put their own Code/Account number on the label. All they have to do is say, "What's your account number, ma'am?"

[OneDay]

I would say it's wasteful too; however, they get some (most it seems) silly families (like mine) to actually pay close to $100 for some package.

At least I get a free mouse pad with a picture of their choice on it.:confused:

[jra]

ok, lets say i order by class. so i know where to deliver the photographs. now a week later, a parent calls to order more. there's no way to know which student to develop more photos of without asking the embarrassing question: "what does your kid look like?" haha. Surely, the big companies such as Jostens or Lifetouch don't need to do that. I'm trying to find out how they do it.

I've photographed sport leagues and the way I do it is...The student hands me their order form with check or cash enclosed, I jot down the file number from the camera on the order form. Now I know which student goes with what photos. If someone calls to order additional photos, I simply ask their name, look up the order form and can easily find the photos associated with that person. It's really pretty simple.

[Tingchaleun]

so you make them fill out a form before you photograph them. and while you photograph or after you photograph you write down the file number on that form. Am i right? Do you ever collect other info to ensure that only parents or rightful guardians can purchase those photos? (assuming they are underaged). You wouldn't want weirdos buying photos of random children, right?

[NickJushchyshyn]

For the preschools my kids have gone to, Lifetouch would shoot without an order forms, several poses/backgrounds per child, plus a class photo.
A standard packet of photo prints would be delivered to the school, and parents sign a form saying they picked up the package. Parents then return the packet with unwanted photos, plus a check for the photos the kept.

No worries about matching up a child with an order, of course, but it sure looked pretty wasteful to me. At the volumes they work at, I imagine that lab and even photographer costs are very very low compared to most sole-proprietor-style operations ... they seem to be able to make a steady profit based on expected percentage of returns and even no-pays in today's home scanner/inkjet photo printer era.

[SoccerRef]

ok, lets say i order by class. so i know where to deliver the photographs. now a week later, a parent calls to order more. there's no way to know which student to develop more photos of without asking the embarrassing question: "what does your kid look like?" haha. Surely, the big companies such as Jostens or Lifetouch don't need to do that. I'm trying to find out how they do it.

I have never done a pre-school or a school, but I did do a choral group once that had 5 choirs. They wanted each choir to have a group shot and individual shots of every chorister. The smallest choir was 11 kids, the largest was ~80, and there were 165+ total. Some kids were in more than one choir, so it could have gotten a little crazy, but this is what I did.

First I had two photogs, myself and another. We had three cameras, two for individual shots and one for group shots. I also had two assistants, who were there to keep things organized. The two assistants are the KEY to making the whole thing work. The kids lined up and the assistants called one child. Each photog had one assistant who had a sheet of paper that had three columns on it. The top of the sheet had the photog's name, then the three columns were Choir, #, and name. The assistant would get the child's name and the photog always gave the first photo number for each child.

We had one kid give us the wrong name, and one time the assistant wrote the same start number for two kids. 2 errors out of more than 165 kids was pretty good. I was happy.

When I do Sports with multiple photogs, I use the same method, only the photog is responsible for completing information on an envelope. I put a labled CF card in an envelope with the same label written on the envelope. The photog takes the CF card, writes their name on the envelope and heads out. They are responsible for writing the photo range and the subject of the photos in that range (1-149 = Blast (red) vs. United (blue) on field # 5 at 11 AM.) Then when they move to another field they record the same type of info for the next field they are on, etc.

The photog who does our school portraits has a very high tech set up. His camera is wirelessly connected to a Mac where his assistant is constantly chimping his shots for him and after a kid's photos are taken, the kid stops by the Mac and gives his name phone number, etc. and those photos are all tagged right there and then!

[jra]

so you make them fill out a form before you photograph them. and while you photograph or after you photograph you write down the file number on that form. Am i right? Do you ever collect other info to ensure that only parents or rightful guardians can purchase those photos? (assuming they are underaged). You wouldn't want weirdos buying photos of random children, right?

That's how I do it. As far as making sure only authorized persons purchase additional photos, my order form contains an area for the parents name, address and phone number. I have additional orders shipped right to the parents home. If there were ever a question, I wouldn't hesitate to give the parents a quick call to confirm things.

[Tingchaleun]

QUOTE: "The photog who does our school portraits has a very high tech set up. His camera is wirelessly connected to a Mac where his assistant is constantly chimping his shots for him and after a kid's photos are taken, the kid stops by the Mac and gives his name phone number, etc. and those photos are all tagged right there and then!"

i was considering my set-up this way, but then i thought whether this was legal or not according to Canadian privacy policies. According to this privacy policy, clients have a right to know what you're doing with that information, and they must agree to your policies (therefore it is a legal contact), since legal minors can't engage in contracts, the information they are giving you are void and you can't use it for commercial purposes. I think that photographer could be sued. Unless it is argued that there is an implied consent because its facilitated through the school. Maybe i'm making this too complicated.

[Tingchaleun]

these replies are much appreciated by the way. Im going to start approaching schools and see if i can take a chop at Jostens or Lifetouch.

[dreamcatcher23]

I don't know whether it's interesting or sad that people want to "take a chop" at the big companies that clearly have things nailed and are able to provide a consistent service - it seems that whenever anyone is actually sucessful at bringing things together everyone else starts wanting to tear them down!

[SoccerRef]

i was considering my set-up this way, but then i thought whether this was legal or not according to Canadian privacy policies. According to this privacy policy, clients have a right to know what you're doing with that information, and they must agree to your policies (therefore it is a legal contact), since legal minors can't engage in contracts, the information they are giving you are void and you can't use it for commercial purposes. I think that photographer could be sued. Unless it is argued that there is an implied consent because its facilitated through the school. Maybe i'm making this too complicated.

