For people in PAL countries

[es1]

Since Canon doesn't want to sell 5D Mark II to video professionals in PAL countries (= most of the world), are you going to wait if they will upgrade the firmware to include 25fps mode or are you waiting Nikon's new model? I just sold my old equipment this month and I'm in good position so I can switch to Nikon if their new model will come before Canon's update (if the update is even coming).

[Super-Nicko]

no

i just shoot and get on with life.... it wasnt advertised ever as 25fps and the exposure controls are something for nothing even if they should have been included in the first place)

[es1]

I wrote "professionals", you can't shoot with this anywhere else than in natural light and you still have to convert the videofrom 30fps to 25fps.

I know Canon didn't advertise this camera as 25fps. So lets hope that PAL version of MK II is coming or then the Nikon.

[tkbslc]

have you actually used it and found it doesn't work? On my NTSC TV I have played back video from various sources at 15fps, 24fps, 29.97fps, 30fps, 60fps and all looked normal. I don't think the framerate is critical.

Also, what kind of "professional" output would you create that would not be edited to your choice of playback medium. I imagine you would edit and output a DVD,blu-ray, youtube, etc, anyway, so this becomes a non-issue.

[Stevie@JC]

I just dont have a clue what you lot are talking about lol

[Jim_T]

I imagine you would edit and output a DVD,blu-ray, youtube, etc, anyway, so this becomes a non-issue.

That's what I'm thinking.... The camera does HD video which isn't supported by PAL or NTSC... Both formats are a step down in quality and as such are on the way out.. (U.S. over the air television no longer broadcasts in NTSC).

[tkbslc]

That's what I'm thinking.... The camera does HD video which isn't supported by PAL or NTSC... Both formats are a step down in quality and as such are on the way out.. (U.S. over the air television no longer broadcasts in NTSC).

DVD players, etc, still output to one or the other, but again, you would have to author the DVD and it would convert to a compliant MPEG-2 format.

[Jim_T]

DVD players, etc, still output to one or the other, but again, you would have to author the DVD and it would convert to a compliant MPEG-2 format.

Most DVD players use HDMI now... (The 5D MKII has HDMI as well).. 50 year old analog formats are rapidly becoming ancient history :)

[tkbslc]

Most DVD players use HDMI now... (The 5D MKII has HDMI as well).. 50 year old analog formats are rapidly becoming ancient history :)

I'm still holding out with my 27" analog TV. :confused:

[es1]

have you actually used it and found it doesn't work?
No since the only option would be to order it, but my colleagues and pretty much everyone in Europe using the camera have. Fact is, you can't film with 30fps without flickering when you use any lighting other than the sun. It's possible to film without much flickering if you only use 1/50 shutter speed, but that makes the camera crippled. Then, after that you have to change the 30fps to 25fps with software and thats no no if you want that your footage stays usable or someone want's to pay for the clips.

This is fact, not only with MK II, it's fact with all video cameras. That's why PAL cameras are not sold in north america and NTSC cameras are not sold in Europe, Asia, Africa etc.

[Michael_Lambert]

So what are you asking? For someone to shoot some video and link it so you can download it and try it on your TV?

[es1]

So what are you asking? For someone to shoot some video and link it so you can download it and try it on your TV?
No? I don't need any clips why do you think I do? I'm asking if people will wait if Canon releases PAL version from MK II or if they are going to buy new Nikon model (which will have 25fps mode) instead.

[tkbslc]

No? I don't need any clips why do you think I do? I'm asking if people will wait if Canon releases PAL version from MK II or if they are going to buy new Nikon model (which will have 25fps mode) instead.

We've already told you why it doesn't matter, so, no, I don't think canon will release a PAL version. All those movies you buy and use on your PAL TV were not shot simultaneously in NTSC and PAL format, so I don't see why it needs to be shot in native fps format. All the "real" HD cameras shoot in 60fps now anyway. How are you going to play those?

[AdamLewis]

I love POTN

[CyberPet]

What's the problem.... really? I filmed a few test films, it played nicely on my computer. If I were to edit the movie files, I just output them to PAL if I need to... although most DVD-players sold now in Europe is multi-lingual and plays both PAL and NTSC.

