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nazpicman
11th of June 2009 (Thu), 19:27
If a person makes a few dollars on the side doing photo jobs, does that make him/her a "professional photographer" OR is a "P.P." one who gets ALL of his income from taking pictures?

l would like to start earning a little income from taking pictures and have been offered to be paid in the past, but would like to know where the line is and when the term "professional" can be used.

nphsbuckeye
11th of June 2009 (Thu), 19:51
Ultimately, it's self-defined.

CPS states one needs greater than or equal to 51% of annual income from photography.

However, I define a pro as someone who makes his/her livelihood from photography and not the weekend warrior type. Although you don't have to spend 100% effort to be a photographer, I don't believe you're a pro because it's more of a paying hobby, not a paying career.

Karl Johnston
11th of June 2009 (Thu), 21:55
I think you have the right to call yourself a professional when other people refer to you as a professional photographer based on the work you do. I was catching a taxi in Edmonton, Alta, and the cab driver asked what I did. Just so happens he's seen my auroras on www.spaceweather.com :lol: so when I said I was one of the pro photographers from the NWT he goes: "Karl Johnston?"

I think when people you don't know call you a pro - you have the right to own the title.

I also agree with CPS' definition, and at the same time I agree that a pro is someone that just swells with a wealth of information on photography.

nphsbuckeye
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 01:43
I think you have the right to call yourself a professional when other people refer to you as a professional photographer based on the work you do. I was catching a taxi in Edmonton, Alta, and the cab driver asked what I did. Just so happens he's seen my auroras on www.spaceweather.com (http://www.spaceweather.com) :lol: so when I said I was one of the pro photographers from the NWT he goes: "Karl Johnston?"

I think when people you don't know call you a pro - you have the right to own the title.

I also agree with CPS' definition, and at the same time I agree that a pro is someone that just swells with a wealth of information on photography.
Like I said, it's self-defining. And technically, you called yourself a pro before the driver, so it's not exactly like he instigated that subject of the conversation.

Karl Johnston
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 02:09
Like I said, it's self-defining. And technically, you called yourself a pro before the driver, so it's not exactly like he instigated that subject of the conversation.
Not exactly, he recognized my name when I said I was a pro photographer..I hadn't told him my name prior to that. The fact that he could pull my name out of the hat like that is pretty cool :p

Stealthy Ninja
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 02:16
If you're paid for it.

That's what I think.

Doesn't mean a GOOD photographer though.

Karl Johnston
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 02:28
Of course!^

It's misleading aint it? There should be another term.

"Master photographer?" - wealth of knowledge/good phtog
"Pro photog"- professional making a living.

Kyle is raaddd
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 03:53
Not exactly, he recognized my name when I said I was a pro photographer..I hadn't told him my name prior to that. The fact that he could pull my name out of the hat like that is pretty cool :p

Pretty cool?
That's awesome!!

James Robert Gratiot
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 08:30
If you're paid for it.

That's what I think.

Doesn't mean a GOOD photographer though.

I think of it in terms of sports. There are plenty of "professional" baseball players... from those who make $20 million/year in the major leagues to those who will spend their whole lives struggling in the minor leagues.

Some of these baseball players are superstars... but a vast majority couldn't hit a 90-mile-per-hour breaking ball if their life depended on it.

Every profession has superstars and hacks... and most of us are somewhere in between.

nphsbuckeye
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 10:28
Not exactly, he recognized my name when I said I was a pro photographer..I hadn't told him my name prior to that. The fact that he could pull my name out of the hat like that is pretty cool :p
Cool yes, no doubt, but the way you worded it was that you said you were a pro first. There are many ways to become known in the photo world online. Perhaps he frequents flickr, hardly a pro website, then found that other site. Who knows.

photoguy6405
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 11:57
If you're paid for it.

That's what I think.

Doesn't mean a GOOD photographer though.
Yep. "Professional"... and "amateur", for that matter... are financial definitions. They apply to pretty much any endeavor where money can be involved. They imply nothing as to skill or ability.

