When is the time to put your foot down?

[bakerbranded]

Hey everyone,

Basically this thread is questioning when is a good time to stop shooting for free for everyone.

Background on myself is, I'm a 17 year old who is establishing them self as a Wedding/Engagement & Lifestyle Photographer. I have been doing really well for myself with this and am working hard to now brand myself since I have experience and am confident in my work. I have done many shoots in my field for free trying to gain experience (I would never want to charge for something I have never done.) Now that I have experience people are noticing and are willing to pay my price. I have paid for all my equipment myself except for my Sigma 30mm which was a gift and I'm still trying to pay for my 70-200 f/2.8 IS which I put on a credit card and am paying off $115 a month for one more year.

I plan on beginning to pay for my equipment through my business because my part time job goes to paying all my bills: Car Insurance, Cell Phone, Gym & Lens Credit Card + plus me paying for whatever I need. Total is $500+ a month. Needless to say I work hard and pay all my bills on time.

My Situation: My parents have many friends and those friends know I do photography. Well usually those friends talk to my mom first before ever talking to me. And she tends to hire me out before I ever know about it and because their friends, she expects me to NEVER ask for money or give a contract.

My mom says she knows everything that goes into my time as a photographer but she really doesn't. She thinks she knows the time everything takes, but she doesn't. They try and pressure me into feeling bad and it makes me very angry. I tell her she needs to stop hiring me out and stop trying to talk in my place. It happened again tonight. She argues that I'm 17 and live in their house. I don't give a damn what age I am. A business is a business, I pay for all my bills and equipment and never come to them for money. But I cant continue to do so if she continues to do this.

So overall how would you handle this situation and when is a good time to stop shooting for free for everyone. I will value everyone response.
I know word of mouth is great advertisement, but to what extent?

[WMS]

Mothers are like that, in her mind you are still 6 years old, and probably will be so until you are married and have children of your own. Now as to your question, The easiest way is to move out. And at 17 that just ain't going to happen. Find a job as a second photographers second shooter, then politely inform your mother that she can't just give your bosses time away as she has done in the past. Once she gets the Idea that you are paid for your photographic talents she will come around to be a marketing asset (or at least I would hope she will).

Wayne

[snyderman]

I'm a parent of a child about your age. I don't ever expect that my son will commit MY time and resources to his interests without first being asked and granted permission. Why on earth would your parents (your mom) commit your time and efforts to friends and relatives free of charge?!!

Ann Landers (rest her soul) would side with you, my young friend.

If your mom is the listening type, which I doubt she is, you might want to offer a commission / finders fee for the business opportunities she brings to you. This might be a compromise that both of you can live with.

Good luck. I went through this with my parents when it was playing gigs (guitar and singing) as a very young guy and actually MAKING good money doing so.

dave

[bakerbranded]

Mothers are like that, in her mind you are still 6 years old, and probably will be so until you are married and have children of your own. Now as to your question, The easiest way is to move out. And at 17 that just ain't going to happen. Find a job as a second photographers second shooter, then politely inform your mother that she can't just give your bosses time away as she has done in the past. Once she gets the Idea that you are paid for your photographic talents she will come around to be a marketing asset (or at least I would hope she will).

Wayne

I love my parents very much but I know when I'm 18 I will be out especially due to college, but other then that I hope it will be the last time I live full time here.

They love the whole "17" thing, but still thinks its just a "couple shots". they dont understand a 2-3+ hour shoot. Plus Photo editing, trying to pick the right photos because we are picky and then the printing. It takes a lot of time, especially for a student who works part time as well. But its what I love to do and I can always manage it.

[Karl Johnston]

Stop shooting for free....NOW!

There ya are :)

It's unfair she's being like that, I never had that from relatives; they insist on paying because they understand that.

Kind of immature really, but it's up to you to decide when its good to just keep your mouth shut and go along with it (hey if you're living at home, don't you owe them anyway?). I'd just do the favors, personally...cause not living at home is expensiver! :lol:

[bakerbranded]

I'm a parent of a child about your age. I don't ever expect that my son will commit MY time and resources to his interests without first being asked and granted permission. Why on earth would your parents (your mom) commit your time and efforts to friends and relatives free of charge?!!

Ann Landers (rest her soul) would side with you, my young friend.

If your mom is the listening type, which I doubt she is, you might want to offer a commission / finders fee for the business opportunities she brings to you. This might be a compromise that both of you can live with.

Good luck. I went through this with my parents when it was playing gigs (guitar and singing) as a very young guy and actually MAKING good money doing so.

dave

I think its because they don't fully grasp what all goes in to it.
They feel that because they are their friends that I'm committed to it.
My dad added a valuable point which I agreed with, he said "this can bring more jobs, word of mouth is great" I agree but to what extent and for how long. He thinks I'm acting like a hard ass to soon.