[Thalagyrt]

You've all completely missed the point... The electrical frequency in most of Europe is a multiple of 25, namely 50 Hz as opposed to our 60 Hz in the US, which is why their video standard is 25 Hz. It wasn't arbitrarily picked, it was necessarily picked. Shooting at 30 frames per second under any 50 Hz light will produce pulsating light due to the moire effect, ESPECIALLY fluorescent lighting, unless they're high speed fluorescent bulbs.

[Saint728]

Since Canon doesn't want to sell 5D Mark II to video professionals in PAL countries (= most of the world), are you going to wait if they will upgrade the firmware to include 25fps mode or are you waiting Nikon's new model? I just sold my old equipment this month and I'm in good position so I can switch to Nikon if their new model will come before Canon's update (if the update is even coming).

It looks like "Most of the World" PAL system is going to get replaced by DVB-T or has already been replaced now. So if that is the case I highly doubt Canon will make one specifically for the PAL system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL Most Countries that will keep PAL are mostly Third World Countries anyway and don't buy high end things like us. I'm sure the majority of 5D Mark II's are sold in the US and some parts of Europe.

You would think if your a video Professional you would be using a professionaly video camera insted of a still camera with video capabilities.

Take Care,
Cheers, Patrick

[es1]

We've already told you why it doesn't matter, so, no, I don't think canon will release a PAL version. All those movies you buy and use on your PAL TV were not shot simultaneously in NTSC and PAL format, so I don't see why it needs to be shot in native fps format.


FYI, film cameras uses cylinderical shutter and video cameras like 5D electronic shutter. Films are shot with 24p too. Electric current is 50Hz in PAL countries and that's why you have to capture the video with 25p or 50i, if not, your video WILL have flickering. If we shoot 25p we can use ALL shutter speeds in the 5D without any flickering since 25p already matches with the 50Hz electric current.

After shot with 30fps and 1/50 shutter speed (the only speed that gives acceptable result), its not option to convert the video from 30fps to 25fps for our TV, DVD palyers etc if you are working in professional production. Without the conversion 30fps video is not smooth (don't know the correct english word).

So, the 5D is crippled and no good for PAL countries if you plan to shoot HD with it.

[es1]

It looks like "Most of the World" PAL system is going to get replaced by DVB-T or has already been replaced now.
By PAL country I meant countries that are using electric current of 50Hz. Once again a poster who have no idea about this problem.

[ScullenCrossBones]

Then how does 24fps work in 60HZ countries?

[Waldemar Sikorski]

What kind of shutter is 5dmk2 currently using? Rolling or global? http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

[Saint728]

By PAL country I meant countries that are using electric current of 50Hz. Once again a poster who have no idea about this problem.

Big deal, I lived in Australia and they have 50Hz. I moved, problem solved. You should be more specific when you make a thread, don't generalize. Go cry to someone else and buy a Nikon. See ya.

Take Care,
Cheers, Patrick

[Thalagyrt]

Then how does 24fps work in 60HZ countries?

Long shutter speeds work fine. It's fast shutter speeds that cause problems.

[neil_r]

I wanted pro spec video ........ so I bought a Pro Spec Video Camera.

I like to keep my life simple :-)

[es1]

Here are sample for people who don't know why there's framerate differences in PAL (50Hz) and NTSC (60Hz) zones: http://www.vimeo.com/4991966

As you can see in this video, you can't even shoot in the daylight if there are any "light signs" in the screen: http://www.vimeo.com/2569591

[tkbslc]

Here are sample for people who don't know why there's framerate differences in PAL (50Hz) and NTSC (60Hz) zones: http://www.vimeo.com/4991966

As you can see in this video, you can't even shoot in the daylight if there are any "light signs" in the screen: http://www.vimeo.com/2569591

I actually did not know that. I was speaking more from a playback and format conversion standpoint earlier. I was unaware of the flickering effects. That kinda sucks. I would be hoping for a firmware update for 25fps if I were you, too.

[Skip Souza]

Alright children, everyone play nice and stop running with the scissors on the playground or it will remain closed. Those who fail to heed the warning will be placed in the corner for a time out.

