Hypersync gets 1/8000 from studio strobe? yep.

[k_strecker]

So, I finally got around to testing hypersync

The lights are an *old* pair of Calumet/Bowens Travelite 750s

I started testing at Max power, since that should give you the longest flash duration with which to work with.

there's not much to say really

here's the ambient no-flash exposure

1/8000 @ f/2.8
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/sJIVE2872.jpg

and here's the flash doing it's thing!
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/sJIVE2871.jpg

here's a shutter curtain clipping test
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/sJIVE2862.jpg

impressive, no?

Now for the weirdness. I can sync all the way up to 1/8000 at any strobe power without problem as long as I'm using the flex as the receiver. Further weirdness is that I didn't even have to change the hypersync settings! They're just doing it right out of the box on my standard C1 setting I use for ControlTL. They'll also mix just fine with the canon strobes ETTL. That's great, but means I'll eventuallly need 2 more flex receivers if I want to go all out hypersync with every flash I own . . . and who doesn't want to do that every once in a while? :)

But using my OooOooOOld (bought it used, i'm not that old) pocket wizard with the dial in the middle I can only get away with 1/2500 if I dial in -2500 microseconds on the delay. I think that's only coincidence.

It does make some sense though, since the old receiver has more internal delay than the Plus models.

[Edited by ChronicPest on 6/17/2009 10:34:53 AM]

[bobbyz]

Like mentioned in another thread, how does one control subject exposure in this case. I think Robert brought up this issue.

[k_strecker]

Like mentioned in another thread, how does one control subject exposure in this case. I think Robert brought up this issue.

I guess you'd have to Guess and Check, at least until you get a feel for power/distance relationship at the higher shutter speeds. Fortunately my units continue to sync as you dial down flash power.

[vadim_c]

Like mentioned in another thread, how does one control subject exposure in this case. I think Robert brought up this issue.
What's wrong with using a lightmeter/ISO/Aperture ?

[k_strecker]

you're getting less than the total ammount of light from the flash when you start upping the shutter speeds like that. Your light meter would lead you to get underexposed flash.

[Starbucker]

How do you trigger the Speedlights via ETTL and the old Pocketwizards simultaneously? I thought that the Control TTL worked on a different frequency? Can the Mini output both signals simultaneously? I've got 2 PW II's so the ability to run the old ones and new ones at the same time would be great. Thanks.

[k_strecker]

How do you trigger the Speedlights via ETTL and the old Pocketwizards simultaneously? I thought that the Control TTL worked on a different frequency? Can the Mini output both signals simultaneously? I've got 2 PW II's so the ability to run the old ones and new ones at the same time would be great. Thanks.

Well, yes and no.

The Mini does indeed transmit ControlTL and Standard channels at the same time, and those can be set to anything you want independent of one another.

But there's a catch. The Standard channel will only be broadcast up to the shutter speed where FP/HSS takes over. The dropdown menu on the flash timing tab controls where that threshold is.

*unless* you disable FP/HSS with the checkbox on that same tab. Then you'll continue to send the standard signal at any shutter speed *but* the HSS won't be activated on Canon Strobes anymore.

The reason for the split is that you'd need to set the Hypersync Delay for your standard strobe in order to not get shutter's clipping into the frame at those above x-sync shutter speeds. But that delay would be given to the Canon speedlights as well and they'll fire before the shutter even opens. Remember, hypersync delay is a negative number, so it's firing *before* the shutter opens in order to get a clear exposure across the frame.

But the workaround is to use a Flex as a receiver for your studio strobe, as it will continue to trigger it using the ControlTL signal and the canon speedlights will still work in normal FP/HSS mode.

make sense?

[k_strecker]

here's a photo . . .

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/JIVE2903.jpg

the Sunpack's connected to an old pocket wizard (hanging in the black bag bottom left)

the 580EX is on a flex, group A

the 430EXII is behind me group B

ST-E2 on camera set B:A ratio to 8:1, enough to illuminate the flashes with the 430EXII and keep the 580EX from doing anything more than show it's actually firing.

But, as soon as I go above 1/400 (what I have it set for in the utility) the Sunpack will stop firing and the 430EXII and 580EX will switch into HSS.

*THIS* is why backwards compatability is important to maintain. THIS is why there are interferance issues. If they had designed the Flex/Mini to operate on new frequencies then this setup or anything else requiring a PlusII or other legacy pocket wizard would be way complicated. I'd have to trigger an old transmitter with the camera's PC sync, and the mini on top of the shoe . . .

[btmlinedan]

is hypersync a light or a trigger/receiver combo? i'm lost...is it wireless? cabled? I can't tell you how annoying it to get stuck by shooting 1/200 sync when i'm shooting cars w/ flashes and it's too bright. . . i end up cranking the aperturen down to f6.3 or f7.1 and then my flashes aren't bright enough.

is this the answer to my prayers or is this something else?

[k_strecker]

is hypersync a light or a trigger/receiver combo? i'm lost...is it wireless? cabled? I can't tell you how annoying it to get stuck by shooting 1/200 sync when i'm shooting cars w/ flashes and it's too bright. . . i end up cranking the aperturen down to f6.3 or f7.1 and then my flashes aren't bright enough.

is this the answer to my prayers or is this something else?

First thing's first. It's a function of the new Pocket Wizard Transmitter, either the dedicated MiniTT1 or the transceiver FlexTT5. It's definitely wireless.

However, as with all things there's no entirely free lunch here.

check out this spread

These are all at f/5.6 ISO 100
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/hypersincpowerspread.jpg

Then compare it to the base exposure I got with the flash at full power 1/50 @ f/22 ISO100

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/khs6/JIVE2936.jpg

I just did the above test to see how flash exposure changed as i adjusted power and shutter speed while keeping the rest constant. I could obviously have changed aperature and ISO to normalize them, but then I wouldn't see the realativeness of it.

[Wilt]

Using a Hypersych cannot defy the laws of Physics...electrons have to travel to a flash, the flash has a fixed duration (at a given power setting) and the shutter blades are open fully only AT or BELOW the x-sync speed.

The Hypersych cannot get electrons faster to the flash than if they went thru a wire!

If it is defying the speed of light (the speed of electrons in a wire), then we better find Einstein because his theory has just been shot to hell (pun intended)

[DDCSD]

The PW Hypersync function is simply telling the strobe to fire before the shutter opens. The flash duration for the strobe is long enough that it is lit for the entire time that the shutter is open.

The trick to Hypersync is that it reads the signal sent by the camera that actually tells the unit that the shutter will open, before it even starts.

I suspect that a unit with a shorted flash duration won't work nearly this well.

Very neat though!

[S.Horton]

Cool!

[btmlinedan]

The trick to Hypersync is that it reads the signal sent by the camera that actually tells the unit that the shutter will open, before it even starts.



Very neat though!

if this is true...someone's a badass

[Wilt]

The 'no free lunch' comment is true. From Rob Galbraith explanation of the Hypersync's two modes of use...

