rays vs jays...filtered vs un filtered

[3oh6]

i just posted this over at FM but figure since some dont venture over there...i took the train up to toronto to take in the ball game yesterday afternoon. another great game with a jays win and i had the pleasure of sitting beside an older guy who came to the game with his son and daughter in-law. we had a good time talkin and i almost got the old timer a ball to boot...close anyway. instead of posting shots like normal i am gonna give you filtered and un-filtered as i had to shoot at ISO3200 to get 1/1000 at f/4. guess when i shoot there as a pro one day i will need a 400 f/2.8 because a 300 f/2.8 and 1.4x wont cut it. any thoughts either way...filtered vs un filtered?

1. un filtered
http://3oh6.com/forum_posted/ball/rays_jays-2.jpg

1. filtered
http://3oh6.com/forum_posted/ball/rays_jays-2f.jpg

2. un filtered
http://3oh6.com/forum_posted/ball/rays_jays-3.jpg

2. filtered
http://3oh6.com/forum_posted/ball/rays_jays-3f.jpg

3. un filtered
http://3oh6.com/forum_posted/ball/rays_jays-4.jpg

3. filtered
http://3oh6.com/forum_posted/ball/rays_jays-4f.jpg

and this one i had to throw in just because the kid is straight crazy and did not move the entire time. all the other kids were dancing and singing, i mean, they are on the field. not little serial killer in training over here...un filtered BTW
http://3oh6.com/forum_posted/ball/rays_jays-1.jpg

[Dandaman_24]

What do you mean by filtered / un filtered ?

Is it that you have applied noise reduction to the filtered and some USM

[3oh6]

sorry, yes, by filtered vs un filtered i mean the noise reduction that has gone into the filtered ones. is there one of which you prefer to see? you know instead of just sayin nice pics i figure see if there is a discussion to be had on a common subject. noise removal i normally dont use unless i have to jump into ISO3200 and it has been a while that i have had to do that to get the shutters i need. silly domes though ;)

[kawter2]

I prefer the unfiltered


the filtered ones have a TAD tad tad bit of a cartoney look the 'em Bot over all they look great, and probably wouldn't have a problem at all with them if i hadn't seen the unfiltered right next to them

[Rob612]

I personally preffer the filtered but maybe you could have applied a little less of de-noise. Still, I di like the filtered version. I hate noise :D

[madplower4]

Having very limited knowledge of filtering, all I can comment on is my preference. I noticed the difference mostly in pic#2, and based on that shot I definitely prefer the filtered. Now if I only knew how to do it!!

[prime80]

I don't notice much difference in the 2nd & 3rd groups of pics. There's a difference, but it's minor. However, in the first group, the filtering definitely pays off IMO. The pitcher seems to almost jump out of the screen in the filtered pic, while on the unfiltered one, he blends in with the background more.

[3oh6]

interesting comments and concerns when it comes to noise in the image. i personally dont have an issue with noise. when the shots go to print you can barely see the noise at all at 5x7 or smaller but you cannot enlarge any. i understand why the noise is necessary and that is to keep the shutters high enough to freeze the action, therefore i dont really see noise when its there as negative...however i do fully understand why some cannot stand noise.

keep the comments comming as we have a few different views here going both ways.

[SonicZoom]

filtered definatly

[jeffbmw]

What tool did you use to do the noise reduction. I prefer the filtered and I think you did a good job with reduction.


Half of my company was there, but I didn't read my email and check for tickets lol.

[3oh6]

i use noiseware pro (http://www.imagenomic.com/index.asp) for my noise reduction. i have a custom profile setup for web and then a seperate one for print, i have been wanting to do a comparison post for a while now to see if you all thought the web setup was too much. i like where i have it now, but i just dont like what noise reduction (any type or amount for that matter) does to the OOF background.

[IanBMW]

Wow 3200 unfiltered looks pretty sweet, my Dreb would have been gagging unfiltered at that speed. But ya I like the filtered look better.

[PaCiFiSt]

I like the filtered one more - they are some good shots btw

[tuggnet]

I like the filtered also. I use noiseware pro on my diving pics. It works very well.

[Littlenose]

I like the filtered pics better i think... but wow, what shots! numbers 1 and 3 are great !