[apersson850]

I was unaware of the flickering effects. That kinda sucks. I would be hoping for a firmware update for 25fps if I were you, too.Now you and hopefully everybody else here have understood the problem. So now the main question remains: Anyone thinking there will be a useful 5D Mark II video implementation in the near future?

Don't forget that the population/possible market within the European Union alone is 60% larger than the USA. The whole of Europe has almost 150% more people than the US.

[basroil]

Now you and hopefully everybody else here have understood the problem. So now the main question remains: Anyone thinking there will be a useful 5D Mark II video implementation in the near future?

Don't forget that the population/possible market within the European Union alone is 60% larger than the USA. The whole of Europe has almost 150% more people than the US.
While the population IS larger, in general that is not how companies target markets. Of the giant population, a much smaller percentage of people have the ability to purchase a 5dmkii unless it is for work, and if the company needs HD video, they are likely to purchase other options.

Ignoring europe for a while, Canon is based in Japan, and half of japan is lit by 50Hz power grid. Yet, they have always used NTSC without any problems. As such, and the vimeo link above show, the 50hz issue is not a large one at all, simply shooting at 1/50 or 1/100 indoors will solve the issue. Both NTSC and PAL users will have to convert the 1080p 30fps video to 480p or 576p 29.97 or 25 for dvd. If you don't convert it to dvd, just shoot 1/50 or 1/100 and don't complain, the folks over in the US have to shoot at multiples of 1/30 just like europe shoots 1/50. If the Japanese company that made the camera is in a 50Hz region and decided 30.00fps was perfectly useable, then they probably know a bit more about video than 99% of the users here.

[Thalagyrt]

While the population IS larger, in general that is not how companies target markets. Of the giant population, a much smaller percentage of people have the ability to purchase a 5dmkii unless it is for work, and if the company needs HD video, they are likely to purchase other options.

Ignoring europe for a while, Canon is based in Japan, and half of japan is lit by 50Hz power grid. Yet, they have always used NTSC without any problems. As such, and the vimeo link above show, the 50hz issue is not a large one at all, simply shooting at 1/50 or 1/100 indoors will solve the issue. Both NTSC and PAL users will have to convert the 1080p 30fps video to 480p or 576p 29.97 or 25 for dvd. If you don't convert it to dvd, just shoot 1/50 or 1/100 and don't complain, the folks over in the US have to shoot at multiples of 1/30 just like europe shoots 1/50. If the Japanese company that made the camera is in a 50Hz region and decided 30.00fps was perfectly useable, then they probably know a bit more about video than 99% of the users here.

No, it doesn't quite work like that. If you're shooting at 30 FPS in a 60 Hz power zone it doesn't matter what shutter speed you're using, you will not see that type of pulsating. Try it. Try it at every shutter speed you can imagine. You won't see that result. This isn't a matter of output formats, it's a matter of the input being screwy due to everything being out of phase. The shutter speed has nothing to do with it being out of phase, it just happens that using certain shutter speeds lower how pronounced the effect is. It's still there, period. The same thing happens with NTSC in 60 Hz areas actually, though because the NTSC period is 29.97 Hz (almost perfectly in phase) the pulsation period is so long that you will pretty much never notice it.

[CyberPet]

Flickering? In what type of light are you guys shooting in? Sounds like the age old problem any video has with flickering in different type of lights (more and more common now that many countries are banning regular volfram lightbulbs).

[es1]

Flickering? In what type of light are you guys shooting in? Sounds like the age old problem any video has with flickering in different type of lights (more and more common now that many countries are banning regular volfram lightbulbs).
Any light.

Watch these videos I posted earlier:

http://www.vimeo.com/4991966
http://www.vimeo.com/2569591

[es1]

While the population IS larger, in general that is not how companies target markets. Of the giant population, a much smaller percentage of people have the ability to purchase a 5dmkii unless it is for work, and if the company needs HD video, they are likely to purchase other options.
PAL market is still way bigger than NTSC and there are more potential buyers. But this is just not PAL countries, SECAM countries are using 50Hz electric current too.