"1. Incrementally bumping up the standard shutter sync speed while simultaneously not sacrificing strobe brightness or introducing a thick black band at the bottom of the frame (when the camera is held horizontally).

"This HyperSync mode is most useful when you're trying to minimize ambient light and maximize strobe efficiency at the same time. Prior to HyperSync, this task was most easily accomplished by running a wire between camera and strobe, because the delay associated with any wireless flash trigger meant switching to a slower shutter speed to avoid a black band invading the base of the frame. By signaling the flash to fire a bit ahead of when the camera normally would on its own, HyperSync allows for a sync speed that is both higher than previous wireless trigger devices and higher than a wired connection too.

"2. Allowing flash sync up to the top shutter speed of the camera, but at the expense of strobe efficiency. This second HyperSync mode works by firing the flash well before the camera normally would, which means the camera's shutter opens well after the strobe's peak brightness has passed. As a result, the camera captures the gradually fading light at the end of the strobe burst. If the strobe's light dims gradually enough during the very brief time the shutter blades are letting photons pass through to the sensor, it simulates, sort of, continuous light.
You can expect to lose several stops or more of light intensity, plus you'll need a long flash duration strobe to achieve fairly even illumination and fairly consistent colour from the top to the bottom of the frame.

"Despite some significant restrictions on its usability, this HyperSync mode may be among the few ways to balance or overcome sunny day ambient with your strobe, in those situations when a Canon or Nikon flash in high speed synchronization mode doesn't have enough jam to light the scene (which is often the case in our experience)."



Effectively this is like HSS mode...the slit of the shutter opening travels across the frame while the flash output is continual, so the captured photos in any portion of the frame is fewer...resulting in effectively 'loss of flash power'

[RDKirk]

The trick to Hypersync is that it reads the signal sent by the camera that actually tells the unit that the shutter will open, before it even starts.

The pre-flash signal that normally tells an automatic flash to fire the pre-flash.

I suspect that a unit with a shorted flash duration won't work nearly this well.

Correct. And shortening the flash duration with each new model is one of the design goals of flash manufacturers.

[FlashZebra]

The 'no free lunch' comment is true. From Rob Galbraith explanation of the Hypersync's two modes of use...

"1. Incrementally bumping up the standard shutter sync speed while simultaneously not sacrificing strobe brightness or introducing a thick black band at the bottom of the frame (when the camera is held horizontally).

"This HyperSync mode is most useful when you're trying to minimize ambient light and maximize strobe efficiency at the same time. Prior to HyperSync, this task was most easily accomplished by running a wire between camera and strobe, because the delay associated with any wireless flash trigger meant switching to a slower shutter speed to avoid a black band invading the base of the frame. By signaling the flash to fire a bit ahead of when the camera normally would on its own, HyperSync allows for a sync speed that is both higher than previous wireless trigger devices and higher than a wired connection too.

"2. Allowing flash sync up to the top shutter speed of the camera, but at the expense of strobe efficiency. This second HyperSync mode works by firing the flash well before the camera normally would, which means the camera's shutter opens well after the strobe's peak brightness has passed. As a result, the camera captures the gradually fading light at the end of the strobe burst. If the strobe's light dims gradually enough during the very brief time the shutter blades are letting photons pass through to the sensor, it simulates, sort of, continuous light.
You can expect to lose several stops or more of light intensity, plus you'll need a long flash duration strobe to achieve fairly even illumination and fairly consistent colour from the top to the bottom of the frame.

"Despite some significant restrictions on its usability, this HyperSync mode may be among the few ways to balance or overcome sunny day ambient with your strobe, in those situations when a Canon or Nikon flash in high speed synchronization mode doesn't have enough jam to light the scene (which is often the case in our experience)."



Effectively this is like HSS mode...the slit of the shutter opening travels across the frame while the flash output is continual, so the captured photos in any portion of the frame is fewer...resulting in effectively 'loss of flash power'
I think much like the electronic flash equivalent of an FP flash bulb.

Enjoy! Lon

[Wilt]

I think much like the electronic flash equivalent of an FP flash bulb.

Enjoy! Lon

You would mention that! Why'd you have to, you old fossil?!

;)

Fossil Photographer flash bulb

[DDCSD]

if this is true...someone's a badass

It was quite a find by the PW folks.

The pre-flash signal that normally tells an automatic flash to fire the pre-flash.

Wow, I couldn't figure out what they found that told them the shutter was about to open. Almost too obvious!

[akfreak]

@DDCSD "It was quite a find by the PW folks." Huge Find, well not really. Canon does some wierd stuff or this would of been done long ago. Example on the 430exII when you put the flash in HSS mode the center pin gets some weird sublimated voltage back to the camera. Usually that pin is just a trigger lead, so you can try to tap in there to install a sync port but you will only get 1 trigger signal then the funky voltage blocks the ability to use that lead as a trigger. Really a PITA for me. (but you can still use the sync port to trigger the 430exII off camera with a PW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSOXiLzs2co&feature=plcp&context=C38769adUDOEgsToPDskL27NqAL6PbypWF43q_T8C_ )) just not a PW from the flash.

This may be new to Canon but I have been doing it with Oly Gear for years.
See the video proof here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK7VC80NSvw&feature=plcp&context=C3ed1f61UDOEgsToPDskIkJHb_X0BAZIiUXjvgqa21 ) I was hosting that video on a different site but Snapfish bought motionbox ;( so I had to put it on YouTube. However I was doing this ever since the E-3 came out 2009.

Oly invented HSS (called it fp MODE) and I was able to HSS my speedotron 805 pack at 1/8000th no banding with a cheap ebay trigger. All wirelessly, no need for flex, PW or any other high dollar gear

I have been working on a litte hot shoe adapter that will let you slip in a wireless trigger and slide a switch to trick a Canon camera in to HSS mode. I have been working on the 220ex ( the cheapest flash to put my 7D into HSS mode) with an oscilloscope trying to understand the circuit.

People should not have to pay several hundred dollars to sync a camera to long duration flash. A little built in micro adjustment circuit for timing, similar to the ones used to trigger a flash for stopping a bullet or water drop photography. And the correct input on the pins to put the camera in HSS mode. Lots of camera use a combo of mechanical and electronic shutter during HSS. It all depends on the brand, this is I still have a Nikon D70s the sync speed is incredible.

Anyways thanks to the OP for the info and his findings.

[Wilt]

This may be new to Canon but I have been doing it with Oly Gear for years.
See the video proof here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK7VC80NSvw&feature=plcp&context=C3ed1f61UDOEgsToPDskIkJHb_X0BAZIiUXjvgqa21 ) I was hosting that video on a different site but Snapfish bought motionbox ;( so I had to put it on YouTube. However I was doing this ever since the E-3 came out 2009.

Oly invented HSS (called it fp MODE) and I was able to HSS my speedotron 805 pack at 1/8000th no banding with a cheap ebay trigger. All wirelessly, no need for flex, PW or any other high dollar gear

Olympus first launched this high speed shutter flash 'FP mode' with the F280 made to work with the OM-4Ti c1997. The press failed to be impressed back then, due to the effects on Guide Number and effective flash distance. It took the advent of the dSLR to impress the newcomers, since the veterans weren't impressed.