When I think of a couple snaps I think that I"m somewhere that I happen to have my camera and it is completely informal. Of course I'm cool with this. I enjoy doing this for people. But full shoots are something completely different that a few snaps.

My mom listens if she agrees with something but if she doesn't agree with it, she closes instantly. So compromise is most likely out of the question. They just said they would stop referring me all together if that's how I wanted to be. When they said this I told my dad "fine, go ahead I cant make you refer me." and that is when he said I was acting like a hard ass. What did he expect me to say "Oh dad please dont do that, ok ok I'll shoot for everyone for free!" That would be a negative.

And yes your situation with playing and singing would be very similar.

[bakerbranded]

Stop shooting for free....NOW!

There ya are :)

It's unfair she's being like that, I never had that from relatives; they insist on paying because they understand that.

Kind of immature really, but it's up to you to decide when its good to just keep your mouth shut and go along with it (hey if you're living at home, don't you owe them anyway?). I'd just do the favors, personally...cause not living at home is expensiver! :lol:

A lot of my relatives do and they pay me but for some they had made me give it back. I really do appreciate all they have done, but they took on the job of having a kid and having them live with you is in the job description. and I have done a lot in my life when it comes to "owe" them something. I am doing the favor because the people are close to them and me, so I am ok with doing this for them.

[imahawki]

Let this thread go for a little longer and then show it to your mother. You've said nothing offensive about her in your original post and why your mother would think your talent is unworthy of pay is surprising to me.

[bakerbranded]

Let this thread go for a little longer and then show it to your mother. You've said nothing offensive about her in your original post and why your mother would think your talent is unworthy of pay is surprising to me.

I honestly don't plan on showing them this thread. I want opinions to take to them but knowing my mom she would think of this as an attack and get very sad about this. Although its nothing to get upset over, I'm just asking for opinions on our situation. But knowing her this would get her really sad and my dad angry.

[SOK]

I think its because they don't fully grasp what all goes in to it.


That would be the key. And to be honest, there's probably little hope of showing/convincing them otherwise.

Frustrating, I know...but don't be too harsh on your folks. They've obviously done a pretty good job raising you thus far to become an intelligent, industrious and entrepreneurial teenager!

I'm not saying back down, just don't get too fired up over not seeing eye to eye about something that really will be quite trivial in the long run.

You could try explaining that by doing favours for free to strangers, it's unfair and downright insulting to your paying customers.

If they still aren't convinced, I'd just conveniently be unavailable for any potential 'favours' until you move out, keep the peace, and try not to stress too much.

I love my parents very much but I know when I'm 18 I will be out especially due to college, but other then that I hope it will be the last time I live full time here.

Many people your age notice a marked improvement in their relationship with their folks once they move out of home. I have no doubt you will too to some degree, and by then, this whole episode will seem like nothing more than a bump in the road.

Just my $AU0.02 (US$0.016 :D )

[bakerbranded]

That would be the key. And to be honest, there's probably little hope of showing/convincing them otherwise.

Frustrating, I know...but don't be too harsh on your folks. They've obviously done a pretty good job raising you thus far to become an intelligent, industrious and entrepreneurial teenager!

I'm not saying back down, just don't get too fired up over not seeing eye to eye about something that really will be quite trivial in the long run.

You could try explaining that by doing favours for free to strangers, it's unfair and downright insulting to your paying customers.

If they still aren't convinced, I'd just conveniently be unavailable for any potential 'favours' until you move out, keep the peace, and try not to stress too much.



Many people your age notice a marked improvement in their relationship with their folks once they move out of home. I have no doubt you will too to some degree, and by then, this whole episode will seem like nothing more than a bump in the road.

Just my $AU0.02 (US$0.016 :D )

I agree about convincing them as well as that they have been great parents. And they are proud of what they have done. But the thing is although they may be strangers or acquaintances to me, they are not to them and that is why they think its ok.

Although I have a good relationship now, I feel that once on my own it will improve some of those rougher patches. Or at least I hope it will :) 361 days till my 18th birthday.

[imahawki]

I honestly don't plan on showing them this thread. I want opinions to take to them but knowing my mom she would think of this as an attack and get very sad about this. Although its nothing to get upset over, I'm just asking for opinions on our situation. But knowing her this would get her really sad and my dad angry.

That shows a great deal of maturity on the one hand, but on the other, you should be able to speak frankly with your parents without fearing their reaction.

[FlyingPhotog]

Give your Mom a great big hug and thank her for her love and support. Then, tell her that she has one more year to be your "Rep" but when you turn 18 she must stop "selling" your services without your consent. You are currently a minor and as such, you have no rights. Further more, you are a minor living at home which means you really have no rights.

When you turn 18, be prepared to hand her a rate card and be prepared to move out of the house.

Good Luck

[bakerbranded]

That shows a great deal of maturity on the one hand, but on the other, you should be able to speak frankly with your parents without fearing their reaction.