So all countries marked as blue AND orange are countries where you need to use 25fps while fliming:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg

As such, and the vimeo link above show, the 50hz issue is not a large one at all, simply shooting at 1/50 or 1/100 indoors will solve the issue. Both NTSC and PAL users will have to convert the 1080p 30fps video to 480p or 576p 29.97 or 25 for dvd. If you don't convert it to dvd, just shoot 1/50 or 1/100 and don't complain, the folks over in the US have to shoot at multiples of 1/30 just like europe shoots 1/50. If the Japanese company that made the camera is in a 50Hz region and decided 30.00fps was perfectly useable, then they probably know a bit more about video than 99% of the users here.
No. You can shoot with any shutter speed in country using 60Hz electric current if you use 30fps. You can shoot with any shutter speed in all 50Hz countries if you use 25fps. That's why all "real" video cameras are sold as 25fps in 50Hz countries and 30fps in countires using 60Hz.

[john-in-japan]

:lol:I have the solution.
Order 50Hz batteries or 60Hz batteries.
John:p

[Thalagyrt]

:lol:I have the solution.
Order 50Hz batteries or 60Hz batteries.
John:p

I didn't know it was possible to produce an AC battery. ;)

[CyberPet]

Any light.

Watch these videos I posted earlier:

http://www.vimeo.com/4991966
http://www.vimeo.com/2569591

1st video looks like a low energy lamp... very similar to fluorescent light, and from what I can gather, so is the second video. So... that has nothing to do with PAL, it's the "magic" of light... almost like when you shoot a tv-screen with certain shutter speeds.

[es1]

1st video looks like a low energy lamp...
how about you look the whole video?

[CyberPet]

how about you look the whole video?

I tried... I'm on a slow mobile modem right now, but the preview image shows a low energy lamp, and I know those flicker.

[Thalagyrt]

1st video looks like a low energy lamp... very similar to fluorescent light, and from what I can gather, so is the second video. So... that has nothing to do with PAL, it's the "magic" of light... almost like when you shoot a tv-screen with certain shutter speeds.

There's no magic involved, and that light flickering is not visible to the human eye. This is what's happening: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference

30 Hz / 50 Hz cyclical interference.

Edit: More specifically, in one dimension (time) a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern

[es1]

I tried... I'm on a slow mobile modem right now, but the preview image shows a low energy lamp, and I know those flicker.
They don't flicker if you shoot with 25p. There are 12 different lamps in that video. and it's not like it only flickers when you shoot directly the lamps, all lights are flickering (= the whole image) even if you don't point the camera to the lamp. Pointels to comment this since you didn't even watch the video and don't understand the problem.

[john-in-japan]

I was er...ah... just joking about 50Hz and 60Hz batteries.
No such thing...
John

[Thalagyrt]

I was er...ah... just joking about 50Hz and 60Hz batteries.
No such thing...
John

Haha :p

[AJSJones]

Reminds me of - only available for PCs - those with Macs will have to do without :D
(Or move!)

[basroil]

PAL market is still way bigger than NTSC and there are more potential buyers. But this is just not PAL countries, SECAM countries are using 50Hz electric current too.

So all countries marked as blue AND orange are countries where you need to use 25fps while fliming:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg


No. You can shoot with any shutter speed in country using 60Hz electric current if you use 30fps. You can shoot with any shutter speed in all 50Hz countries if you use 25fps. That's why all "real" video cameras are sold as 25fps in 50Hz countries and 30fps in countires using 60Hz.

You're right for the for those reasons, but only if you care about flickering and not WB shifts. Yes, you won't get flickering with non-continuous lights (arc lamps, etc, but not incandescents), but that's because you get the same section of exposure. In modern era lighting though, fluorescent lights are everywhere, and using anything other than 1/30 or 1/60 will cause problems anyway. Each and every fluorescent has it's own balast (unless it's an expensive setup), and depending on how many different lights there are, you could have a dozen different phases at the same time (not all balasts are built equally, very few can avoid this problem, and the ones that do also avoid flicker). Step to the right, your subject turns green, step to the left, it becomes pink, no matter what you get screwed because of the change in phase due to the balast. Not the biggest deal to many, but if you seriously plan on using this camera for cinematic shots, you might as well set up proper continuous lighting anyway. If not a bit of light flickering or WB shift is fine and will be made less noticeable after conversion to 25fps anyway.