[RDKirk]

The press failed to be impressed back then, due to the effects on Guide Number and effective flash distance. It took the advent of the dSLR to impress the newcomers, since the veterans weren't impressed.


And the higher quality of digital at higher ISOs that mitigated the loss of effective flash power.

[akfreak]

Well I Ditched the Mini tt1 it was not able to HyperSync with my Speedotron 805 pack without banding after 1/1250th.

I tried every known timing, I dealt with Mac Group. The advanced tech and they said I could get 1/500 but never 1/8000th. So I ditched the Mini TT1 and used my the old $15 method, I love Pocketwizard but the New Flex5 and Mini is way over priced and sucks for what I want to do. I want to be able to take a flash picture at any shutter speed my camera has. I want no banding with any strobe I decide to use, speed light or pack.

After all the fustration I made a blog post and video to help show others what to do, and what I went thru to get where I am. As I said I am used to doing 1/8000th sync with a 4/3rd sensor (easy, sensor so small) But the 7D was harder for me, I thought the Control TL was the answer but I was way wrong.

My blog and video here (http://lilsamedia.com/blog/wordpress/) I simply have no banding at any shutter speed. I am working on a box tat will slip into the hot shoe and will put the camera in HSS mode. This little box will a have a hot shoe pass thu and run any radio transmitter.

And yes I know there is no such thing as a 220exII ;)

[bobbyz]

man show me how you do 1/8000 here with some pictures. I started the video but it talks about min,flex. Heck I know how they work show me your trick and why it is so good, simple. I don't want to go through the whole video on how bad min,flex are, I read all those paragraphs on the blog already.

[sempaidavid]

Just fast forward the video. It's really quite simple.

man show me how you do 1/8000 here with some pictures. I started the video but it talks about min,flex. Heck I know how they work show me your trick and why it is so good, simple. I don't want to go through the whole video on how bad min,flex are, I read all those paragraphs on the blog already.

[digital paradise]

I have heard of hypersync but never really took any interest so is my first crack at it. The way I understand this is in hypersync the flash fires before the shutter opens and then the flash duration has to be on for entire shutter cycle. Is that correct? So all this has to be timed. Continuous lighting seems simpler.

Now with this optical slave method the flash fires and it signals the OFC flash to fire via any type of trigger. In the video I noticed the flash was on manual. So how does it get the OCF to fire before the shutter opens? For that to work it just seems that it would have to be in TTL so the pre flash can can trigger the OCF flash. I'm just basing this on threads I have read where people are having problems because TTL is setting off an OCF prematurely. This can't be right because the presenter hates TTL.

I'm sure I have this all wrong. This is my first hour getting trying to understand hypersync.

[AntonLargiader]

HS is two things:

1) With a short duration flash (such as flashguns where the light mostly happens in less than 1/2000 second), it's fine-tuning the start point to be closer to the moment that the 1st curtain is all the way open, letting you close the second curtain sooner (higher shutter speed). In this case, all (or at least the vast majority) of the illumination happens while the sensor is fully exposed. It works up to the changeover point that K-strecker refers to, which can be different for each of us depending on our camera and our needs (sometimes banding is an acceptable compromise).

2) With a longer and more even flash duration, it's more like HSS or continuous lighting. The flash is triggered before the 1st curtain opens and lasts long enough to expose the frame. Shortening the exposure time will be in your favor here because you finish the exposure sooner, but you still (always) have the shutter travel time which is about 1/250 to 1/400 second depending on the camera and you need illumination for that whole time.

3) I guess there is a 3rd way, you can cheat some on each of these methods and you may never notice because losing a little bit of the light to an opening or closing curtain doesn't affect your images enough.

[elv]

Well I Ditched the Mini tt1 it was not able to HyperSync with my Speedotron 805 pack without banding after 1/1250th.

I tried every known timing, I dealt with Mac Group. The advanced tech and they said I could get 1/500 but never 1/8000th. So I ditched the Mini TT1 and used my the old $15 method, I love Pocketwizard but the New Flex5 and Mini is way over priced and sucks for what I want to do. I want to be able to take a flash picture at any shutter speed my camera has. I want no banding with any strobe I decide to use, speed light or pack.

After all the fustration I made a blog post and video to help show others what to do, and what I went thru to get where I am. As I said I am used to doing 1/8000th sync with a 4/3rd sensor (easy, sensor so small) But the 7D was harder for me, I thought the Control TL was the answer but I was way wrong.

My blog and video here (http://lilsamedia.com/blog/wordpress/) I simply have no banding at any shutter speed. I am working on a box tat will slip into the hot shoe and will put the camera in HSS mode. This little box will a have a hot shoe pass thu and run any radio transmitter.

And yes I know there is no such thing as a 220exII ;)


The only problem with this method is that you can't adjust the timing at all. You really got luckly to some degree there with the Speedo, not every light is going to be ideal with the standard timing. I know the speedlights work with a full frame but the timing is still not at their best so the power is not what it could be.

Since your making a device though you might like to have a look at the Ojecoco H-550 as well because they have somthing really interesting, a manual timing adjustment dial on the side of the Tx -

http://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157627493192848/

I can get an extra full stop of light out of a 580ex with the H-550, compared to the hack or TT5's.

They also have an interesting way of picking up the early HSS shutter signal by using a shutter release cord constantly connected to the cameras shutter release socket!

Your not going to want to swap a whole bag of PW for them but its very interesting to see what they have done. They need some refinement too but the manual adjustment dial is the important thing.


One other point you touched on in the video is timing different lights. So say your using 2 different monolights, or monolight and speedlights together, and one is giving a black band and not the other. With PocketWizard now you can even change the timing seperately on each receiver to suit different lights! So same shot two different flash sync timings. You can't do that with the hack or Ojecoco.

Should also note Pixel King, and Knight, as well as the Phottix Odin also do this Hypersync hack (with no timing adjustment).

And also the hack with optic salve will depend on the radio triggers used too. PocketWizards are very fast, Pixel Soldiers are pretty fast too, but many of the triggers will produce a different timing because they have more delay (and sometimes the delay varies).

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4100/4884983486_fe3e2c6691_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/15168416@N00/4884983486/)

[elv]

I have heard of hypersync but never really took any interest so is my first crack at it. The way I understand this is in hypersync the flash fires before the shutter opens and then the flash duration has to be on for entire shutter cycle. Is that correct? So all this has to be timed. Continuous lighting seems simpler.

Now with this optical slave method the flash fires and it signals the OFC flash to fire via any type of trigger. In the video I noticed the flash was on manual. So how does it get the OCF to fire before the shutter opens? For that to work it just seems that it would have to be in TTL so the pre flash can can trigger the OCF flash. I'm just basing this on threads I have read where people are having problems because TTL is setting off an OCF prematurely. This can't be right because the presenter hates TTL.

I'm sure I have this all wrong. This is my first hour getting trying to understand hypersync.