I do not fear it per say, but I am 17 and still live with them, so they still have the power to control my life the way they want to. Plus I'm the type of person who hates seeing others upset and making people sad. I have a really strong conscience.

[my name is always taken]

Why does this happen to every photographer?
I understand where your coming form , I get ask'd to shoot things sometimes but generaly decline. if it's family then I usualy go ahead with it because it's family.
Fortunatly my parents are understanding and know when I'm not interested....
In your case as karl said stop shooting for free.
Otherwise there is possibily two ways to get out of it......
1. Sabotage- tho this can hurt your photography- Im saying start taking **** pics, cut heads off people, leave people out and maybe just do half the job your ment.. maybe then your mum might see this and ask you why ? then you can explain you dont work for free...
2. This is called TOUGH LOVE. screem at her, make her understand your passion,and that you dont work for free. and ask her does she understand ? Ask her would she work for free ? (do your homework here because if she does and you ask that question then you will look dumb).... After all this and for gods sake she understands apologize for screeming at her but it was the only way to get through to her.
sometimes mummies need this... TOUGH LOVE
OR you could send your mum an invoice for your time. if you have a business (what ever size) send her one and see what she says then, and then argue that your not a free worker.
In the end it sounds like your going to argue with them about it, to make yourself heard and understood.
Another one could be just dont turn up to where your ment to be.....
and if people do give you money ask them to do it when you mum aint around.

where do you put the photos you take ? who gets them ?

[bakerbranded]

Give your Mom a great big hug and thank her for her love and support. Then, tell her that she has one more year to be your "Rep" but when you turn 18 she must stop "selling" your services without your consent. You are currently a minor and as such, you have no rights. Further more, you are a minor living at home which means you really have no rights.

When you turn 18, be prepared to hand her a rate card and be prepared to move out of the house.

Good Luck

Jay,

This sums up almost exactly what I posted after you. I do have no rights right now. Even my freedom of speech sometimes feels limited.

[imahawki]

Sorry, fear is not the right word... I don't mean you're afraid of them... just that its too bad you can't sit down and have an honest conversation, adult to adult and not risk hurting their feelings. But if you can't you're probably doing the right thing for now.

[FlyingPhotog]

Sorry, fear is not the right word... I don't mean you're afraid of them... just that its too bad you can't sit down and have an honest conversation, adult to adult and not risk hurting their feelings. But if you can't you're probably doing the right thing for now.

I don't think I finally had an "adult to adult" conversation with either of my parents until I was nearly 30.

They were always my parents and I simply morphed from child, to older child to grown child.

[bakerbranded]

Why does this happen to every photographer?
I understand where your coming form , I get ask'd to shoot things sometimes but generaly decline. if it's family then I usualy go ahead with it because it's family.
Fortunatly my parents are understanding and know when I'm not interested....
In your case as karl said stop shooting for free.
Otherwise there is possibily two ways to get out of it......
1. Sabotage- tho this can hurt your photography- Im saying start taking **** pics, cut heads off people, leave people out and maybe just do half the job your ment.. maybe then your mum might see this and ask you why ? then you can explain you dont work for free...
2. This is called TOUGH LOVE. screem at her, make her understand your passion,and that you dont work for free. and ask her does she understand ? Ask her would she work for free ? (do your homework here because if she does and you ask that question then you will look dumb).... After all this and for gods sake she understands apologize for screeming at her but it was the only way to get through to her.
sometimes mummies need this... TOUGH LOVE
OR you could send your mum an invoice for your time. if you have a business (what ever size) send her one and see what she says then, and then argue that your not a free worker.
In the end it sounds like your going to argue with them about it, to make yourself heard and understood.
Another one could be just dont turn up to where your ment to be.....
and if people do give you money ask them to do it when you mum aint around.

where do you put the photos you take ? who gets them ?

I could not sabotage or do the tough love thing and I'm not sending my mom an invoice, that would not fly and I would feel to bad lol :lol:

But when it comes to working for free I will admit my dad does a lot of concrete work for HIS friends, but its almost like me asking my dad "Hey can you go pour a driveway for one of my friends, you dont really know them but I said you could do it already and you wouldn't charge them."

Its kinda like that.

[bakerbranded]

Sorry, fear is not the right word... I don't mean you're afraid of them... just that its too bad you can't sit down and have an honest conversation, adult to adult and not risk hurting their feelings. But if you can't you're probably doing the right thing for now.

Yes now this sounds exactly right.

[bakerbranded]

I don't think I finally had an "adult to adult" conversation with either of my parents until I was nearly 30.

They were always my parents and I simply morphed from child, to older child to grown child.