EDIT:
I was er...ah... just joking about 50Hz and 60Hz batteries.
No such thing...
John
There is, it's called a battery with an alternator. You see them all the time, including as the external battery pack for Alienbees and your computer's UPS. And theoretically you could make a superconducting coil "battery", but that's just not practical currently, nor has anyone been stupid enough to waste money and time trying it.

[Hand_of_Cod]

They don't flicker if you shoot with 25p. There are 12 different lamps in that video. and it's not like it only flickers when you shoot directly the lamps, all lights are flickering (= the whole image) even if you don't point the camera to the lamp. Pointels to comment this since you didn't even watch the video and don't understand the problem.

Mate you are posting a thread requesting opinions and then getting dismissive about the responses. They are only trying to help you out which is the POTN way (if I can be so bold as represent POTD having myself joined only a month or so ago).

Since you've just joined the forum let me say welcome! But let's try to be a bit more welcoming in return?

To your original post - wouldn't the PAL vs NTSC problem only be exhibited on a PAL or NTSC display? Computer monitors are neither format being VGA or some other digital format. A good test would be to record the results of such a display (but very hard to do succinctly).

[Super-Nicko]

Mate you are posting a thread requesting opinions and then getting dismissive about the responses. They are only trying to help you out which is the POTN way (if I can be so bold as represent POTD having myself joined only a month or so ago).

Since you've just joined the forum let me say welcome! But let's try to be a bit more welcoming in return?

To your original post - wouldn't the PAL vs NTSC problem only be exhibited on a PAL or NTSC display? Computer monitors are neither format being VGA or some other digital format. A good test would be to record the results of such a display (but very hard to do succinctly).

I get the posters point now... but this being camera section of a DSLR forum, i guess 95% of us wont encounter or realise this problem (being focussed on stills and the occasional video)

The Digital Video section of the forum might get more the response and like minded folk but for the most of us - flickering and phase issues are usually seen indoors when shooting stills under fluro lights..

no pis$ take meant... just that your referring to top of the wazza style prosuction that i guess alot of us dont do...

[farkwhar]

I just dont have a clue what you lot are talking about lol
Then you can come back here and sit with me cause I don't either. Think I'm in the wrong room. lol

[Stealthy Ninja]

I only shoot 1/50 anyway. 1/25 stutters too much to be useful IMHO (Talking about using a PAL XL2). I'd rather up the gain (that's video talk for "high iso") than have stuttering video.

Since 1/50 works under the lights in the OPs video. I personally don't have a problem with the 5Dmkii being NTSC.

Yes, I'm in one of the blue countries. ;)

[apersson850]

Whether you display such a video on a PAL or NTSC screen doesn't matter. Once the recording is with different light levels in different individual images, due to interference, it will show regardless of which format you use for playback. If you convert a 30 frames/s movie to 25 frames/s, but the original movie is shot under different lighting conditions, you do expect these conditions to remain in the converted video, don't you? Then it doesn't matter if they originate from clouds blocking the sun or interference with artificial lighting.

[es1]

Mate you are posting a thread requesting opinions and then getting dismissive about the responses. They are only trying to help you out which is the POTN way (if I can be so bold as represent POTD having myself joined only a month or so ago).

Since you've just joined the forum let me say welcome! But let's try to be a bit more welcoming in return?
well, it's just little stupid to comment about the video that I posted if you don't even watch it, don't you think?

To your original post - wouldn't the PAL vs NTSC problem only be exhibited on a PAL or NTSC display? Computer monitors are neither format being VGA or some other digital format. A good test would be to record the results of such a display (but very hard to do succinctly).
No. The flickering is recorded and it's there no matter what screen you are using to watch the material, computer, PAL, NTSC etc.