Then again, I once referred to an acquaintance as a "professional a-hole"... he didn't get paid for it but he was so good at it he should have. :p

FlyingPhotog
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 12:00
Yep. "Professional"... and "amateur", for that matter... are financial definitions. They imply nothing as to skill or ability.

Or attitude...

I know pros who are jackasses and amateurs who should be pros.

photoguy6405
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 12:04
Or attitude...

I know pros who are jackasses and amateurs who should be pros.
No kidding. Some pros think it's ok to be a jackass because they're a pro.

Josh101
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 12:07
CPS states one needs greater than or equal to 51% of annual income from photography.

I agree with them on this one.

imahawki
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 13:00
Ultimately, it's self-defined.

CPS states one needs greater than or equal to 51% of annual income from photography.

However, I define a pro as someone who makes his/her livelihood from photography and not the weekend warrior type. Although you don't have to spend 100% effort to be a photographer, I don't believe you're a pro because it's more of a paying hobby, not a paying career.

I don't necessarily agree with that definition because it depends on your other sources of income and could excluded NOTED professionals if they derive income from non-photography related activities. By a similar definition, Tiger Woods would be a professional spokesperson, NOT a professional golfer. He derives far less than 51% of his income from playing golf. Similarly an unemployed person making a couple hundred dollars a month would be a pro but a person who makes a couple thousand dollars a month might not be a pro if they have a high paying day job.

nphsbuckeye
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 14:00
I don't necessarily agree with that definition because it depends on your other sources of income and could excluded NOTED professionals if they derive income from non-photography related activities. By a similar definition, Tiger Woods would be a professional spokesperson, NOT a professional golfer. He derives far less than 51% of his income from playing golf. Similarly an unemployed person making a couple hundred dollars a month would be a pro but a person who makes a couple thousand dollars a month might not be a pro if they have a high paying day job.
I agree. I didn't write an exhaustive list of what I think constitutes a pro photographer because I would included scenarios like the ones you just said.

In regard to Tiger, how many photographers are out there of the notoriety of Woods that the photographer could only live off endorsements? Probably none. But then again, boys and girls grow up idolizing their favorite celebrity/athlete, where very few know of any living photographers that make hundreds of millions advertising cars because that company will pay up. One last note on Tiger, if it wasn't for golf, would anyone know him? Golf made him famous and he's smartly milking that.

And yes, percentages can easily be skewed, there's no way around that. A good statistician can do anything with numbers, but the point of CPS's percent is that the person lives off photography - not someone that can own every lens and wants world class care for him/her camera gear. There may be other ways of determining a pro photographer, but that may be the most straight forward way.

For the man that won't be named but has a website proving he's a fool or an utter genius (you all know who I'm talking about): is he a pro because he has a photo website with very pedestrian photos? Or that he isn't a photo pro at all because he doesn't make money directly from photography, but rather half-baked, half-hearted commentary?

Like I said, it's ultimately self-defined.

wyofizz
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 14:06
I don't necessarily agree with that definition because it depends on your other sources of income and could excluded NOTED professionals if they derive income from non-photography related activities. Similarly an unemployed person making a couple hundred dollars a month would be a pro but a person who makes a couple thousand dollars a month might not be a pro if they have a high paying day job.

Good point. My day job pays very well, well over the recent income figures of photogs that were posted on POTN. I'm certainly not going to give up that income to satisfy the requirements of CPS :)
I have all the gear to satisfy their requirements but it would be virtually impossible to make 51% of my income from photography.
Is this class discrimination:razz:
Dave

tracknut
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 14:19
I was looking around the various CPS we sites, and all I could find was a definition of "full time" photographer as 51% of income ("* A full-time photographer is defined as someone who generates the majority of their income from photography and who operates through a registered business"), not a definition of "professional photographer".

Another way to deal with the Tiger Woods issue would be to distinguish between active income and passive income. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who have far more passive income than active, but in terms of what they do from day to day, they are photographers.