I have a feeling this could be me, lol. :lol:

[ishmelly]

I agree with what everyone has said so far. I would like to suggest you get some business cards ASAP. Since your mom is making you shoot for free why not hand out business cards to those you shoot for free? If they like your service give them a card and hopefully they'll recommend you to others. Then you can shoot your referrals for $$$

[my name is always taken]

maybe play there game as you said......

give them things to do for your friends so on. I mean if there cool parents then they might get the joke ?.
like you said you need to put your foot down
and without a little conflict its impossible.
as your dad if he can come poor a slab here for us? im sick of the job im on, and now its ment to rain all week.

best of luck what ever way you go with

[bakerbranded]

I agree with what everyone has said so far. I would like to suggest you get some business cards ASAP. Since your mom is making you shoot for free why not hand out business cards to those you shoot for free? If they like your service give them a card and hopefully they'll recommend you to others. Then you can shoot your referrals for $$$

Well this is in the process currently and I need money to also do this which is supposed to be though shooting but yes I agree with you. What I have been doing right now are cheap 4x6 business cards till the real ones are done with my new email and website in the making.

[bakerbranded]

maybe play there game as you said......

give them things to do for your friends so on. I mean if there cool parents then they might get the joke ?.
like you said you need to put your foot down
and without a little conflict its impossible.
as your dad if he can come poor a slab here for us? im sick of the job im on, and now its ment to rain all week.

best of luck what ever way you go with

Lol I dont think my mom will find it funny because I told her since I"m going for the "Mckelvey Teen Business Scholarship" I need at least one employee on a payroll with taxes, I said I would hire her and she said that it was not a funny joke. lol

[tkbslc]

Just shoot your mom's stuff for free and consider it cheap rent and food. When you get your own place and are really paying your own way you can start saying no. I know you think you are all grown up at 17 (I did) but you would be surprised how much you aren't and how much your parents did when you move out.

Also, think of it as more experience and portfolio building. Regardless of your talent level, at 17, you still can't have THAT much experience.

[Drozz119]

If your Mom's friend wanted you to cut their grass, would she pay you?? OF COURSE!!

2-3 hours of cutting grass - Probably $80-100 (lawnmower $300) (Skill -ZERO)
2-3 hours Photoshoot/Editing - $0 Pay?? (your gear $ 4000++) (Skill - YES)

[bakerbranded]

Just shoot your mom's stuff for free and consider it cheap rent and food. When you get your own place and are really paying your own way you can start saying no. I know you think you are all grown up at 17 (I did) but you would be surprised how much you aren't and how much your parents did when you move out.

Also, think of it as more experience and portfolio building. Regardless of your talent level, at 17, you still can't have THAT much experience.

I know I'm not but feel I should be somewhat older.
I have a pretty fair amount by the time I go full into it, regardless of age it would be the same if someone was 45 and bought their first camera and decide to go pro a week later. Its a sad truth but I know my age hurts me in the professional world and people look down and dont respect you as much and try and buffalo their way through to get what they want for as cheap to free as possible and I will not stand for that. That is why I will not be advertising my age.

[bakerbranded]

If your Mom's friend wanted you to cut their grass, would she pay you?? OF COURSE!!

2-3 hours of cutting grass - Probably $80-100 (lawnmower $300) (Skill -ZERO)
2-3 hours Photoshoot/Editing - $0 Pay?? (your gear $ 4000++) (Skill - YES)

Exactly, but most 17 year olds are doing #1 instead of #2 especially back in their time.

[ChrisRabior]

A very easy way to politely duck out of the situation is to ask when, and inform them you already have a PAID gig scheduled for that day.. for every time they ask, until money is brought up.

If they always expect it for free, they can never give you grief over being busy if your schedule is full of paying work (even if you don't actually have paying work). On top of that, it makes a very clear statement that you charge for your work, and that most often brings the follow up question regarding your pricing.

You really should sit down and have a serious talk with your parents about it. If you don't know how to approach your mom, maybe ask your dad and explain how you've explained here.. he'll probably have an idea of how to bring it up to her in a way that will cause the least conflict.

[bakerbranded]

A very easy way to politely duck out of the situation is to ask when, and inform them you already have a PAID gig scheduled for that day.. for every time they ask, until money is brought up.

If they always expect it for free, they can never give you grief over being busy if your schedule is full of paying work (even if you don't actually have paying work). On top of that, it makes a very clear statement that you charge for your work, and that most often brings the follow up question regarding your pricing.

You really should sit down and have a serious talk with your parents about it. If you don't know how to approach your mom, maybe ask your dad and explain how you've explained here.. he'll probably have an idea of how to bring it up to her in a way that will cause the least conflict.

They usually know what I tend to be shooting and who but I see where your going with it. And as for my dads help, he is completely in it with my mom. So that one is out. But thanks for your suggestions.

[Alleh]

It can be hard for many people to understand that photography is a business especially sense the digital era made everyone walking out of Costco with an SLR kit a "photographer"

The people close to you will always volunteer your services until you are so far beyond their level that they finally get the point. It's going to be important to learn how to say no and stick to it. My girlfriends friends often go to her asking if I will do photography for this or that, things I don't even do as a professional. They don't understand that I spend more money trying to establish myself as a commercial photographer every month than many of them spend on their rent or mortgages. I had to sit down and tell her she can't speak even one word on my behalf. Things can get even worse than just doing free work when family and friends are setting up the transactions.

