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Mark_Cohran
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 10:07
I had an interesting exchange with a model whose ad I noticed on Craig's List yesterday. I usually don't contact via such ads, but this model's description close matched a look I was seeking for one of my projects. I thought I would post a redacted copy of the exchange here and get you guys thoughts. Is there a way to handle this better?

My initial message:

Hi,

I saw your ad on Craig’s List and I thought I’d contact you about a number of projects I’m working on to see if you might be interested in any of them. You can read about them here:

http://www.provocativephoto.com/modeling/projects.shtml

If you’re interested, let me know and we can set up an interview.

Mark

Her response:

HI,
as long as these photos are not nude I would love to set up an interview.... please email my manager @-------@gmail.com and see when my schedule will be open. He is going out of town for a few weeks so it wouldnt be until he comes home. Thank you and hope to hear from you soon .

Note that the "manager" is going to be gone for a few weeks.

My reply:

Doesn’t seem like we’d be a good match, then. Good luck with your ad.

Mark

I thought that would be the end of it, but then I got a new response a bit later:

Are all your photos nudes?

Well, no they aren't, but I thought the link described pretty much what I was looking for in the projects. My response was simple:

No, not all, but I don’t deal with “managers” or “agents.” Sorry,

Mark

Once again, I thought that would be the end of it. Then I got this:

What do you deal with then?

So, I decided I would be a little more detailed about what I'm thinking at this point:

I’m not trying to be difficult or rude, but here is how I see the situation:

1. You placed an ad offering your services as an aspiring model. Aspiring means you “aspire” or desire strongly to be a model, and you’re working diligently on that dream.
2. When I contacted you about modeling, given the address in the ad, you tell me you don’t do nude images, which I can understand as a limitation, but as an “aspiring” model you’re not going to get very far with those kinds of limits.
3. Additionally, instead of scheduling me yourself, you refer me to a third party and then tell me that he’s going to be gone for a few weeks.

When I seek a model, I am trying to find a person that is eager, creative, willing to work and collaborate with me to produce images that we will both be proud of and from which we’ll both profit for the time invested in the project. Which is why I include a link to my projects in the contact message. While not all of my images include nudity, it is a fair amount of my work (especially my current primary project). Models that have modesty issues are just too difficult to work with for me.

I work with several of new models every year, and I simply don’t have time for limitations, redirection, and weeks of waiting. That's simply me, and most other real photographers. If you truly aspire to be a model, I do hope you have better luck with your ad with other photographers.

Regards,

Mark

The last response I received was simply this:

Your rude

So, I just have to laugh and say "never again." Anyone else have similar exchanges? How did or how would you handle something like this?

Zoodles
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 10:15
No, not similar - but MM is also legendary for exposure to flakes... ;)

stathunter
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 10:19
I do not want to seem rude but I have found a LARGE number of "models" to be less than professional.

hawk911
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 11:41
I don't find the exchange to be rude, but why does every model or photog have to shoot nude to make it? there are plenty of models that could/would/and do lots of promo work that doesn't involve nudity.

off the soap box.....

Mark_Cohran
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 12:14
I don't find the exchange to be rude, but why does every model or photog have to shoot nude to make it? there are plenty of models that could/would/and do lots of promo work that doesn't involve nudity.

off the soap box.....

They don't if they're primarily going into catalog and stock, but it's been my experience that models that place such strict limitations on their images don't get the same amount of work and (excuse the unintended pun) exposure as models who are willing to do nude or at least implied nude work. That's just my personal experience.

hawk911
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 17:55
I don't have enough experience, so I can't comment. Thanks for the insight though 8-)

Kagemaru
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 18:38
They don't if they're primarily going into catalog and stock, but it's been my experience that models that place such strict limitations on their images don't get the same amount of work and (excuse the unintended pun) exposure as models who are willing to do nude or at least implied nude work. That's just my personal experience.

What kind of models are you referring too?

I work and am personal friends with many aspiring and working models that get paid plenty well without taking their clothes off.

Mark_Cohran
24th of June 2009 (Wed), 18:54
What kind of models are you referring too?

I work and am personal friends with many aspiring and working models that get paid plenty well without taking their clothes off.