Becasue the 430exII he has on camera is set to FP HSS, when it fires off its burst of little flash pulses (as FP HSS always does) the very first pulse starts well before the actual shutter opens. So the optic slave pics up that very first pulse and sets off the slave flashes before the shutter has opened as well.

This all works on tapping into that early FP HSS signal (one way or another) to make a flash fire before the shutter opens (so only the slow burning continous light tail is left while the shutter is open).

[digital paradise]

Oh I see now. Makes sense.

[bobbyz]

Just fast forward the video. It's really quite simple.

I know but folks should share things here on POTN than asking to read their blogs, IMHO. Maybe I am getting to be old for this blog things.:D End of my rant.

Now time to go and check that video again.

[AntonLargiader]

I couldn't get the video to work in any of my browsers, but it did work with a direct link:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/-p72unkkh0I

However, the narration is way too fast/choppy... I bailed. :( I guess I'm getting old, too!

[Dave Jr]

This is very interesting stuff.

[akfreak]

I posted a blog entry because I get people who are starting to go there, I also posted a link to the blog because it has lots more info. I just you YouTube to host video.

I am teaching a speed lighting class here (Vegas) in 3 weeks at Casey's Camera. I will touch on the benefit of HSS, its use with speed lights and studio strobes. Most of it will be about speedlighting and Canon Flash,

Now to what the Mac Group said about HyperSync ( not HSS). They said the Mini TT1 can sync some studio packs, they gave me a list. They also said with HyperSync, do not expect sync at speeds of 1/8000th but more like 1/500th. 1/500 isn't really what I was wanting so I had to press further. I could get to 1/1250th but that was lame for a $200 transmitter. When I can do it for way way less.


When people say I got lucky. Ok I must be very very lucky indeed.
So with my 430ExII and 220 ex to put my 7D in HSS. I can sync at 1/8000th with my Novatron 440 HDX, 660 HDX, Speedotron 805,1201A, 2403CX, 4803cx, The speedo heads I have are the 202 and 206 vf, 102, 103 and 106's. Speedotron flash duration is based on the flash tube and not the actual power dialed in. All of them work and have no banding. One can expect a 2 to 2 1/2 stop loss of light vs the same power at or below normal sync speeds.

Now to the speed lights I have are Vivitar 283, 285 & 285 HV's, Nikon sb 22,sb s4, sb28, sb80dx, sb 600, quantum q2, q3, some older quantaray flashes for Minolta, Olympus t32, Fl36 and fl50, a Promatic TBL, and lastly the Pentax's AF500FTZ and the Af280T.

Here is the deal every single one will work and show no banding at 1/8000th using the slave.

Am I lucky on all of them. Yes I have to bump the ISO on some of the weaker ones but the main thing is they all work 100%. Can someone explain my findings. I think Mini TT1 falls short because it does not offer a dummy mode. A mode that does not learn from the preflash,example would be to replicate the first learning shot over and over as a setting, Like moving from C1 to C2 then back to C1 between shots. The TT1 in Hypersync mode shows no banding at a lot of high shutter speeds if the timing is close. However the follow up shot shows banding when it applies the timing offset to the preflash info.

I also think the TT1 firmware need to have more timings at its disposal to fine tune as well as longer delays so it can work with more flashes. It is quite limited in the hyper sync mode.

With that said if you have a TT1, 3 to 4 430exII's or 580exII's, 3 to 4 flex tt5's and an AC3 you could use the system and be quite happy. I just see a better use of all that money. # grand can buy some nice studio lights (used that is;))

When

[digital paradise]

I learned a lot from your video even though by the end I figured you should look into decaffeinated coffee :D

[elv]

Yes, I think one of us will have to sink a case of redbull or take a sedative before we can connect on the same level here :-)

I didn't know about the Speedotron flash duration being independent of the flash power, thats pretty handy in this case.

We have been playing with this hypersync hack for years, you can see some early discussion here -

http://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157604362003933/


I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the hack, just that if you like to take a look into this further there is more to it.

If you shoot a plain white wall to start with so the flash is back far enough that their is no vignetting from the flash itself you will be able to see the gradients across the frame as the flash pulse is dying off. With no timing adjustment you just have to accept what you get there.


To try and put this into perspective, the few times I have mentioned the hack here I've been shouted down by people proclaiming its totally useless with their gear. So good luck :)

[elv]

I forgot to mention, there is 2 methods PocketWizard are calling Hypersync, the "Peak" and "Tail" methods.

When they speak of only going to 1/500th that is the peak method (which uses the peak end of the flash pulse, not loosing any power)

After 1/500th you have to start using the tail method which is just like the hack (but you can still tune the timing).

You can read about them here under Hypersync -

http://wiki.pocketwizard.com/index.php?title=Understanding_HyperSync_and_High_S peed_Sync

[AntonLargiader]

.. Can someone explain my findings.

Probably not necessary; I think you understand it pretty well. It's pretty clear that you are in the 'continuous light' flash mode, whether you want to call it tail hack, FP, HSS, continuous, or whatever. Your loss of light efficiency backs this up. Once you are past about 1/500, this is simply how it is; a short flash will not expose the whole sensor no matter what.

If you think you're talking about something else (I don't think you do), when during the shutter cycle do you think the flash is firing, and how long is it lasting? That's really what it's all about, no matter how one gets there.

I can reduce or eliminate banding on my 430 by increasing the power. It's actually one of the 'cheats' I mentioned before, but it doesn't show up in most shots. As elv mentioned, shadowing from various timing cheats will be there, it just might take a really controlled condition to make it apparent. For which a lot of us are thankful!

I do agree that the timing controls provided by PW are not completely intuitive and may not be completely versatile (I say 'may' because I'm still exploring the v6 firmware but my impression is that it's not completely versatile). I hope to post a tech article soon that illustrates the timing details a bit more clearly than I've found them elsewhere.

[PhotographersWorldWide]

I am teaching a speed lighting class here (Vegas) in 3 weeks at Casey's Camera. I will touch on the benefit of HSS, its use with speed lights and studio strobes. Most of it will be about speedlighting and Canon Flash,

.......

Am I lucky on all of them. Yes I have to bump the ISO on some of the weaker ones but the main thing is they all work 100%. Can someone explain my findings.

How can you be running a speed lighting class and need somebody else to explain your findings here ??

Which part do you need help with?

Tubes are important, so too is the light head/pack technology, so too is the power output - despite what you said - and so too is the camera you're using along with it's shutter, format and make. HSS loses output - big disadvantage - Hypersync can increase output, or not, or simply not work.. depending.. and depending on what you set it to along with which flash it's attached to. Using Hypersync you can increase output (or range) or both if needed in bright light, - particularly useful in bright light - and 1/8000s is easily possible with numerous other radio triggers including basic ebay Cactus triggers and slave cells - all to varying degrees, although Hypersync 'peak' is only available with PW's ControlTL. All the lights you mentioned are dependent on all these factors to various extents - some are 'good' and some ('Yes I need to bump the ISO') are pretty useless, but can be caused by a slow trigger transmission latency. So which in particular do you not understand?