Being young can be a major burden while building a business. All the time people come into my studio and tell me they thought I was going to be older, I'm 25 and look younger. Being 17 has to be much worse and going into the retail thing will make that even worse.

The commercial world leaves a little more room for talented younger photographers you may want to consider that road.

[bakerbranded]

It can be hard for many people to understand that photography is a business especially sense the digital era made everyone walking out of Costco with an SLR kit a "photographer"

The people close to you will always volunteer your services until you are so far beyond their level that they finally get the point. It's going to be important to learn how to say no and stick to it. My girlfriends friends often go to her asking if I will do photography for this or that, things I don't even do as a professional. They don't understand that I spend more money trying to establish myself as a commercial photographer every month than many of them spend on their rent or mortgages. I had to sit down and tell her she can't speak even one word on my behalf. Things can get even worse than just doing free work when family and friends are setting up the transactions.

Being young can be a major burden while building a business. All the time people come into my studio and tell me they thought I was going to be older, I'm 25 and look younger. Being 17 has to be much worse and going into the retail thing will make that even worse.

The commercial world leaves a little more room for talented younger photographers you may want to consider that road.

Completely agree 100% with you.
I'm 17 and look it, so I dont have the upper hand of looking somewhat older for the most part. Thanks for the suggestions but what I'm doing now i have a passion and drive for and that is why I stick by its side.

[iN5P1R3]

I know how you feel. Initially, my mother thought the idea of me starting a senior photography business was crazy. She was afraid that my clients would sue me for every little thing (she's rather paranoid).

If I were you, I would stop doing free shoots NOW. Sometimes, parents do not understand the work and effort put into photography. Photography is time consuming—especially when it comes to post processing images.

Don't let your mother guilt trip or force you into doing something you don't want to do. (I guess it'd be easier if you were a cold, cruel, heartless being like me :lol:) Just say no and walk away.

Good luck.

[bakerbranded]

I know how you feel. Initially, my mother thought the idea of me starting a senior photography business was crazy. She was afraid that my clients would sue me for every little thing (she's rather paranoid).

If I were you, I would stop doing free shoots NOW. Sometimes, parents do not understand the work and effort put into photography. Photography is time consuming—especially when it comes to post processing images.

Don't let your mother guilt trip or force you into doing something you don't want to do. (I guess it'd be easier if you were a cold, cruel, heartless being like me :lol:) Just say no and walk away.

Good luck.

I'm sure your not all that cold, cruel and heartless but even so I am not so its hard. About the only mean thing I can do is hold a grudge for a long time. Lol its weird but I am really good at it.

[Jmark11207]

Start telling your friends that she will pick them up from parties at 3 in the morning


lol

[Mike R]

A lot of good advice has been posted already but another thing to try is to say that. "Oh, to do that job, I would need......and it costs.....", fill in the blank with anything from lenses, new body,strobes, memory, Whatever you need or want. So the people your mom is offering your services to can tell them what it will cost to have you do the job for free.

[RDKirk]

I plan on beginning to pay for my equipment through my business because my part time job goes to paying all my bills: Car Insurance, Cell Phone, Gym & Lens Credit Card + plus me paying for whatever I need. Total is $500+ a month. Needless to say I work hard and pay all my bills on time.

My suggestion has been made earlier, but I'll make it again.

Establish your costs and fees in a professional manner. You have to do this anyway if you want to establish a business, and everything except your paycheck and taxes apply to you even now. If you show your parents that you have everything figured out and show them the costs, they may be more willing to listen to you. Frankly, if they have never been involved in running a business, they may actually be unaware of what it entails.

Count all your costs, no matter how small, and to do a single job and determine the averages per job. Figure the gasoline you spend on trips to and from the session. Figure what you spend making prints, including any paper and ink spent on test prints. Figure the cost of packaging if you buy envelopes or boxes. All your costs per job make up your "Cost of Sales."

Another part of your Cost of Sales which will be notional right now--but be sure to include it--is your own salary. If you were running a business, your own salary is an expense. Give yourself a wage, say $15.00 per hour. Total the hours you spend on a job--travel time, shooting time, processing and editing time, packaging time, every single minute and apply your hourly wage to it. Put that into the total (use a different color, if you want, to identify this as a "notional" cost).

Do the same thing with sales taxes. Because you're working for free, you don't have to charge a sales tax, however the worth of your work is taxable to your "clients" as income. So get into the habit now of figuring the proper amount.

Put all these cost figures into a spreadsheet so that as they change over time (or as you get more accurate figures), you can just update a single number and it will automatically figure the changes.