I generally work in the glamour and fine art communities. As I said, that's my experience. Obviously yours is different.

hawk911
25th of June 2009 (Thu), 07:54
well, that kind of explains it, right? those 2 genres do require a bit more skin showing.

AxxisPhoto
25th of June 2009 (Thu), 09:55
That's funny, but not just on CL. You'll get the same kind of replies on MM and OMP. Although I have worked with decent models from CL.

Mark_Cohran
25th of June 2009 (Thu), 10:15
That's funny, but not just on CL. You'll get the same kind of replies on MM and OMP. Although I have worked with decent models from CL.

I've never really had this kind of an issue with MM or OMP. Yes, you get the flakes that cancel at the last minute or no show, but generally they don't cop attitudes (at least they haven't for me).

With regard to the person above, they did advertise that they were available for glamour photography. I tried to bow out gracefully after they indicated their limitations, but she just wouldn't let me, In retrospect, I probably should have responded after I indicated we wouldn't be a good match.

sspellman
25th of June 2009 (Thu), 12:30
Mark-

While you may choose to work with models who do glamour and nudes, I don't believe at all that not doing nudes is a career hinderance. In my market, it is the opposite where models who do nudes do not get fashion or commercial work.

Obviously, your projecs and her modeling are just not a good a match. But I don't criticize a model's aspirations or professionalism just based on my personal requirements or experience. I assume that there are many paths to success in modeling, and I am not the only expert.

-Scott

Mark_Cohran
25th of June 2009 (Thu), 15:09
I can see where a lot of you are coming from and to some extent, I agree with you. Models can absolutely have a part-time or full-time career without doing nudes. On the other hand, I do think a model that is willing to do nudes, implied or otherwise, will have more, but not necessarily better, modeling opportunities.

Were I able to do it over again, I would reword my message to read like this:

I’m not trying to be difficult or rude, but here is how I see the situation:

1. You placed an ad offering your services as an aspiring model. Aspiring means you “aspire” or desire strongly to be a model, and you’re working diligently on that dream.
2. When I contacted you about modeling, given the address in the ad, you tell me you don’t do nude images, which I can understand as a limitation, but as you can see from my project list, that is primarily what I'm looking for in a model and therefore, we're not a good match.
3. Additionally, instead of scheduling with me for an interview, you refer me to a third party and then tell me that he’s going to be gone for a few weeks. That leaves me wondering when I can actually schedule you for a shoot.

When I seek a model, I am trying to find a person that is eager, creative, willing to work and collaborate with me to produce images that we will both be proud of and from which we’ll both profit for the time invested in the project. Which is why I include a link to my projects in the contact message. While not all of my images include nudity, it is a fair amount of my work (especially my current primary project).
Once again, that makes us not a good match.

I work with several of new models every year, and I simply don’t have time for limitations not within the scope of my project, redirection to outside agents, and weeks of waiting. That's simply me, and most other real photographers.

If you truly aspire to be a model, I do hope you have better luck with your ad with other photographers.

Regards,

Mark

The fact that she doesn't do nude work isn't what I had an issue with, really, but rather the whole concept that she couldn't take my word for it that we weren't a good match and the fact that she wanted me to contact an agent that was going to be away for "a few weeks."

hawk911
25th of June 2009 (Thu), 20:39
maybe it could have been as short and sweet as: I'm sorry, I need to schedule someone sooner than a few weeks from now. Good luck with your modeling. Not quite sure why you have to justify the type of work you do.

slivr
26th of June 2009 (Fri), 14:44
I think your final response to the model seemed a bit lengthy and attempted to talk down to her because her position irritated you. While I don't think your position and logic is wrong ... I see little reason to try and convince a model of something who just doesn't "get it". She seems like just another hopeful out there that would have too many demands and/or constraints to let you fulfill your artistic vision - and I'd have moved on with a polite response to prevent any animosity or flaming. Perhaps something like "Unfortunately that timing doesn't work out for this particular project but if I have an upcoming project that fits your look and criteria I'll contact you again. Thanks and best wishes." Getting into a pissing contest over your respective positions doesn't serve anybody's interest.