[akfreak]

@ PhotographersWorldWide,The question was rhetorical. I dont need anyone to help me understand? I fully understand what is going on. I also think Canon is doing something else in HSS. I have played with many camera systems and each of them are different. Like the Nikon D70 that controls the sensor electronically in conjunction with mechanical shutter. It syncs at 1/500 natively. The preflash signal that super imposes on the center pin (the trigger pin) back to the camera is used as a check value to control the timing of the actual sync.

That signal was new to the 7D, the 5D, 5d mkII dont have it. As canon evolves it builds in technology to safe guard against people exploiting features and or reverse engineering. Example Dual Digic and magic lantern, I just find it interesting how many experts are out there that dont have anything to say on a topic until after someone else has shed light on a topic.

Being able to HSS to a studio strobe with my 7D has always been a sore subject for me. I could do it so easily with my E-3 but not on the 7D. I had high hopes for the Mini TT1, but after testing, and testing, dealing with many levels of tech from Mac group. I find the PW HyperSync technology is not anything special at all. It is just a fancy timer, in a sexy package and a slick GUI.

However it does not allow enough flexibility in its adjustments to really dial in on all strobes. If it could, it would still be a pita because most strobes duration is based on the power settings. So if you did get a certain strobe dialed in at 1/8000th when the light was full power when you dial it down the sync timing would be off.


PW's solution is fire everything at Full Power and this will give you the longest duration and wont change. Well this is what they tell you to do. IMO that is a horrible strategy. You as a photog should be able to control the power at anything you want, and you should be able to use any shutter speed you want. If you cant do that then to me something is wrong.

The cameras today have ever sophisticated processors and light meters. I think one of them could measure the mount of light coming in a lens and for how long it was there (intensity and duration). Then be able to use that info to adjust the proper offset in the signal to fire the strobe based on the set shutter speed.

The problem is Canon, Nikon, Oly, Pan, hell of them dont care about this ability, the firmware is not open source so we are forced to buy solutions from company's who market tools that may or may not work with specific applications and gear combinations.

This is why people buy the latest and greatest of everything no matter the cost, just so they can be different.

I know all about the use of Fleabay triggers, they work just the same as any other trigger for this application. PhotographersWorldWide thanks for taking your time to clear things up for me, I see you have got all of the answers about Canon flash systems so I will ask you some specif questions.

When we talk about Canon flash Protocol, What exactly happens on the trigger pin we will call (X) during the first flash when an HSS enabled speed-light is set to on and we take the first shot. What exactly is the information sent to the camera on the follow up shots. You see the camera controls clocking and sends data commands to the flash, the flash then sends the reply when the camera clocks the next command and makes changes based on the settings of the camera. So many more variables like Capacitor switching,Voltage lowering and IGBT tail trimming and their uses to control duration. But I wont open those cans of worms until I have to.

So far I know two categories of commands: Setting stuff and reading stuff, arguments between these commands allow controls of the camera to be limited or not limited. If I can understand that super imposed signal on "x" (what PW calls the learning preflash signal), I can cheat and tell the camera to enter HSS, the same way the TT1 does. This way I can finish my project I started the first day I got my 7D.

You see Canon is notorious for changing something with each new camera model, and it is evident when you see people try to use non OEM flashes smd lenses and find they dont work as advertised

I want to build a E-ttl hot shoe pass thru with a switch to enter HSS mode. Then there will be no need for a Optical slave, and I will put a micro timer dial to help you adjust to sync various strobes. No need to enter a fancy GUI, no need to loose TTL (if you want to do a part TTL part manual config of lights), No need to replace all of your radio triggers to play with the available features in your expensive DSLR that is hobbled by choice by the manufacturer.



PhotographersWorldWide I have been doing this sync hack since Oly invented HSS. it was in the 80′s Olympus invented Super FP flash for their OM3 and OM4. So you can say I have been doing HSS fo quite some time now. I appreciate the fact you feel the need to hold my hand and offer me true insight to what is going on. However unless you can get real technical and discuss exactly what is happening in a 7D specifically during the preflash signal to the camera as well as subsequent shots so I may recreate this exactly in a new circuit, I dont think I need any help from you.

I have the feeling you think I dont fully grasp what is happening here. Here is a link (http://youtu.be/HK7VC80NSvw) to a video I made ad hosted at motion box (no defunct) so forced to host on YouTube, back when the E-3 first came out. I was using Flea bay triggers at 1/8000th with my 805's.

PhotographersWorldWide I am sorry if you took me as an idiot, ignorant, or in need of advice. I hate when I do that, it forces me to waste both of our time. You trying to show everyone who smart you are and how dumb I am. Then there is me having to respond to show you I am just a person who is trying to shed some light on a topic with real examples. Now just lip service. My PM box was completely full from people wanting to understand this or needing help, so I guess I helped some people unlock some of the capability of the 7D. Also I hope I may of saved many people from spending hard earned cash on the novelty the TT1 touts.

PhotographersWorldWide thanks trying to make me look even more dumb than I already am. I never said I was smart, I just said I will be teaching a speed lighting class. It doesn't take much brain power to read a manual ;)) Seriously tough. I didn't need someone to explain how all of my strobes and speed lights work using the optical slave when the tt-1 fails on all counts. I know why, it's very simple answer. Because it does! I am sure I can find a strobe that wont work with the optical slave. I haven't tried Broncolor, Profoto, Aurora, Bowens, Elinca, Hensel but I will if you want me to.


If you really want to stop a subject HSS isnt the way. High speed photography used fast flash duration's to stop objects. I know if I was to use an Einstein 640 at 80WS in action mode I would get banding. It is the only mono light that I know of that has IGBT circuitry built in a mono block (IGBT circuitry is standard for speed lights). So there you go too much info on a subject that I know nothing about. Thanks for your help though, I am sure all Photographers World Wide will be happy now. Happy to know they are done reading this long ass post!









[/B]How can you be running a speed lighting class and need somebody else to explain your findings here ??

Which part do you need help with?

Tubes are important, so too is the light head/pack technology, so too is the power output - despite what you said - and so too is the camera you're using along with it's shutter, format and make. HSS loses output - big disadvantage - Hypersync can increase output, or not, or simply not work.. depending.. and depending on what you set it to along with which flash it's attached to. Using Hypersync you can increase output (or range) or both if needed in bright light, - particularly useful in bright light - and 1/8000s is easily possible with numerous other radio triggers including basic ebay Cactus triggers and slave cells - all to varying degrees, although Hypersync 'peak' is only available with PW's ControlTL. All the lights you mentioned are dependent on all these factors to various extents - some are 'good' and some ('Yes I need to bump the ISO') are pretty useless, but can be caused by a slow trigger transmission latency. So which in particular do you not understand?

[AntonLargiader]

It is just a fancy timer, in a sexy package and a slick GUI.

I'm glad for the GUI, and of course you're right that it is at heart a timer. The shutter does its thing, the flash does its thing, and all you can really affect is the timing of one vs. the other.

As you also said, flash duration is hugely important and a longer duration covers up a variety of timing problems.