Dave

imahawki
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 14:58
Good point. My day job pays very well, well over the recent income figures of photogs that were posted on POTN. I'm certainly not going to give up that income to satisfy the requirements of CPS :)
I have all the gear to satisfy their requirements but it would be virtually impossible to make 51% of my income from photography.
Is this class discrimination:razz:
Dave
That was my thought too. If I kept my current income and made that again plus 1% doing photography... I'd be in hog heaven.

FlyingPhotog
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 15:01
I was looking around the various CPS we sites, and all I could find was a definition of "full time" photographer as 51% of income ("* A full-time photographer is defined as someone who generates the majority of their income from photography and who operates through a registered business"), not a definition of "professional photographer".

Another way to deal with the Tiger Woods issue would be to distinguish between active income and passive income. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who have far more passive income than active, but in terms of what they do from day to day, they are photographers.

Dave

There's very little about endorsement money that's completely passive...

Appearances, commercial shoots, voice over sessions, autograph sessions (both on location and from home), interviews (phone and video), etc, etc, etc...

Very little free time for the highest paid professionals. One doesn't just sit home and collect the checks.

tracknut
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 15:09
There's very little about endorsement money that's completely passive...


Good point. Well I'll let those who use the financial definition of professional deal with that particular issue, then. :)

Dave

imahawki
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 15:13
There's very little about endorsement money that's completely passive...

Appearances, commercial shoots, voice over sessions, autograph sessions (both on location and from home), interviews (phone and video), etc, etc, etc...

Very little free time for the highest paid professionals. One doesn't just sit home and collect the checks.

I think it was meant passive respective to the main career. When you shoot a Gatoraide commercial, you're getting paid for showing up, filming, etc. You're not getting paid for golfing. You're only in the commercial in the first place because you are one of the top golfers on the tour, but you're not getting paid for golfing.

FlyingPhotog
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 15:17
I think it was meant passive respective to the main career. When you shoot a Gatoraide commercial, you're getting paid for showing up, filming, etc. You're not getting paid for golfing. You're only in the commercial in the first place because you are one of the top golfers on the tour, but you're not getting paid for golfing.

Either way, you're pimping Gatorade because of what you do with your day job skills. There is still a connection.

Your average average weekend photo warrior isn't making side money as a photographer directly because of his/her skills with a pipewrench or a spreadsheet.

imahawki
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 15:17
LOL I have trouble admitting when my analogies fall apart.

Kincaid Photo
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 15:50
I am in favor of "professional" being used to describe the photographer, not the photographer's income. By the financial definition, the person working at Sears photo could be called a professional photographer. My humble opinion, as an aspiring amateur photographer, is that that "professional" should be a measure of ability, knowledge, and professionalism; not income or tax bracket.

Just my .02.

photoguy6405
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 16:20
I think it was meant passive respective to the main career. When you shoot a Gatoraide commercial, you're getting paid for showing up, filming, etc. You're not getting paid for golfing. You're only in the commercial in the first place because you are one of the top golfers on the tour, but you're not getting paid for golfing.
Would selling a photo over and over also be considered "passive" income? After all, you only took the shot once, not every time it was sold.

SheRidesABeemer
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 16:24
I think you have the right to call yourself a professional when other people refer to you as a professional photographer based on the work you do. I was catching a taxi in Edmonton, Alta, and the cab driver asked what I did. Just so happens he's seen my auroras on www.spaceweather.com (http://www.spaceweather.com) :lol: so when I said I was one of the pro photographers from the NWT he goes: "Karl Johnston?"
...


I love this story...apparently I'm a professional motorcyclist...except for the money thing, I've had stranger come up to me in all kinds of places and ask if I'm SheRidesABeemer :D Now if they'd just do it because they see the camera.

Tandem
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 16:31
I call myself a photographer but my clients often add professional to the title so I came up with the following thought...

Calling someone a professional means that there is a high likelihood that they will want to be compensated in some way for whatever it is they do.

RaymondXTi
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 16:47
I've been called a professional by strangers who see me with my gripped XTi and 70-200 2.8 IS L. I guess the big lens makes me look like a pro.

On the contrary, I've never been paid for a photoshoot. Haven't *got there* yet.