[Thalagyrt]

You're right for the for those reasons, but only if you care about flickering and not WB shifts. Yes, you won't get flickering with non-continuous lights (arc lamps, etc, but not incandescents), but that's because you get the same section of exposure. In modern era lighting though, fluorescent lights are everywhere, and using anything other than 1/30 or 1/60 will cause problems anyway. Each and every fluorescent has it's own balast (unless it's an expensive setup), and depending on how many different lights there are, you could have a dozen different phases at the same time (not all balasts are built equally, very few can avoid this problem, and the ones that do also avoid flicker). Step to the right, your subject turns green, step to the left, it becomes pink, no matter what you get screwed because of the change in phase due to the balast. Not the biggest deal to many, but if you seriously plan on using this camera for cinematic shots, you might as well set up proper continuous lighting anyway. If not a bit of light flickering or WB shift is fine and will be made less noticeable after conversion to 25fps anyway.


EDIT:

There is, it's called a battery with an alternator. You see them all the time, including as the external battery pack for Alienbees and your computer's UPS. And theoretically you could make a superconducting coil "battery", but that's just not practical currently, nor has anyone been stupid enough to waste money and time trying it.

Modern fluorescent lights alternate at around 3000 Hz as opposed to 50 or 60, so that flickering won't be a big issue in the future once most of them are replaced. Those are already common. Also, that battery is still a DC battery. The alternator is just a separate piece of hardware. It's also extremely inefficient, as a considerable amount of energy gets dissipated as heat.

[basroil]

Modern fluorescent lights alternate at around 3000 Hz as opposed to 50 or 60, so that flickering won't be a big issue in the future once most of them are replaced. Those are already common. Also, that battery is still a DC battery. The alternator is just a separate piece of hardware. It's also extremely inefficient, as a considerable amount of energy gets dissipated as heat.

Of course to both, but some people decided they needed to make a big deal out of something, namely older fluorescent lighting since they are still used in many office building settings, and replacing those ballasts is expensive. If they didn't live in a place with problematic lights, they wouldn't complain so much so might as give them one less reason to say that the 30fps thing is "a big deal";). And the alternator is separate, but usually housed in the same unit, so it's like the chipped battery in the 5d. But man they are inefficient, especially since they usually run off of 12V lead acid batteries and get transformed to 117V or 220V

[CyberPet]

OK, I still don't get this.... the monitors on our computers aren't PAL vs NTSC, or the video we're seeing online, on YouTube or Vimeo.... as the difference is the broacasting on television.

I don't get this people, explain to me why this would matter at all.... the only reason I can see it matter is that the frames per seconds, regardless in what country you're in, would cause the same interference you see when you try to photograph a tv set and get a banding if you don't use the right shutter speed.

[tkbslc]

OK, I still don't get this.... the monitors on our computers aren't PAL vs NTSC, or the video we're seeing online, on YouTube or Vimeo.... as the difference is the broacasting on television.

I don't get this people, explain to me why this would matter at all.... the only reason I can see it matter is that the frames per seconds, regardless in what country you're in, would cause the same interference you see when you try to photograph a tv set and get a banding if you don't use the right shutter speed.

I didn't get it either and was trying to argue the same thing. But did you look at the videos that were linked to? Apparently any lights will flicker massively at 30fps in countries with 50hz electicity AC. It was pretty bad and annoying.

[CyberPet]

I didn't get it either and was trying to argue the same thing. But did you look at the videos that were linked to? Apparently any lights will flicker massively at 30fps in countries with 50hz electicity AC. It was pretty bad and annoying.

But that can't have anything to do with PAL vs NTCS in that case, it has to do with the 230V current or something similar.

[Thalagyrt]

PAL is 25 FPS because it's a factor of the cyclical speed of the electric grid in the countries that use it. NTSC is 30 FPS for the same reason. Everyone here should know as photographers what the moire interference pattern is - this very similar, but in one dimension. What you're seeing is two fluctuations being out of phase, that of the camera, and that of the lighting. If the camera were capturing at 25 Hz, it would catch the 50 Hz lights at the same state in every frame, and as such they wouldn't flicker. Note that I say capturing, converting won't fix this as that's after the fact. It just so happens that a 1/50 shutter speed helps mitigate the problem. Likewise in NTSC (60 Hz grid) countries, try capturing video of one of those bulbs at anything other than a multiple of 30 FPS and you'll see very similar artifacting.

PAL was designed to be 25 Hz because of the electrical grid, likewise with NTSC. They're directly related, not just some coincidence.