I've never contacted models thru Craigslist (would that be under "erotic services" for a nude photoshoot? LOL). But my experiences on Model Mayhem have been just as frustrating at times with flaky models. It's so easy to move on and pair up with someone else you can establish trust and rapport with, but I don't get snarky with those others. I just don't return to them again ... particularly if they cancelled within 48 hours of the shoot.

neil_r
26th of June 2009 (Fri), 14:51
Mark, that is both interesting and strange, but I really want to post to congratulate you for being the first person I know who has used the word Redacted. I only came across it for the first time two weeks ago.

AxxisPhoto
28th of June 2009 (Sun), 18:44
I've never really had this kind of an issue with MM or OMP. Yes, you get the flakes that cancel at the last minute or no show, but generally they don't cop attitudes (at least they haven't for me).

With regard to the person above, they did advertise that they were available for glamour photography. I tried to bow out gracefully after they indicated their limitations, but she just wouldn't let me, In retrospect, I probably should have responded after I indicated we wouldn't be a good match.

True. I should have said that on MM and OMP I get flakes, but never an attitude.:lol:

ladywiththecam
29th of June 2009 (Mon), 03:42
I definitely think the model reacted in a very strange way, but on the other hand I wouldn't consider what you said as appropriate either: ][/I]
2. When I contacted you about modeling, given the address in the ad, you tell me you don’t do nude images, which I can understand as a limitation, but as an “aspiring” model you’re not going to get very far with those kinds of limits.
Why shouldn't an aspiring model not get far without taking her clothes off? Don't consider that as fair from your part!
Other than that I think the whole conversation was strange from her side!

Stirfried
30th of June 2009 (Tue), 00:32
Nudity issues aside, if she has a manager who can't read a gmail account while out of town (especially if she knows there's an incoming work offer) then take a pass.

P51Mstg
30th of June 2009 (Tue), 09:08
REDACTED???? I was a lawyer and used that one everyday....... Now taking pictures....... Never really say it much..... Thank God......

Mark H

Strayz
30th of June 2009 (Tue), 18:42
Hey Mark, I might have a few names for you if you still need models. Send me a PM.

epatt250
5th of July 2009 (Sun), 21:07
I have had 0 luck on CL for models. I either end up with them trying to get me to sign up to some date site, or it takes them 2 weeks to respond between emails. If you dont check you email more often than 2 weeks then you have no business using the internet to handle yo biz.

I can see both sides. But I do get a kick out of alot of models, esp in my area who think they are going to make it big doing commercial, high fashion, print around here. First off.. this is Arkansas, there is no high fashion here, sorry but wranglers or a clearance dress you got from Puffs $12 zoo does not count. Anyone who thinks they are going to make it big here is already playing w/o a full hand of cards. Then you get those 5'3", size 6 girls who think they want to make a living and not take their clothes off. Sorry, I dont make the rules, I dont even agree with the cookie cutter rules, but they are what they are. If they want to make a decent enough living to live on their own and pay their own bills with those dimensions, they need to be taking their clothes off. I personally dont care one way or the other, I am not out looking to make a living off of nekkid girls or just try to get girls nekkid so I can look at them, so it makes me no difference. I still have to laugh at it though. For those that do it for fun, and dont want to get naked, I totally get that and its cool. But those who think they are going to bring in $500+ a week in podunk Arkansas as a size 8... they are kidding themselves.

There are plenty of markets and girls who can do very well w/o getting nude, but there are more of them who are better off trying to get a decent job that has nothing to do with posing.

mbell75
5th of July 2009 (Sun), 23:47
Depends who you shoot and what you shoot. Most the time, I am shooting actual models, not college students and waitresses playing model on the weekend. When you shoot real models, you many times have to go thru or work with agencies and/or managers who represent them. However, if you are just looking for a pretty girl to stand in front of your camera, Craigslist, Myspace and Model Mayhem will do just fine. She was probably a stripper/escort anyways. I hear about 90% of the "models" with ads on CL are...

Fade2
6th of July 2009 (Mon), 00:19
Your rude [/I]

So, I just have to laugh and say "never again." Anyone else have similar exchanges? How did or how would you handle something like this?