So, on timing and duration, when in the shutter cycle do you think your speedlight is firing, and at what duration, giving you no banding at 1/8000?

[PhotographersWorldWide]

@ PhotographersWorldWide,The question was rhetorical. I dont need anyone to help me understand? I fully understand what is going on.

Being able to HSS to a studio strobe with my 7D has always been a sore subject for me. I could do it so easily with my E-3 but not on the 7D. I had high hopes for the Mini TT1, but after testing, and testing, dealing with many levels of tech from Mac group. I find the PW HyperSync technology is not anything special at all. It is just a fancy timer, in a sexy package and a slick GUI.

PW's solution is fire everything at Full Power and this will give you the longest duration and wont change. Well this is what they tell you to do. IMO that is a horrible strategy. You as a photog should be able to control the power at anything you want, and you should be able to use any shutter speed you want. If you cant do that then to me something is wrong.

I want to build a E-ttl hot shoe pass thru with a switch to enter HSS mode. Then there will be no need for a Optical slave, and I will put a micro timer dial to help you adjust to sync various strobes. No need to enter a fancy GUI, no need to loose TTL (if you want to do a part TTL part manual config of lights), No need to replace all of your radio triggers to play with the available features in your expensive DSLR that is hobbled by choice by the manufacturer.

PhotographersWorldWide I have been doing this sync hack since Oly invented HSS. it was in the 80′s Olympus invented Super FP flash for their OM3 and OM4. So you can say I have been doing HSS fo quite some time now. I appreciate the fact you feel the need to hold my hand and offer me true insight to what is going on. However unless you can get real technical and discuss exactly what is happening in a 7D specifically during the preflash signal to the camera as well as subsequent shots so I may recreate this exactly in a new circuit, I dont think I need any help from you.

PhotographersWorldWide thanks trying to make me look even more dumb than I already am. I never said I was smart, I just said I will be teaching a speed lighting class. It doesn't take much brain power to read a manual ;)) Seriously tough. I didn't need someone to explain how all of my strobes and speed lights work using the optical slave when the tt-1 fails on all counts. I know why, it's very simple answer. Because it does! I am sure I can find a strobe that wont work with the optical slave. I haven't tried Broncolor, Profoto, Aurora, Bowens, Elinca, Hensel but I will if you want me to.

[/B]

I think rhetorical is a bit much based on your statement:

Am I lucky on all of them. Yes I have to bump the ISO on some of the weaker ones but the main thing is they all work 100%. Can someone explain my findings. I think Mini TT1 falls short because it does not offer a dummy mode. A mode that does not learn from the preflash,example would be to replicate the first learning shot over and over as a setting, Like moving from C1 to C2 then back to C1 between shots. The TT1 in Hypersync mode shows no banding at a lot of high shutter speeds if the timing is close.

Wanting a dummy mode is exactly what is there in the ControlTL system if you override the automatic settings and set your own to instruct it for what you want it to do. With that, there is no learning required. It is a PIA when you have to sync with multiple different flash sources with each requiring a different sync point or optimisation, but no amount of hacking with your slave cell will solve this as the shutter sync point can be only at one instance. If your lights are different, your results will be too, along with their inefficiency. Not being able to sync TTL with Manual would be a problem for your hack as you have no way of separating the sync signal from the pre-flashes, but you complaining that the PW's won't do this is ill founded as they can.. and with what I have, I have no problems doing this either.

There is no way your HSS hack provides the same that the ControlTL system will. I agree that the ControlTL system is a PIA with it's problems and ever changing solution, but credit where credits due, the one benefit it provides which you have completely overlooked is it's ability to sync with short duration flash units.. not only to 1/500s as you have previously stated that PW's DON'T sync to.. for you, (in your video) but they in fact do so well beyond that if your camera is capable. I tried earlier versions of these and synced up to 1/800s with no loss in flash output which provided me with +1.6 stops of additional flash benefit. Nowhere in your rant - whether on video or here have you come anywhere near that in your HSS hack with optical slave and PW... nowhere.. Your 7D just might be the problem and you won't be able to do this. This isn't a problem with the PW's, it's a problem with your camera. When you build your 'E-ttl hot shoe pass thru with a switch to enter HSS mode' and can enable your 7D to sync at 1/500, 1/640, 1/800s with no loss, and no banding - let us know.

Did you ever try Peak Hypersync and manual setup with your 7D - what did you get?

Why are you doing this HSS hack and what have you achieved in using it, if anything, with your slave cell and studio pack? You have no power output benefit anywhere with this, only a drop in output and the ability to use a wider aperture.. this could be done easier with an ND filter

'Hey I've got a great way to sync at faster shutter speeds - but it robs me of all my output' - thats cool to know, but pretty stupid as well since the losses cancel out any of the benefit.. In the only sample you cite you say you lose output and need to increase ISO. If you can't maintain ratio then your solution provides no benefit and sucks.

FP mode was on the Olympus OM1, 2 versions before you ever tried.. it was on leaf shutters, it was designed into flash bulbs, it's not a mystery, it's just using a flash with a long enough continuous output to illuminate a scene and a different x-sync point in the camera. Most flash units are capable of being utilised to do this, but most are terribly inefficient in how they do it. Of Broncolor, Profoto, Aurora, Bowens, Elinca, Hensel, I can only admit to trying a few of these. Not all models work the same - so you need to check specific models. Only the long tailed versions will work for you, as your slave cell is slow and your triggers are slow, so forget those with short durations as you will miss the output.

Happy to help.

[akfreak]

Thanks, I feel very enlightened now. Much appreciated. Maybe you can write a book to make it easy for everyone to know how everything works and so they will not have any issues, however if they do, I will refer them to your body of work. Cheers, AKf

[AntonLargiader]

... when in the shutter cycle do you think your speedlight is firing, and at what duration, giving you no banding at 1/8000?

Bump. This sounds like something you would know. I'm genuinely curious.

[akfreak]

I'm glad for the GUI, and of course you're right that it is at heart a timer. The shutter does its thing, the flash does its thing, and all you can really affect is the timing of one vs. the other.

As you also said, flash duration is hugely important and a longer duration covers up a variety of timing problems.

So, on timing and duration, when in the shutter cycle do you think your speedlight is firing, and at what duration, giving you no banding at 1/8000?


I have not set up a scope to determine the exact timings, That is not really needed information. All you need to be able to so is change that timing in such a say to avoid banding. With speed lights it is different that pack lights. There are exceptions. You see flash duration is controlled differently depending on the actual unit.

Speed lights use IGBT circuitry and this varies between units of the same make, example not all 580exII's are exactly the same, (slop quotient) ensures not every unit is the same. Also Mono and pack lights use different methods of controlling power and this in turn controls flash duration. Tubes, components, ect... also play a role to determine the the optimum time for the trigger signal to be sent to the flash in order to minimize banding issues as well as optimize the amount of light the sensor sees (the efficiency).

Lots of variables are at work, I just dont need to spend hundreds of dollars and hope I have the right studio lights that fall within the range of the Control Tl System. I want to use what I have on hand and not worry about banding.