Note that I'm using Hz to measure the framerate. That's what Hz is. */second. In this case frames. The interference (flickering that you see) in this case is caused by 50 Hz and 30 Hz not being in phase with each other.

I don't think I can spell this out more clearly, I've already spelled it out four times now.

Edit: I have to go for a quick drive but when I get back I'll post some graphs of the actual waveforms involved to show why this happens and also explain why shooting at 1/50th mitigates the problem of shooting 30 FPS in 50 Hz light.

[plainlazy]

On my camera (50D) in the menu there is the ability to change from pal to ntsc. Does this not sort out the problem?
On a PS camera I bought in the USA ( live in UK) I couldn`t use live veiw on it untill I changed the default setting to PAL.

[Pekka]

Moved to Digital Video forum.

[Thalagyrt]

On my camera (50D) in the menu there is the ability to change from pal to ntsc. Does this not sort out the problem?
On a PS camera I bought in the USA ( live in UK) I couldn`t use live veiw on it untill I changed the default setting to PAL.

That's for playback and live view, not really related to this discussion but somewhat related, but that is the reason that live view was wonky (I'm assuming you saw flickering?) before you switched it to PAL.

[Thalagyrt]

http://www.thalagyrt.com/files/phase.gif

Blue = 50 Hz sine wave (Electric grid, the light's current location in its cycle! THIS relates to its brightness)
Red lines = 30 Hz - your camera starts capturing a frame here when shooting at 30 FPS.
Pink spots = 1/50th of a second shutter speed.

As you can see here, at 30 FPS on a 50 Hz grid the point that the light is at in its cycle is different from frame to frame. This is not the case on a 60 Hz grid. The reason that 1/50th of a second as your shutter works is because it allows the light to complete two full cycles, which is on/off/on/off. This is also why 1/100 works, it allows it to complete one full cycle of on/off. Since you're not starting at the same point in the cycle each time, as shown by the intersections of the frames and the grid, if you're shooting at a different shutter speed you'll be capturing different amounts of light each frame.

http://www.thalagyrt.com/files/phase2.gif

Note how the frame lines up perfectly with the grid cycle. In this case it doesn't matter what the shutter speed is as you're capturing the same part of the light's cycle each time.

Does this clear it up a bit? I oversimplified it but at least this should get the general idea across.

[Thalagyrt]

For people in 50 Hz areas: Keep your eyes on this. Hacked firmware for the 5D II, it'll likely enable shooting at other frame rates in the future, alleviating this problem.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki

[basroil]

Edit: I have to go for a quick drive but when I get back I'll post some graphs of the actual waveforms involved to show why this happens and also explain why shooting at 1/50th mitigates the problem of shooting 30 FPS in 50 Hz light.

Wrong choice of words there, by definition
Main Entry:mit·i·gate http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mitiga01.wav=mitigate%27)Pronunciation: \ˈmi-tə-ˌgāt\ Function:transitive verb Inflected Form(s):mit·i·gat·ed; mit·i·gat·ingEtymology:Middle English, from Latin mitigatus, past participle of mitigare to soften, from mitis soft + -igare (akin to Latin agere to drive); akin to Old Irish moíth soft — more at agent (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agent)Date:15th century 1: to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mollify) <aggressiveness may be mitigated or…channeled — Ashley Montagu>2 a: to make less severe or painful : alleviate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alleviate) b: extenuate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extenuate)

1/25 (yes, it's impossible to have 1/25 for 30fps)and 1/50 in 50hz RESOLVE the problem, not mitigate it (1/100 mitigates the problem, as does 1/200, though 1/200 mitigates it poorly). 24p in 50Hz zone mitigates the problems NTSC would have, as does 30*1/1.001 of NTSC in a 60Hz place. If you aren't bothered about shooting 1/50 or 1/100 (which lets you use lower ISOs indoors, and doesn't give you too many blur problems on PAL anyway), then the problem is RESOLVED.