S.Horton
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 16:56
If there is a written contract, on which you must perform, then you are a professional.

Lordkwaz
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 17:20
I feel professionalism is how you handled your business

nphsbuckeye
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 18:30
I am in favor of "professional" being used to describe the photographer, not the photographer's income. By the financial definition, the person working at Sears photo could be called a professional photographer. My humble opinion, as an aspiring amateur photographer, is that that "professional" should be a measure of ability, knowledge, and professionalism; not income or tax bracket.

Just my .02.
Then all of us would be professional in 20 odd disciplines.

Your definition constitutes professional quality, perhaps, but professional means money.

Which this topic is interesting, because how many other professions are there that one brags to be a pro at, and not some other echelon?

S.Horton
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 19:01
^^ Happens at work, all the time.

No contract = not a pro.

DDCSD
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 19:08
I've got insurance, a sales tax license and some people pay me for my photographs, that makes me a "pro".

;)

Kincaid Photo
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 20:55
Then all of us would be professional in 20 odd disciplines.

Your definition constitutes professional quality, perhaps, but professional means money.

Which this topic is interesting, because how many other professions are there that one brags to be a pro at, and not some other echelon?

Well, then I am a professional photographer. As well, a professional race car driver, and a professional motorcycle rider, a professional mechanic, professional writer. I am non of these, nor do I claim to be by any definition of my own. The acceptance of money for the completion of a task as the definition of professional just doesn't work for me.

Perhaps some combination then, since no one here has yet to define professional in a manner in which everyone can agree on. The following, perhaps, in no particular order?

Contract
Money
Attitude
Knowledge
Background
Experience
Ability

Karl Johnston
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 21:10
Save us arguing with one another about whos more pro than the other... It would be great if we had a professional body to tell us when we qualified as professionals...Ya know...Like other professionals in other careers :p

Mike R
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 22:04
Teams I shoot for refer to me as their photographer, not "the guy who takes our pictures" These same teams give me (without my asking) 1/2 page ads in their booster books and I have received other work ( not team related) from the parents/coaches. So in their eyes, I'm a professional. That's all that matters. What my customers think.

FlyingPhotog
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 22:17
Then all of us would be professional in 20 odd disciplines.

Your definition constitutes professional quality, perhaps, but professional means money.

Which this topic is interesting, because how many other professions are there that one brags to be a pro at, and not some other echelon?

Video Production is one...

Anybody with a camcorder and Final Cut thinks they're a "production house."

Ain't necessarily so...

john-in-japan
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:07
This debate/lack of consensus has been around the block a few times before.
Without a minimal education requirement, no licensing, no recognizable certification, no continuing education requirement to maintain licensure, no professionally recognized society or association with entry/advancement requirements, no widely recognized logo mark, no competency assessement...and you can see where this is going... Canon Professional Services (CPS) requirements for Platinum Membership is:
- Must own and register 2x 5D and higher camera models, and 3 Pro lenses.
- Full-time professional photographer (>51% of your income from photography).
- $500 annual membership fee.
This is at least one 'credential', and I am not sure how much verification they need since I have not seen the application. Getting as many certifications/credentials as possible seems to certainly be a step in the right direction. For most, I would think the >51% is a show stopper. Is there a chart somewhere that indicates average annual incomes for certain kinds of photography? Does CPS require a statement of income? Over my head here as I am strictly hobby with no intent to go pro, whatever that turns out to be.
Cheers,
John

nphsbuckeye
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:17
No contract = not a pro.
That's probably one of the better definitions.
Well, then I am a professional photographer. As well, a professional race car driver, and a professional motorcycle rider, a professional mechanic, professional writer. I am non of these, nor do I claim to be by any definition of my own. The acceptance of money for the completion of a task as the definition of professional just doesn't work for me.

Perhaps some combination then, since no one here has yet to define professional in a manner in which everyone can agree on. The following, perhaps, in no particular order?

Contract
Money
Attitude
Knowledge
Background
Experience
Ability
I'm not quite sure what you are arguing or what is your point. I think you're talking to the wrong person, because I said before to the effect that a professional attitude has nothing to do with being a professional. Perhaps the quality is better, but pro means one is making money - now how much and from where are debatable.
Video Production is one...