High speed photography is a whole different deal. in that world you want ultra fast duration's ( dialed down speed lights are super fast). Control ambient with aperture and stop motion with flash duration. All of the tools are available to each of us. it becomes a matter of what we can afford, and knowing when to select the right tool for the job at hand.

No one system is perfect, one must find balance in anything in life. For me the slave and the ability to put a body in HSS had been great. I plan to continue my quest to build the ,unit I described above. I do not plan to sell them. I just want them for my own use. If a fellow photog wants to have one I am sure I can make that happen. Until then I will use my slave method. The TT1 has gone home where it belongs. I love Pocket wizard, I own 30 or 40 of them. I also have the Fleabay ones. I had love for them all at one time or another, yet the Mini TT1 is the only one I was truly disappointed in and returned. Maybe they will get it dialed in some day but until then, I will pass!

[AntonLargiader]

You don't need a scope to tell when your flash starts firing; the nearest millisecond is good enough. As you reduce the flash power to the absolute minimum, the banding will make it clear where the shutter is.

At minimum power (flash duration somewhere less than 1/5000 second) on any flashgun similar to a Canon one, you'll get banding at 1/8000. There's no way around it; the shutter curtains need somewhere around 1/500 second to cross the sensor so you will get banding at speeds faster than that. Again, this is at lowest flash power only.

I find it pretty hard to believe that after all of that, you don't know when your flash is going off.

[elv]

Anton, you'd be lucky to get a full frame with speedlights at anything below full power. It does happen but its pretty rare (and inconsistent). Akfreak was using full power with the speedlights from what I understand.


On another note, PocketWizard leaked the Plus III the other day (looks like a multimax with LCD and no antenna). That may well have some receiver end hypersync timing as well like the latest TT5 firmware (just to confuse things a little more :-) )

[PhotographersWorldWide]

I find it pretty hard to believe that after all of that, you don't know when your flash is going off.

I agree. That was a very indirect 'shotgun' answer.. lots of words.. none relevant.

You should reconsider your shutter duration of 1/500s or re-examine the source. A shutter duration of that time would provide an x-sync speed up to 1/1000s.. it obviously doesn't, unless you're talking 'each'.

[akfreak]

You don't need a scope to tell when your flash starts firing; the nearest millisecond is good enough. As you reduce the flash power to the absolute minimum, the banding will make it clear where the shutter is.

At minimum power (flash duration somewhere less than 1/5000 second) on any flashgun similar to a Canon one, you'll get banding at 1/8000. There's no way around it; the shutter curtains need somewhere around 1/500 second to cross the sensor so you will get banding at speeds faster than that. Again, this is at lowest flash power only.

I find it pretty hard to believe that after all of that, you don't know when your flash is going off.
I guess I did not understand your question, of course I roughly know when the flash signal takes place. Each camera has variance. Also the time it takes the blades to cross the sensor are a variable as well. I thought you wanted to know exact timings of my specifc camera. Even in your response you say " the shutter curtains need somewhere around 1/500 second to cross the sensor. Is this the exact time or somewhere around the time. When dealing in thousandths of a second timing is everything. This is why one would need a scope to determine the actual timing of the event. Then one could make adjustments to the sub timings to optimize when the actual trigger to the flash goes off. This is what the Control TL system does, however it measures from the first preflash then enters the timing routine you have set via the firmware.


Was the purpose of your question to try ans stump my knowledge and expose me as some kind ignorant person trying to BS his way thru a solution to fix the short comings of the control Tl system.

Again I concede to another GURU that has offered no solution to the problem.. I tell you what I will bow out of this conversation and let all of those who have it all figured out be the ones to buy gear that others make in order to use their cameras in creative ways.

I will just continue to work on my project and one day I will have myself a few units for personal use. Best of luck to all of you, I am dont with this thread. I leave to the gurus of canon flash. Peace!

[AntonLargiader]

You should reconsider your shutter duration of 1/500s or re-examine the source. A shutter duration of that time would provide an x-sync speed up to 1/1000s.. it obviously doesn't, unless you're talking 'each'.

I am talking each. And I don't have a 7D; I have a T2i which AFAIK takes about 2.6ms to get each curtain across the sensor. I assume the 7D is a bit faster as it can sync faster, faster max shutter speed* and has a higher FPS.

I thought you wanted to know exact timings of my specifc camera. Even in your response you say " the shutter curtains need somewhere around 1/500 second to cross the sensor. Is this the exact time or somewhere around the time.

You tell me; you're the one with the 7D. I'm trying to understand why you are getting the results you are.

Flash guru... whatever. I'm not the one teaching this stuff; I'm just asking but I'm not getting any answers.


* edit

[PhotographersWorldWide]

I am talking each. And I don't have a 7D; I have a T2i which AFAIK takes about 2.6ms to get each curtain across the sensor. I assume the 7D is a bit faster as it can sync faster, faster max shutter speed* and has a higher FPS.
* edit

Yeah, 'each', 'both', 'combined', 'shutter duration' can all mean different things.

The simple analogy is if your x-sync is 1/250s, then with your sensor fully exposed it should take another 1/250s for the second curtain to close the exposure of the sensor - making the x-sync @ 1/250s the fastest possible. The total duration is 1/250s for the first shutter to open the sensor, + 1/250s for the second shutter to close it making the duration 1/125s. *Ideally* a flash duration of 1/125s in this case would fit the HSS hack perfectly at the longer 1/250s to 1/650s range without using the tail and losing any output, but a shorter 1/200s flash duration would suit the higher shutter speed range better - particularly closer to the 1/8000s end. At 1/8000s slightly faster flash durations can add exposure benefit over ambient providing you have a fast way of syncing for this.

Of course, x-sync will always be a function of format size and speed of shutter with larger sensors requiring faster shutters to provide equal x-sync.

Contrary to using 'bought hardware' specific for 'just' this purpose.. it is not necessary, but 'faster' will provide you with better results with zero delay being optimum.

[AntonLargiader]

That is the simple analogy but the two biggest 'next steps' are:

1) the published x-sync time is not 'the number'. You probably know that, but the example you used is a published number. My T2i has a published x-sync of 1/200 but the curtain movements don't start to overlap until you get to 1/400 (just barely slower, actually). You'd have to find the real number for your camera, which is part of what I had hoped akfreak might know. The 7D has a published x-sync of 1/250, but there's no reason to think the difference will scale in a linear fashion (and there's every reason to think it won't) hence the vague 'around 1/500' that I suspect it is. Let me take this opportunity to repeat that I don't have a 7D. :)

2) the flash output can be FAR from constant over what is considered its duration. For non-IGBT flashes (including full-power pops on some flashes, where the IGBT isn't employed) the whole idea of duration can be nebulous.

[PhotographersWorldWide]

Strange the previous mention of IGBT as relevant to HSS when it isn't even applied at full output or when the flash is employed to full benefit.. you noticed that too.. and duration again is a figure provided by manufacturers to measure their products against each others with no direct comparisons ever made, with deductions from real world use only proving otherwise.. SB80DX used at full power with a specified duration of 1/1050s providing HSS at 1/8000s.. true, it does, but it shouldn't - just like the SB800'S and SB900's but c. 1/1050s ? There's more to the real 'numbers' than than those you get told about.