Wow she even spelled "you're" wrong.

A lot of these girls from craigslist are posting all over the place looking for dates, since the "erotic services" has been discontinued. And a lot of those girls weren't too bright!

Jon Foster
15th of July 2009 (Wed), 22:00
I looked at Craig's List once for potential models. Yikes! I'll never do/try that again!

Jon.

mattograph
15th of July 2009 (Wed), 22:14
REDACTED???? I was a lawyer and used that one everyday....... Now taking pictures....... Never really say it much..... Thank God......

Mark H

This quote feels ...... redacted. :)

Anyway, for what its worth, if I put my super sensitive skin on, the only thing I see that is "off putting" to me is this:

I work with several of new models every year, and I simply don’t have time for limitations not within the scope of my project, redirection to outside agents, and weeks of waiting. That's simply me, and most other real photographers.

There are far more modeling assignments available to clothed models then to nude or semi nude models. With that said, I agree it would be almost impossible to shoot glamour regularly if the individual was constantly worried about a nip slip. And as a photographer, you have every right to not work with someone who takes 20 minutes to do 5 minutes work because of modesty issues. Especially when paying by the hour.

I would have dropped a period after "that's simply me." Or told her to get over herself. Either would work. :)

Mark_Cohran
15th of July 2009 (Wed), 23:17
I would have dropped a period after "that's simply me." Or told her to get over herself. Either would work. :)

Exactly how I felt.

onebikeonehorseone5D
2nd of August 2009 (Sun), 14:53
Slivr.......I like your philosophy....but I can see Marks philosophy as well. I would go with Slivr on this one.

Mark.....you out talked the model, she read into it too much.....Her calling you rude was like a prison inmate calling the warden a criminal for throwing his cig. butt on the pavement.

wickerprints
2nd of August 2009 (Sun), 15:23
Everything or everyone I've ever seen on CL has either been a scam, a flake, a phony, or an idiot. Sometimes more than one of the above and occasionally all of the above.

I've seen people try to sell used camera equipment for maybe < 1% off the new price--yeah, who is going to buy cash only + used + who the f*** are you?

It takes all kinds. The signal-to-noise ratio on CL is way, way, way too low to be worth my time.

cdifoto
2nd of August 2009 (Sun), 15:39
I think a model has every right to keep her clothes on and I believe Mark was a little arrogant towards the end of the exchange. However, the model is a little off her nut for having an inaccessible manager, and it's illogical that she'd be entering into this conversation in the first place. That's her manager's job.

I also think the model needs to lean to stop hanging out with CDS & fire up that spellchecker a little more often. :D

QueenChatty
2nd of August 2009 (Sun), 16:01
I used to model in Toronto years ago. I never put out ads anywhere like the above mentioned spots. I think any REAL model would get contacts through reputable agencies.
You may have to pay a lot more to acquire a model for a photo shoot but at least you would see her/his portfolio and know just what you are getting. She/he would or shall I say should be more professional as well.

I never did nude shots only semi nude and I did quite well. That was the only thing I really disagreed with in your comments to her. Models can do very well in the industry without taking off their clothes.

Just a incident to chalk up to the whatever list and move on to better matches, I'm sure there are tons of models out there for you.

flipstyle72
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 16:13
I have to say, you indulged her too much. I would just not bothered...lol Probaby cuz i'm lazy at times.

But I have to disagree with your statement here -

2. When I contacted you about modeling, given the address in the ad, you tell me you don’t do nude images, which I can understand as a limitation, but as an “aspiring” model you’re not going to get very far with those kinds of limits.

I do shoot mostly nudes or fetish these days, but certainly don't think a woman wouldn't go far if she wouldn't shoot a nude or implied. That's kinda preposterous...

Mark_Cohran
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 20:35
Rather than suggesting another way to handle this, many of you have focused on statement 2 in my lengthier response:

2. When I contacted you about modeling, given the address in the ad, you tell me you don’t do nude images, which I can understand as a limitation, but as an “aspiring” model you’re not going to get very far with those kinds of limits.