[drisley]

Curious, what camera are you using?
I'm guessing it's the 20D because where there is noise, its usually only noticable on sold areas, and there is a slight banding to it.
That is my only complaint about ISO3200 on the 20D. If it was more random, it would be far less noticable on solid areas.
I find Noise Ninja to be the best NR software by far. It is far superior to Neatimage IMHO, and many others. I read a very thorough review/test of virtually all the NR programs out there, and Ninja won hands down. One thing I hate about Neatimage, and other NR programs is the "blotched/mottled noise pattern" it can leave behind. It's like large noise blocks. I forgot how bad it was until I tried using it again a few weeks ago. Ninja doesn't do this.
I usually dial down the filtering to about 50% of normal. I think that half way between your unfiltered and filtered would be to my liking.
Btw, those are sweet pictures! Definatley close to pro quality.

EDIT: I found the link... http://www.michaelalmond.com/Articles/noise10.htm
It uses older versions of the software though. I find the latest versions of Noise Ninja much improved too.

[3oh6]

wow, talk about a blast from the past. thanx for the comments...the noise is amazingly low with the 20D yes, but the key is proper exposure when you are dealing with high iso as all of us indoor warriors know. i struggled on this day but the results are still pretty good due to the cameras ability.

seeing this again has reminded me that i need to get back up to the city for a game...thanx for the comments and bump for that dris. i am thinking i will be using noise ninja this fall for my printing workflow because i really like the results i got with it last year but was too rushed to chang my workflow before the season started so i left it alone until recently.

[drisley]

3oh6,
I must admit, it does look like noiseware pro did a very good job. I think if you reduced the amount of filtering, or maybe combined it with an edge mask, you could get tremendous results.
The nice thing about the 20D is that you only really have to worry about noise reduction at ISO3200, or underexposed ISO1600 pictures. I remember constantly espousing the virtues of "exposing to the right" when I had the 300D. Now I find the 20D much more forgiving in this respect. Even if I underexpose ISO1600 by 1 stop, the results are still quite good.
Noise Ninja now comes in a bundle which includes the regular stand-alone program (great for batch processing), and now the new Photoshop plugin! The plugin is really a nice addition to the PS workflow.

[KennyG]

The filtered images take on a plastic look. That's fine if you are photographing inanimate objects, but not people. Most publications hate anyone submitting noise filtered images as it takes out detail, and that is obvious in your samples, even at the reduced size.

Filtering should really only be used when the noise is in the extreme and you are trying to 'rescue' and image. Otherwise, leave them unfiltered.

[HJMinard]

Always like seeing your baseball stuff, Jody.
#3 is outstanding!
The filter ones look better, IMO.

[drisley]

BTW, they don't mind you bringing in a "pro" lens like that?

[3oh6]

i agree ken, i am not sure what it is but i just hate filtered photos, no matter how much i 'dial it down' i still see what is down and would prefer to see noise instead. i printed some 8x10s and for each i did one filtered, one not. when shown to the parents and kids playing...they all picked the filtered ones...hands down. even though once printed you can barely even see the noise at ISO1600. that said the plasticy feeling of the filtering also didn't seem to be as noticable in print, but i knew what was done to it ;)

jay - hopefully i can get out from behind my mountain of a network i am setting up here and get out to shoot some more baseball to show off...glad you like the work i put up here, makes it all worth it to know at least 1 person will enjoy the shots.

oh and no Dris, MLB seems to be pretty relax about 'pro' looking lens. every park is slightly different, but they basically just have a bag size restriction and dont allow viedo cameras in most. if the lens you are bringing in is too big in its bag though to meet restrictions, i would imagine you could walk right in with a 400 2.8 hangin off your neck...absolutely no mono/tri pods though and you cannot interfere with anyone else watching the game, this they are tight about. i have been to toronto, and detroit a few times each thus far this year without issue. i plan on grabbing a game in cincinatti, chicago (both), kansas coty, minnesota, and milwakee this year before the season is over and dont expect a single problem with the 300 f/4 at any. all their websites state almost identicle rules.

[PhotosGuy]

Filtered for me, but less of it. Maybe keep the effect on the background instead of the players?
"the kid is straight crazy and did not move the entire time.": White guys can't dance? LOL!

[drisley]

3oh6,
Ok that is good to hear. I've read some stories about people not being allowed into ballparks with even their DRebels because they were "pro" equipment.
I thought initially that your pictures were taken with the 300/2.8, but now I see that you used a 300/4. Very impressive! Is that the IS version?
BTW, it's interesting that you mentioned that video cameras are not allowed. My friend just returned from NY City, and he said it's almost impossible to use a video camera anywhere in that city nowadays. I surely hope that severe loss of freedom doesn't eventually work it's way over to still cameras. He was so glad to get out of the US because of the overwhelming feeling of being in an old communist country!

[schmoelzel]

WOW!! Nice shots with and without the noise reduction!! Love the sharpness and the colour......