I looked at the order form last night from our most recent photo purchase, and asked my wife what the process is (she is the PTA representative that organizes photo days at our kid's school). The envelope has three boxes along the long side of the envelope, Class, Child's Name, and Phone Number. Below the phone number it says, "Used as an ID number to insure you get your child's photos..."

On the child's way in to see the photog there is a helper who takes the pre-order envelope from the child confirms the information and gives the photog any information he may need that differs from the normal shoot. (i.e. sibling shots, friend shots, etc.) Both assistants have laptops and both are constantly entering information, one about the orders, the other about the photos. My wife told me that the second assistant asks the child's name, but she is really just confirming what the first assistant entered, because all she does is pull up the information that the first one entered. She is also apparently making some quick edits to the photos. She selects the "Best", and the "Second Best" and then actually crops them to the sizes ordered on the form. (So, I guess he actually has a small network set up.)

I guess he figures even Kindergartners know their own name and phone number, and he uses that information to match up the photos to the actual orders when they get back to the studio. I don't think there are any privacy issues since the parents are actually giving the information themselves when they complete the order form.

[PhotoLynx]

There are several methods for keeping track of who you have photographed:

If possible, try to get data for the pre-schoolers/students/players in advance. Create labels or index cards with their names on it, using the data provided to you by the school/league. You can do this pretty easily using MS Word. Have a teacher or assistant pass out the index cards to the subjects just prior to photography.

As the subjects come up to the camera, number the index card in the order you are photographing the subjects. Usually the photographer can do this. Occasionally write down a description of each student for identifiaction later. Use a dry erase board and photograph it between classes/teams or every 50 subjects. You can use the slate to get you back on track, if the cards and images don't match up.

Another method is through software. There is software available that will print out the camera cards with a barcode. The camera is connected to a computer (called tethering). As the subject approaches the camera, the photographer reads the barcode using an inexpensive (under $50.00) barcode scanner. The images are brought into the software and is matched up to the subjects information on the fly. If it is pre-pay, package information can be input at the time of photography. (See www.PhotoLynx.com). Some labs also provide software to do this for you as a 'hook' to keep you loyal to their lab and keep the work organized for them. Google 'American Color Imaging', 'Millers', or 'H&H Color Labs'. These amongst many who offer such software.

Yet another way is with no data. This would only be used if no product is being produced for the school, such as ID cards or yearbook images. Use a dry erase board between classes. On the board write the name of the class. Make proofs or pre-printed packages and make sure that the lab keeps them in order. Use the slates to separate them by class. Be sure to enclose a money envelope for orders.

Feel free to email me with any other questions!

[OneDay]

I don't know whether it's interesting or sad that people want to "take a chop" at the big companies that clearly have things nailed and are able to provide a consistent service - it seems that whenever anyone is actually sucessful at bringing things together everyone else starts wanting to tear them down!

I think competition is a good thing. In my kid's pre-school they currently use a big company. Not sure how it goes when the pictures are being taken, but when you try to order, they stink. no help whatsoever other then taking the cash. The pictures themselves are nothing special, but I can't get my wife to understand that they're not worth it and we get a package every year.

Now if someone local (maybe me OneDay...) comes in and provides better service, better packages, etc., it's competition. Use whatever words you will i.e. taking a chop, but it's just competition. I would honestly love to take a chop at them (hence the start of this thread...).

Btw - Thank you from me as well for all the responses. This is truly eye opening!

[dreamcatcher23]

I think competition is a good thing. In my kid's pre-school they currently use a big company. Not sure how it goes when the pictures are being taken, but when you try to order, they stink. no help whatsoever other then taking the cash. The pictures themselves are nothing special, but I can't get my wife to understand that they're not worth it and we get a package every year.

Now if someone local (maybe me OneDay...) comes in and provides better service, better packages, etc., it's competition. Use whatever words you will i.e. taking a chop, but it's just competition. I would honestly love to take a chop at them (hence the start of this thread...).

I agree that competition is a good thing - I guess I have two issues really; the first is that it seems once the successful companies get successful they lose something, whether it be the personal touch or the quality, and that's their weakness and where newer, smaller outfits might be able to make inroads. I think it's sad for those companies that they took their eye off the ball. The second issue is that people on here bitch about customers abusing their service and treating them like crap etc. and competition in general, yet the same groups think it's okay to attack companies that *have* made it in such an offhand manner, rather than thinking "wow, they're obviously doing something right. I should respect that, learn from that, but learn from their mistakes and try to take some of their market share by combining their best bits and filling in the gaps".

There was another thread about JC Penny or some store photographers and people finally agreed that you can't compete with them because of the volume of work they do they cam charge low prices and the service/image quality is "good enough". That's the thing with this kind of work, it really is generally skillless production-line volume work (in terms of photography, not so much the business/admin side of things!) that is best suited to large companies that can hire lots of low paid staff. Most customers will never know or care that for a few dollars more they could have better photos and for the most part it really isn't worth trying to educate them.

I think most photographers who get the contracts will soon be bored of the work anyway.

[SoccerRef]

dreamcatcher23... You make some good points, especially your last one... but some independent guys consciously make the decision to take the "boring" work because it helps pay the bills and it allows them the freedom to explore the "much less boring work".

[dreamcatcher23]

some independent guys consciously make the decision to take the "boring" work because it helps pay the bills and it allows them the freedom to explore the "much less boring work".

Definitley, I wholeheartedly agree on that point - I feel completely the same way myself.

I just find it amusing when people (NOT anyone specific, just the photography...and many other... communities in general) whine about competition and about how people don't respect them / take advantage of them / how they're soooo much better than the big businesses on one side and weekend warriors on the other... and then spectacularly fail to realise WHY these established companies have been able to be successful and how they could learn from that rather than just bash them.