Then determine your annual overhead, which will include an estimate of what you will need to upgrade equipment and software. Include liability insurance (which, by the way, you should have even if you're not being paid for a session--friends can turn on you instantly if someone trips over a stand or falls while you're posing them), and also include zero amounts for things you're not paying yet, such as your own hospitialization insurance, retirement plan, advertising/marketing, et cetera. Just put spaces for them in the spreadsheet with zero amounts--for now.

Next step is figuring how many photo jobs you can conceivably do in a year, given your other obligations. Divide your annual overhead by that number to determine how much overhead must apply to each job, and add that "overhead" to the per-job Cost of Sales.

Finally, determine what kind of profit you want your business to earn. Notice that your business profit is not your salary. The business profit is what you use to expand your business, such as to buy an additional lens (not to replace a current lens). The business profit may only be 10% of your Cost of Sales, but put that figure on the spreadsheet.

Now with all that data in place, this is what you should always do: Prepare an invoice for every one of those "free" jobs and deliver it with the work. There will be a final price that you will then note as "complimentary" and zero out. That way everyone will see what your work should have cost them and the worth of the gift you've given them.

[Burnt Toast]

My parents are the opposite. They get mad at me when I don't charge (I'm 18, by the way).

I say the best time to start charging is when you feel comfortable and confident in your work to do so.

[spkerer]

A business is a business, I pay for all my bills and equipment and never come to them for money. But I cant continue to do so if she continues to do this.


Remember that likely from their point of view the above is NOT true. You're not paying all your bills - room and board being biggies. Health insurance? I'm not trying to be a jerk saying this, just trying to help you see where they may be coming from.

My thoughts would be something along the lines of (1) being "busy" - ideally with paying gigs - when your mom is wanting to set you up as a freebie and (2) in the cases that slip through, look at them as payment towards your room and board and general family goodwill.

I also like the business card idea. For the people your mom has setup as freebie customers for you, you could give them your business card and let them know that you do this as a business. In addition to the word of mouth that may generate, they will know you do this as a business and see their "freebie" as a gift arranged by your mom, not your norm. I suspect it would also have some of them tend to want to compensate you in some way.

[roszell]

If your Mom's friend wanted you to cut their grass, would she pay you?? OF COURSE!!

2-3 hours of cutting grass - Probably $80-100 (lawnmower $300) (Skill -ZERO)
2-3 hours Photoshoot/Editing - $0 Pay?? (your gear $ 4000++) (Skill - YES)

This is great. I would definitely use this. Also, consider offer a discounted rate to them instead of cutting them off, but make it known that you are doing them a favor since they are friends of the family.

[golfecho]

Scott,

This has been a great thread, because it touches on so many aspects of life, not just the budding photographer's plight. Many really good things have been brought up, and I will try not to be redundant.

First, you are still living with your parents, and much of your “overhead” costs (as mentioned above, insurance, food, room, etc) are covered and below your radar scope. So any other (read: older and on their own) photographer would have to have a payment schedule that covered these expenses. I suspect that this one aspect is (at least subconsciously) what your mom takes into consideration. You on the other hand, have additional costs such as your time and equipment. I agree that you need to stop working for free, but for your mom’s clients, you should be prepared to present a “discount” rate from what would otherwise be a standard pricing. So I would recommend that you develop your own standard price list, make sure it is on your web site, and (most importantly) make sure your mom knows this standard schedule. Then when she “books you” again, you can be in a position to offer the standard “mom’s client” discount. Make sure mom knows that this is because of all her support, and that this discount covers just your costs.

Second, is a bit more philosophical. Raising of offspring is done differently by different people. I believe that the transition from a “dependant child” to an “independent adult” should not happen like the throwing of a switch. As youngsters develop through their teen years, parents should be prepared to allow a little more freedom/decision-making as time goes on, to give them the flavor of their life ahead. Similarly, once out of the nest, they should be prepared to be somewhat of a “safety backstop” in case the independence has a few snags. What I mean is, the transition needs to take place over time, and not be a “kick out of the nest on your 18th birthday”.

I suspect that you have received some really great advice in this thread, and it mostly because so many folks here have “been there, and done that”, both as a parent and as a son/daughter. Ultimately, you will need to work this out as it best fits you, but please remember that instant decisions and/or reactions are often driven by emotion, especially when certain “hot button” issues are concerned. And burned bridges are never available to re-cross when strategic retreat becomes necessary.

Best of luck in your new career!

[arkphotos]

Ask your mom to be your assistant at all the free shoots & sit with you while you process the images.

[sspellman]

Scott-

Being 17 and living at home does not give you many options. As far as realistically making progress in the right direction in the near future, I would simply agree to limit the time that you do free work for your parents/friends. You can do this by selecting 2-3 days you may be open for the free projects, giving yourself the other days for paid work to build your business.

Another important aspect of this is to use SmugMug or similar gallery/print service to get all your customers to place their orders, and eliminate any print costs. SM provides you the ability to set custom pricing so you can at least make a small profit over cost on the print orders.