Anybody with a camcorder and Final Cut thinks they're a "production house."

Ain't necessarily so...
True, but that is still fairly closely related (I know you've been in the field for probably longer than I've been alive, but we're not talking entire worlds apart; waiting to get ripped....).


Like the first thing I said: it's self-defined of how one wants to be identified.

mattograph
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:17
Has anyone here ever met an individual who is a full-time photographer who called themselves a "pro"? As Karl said, most full - timers just call themselves photographer. The pro part is added by others who attempt to differentiate themselves from other "types" -- whatever they may be.

I am not a full-time photographer, but I learned a long time ago that when I am working, I am a "photographer" pure and simple. Not a "part timer" or a "semi pro" -- I am the deal. Cause thats what people pay me for.

john-in-japan
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:21
Has there been a poll on how many members here are full time photographers?
John

FlyingPhotog
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:21
Has there been a poll on how many members here are full time photographers?
John

Several...

nphsbuckeye
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:22
Has anyone here ever met an individual who is a full-time photographer who called themselves a "pro"? As Karl said, most full - timers just call themselves photographer. The pro part is added by others who attempt to differentiate themselves from other "types" -- whatever they may be.

I am not a full-time photographer, but I learned a long time ago that when I am working, I am a "photographer" pure and simple. Not a "part timer" or a "semi pro" -- I am the deal. Cause thats what people pay me for.
I usually only hear people say what they shoot.

RandyMN
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:23
I personally do not care what makes a professional photographer since I only judge professional by the results one can achieve through past experience and being able to cope under any condition where no second chances are available for that which you are getting paid for.

Being considered professional by the general public means having the equipment, experience and the ability to produce what is expected while getting paid.

Most would like to think getting paid justifies professionalism, but it does not!

I doubt most photographers even care about the title since it doesn't hold much clout unless you own a studio or are a straving artist trying to make ends meet.

I think most photographers that could be classified as professional, do so from results while getting paid and still rely on a higher paying profession outside of photography.

DDCSD
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:28
To be fair, I use the word "experienced" when I describe myself to others.

I'm an experienced photographer. They can put other labels on me if they'd like.

mattograph
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:28
I usually only hear people say what they shoot.

Good point.

Wedding photog
portrait photog
architectural photog

etc......

john-in-japan
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:34
To Jay - Thanks.
Looked at three polls -
7.66% said their income was from full time photography
8.2% said their profession was photography
2.7% described themselves as Professional
1.8% described themselves as a Seasoned Professional

rumplepigskin
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:42
if you do it for a living you're a pro... if you make money at it sometimes you are a semi pro... if you have to get on here and tell people you're a pro chances are you're not... I have found a lot of nice helpful people on these forums and then I have found a lot of enormous egos on these forums also...

RandyMN
12th of June 2009 (Fri), 23:50
if you do it for a living you're a pro... if you make money at it sometimes you are a semi pro... if you have to get on here and tell people you're a pro chances are you're not... I have found a lot of nice helpful people on these forums and then I have found a lot of enormous egos on these forums also...

Egos, pro's, and making money is really what it's all about in the real world, not just in forums.

I've seen many jack ass professional photographers outside any forum.

Photography is a business more than a talent.

Success is just like any other business and if you think talent will make you succeed, your mistaken! Only business sense will do that...

S.Horton
13th of June 2009 (Sat), 09:57
I work in consulting.

When I notice someone working in my field of expertise, I decide whether or not they're a competitor based upon the type of deal (contract) they've won.

That does not mean that they can deliver. It does not mean that they're any good at all.

But because they signed a contract, they are professional.

Anyone else is an amateur, even if they are paid.

It is rare, very rare, for an amateur to do the job as well as a professional.

Experience makes all the difference; ability to sell, form a contract, deliver to the contract, then get the next deal, all spring from that.

nazpicman
14th of June 2009 (Sun), 06:18
I work in consulting.