While I certainly agree that not all models need to do nude work, a model advertising herself for glamour work in Portland, Oregon really needs to survey the local environment and understand the implications.

Certainly models do not need to pose nude to aspire to steady work and a career and there are a number of genres where this is more true than others. Glamour photography, though, is not one of those, IMHO.

cdifoto
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 21:05
I didn't know "glamour" was synonymous with "nude." If that's the case, why are we being redundant?

If Emmanuel Lewis...err I mean Webster...is to be believed, "glamour" doesn't require nudity at all.

2 : an exciting and often illusory and romantic attractiveness <the glamour of Hollywood>; especially : alluring or fascinating attraction —often used attributively <glamour stock><glamour girls><whooping cranes and…other glamour birds — R. T. Peterson>

Mark_Cohran
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 22:20
I didn't know "glamour" was synonymous with "nude." If that's the case, why are we being redundant?

If Emmanuel Lewis...err I mean Webster...is to be believed, "glamour" doesn't require nudity at all.

Ah, semantics - gotta love it.

Look, it's a non-issue, really. I'm not sure what the "model" wanted to do. She wasn't making herself accessible for shoots if her agent wasn't going to be able to talk to anyone for three weeks after the date when she initially placed her ad.

As to whether glamour includes or doesn't include nudity, I can certainly agree that it doesn't have to do so, but the genre certainly often does - at least in my experience. Your experience may vary and in that case, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

In any case, the point is moot.

cdifoto
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 22:28
It's not semantics. You told her she's not gonna get very far if she refuses to strip and that's simply not true...even for glamour. If she doesn't get very far it'll be because of her work ethic or lack thereof...it won't be because she prefers to stay clothed.

Mark_Cohran
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 22:34
It's not semantics. You told her she's not gonna get very far if she refuses to strip and that's simply not true...even for glamour. If she doesn't get very far it'll be because of her work ethic or lack thereof...it won't be because she prefers to stay clothed.

Ah, you are not only clairvoyent and know her future, but you're omniscient and you know all about the business environment in my area. :)

And, those weren't my words, so please don't restate them for me. As I noted above, the point is moot. I'm content to let the experience fade into oblivion.

cdifoto
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 22:38
Ah, you are not only clairvoyent and know her future, but you're omniscient and you know all about the business environment in my area. :)

And, those weren't my words, so please don't restate them for me. As I noted above, the point is moot. I'm content to let the experience fade into oblivion.
No more clairvoyant than you were when you said:
2. When I contacted you about modeling, given the address in the ad, you tell me you don’t do nude images, which I can understand as a limitation, but as an “aspiring” model you’re not going to get very far with those kinds of limits.

You may not have used the word "strip" but you certainly did say she won't get far in modeling without taking her clothes off.

dsmPhotoCompany
3rd of August 2009 (Mon), 23:53
2. When I contacted you about modeling, given the address in the ad, you tell me you don’t do nude images, which I can understand as a limitation, but as an “aspiring” model you’re not going to get very far with those kinds of limits.


False.

but why does every model or photog have to shoot nude to make it? there are plenty of models that could/would/and do lots of promo work that doesn't involve nudity.

off the soap box.....

Agreed.

They don't if they're primarily going into catalog and stock, but it's been my experience that models that place such strict limitations on their images don't get the same amount of work and (excuse the unintended pun) exposure as models who are willing to do nude or at least implied nude work. That's just my personal experience.

What kind of models are you referring too?

I work and am personal friends with many aspiring and working models that get paid plenty well without taking their clothes off.

Yup.

I can see where a lot of you are coming from and to some extent, I agree with you. Models can absolutely have a part-time or full-time career without doing nudes. On the other hand, I do think a model that is willing to do nudes, implied or otherwise, will have more, but not necessarily better, modeling opportunities.


The fact that she doesn't do nude work isn't what I had an issue with, really, but rather the whole concept that she couldn't take my word for it that we weren't a good match and the fact that she wanted me to contact an agent that was going to be away for "a few weeks."

Again, this is not true. There are tons of places that won't touch a model if he/she has posed nude...and it could be a nude set the model did 5 years ago that takes 'em out of the running for a current job. Yes, nude models obviously have the nude opportunities, but to put a blanket statement out there about them having more is not entirely correct.