For people in 50 Hz areas: Keep your eyes on this. Hacked firmware for the 5D II, it'll likely enable shooting at other frame rates in the future, alleviating this problem.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki

It hopefully will give some other options, if they get PAL I'm sure there'll be a 24p mode for movie fans too. Which brings us back, if movies shoot 24p anyway, and there is no 48Hz place to begin with, how do they go about shooting in Times Square or Shibuya (or any other place with a lot of lights refreshing as the same speed as a television in the country) without flicker? Insistance on 25fps just to get WB errors but no flicker is quite unintelligible

EDIT: Thalagyrt, they are valid, but also pointless, because they validate that 1/50 will solve all flicker problems in PAL countries until Canon or someone else releases a firmware that allows you to shoot 25fps naively.

[Thalagyrt]

So I chose the wrong word for one case. Big deal. My explanation and my graphs are still valid. ;)

[es1]

For people in 50 Hz areas: Keep your eyes on this. Hacked firmware for the 5D II, it'll likely enable shooting at other frame rates in the future, alleviating this problem.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki

Yes that looks promising, but it scares me to install 3rd part drivers to 2500€ camera because with bad luck it can destroy the whole thing lol :p

[mentospure]

Thalagyrt have you studied physics ?

Very systematical explanation. If you want i can also explain further.

Back on subject. So if you are in a 50Hz country, (which i believe is all of the world except USA and Japan) we are restricted to using the higher iso's of the 5d2 with a permanent 1/50 shutter speed.

Canon should fix this problem. I mean this is a preference to USA rather than the rest of the world. Such a software problem is one of the main reasons I am not currently going to buy this camera. At the moment I would rather stay with my 450D and get a seperate high def video camera.

The 5d2 has great potential from what I have seen. Its a "RED on a budget".
What camera can u attach all kinds of Canon L lenses?? Bokeh, selective focusing and crisp video's galore.!

Please fix canon!

[mentospure]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/WorldMap_Voltage%26Frequency.png


Image courtesy of Wikipedia showing Frequency in mains.

[Thalagyrt]

Thalagyrt have you studied physics ?

Very systematical explanation. If you want i can also explain further.

Back on subject. So if you are in a 50Hz country, (which i believe is all of the world except USA and Japan) we are restricted to using the higher iso's of the 5d2 with a permanent 1/50 shutter speed.

Canon should fix this problem. I mean this is a preference to USA rather than the rest of the world. Such a software problem is one of the main reasons I am not currently going to buy this camera. At the moment I would rather stay with my 450D and get a seperate high def video camera.

The 5d2 has great potential from what I have seen. Its a "RED on a budget".
What camera can u attach all kinds of Canon L lenses?? Bokeh, selective focusing and crisp video's galore.!

Please fix canon!

Close! Computer engineering. I'm a programmer by trade which makes me pretty analytical, haha. If you have a way to clarify it any more than I have go ahead. :)

[basroil]

Back on subject. So if you are in a 50Hz country, (which i believe is all of the world except USA and Japan) we are restricted to using the higher iso's of the 5d2 with a permanent 1/50 shutter speed.


Actually, lower ISO in most cases. In video, having the shutter speed equal the framerate is usually not the best option, it leads to blurring, which can cause some people to see ghosting. Rather than using 1/200 or faster, you're forced to use 1/50 or 1/100, so you need to drop your ISO one or two stops, or stop down a bit. Rarely will you need 1/30 ISO1600 f2.8 on your 2.8 lens (this equates to a small room lit by a dozen candles or so), so you won't really find too many reasons for 1/50 iso1600 f2.8 (and if it really is a room lit by candles, don't worry, candles look as good at 60Hz as 50Hz ;))

And Japan is half and half, Kanto and beyond is 50Hz, Kansai and beyond is 60Hz, yet they use NTSC anyway, yet you never hear them complain about flicker.

[Thalagyrt]

Using it for broadcast and for recording are two different things. Sure they broadcast NTSC, but I'd be willing to bet a fairly decent amount that the pros shoot at 25 FPS when they're in Kanto and beyond and 30 when in Kensai and beyond. ;)

[es1]

[quote=basroil;8162010
And Japan is half and half, Kanto and beyond is 50Hz, Kansai and beyond is 60Hz, yet they use NTSC anyway, yet you never hear them complain about flicker.[/quote]
They are not shooting 30fps in 50Hz area that is a fact.