-Scott

[obnoxiousmom]

You might be 17 but you are not her slave. Living under her roof doesnt give her the right to free out your services

[imahawki]

You might be 17 but you are not her slave. Living under her roof doesnt give her the right to free out your services Actually it does. And the OP has already stated he doesn't want to damage his relationship with his parent. He is a dependent minor and within the law, his parents can make him do anything they want.

[S.Horton]

"Mom - I love you, but when you commit me to shoot for free I get upset"

"Mom - I noticed that you give away my services"

"Mom - I love you. Let me show you how much work it is to do a shoot. After we're done, let's agree to a minimum price that my client's need to pay."

Now, FWIW, you'll miss her terribly when she's gone.

Treasure even the moments she gives your services away, because she probably does that trying to help.

It will be over soon. < 1 year.

Signed,
Dan Flanders

(wide grin)

Seriously, you stay calm, you stay direct, you're likely to get what you want.

[snyderman]

Bakerbranded,

I have a great idea. I'm dropping off my HS football player at Edinboro Univ of PA for a Linemen camp end of June. I can swing up to Erie, pick you up and bring you back to my home in NE Ohio. Tell your mom she can pick up my 340 lb offensive lineman in return.

When she gets a taste of Blake's monthly food bill, she'll start to see things YOUR way!!!!

Just kidding, of course! I wouldn't trade my eating machine for anything!!!

[kjtw73]

LOL, I charge my mom...although a LOT less than I charge others...

[TMCCaptured]

Thanks to the members on this site and their kind words and loving words (basic kill me if i shoot free anymore) I grew a pair of balls and charged for the first time a while ago. My fear was of rejection because I may not be worth market rate. But these people know best and their help guided me thru that issue of fear...now it is normal and I never look back...and now I can eat Ya-hoo!!!!

[Box Brownie]

Firstly I would say its great that you doing what you love and getting paid for it ~ I wish I did!

I have read thorough quickly and sorry if I missed this already but have you ever suggested that your mum or dad assist you on a shoot and then the PPing - for the whole of the number of hours it takes - i.e. let them get a complete insight into the process.

Now apart from the 'family aspect' of the whole matter which based on your description and some feedback will always be a hard hurdle to jump but bear in mind that harsh words & bad feelings now could come back and bite you and/or your mum sometime in the future. Though I cannot recall the singer/song title there is song about a father never there for his son because he worked so hard for the family & when the son grew up he was never there for his father ~ I know its not your situation but the theme is kind of the same lines to make sure you do not create (family) problems for the future, maybe?

Best of luck with working it out and keeping the bridges strong family wise for the future.

:)

[S.Horton]

@Scott - Nice start you have on Flickr -- Sports: Shoot tight, crop tighter.

Select a university track which compliments your skill and avocation.

Enjoy!

[golfecho]

. . . . Though I cannot recall the singer/song title there is song about a father never there for his son because he worked so hard for the family & when the son grew up he was never there for his father . . . .
:)

That would be "Cat's in the Cradle" by the late Harry Chapin

[Box Brownie]

That would be "Cat's in the Cradle" by the late Harry Chapin

Thanks for that, I hate a mystery.

The other thing that occured to me was that the OP mentioned that his mum & dad said something like "well doing all these for free will lead to good recommendations and paying jobs............" . Well it has done so yet and the caveat for it if hasn't yet IMO is how much would he have made even asking for a special friends & families rate for the job i.e. how much 'value' in business terms has he lost by doing things his mums way???

How many 'jobs' has he done for free and on that basis I would hope that 1 in 5 could lead to a qualified lead/recommendation but having said that many who make real money say "free leads to demands for free, because why should I pay when the Jones family did not...." Even if you are doing the jobs for no charge (note - not for free) surely there should be a statement somewhere that says this has a value of $xxx i.e. its a gift but this was its cost in the 'real world'.

Right enough rambling from me I am off to see who will give me free lunch just because I can tell all those other folk I meet how good the food was "there".

[photoguy6405]

My Situation: My parents have many friends and those friends know I do photography. Well usually those friends talk to my mom first before ever talking to me. And she tends to hire me out before I ever know about it and because their friends, she expects me to NEVER ask for money or give a contract.

My mom says she knows everything that goes into my time as a photographer but she really doesn't. She thinks she knows the time everything takes, but she doesn't. They try and pressure me into feeling bad and it makes me very angry. I tell her she needs to stop hiring me out and stop trying to talk in my place. It happened again tonight. She argues that I'm 17 and live in their house. I don't give a damn what age I am. A business is a business, I pay for all my bills and equipment and never come to them for money. But I cant continue to do so if she continues to do this.

So overall how would you handle this situation and when is a good time to stop shooting for free for everyone. I will value everyone response.
I know word of mouth is great advertisement, but to what extent?