As far as her not taking your word for it, I can see that as frustrating. Mostly because she referred you to someone that was not immediately accessible. However, I don't blame a model one bit for being skeptical. Especially of a photographer that she's never met and shoots nudes. For every flakey model, there is a sleazy photographer.

Both parties should be selective on who they work with.

I agree with her last response 100%. You were rude to her. Trust me, I too get frustrated with the "wanna-be" models that show up with these camera phone type snapshots and proclaim themselves the next top model and expect to be paid right outta the gate. Well, not frustrated, I don't even shoot TF* so it's really more amusing than anything else. But while she was a bit odd with the "dead-end" referral, there simply is no excusable reason to tell someone they won't get very far unless they're going to get naked. It gives our industry a bad name, period.

Moppie
4th of August 2009 (Tue), 00:25
False.


Again, this is not true. ..............


Did you read the rest of Marks comments, including the ones on this page before posting this?

Because you have focused on something very minnor, and taken it so far out of context it loses any sense of logical consistancy with regards to calling it true or false.

dsmPhotoCompany
4th of August 2009 (Tue), 06:43
I read the thread, I'm not allowed to comment? Absolutely nothing was taken out of context here.

Mark_Cohran
4th of August 2009 (Tue), 09:57
Gentlemen, we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Everyone one has an opinion, and not all opinions can be true. You're quite free to disagree with me if your experience has shown you otherwise, on the other hand, as I've noted above multiple times, I would have modified my response in light of the discussion, or at least not responded beyond the simple note that we were incompatible.

The original question was has anyone else had simillar experiences and how would you have handled it. I don't mind that my response has been dissected and opinions shared, but some of the most opinionated here simply can't accept that my experience doesn't correlate with their beliefs. That's fine too. But, as I noted, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. :)

Toblerone
4th of August 2009 (Tue), 10:29
buhbye is how I handle them :)

Mark, from what I've heard from a couple of places so far, I'd stay away from CL.
You weren't being rude, you were being a little pushy, but she's ( I hope) a grown woman and should be able to handle it. End of story. Peace on earth.

Nicole Faith
7th of August 2009 (Fri), 22:38
I didn't get to read through everything here, but what did her ad say exactly? If she stated she was interesting in becoming a model but also stated that she was not interested in nudes, then why did you contact her?

I think your last email to her does have a rude undertone to it, indicating that if she won't take off her clothes then she won't make it in the industry. This is just not the case. And where you as the photographer may specialize in that type of photography, you need to respect her decision. Looking at your portfolio, I would also get the impression you did more than just nudes and as a model I might be interested in non-nude photography with you. But if you were to come back to me and tell me that I can't do this because I am limiting myself to modeling in clothes - that does come off less than professional.

I would have explained more to her yes, but I would not pass judgment on her. If you felt she was brushing you off by deferring you to a 'manager', then I would have just stated that you felt you were getting the run around and that she was free to contact you when her manager returned. Stating that you don't deal with managers and limitations is a contradiction to the fact that you state you work in the glamor and nude industry. The better glamor and fashion models out there... will have managers and work for companies that they are contracted through. Not saying this model did, but it's part of the industry. I would have cringed that her deferred email as well, but I think there was a better way to deal with it.

mattograph
7th of August 2009 (Fri), 23:12
I think Mark cleared most of this up in post #13, which I won't quote, but offers his version of what he would say, given a second chance. If you read that post carefully, he addresses many of the concerns some posters seem to have.

There are some proven, successful pros posting in this thread who understand their particular specialty well, as they profit from it. With that said, it is somewhat unfair for us to debate Mark on whether "aspiring models in Portland will have a difficult time in glamour if they don't do nudes." From what I see, he is the only glamour shooter in Portland posting here. We have a wedding photographer from the east coast, and I would certainly NOT argue with him about how to light a bride in bright sun, or whether he should be pushing more black and whites on his clients. I'm not a wedding shooter, and I don't shoot in his market. I can offer opinions, but I don't KNOW. To assume I do is presumptuous. I think its important to remember that.