When I notice someone working in my field of expertise, I decide whether or not they're a competitor based upon the type of deal (contract) they've won.
That does not mean that they can deliver. It does not mean that they're any good at all.
But because they signed a contract, they are professional.
Anyone else is an amateur, even if they are paid.
It is rare, very rare, for an amateur to do the job as well as a professional.
Experience makes all the difference; ability to sell, form a contract, deliver to the contract, then get the next deal, all spring from that.

This is my second summer working at a major music festival doing photography work. Both times I have signed contracts as to what both parties will be providing. There is no monatary compensation, but enough others including copyrights ownership and credentials to cover it. I have likened covering this event to "like an artist having an unlimited choice of paints on his pallette".
I think being a professional has more than to do with the business end of the deal. It is also how any given situation/assignment is approached, and then captured through the lens. There are many others in other "professions" that are real (expletive deleted) and not a credit to their titles earned with a little higher education dollars.

Sir Vic Alsmear
14th of June 2009 (Sun), 07:31
If you're paid for it.

That's what I think.

Doesn't mean a GOOD photographer though.

Spot on!

DaveL
15th of June 2009 (Mon), 20:19
I believe it should reflect on a few things

1. you conduct yourself in a professional manner

2. you receive payment for your work

3. your work shows the appropriate skill (ie: you
can properly frame and expose an image as well as
choose the proper background)

4. You have professional grade equipment and by this
I use the term loosely. There are a couple posters here
that still use Canon 10D's that are capable of generating
professional quality work...

5. You have the drive and ambition to succeed...

Stealthy Ninja
16th of June 2009 (Tue), 00:44
I believe it should reflect on a few things

1. you conduct yourself in a professional manner

2. you receive payment for your work

3. your work shows the appropriate skill (ie: you
can properly frame and expose an image as well as
choose the proper background)

4. You have professional grade equipment and by this
I use the term loosely. There are a couple posters here
that still use Canon 10D's that are capable of generating
professional quality work...

5. You have the drive and ambition to succeed...


I slightly emphasised the operative word.

LeeSC
16th of June 2009 (Tue), 15:37
The day I started keeping records of income generated, expenses and mileage for tax purposes I became a professional.




(at least in the eyes of the IRS!)

Stealthy Ninja
17th of June 2009 (Wed), 00:55
Some are born pros... for example...

Master Rockwell was born with PPA (http://www.ppa.com), ASMP (http://www.asmp.org) and NANPA (http://www.nampa.org) memberships.

By the age of 2 he was president of all 3.

So the legend goes.

Karl Johnston
17th of June 2009 (Wed), 01:27
What do you consulting guys do exactly? I've been meeting a lot of consultants lately...of all different types. Accounting, marketing, tax...give out information for a fee or something?

I should be a photo-consultant.

FlyingPhotog
17th of June 2009 (Wed), 01:30
What do you consulting guys do exactly? I've been meeting a lot of consultants lately...of all different types. Accounting, marketing, tax...give out information for a fee or something?

I should be a photo-consultant.

Consultant: Someone who borrows your watch so they can tell you the time!!!

:lol:

Stealthy Ninja
17th of June 2009 (Wed), 01:55
Lawyer: Someone who steals your watch so they can tell you the time!!! Then makes you pay for it.

:lol:

Fixed

Before people rabbit on about nothing. My best friend is a lawyer, so all jokes are fair and awesome.

brownbugger
9th of September 2009 (Wed), 02:25
I dont know where I fit in , my income is derived from only photography but I make too little to call myself a professional , probably when the struggle period is over will I call myself a professional.

Karl Johnston
9th of September 2009 (Wed), 04:10
You're a working photog :D if you like the term better ^

I want to become a master, but consider myself a professional now.

Stealthy Ninja
9th of September 2009 (Wed), 04:27
I'm a semi-working-professional-master-ninja-photographer myself.

The pay is light, but the fringe benifits! Woo HOO! Do they ever... suck.