Haven't read the entire thread, but if it were me... and as a very last resort... I'd stop having the "hobby" until I turned 18. I'd just tell mom that I'd lost interest and not shoot anything for a few months until I was out from that situation.

[Jethro790]

It's simple... when Mom comes to you next and tells you she wants some shots taken for her friends, hand her a list of your rates. Make a hand out on the computer with your rates, and if she gets heated when you hand it to her, act dumbfounded, but not defensive. Then simply ask her if the contract should have her name on it or the friend. If she gets heated again, tell her that if your rates are too expensive, there are plenty of cheaper, less skilled photographers available. Finally, tell her you are prepared to give her a 10% discount if she signs the contract today.

The above exchange will either go very well or very poorly. Either way you win by either getting a paid assignment or not working for free.

[OdiN1701]

The first thing that you need to do is to learn to use left justify in your posts.

[photoguy6405]

The first thing that you need to do is to learn to use left justify in your posts.

Why?

[Nightstalker]

Actually it does. And the OP has already stated he doesn't want to damage his relationship with his parent. He is a dependent minor and within the law, his parents can make him do anything they want.


I thought that you lived in the "Land of the Free" - many people fought long and hard to abolish slavery.

[golfecho]

Why?



Exactly what I was going to do . . . you beat me to it.

[imahawki]

I thought that you lived in the "Land of the Free" - many people fought long and hard to abolish slavery.
While your comparison to racial slavery is hyperbole, conceptually its not far off. If a minor doesn't want to be under the rule of his/her legal guardian, they sue for emancipation. A minor who is successful doing this is an emancipated minor.

The government and society recognize certain parental responsibilities and with that grant parental rights. Its not appropriate for a 5 year old to make decisions for themselves. The government had to then draw a line in the sand and they picked 18. Yes its arbitrary. It could be 14 or 16 or 17, but its not, its 18.

[polarbare]

Just talk to your mom and make it clear that you're not doing any more work for free. When I was running computer stores my mother would tell her friends to bring over their PC and she'd have me look at it. After the 2nd or 3rd time I made it quite clear that my time was valuable and that from that point forward I would not work on any more people's PCs outside of my regular work hours for regardless of whom it was. My stores billed at $90/hr or $120/hr for an in home visit. She of course did good for a couple months then did it to me again at which point I explained to her friend exactly what I told my mother.

In photography, we tell our families we'll do it for (immediate) family for free with no expectations or you pay full price.. No halfway stuff.

[mikekelley]

I've graduated college and my mom still gets pissed when she finds out that her friends are paying me for my services, even when it was me who they contacted via a business card or a website.

:lol:

[OdiN1701]

Why?



L
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[ZGMF-X20A]

In photography, we tell our families we'll do it for (immediate) family for free with no expectations or you pay full price.. No halfway stuff.

+1 on this...

[bakerbranded]

Thanks again everyone for all the comments and suggestions.
The only thing is its not just my mom but both her and my dad. Plus I didn't mean to make them out as "bad looking". I love them very much and their great parents.
So thanks for some of the suggestions and I hope this thread has so far helped others.

As an update to the last free event my mom got me.
It was last notice and the people wanted me to shoot them in the office and some portraits for stuff. And they needed the photos in a couple hours. I was willing to do this for them. And after I got done shooting. They handed me $100, so it was more then what I would of charged if they did hire me. So it worked out in the end, not saying that will happen all the time though.

[bakerbranded]

@Scott - Nice start you have on Flickr -- Sports: Shoot tight, crop tighter.

Select a university track which compliments your skill and avocation.

Enjoy!

Thank you, that is my flickr with more older stuff. but as for sports i never shoot them, it was a one time thing helping my cousin who is also my best friend, so that was for free and so were his modeling photos on my blog.

And I have decided on a university.
I really like RIT, NYU & Loyola Chicago.

[RDKirk]

That would be "Cat's in the Cradle" by the late Harry Chapin

About the most honestly tragic song I've ever heard (as opposed to being manipulatively tragic).

Which reminds me. I should get off the computer and give my 30-year-old son with two kids of his own and a stressful managerial job a call right now.

[golfecho]

About the most honestly tragic song I've ever heard (as opposed to being manipulatively tragic).

Which reminds me. I should get off the computer and give my 30-year-old son with two kids of his own and a stressful managerial job a call right now.

Not to dive too far off the subject, but that song was so very emblematic of life when I first was dating my wife, and we always said that we wanted to learn this lesson from his song, and not through making the same mistakes ourselves. Needless to say, it is almost impossible to not be afflicted to one degree or another by the "trap" that this song portrays. I spent way too much of my time when my kids were teens, working too hard, and being gone too often. I would try as hard as I could, but in the end, I think I connected with them OK. Oldest: Not enough, two younger (twins) fine. I subconsciously measure how often each calls me today, and there is a definite pattern between them. I just don’t know if there is any correlation with teen-years time together . . .