Metz chose 1/300s for a wide range of their flashes at full output. Testing with these illustrates favourable results throughout the whole shutter speed range including the HSS hack range up to 1/8000s - far better than any 'speed' light. Sometimes the bigger numbers don't perform as well as their use to impress suggests.

[AntonLargiader]

Here's the stuff that got me started regarding flash duration and IGBT use:

http://www.chem.helsinki.fi/~toomas/photo/flash-discharge/regular.html

It is linked from this page, which mostly illustrates the extent to which no one agrees about flash duration (some of it is technically meaningless):

http://www.rodandcone.com/2008/05/flash-durations-for-canon-580ex-ii-and.html

[elv]

What I take from all this is just that PocketWizard do something in their complex system that actually gives worse results in some cases than the standard tail hack.

For whatever reason even with their timing adjustment it has been the case many times that you just can't get the results of the standard hack. But the other way around is true as well, if you can't get good results with the hack and certain gear, it may well be possible to get a better result with the PW timing adjustment.


So a standard hack device with timing adjustment dial (and no fancy learn mode etc) makes a lot of sense to me. This appears to be more along the lines of what the H-550 does, but even that has a learn mode.

I don't know how you could tell what the specific timing is (without a scope) but its very easy to try a lot of settings with a simple timing dial on the H-550 Tx. (There is no marking on the dial though so going back to your good setting is one of the issues).

PocketWizard have gone to Hypersync, "Automation" which is just manualy adjusted profiles they have set up to get the most out of each gear. Thats should be as good as it gets, but some people are still reporting bad results, in some cases worse than previous firmware.

[AntonLargiader]

Elv,

Along the lines of what you said there, here's the me-specific version of the information that I was trying to get earlier. I think it jives with what you say.

I normally sync to the moment when the first curtain has opened all or nearly all the way. I have -600 adjustment dialed in, with -1600 possible. Theoretically that means that -1600 would flash when the 1st curtain is about 60% open on my camera (the extra 1000 microseconds is about 40% of the 2.6 ms curtain travel time). Actually, I just tried this and it is correct; there is about 40% banding at the top of the image at low flash power, but increasing flash duration covers that up.

With that -1600 timing, the second curtain is just starting to move at 1/640 shutter speed, giving me a hint of banding at the bottom. At 1/800 the banding is noticeable, and at 1/4000 it extends about 45% of the way up the image. Of course, no amount of duration will change that; it's all too late.

So, those are the details for my T2i. With the shutter that it has, it seems I cannot sync to extremely high speeds with the TT1 no matter how long the flash duration. I don't need to, so it doesn't bother me. I'd be happy with 1/640 (or 1/800 with a bit of banding).

I'll contact the PW folks and see if I have this right. It's possible that I have overlooked something.

[akfreak]

What I take from all this is just that PocketWizard do something in their complex system that actually gives worse results in some cases than the standard tail hack.

For whatever reason even with their timing adjustment it has been the case many times that you just can't get the results of the standard hack. But the other way around is true as well, if you can't get good results with the hack and certain gear, it may well be possible to get a better result with the PW timing adjustment.


So a standard hack device with timing adjustment dial (and no fancy learn mode etc) makes a lot of sense to me. This appears to be more along the lines of what the H-550 does, but even that has a learn mode.

I don't know how you could tell what the specific timing is (without a scope) but its very easy to try a lot of settings with a simple timing dial on the H-550 Tx. (There is no marking on the dial though so going back to your good setting is one of the issues).

PocketWizard have gone to Hypersync, "Automation" which is just manualy adjusted profiles they have set up to get the most out of each gear. Thats should be as good as it gets, but some people are still reporting bad results, in some cases worse than previous firmware.

This post is a great summary. Also this is why I am building a device that is a simple TTL pass thru hot shoe that has a dial to control the shutter offset timing and have a switch to enter HSS mode, similar to what the PW does with the Mini TT1.

I dont need any learn mods, I dont need any preflash info, I just want to get control over the timing of the flash trigger signal. When in control I can dial in the timings needed to match various lighting set up's.

The mixing of TTL flash and manual flashes is very valuable if you know how to use it.. I have a 30 foot ttl cord, I find that some times it is nice to adjust speedlights from the camera (ratios, groups, power, ect..) IR works good in in certain situations (indoor, late afternoon, early morning). However during the day the mix of TTL and Radio transmitters work great it is a matter of how you learn to work.

I found a scope on craigslist for $200. I cant wait to pick it up tomorrow. It is going to be great to finnally figure out what input I need to give the camera to see the HSS symbol in the view finder of my 7D.


I have found an awesome open-source electronics prototyping platform to build my timer / ttl pass thru. It is called Arduino, the possibility's are endless so the device I am going to build could be used for all sorts of cool things like Triggering the shutter and strobes for high speed photography (water drops, speeding bullets, anything) . The best thing is I build it, I program it and it will be fun. I can make it do what I want not what else someone thinks I want.

This project is going to be a great challenge for me. I think I am up to it if I fail, this is ok. I will be learning and this is what I am into. I love to learn new stuff, I love to be doing different stuff. Photography has so many avenues to pursue and the tech end is what is exciting me right now.


On a side note, at CES today I was speaking to some of the engineers at Canon and explaining what I was doing and why I was doing it. He said it would not be that hard to have the software guys at Canon to put a interface that allows a person to adjust the timing offset of the flash trigger signal. Much like the how they allow micro tuning of back/front focus issues. How cool would that be? Enter HSS mode and have an on camera flash trigger timing offset menu.That would take a bite in to the Pocketwizard HyperSync business all with a firmware update, but that is just a pipe dream. Getting Canon to do little stuff like that is impossible. How great would that be to have Canon firmware as open source.

Canon did build an awesome camera in the 1DX, I used one today and it is amazing camera. it has a Ethernet jack on the side. The thing is a machine-gun, I plan to do a blog post on it tomorrow. I want to do some video of the camera in action. Ahh the lenses it is a sea of every single lens in the Canon stable. I got to try many of them and want to buy al of them ;)

Also the new Canon G1X is way cool. I sold my G12 and I found the replacement, the little camera has a sensor almost the size as my 7D. It was hard to get within 3 feet of the camera but I have a meeting tomorrow in on of the secret rooms to talk about anything I want from Canon. So the 1DX and the G1X will be the topics of discussion.


A big surprise was from Sigma, I have often not looked twice at siggy glass, however walking by a lens so big I could not look away a 200-500 f2.8 ( 200 grand, what?), it drew me to look closer. I tried out several of the Sigma lenses, the 85mm f1.4 was so so nice and it is less than $969, I tried the 300 2.8 ($3400, fail) was nice but at around 9 meters to AF lock it wasn't to useful to me. The 500 f4.5 was very cool, gear overload is what it was. I cant wait to go back tomorrow to geek out again.