Karl Johnston
9th of September 2009 (Wed), 07:01
That's the most kickass title in the world..try fitting it all on your business card, yet?^ :P

Stealthy Ninja
10th of September 2009 (Thu), 01:32
That's the most kickass title in the world..try fitting it all on your business card, yet?^ :P

I don't use a business card anymore, I just give away a small auto-biography called "Life in the Shadows of the Net."

Buy it at Amazon (a bit hard to find).



Just to point out to noobs who take everything they read too seriously...that was a joke.

skygod44
10th of September 2009 (Thu), 01:56
I don't use a business card anymore, I just give away a small auto-biography called "Life in the Shadows of the Net."

Buy it at Amazon (a bit hard to find).

Just to point out to noobs who take everything they read too seriously...that was a joke.

Hey...I bought that book and found it so useful I got a second copy to hold up another table with a wobbly leg! Just the right thickness, especially after I tore out the 65 page self-introduction chapter!
;)

So, how is The Stealthy One these days? Not been on here much recently (due to new businesses - including some photography on the side!) but I've 10 minutes free now, so thought I'd have a peek at a few threads.
:D

cdifoto
10th of September 2009 (Thu), 02:11
Not exactly, he recognized my name when I said I was a pro photographer..I hadn't told him my name prior to that. The fact that he could pull my name out of the hat like that is pretty cool :p
That would be cool. :cool:

silvex
10th of September 2009 (Thu), 02:52
If you're paid for it.

That's what I think.

Doesn't mean a GOOD photographer though.

Ding! right on the money!

DocFrankenstein
10th of September 2009 (Thu), 13:52
If a person makes a few dollars on the side doing photo jobs, does that make him/her a "professional photographer" OR is a "P.P." one who gets ALL of his income from taking pictures?

l would like to start earning a little income from taking pictures and have been offered to be paid in the past, but would like to know where the line is and when the term "professional" can be used.Professional - the person does it for a living. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with skill.

IE you can be a very good amateur and do it for pleasure. Or you can be a point and shooter, and just have a spot at some popular tourist destination and people will come to you.

ssim
10th of September 2009 (Thu), 14:28
It seems this subject comes up every so often and I am always intrigued at how badly some people want to call themselves a professional. When someone asks someone what they do for a living how often do you hear them say that I am a professional (fill in job here). Except here, people want to be called a professional photographer. When I am asked what I do or have to fill in a form, I am a photographer, nothing more, nothing less, even though I make all of my income from this. I think it sounds kind of hokey when you say professional photographer, much like it would if someone said that they were a professional electrician, musician, etc.

You can call yourself whatever you want in this industry as there is no designations that are legally or morally binding which I personally feel is unfortunate. There are designations that you can earn through the various national photography organizations but they have nothing to do with calling yourself a pro.

hkhorn10
11th of September 2009 (Fri), 01:25
I agree with SSIM to a degree. There are times when it's important to remind...or reinforce... to a client that you are a professional.

I think the term, by nature, carries some expectations:

1. That you are paid for your work.
2. That you work under contract for your work and are accountable for the quality you claim to provide.
3. That you provide some professional expectations for your product output (prints, D copies, Fine Art, etc).
4. That you will conduct yourself according to professional standards in your business (meeting deadlines, time commitments, personal presentation, general promises, product agreements, etc)
5. That you will understand your limitations and the limitations of your equipment and will not often find yourself in "over your head" at the detriment and expense of your client.

To me, if someone takes these things seriously, they are a professional. I don't think you need to often say this, but if there's a question of whether you are an "amateur", "hobbyist", or "professional", and you meet the list, I think you can confidently call yourself according to that title.

And clients do have a right to now if you will be conducting yourself as a hobbyist, amateur, or as a professional. It's one of the foundational elements in the client/photographer relationship and not being clear about it can lead to some tense circumstances--on all sides. If you shoot an event as an amateur and just try to "do your best and try things out", but they are expecting a professional output... it will be one of the most awkward moments of your life. So, too, with being 60% through a wedding and someone comments about how nice you are to do it for free-- when you never agreed to anything of the sort. That will also be a very awkward moment for you. And there are a million things in between those.