on camera flash and blue skies portraitures

[Cliff666]

i basically want to be able to expose the background like this using ambient and flash when i am on location and have no time to basically setup a lightstand and shoot off camera.
any tips please i have tried to do the whole -2 ev and using the 580exII on camera using TTL but i always get a exposed subject in the portrait but a very ugly over exposed sky even on blue sky days like this. Is there even a possible way to do this on camera off camera i have great results shooting cars and getting that sky but thats with 2 strobes off camera and using more so my lil SB24s. with people portraits i have trouble getting it right anyone can offer any advice?
thanks any help and advice appreciated
CLiff
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1339/1019671313_7ba80003f2.jpg

[Familiaphoto]

What mode is your camera in? Are you shooting in a mode like AV or TV? If so they will expose the subjects not the sky so even if you are using a flash your sky will not be exposed correctly. I always recommend shooting in manual exposing for the sky which will make your subjects dark and then let the flash fill them in.

Oh, by the way, if the above picture is not yours you should link to it not post it. Forum rules.

[Cliff666]

What mode is your camera in? Are you shooting in a mode like AV or TV? If so they will expose the subjects not the sky so even if you are using a flash your sky will not be exposed correctly. I always recommend shooting in manual exposing for the sky which will make your subjects dark and then let the flash fill them in.

Oh, by the way, if the above picture is not yours you should link to it not post it. Forum rules.


oops ok i will link instead and yes AV actually. thanks

if i shoot in manual mode though will the TTL ussually pick it up?
see what gets me is b4 when i owned the 430 ex and using that with the TTL mode off camera with the 580ex on camera i would get a properly exposed sky but with one on AV i get blown out skies. like this one AV mode with the 430 ex off cam and the 580 ex on camera. why does it work here but not with just the single on camera flash?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3189342278_b24785a806.jpg

[Familiaphoto]

oops ok i will link instead and yes AV actually. thanks

if i shoot in manual mode though will the TTL ussually pick it up?
see what gets me is b4 when i owned the 430 ex and using that with the TTL mode off camera with the 580ex on camera i would get a properly exposed sky but with one on AV i get blown out skies. like this one AV mode with the 430 ex off cam and the 580 ex on camera. why does it work here but not with just the single on camera flash?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3189342278_b24785a806.jpg

No worries on the posting rules, there are many to remember.

The below shot probably depends on the metering mode you were using, was it center weighted, etc. that can affect how the sky turned out. Just a guess.

My rule is to always use manual when using a flash, no matter if they are on or off camera. Give you much more control in exposing backgrounds correctly.

[HybridUK]

Try shooting with a narrow aperture. Something like f11 or f16.

Jason Cole uses this method and his skys are unreally blue.

[Wilt]

Tough to do, as shown in the linked picture. The issue is flash power!

Sunny 16 says 1/100 f/16 as base ambient exposure. If you are 20' from the subjects with a 30mm lens on APS-C (it sees area about 10' x 15'), the flash at f/16 only will reach out to less than 10' at that lens coverage angle! If you go to 1/200 f/11, the flash can reaches out only to 14' , but the the background is still just as bright as it was according to Sunny 16.

If you make the f/stop smaller at f/16 and 1/200, you are underexposing the sky by -1EV but back to the 10' shooting distance issue with insufficient flash power. If you increase shutter speed to 1/400 and use f/11 to underexpose the sky by -1EV, you must use HSS flash to illuminate the subject, which reduces the max distance that the flash can reach, so HSS is not a solution either.

[gregpphoto]

Tough to do, as shown in the linked picture. The issue is flash power!

Sunny 16 says 1/100 f/16 as base ambient exposure. If you are 20' from the subjects with a 30mm lens on APS-C (it sees area about 10' x 15'), the flash at f/16 only will reach out to less than 10' at that lens coverage angle! If you go to 1/200 f/11, the flash can reaches out only to 14' , but the the background is still just as bright as it was according to Sunny 16.

If you make the f/stop smaller at f/16 and 1/200, you are underexposing the sky by -1EV but back to the 10' shooting distance issue with insufficient flash power. If you increase shutter speed to 1/400 and use f/11 to underexpose the sky by -1EV, you must use HSS flash to illuminate the subject, which reduces the max distance that the flash can reach, so HSS is not a solution either.

What was all that? You don't have to shoot at f/16 to get a blue skit, and you can bump up the power of your flash, right?

[Wilt]

What was all that? You don't have to shoot at f/16 to get a blue skit, and you can bump up the power of your flash, right?

Simply a detailed explanation to a 'bottom line' statement that, to replicate the photo posted by Cliff666, it is very tough to do if you are not fairly close to your subject... If you are shooting a subject 20' away, the maxed out flash cannot give you enough power to permit you to underexpose the sky.

[gregpphoto]

Simply a detailed explanation to a 'bottom line' statement that, to replicate the photo posted by Cliff666, it is very tough to do if you are not fairly close to your subject... If you are shooting a subject 20' away, the maxed out flash cannot give you enough power to permit you to underexpose the sky.

20' is a stretch I guess, for most flashes.

[mbell75]

Try shooting with a narrow aperture. Something like f11 or f16.

Jason Cole uses this method and his skys are unreally blue.

Yep. When I am shooting models at the beach I use my on camera flash alot. Need to be shooting up around f/13-16 to get the blue sky to pop

[Wilt]

20' is a stretch I guess, for most flashes.


It is a stretch at 10' !

"If you make the f/stop smaller at f/16 and 1/200, you are underexposing the sky by -1EV but back to the 10' shooting distance issue with insufficient flash power. If you increase shutter speed to 1/400 and use f/11 to underexpose the sky by -1EV, you must use HSS flash to illuminate the subject, which reduces the max distance that the flash can reach, so HSS is not a solution either."

[dmward]

Go to the Hi Speed Sync tutorial page on www.digifotografi.com.

There is a description and images illustrating how to use EV and FEC to get the results you want.

If you are talking full figure images the 580EXII may be stretched a bit.

[m33p33]

The original picture you linked, no matter how you metered, would not have looked as good with on camera flash. Its not just the blue sky but the modeling of light and shadow on the subject that brings interest to that photo.
It looks like the light source was somewhere between 60-90 degrees to the right of the camera axis to get that effect.

as a solution to going sans-light stands:

Bring an assistant along, have them hold the off camera flash - instant mobile stand. You could even attach the light to a mono pod (Ghetto Boom) to add some height.

The two candidates in your posted photo have the perfect pockets to hold your flash in between shots. :P

You could also go to Home depot and rig up some clamps (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100161744&categoryID=500450) and a 1/4 x 20 bolt to attach your flash to (there is even a hole in the top of the clamp to run your bolt through). I used Jen-Weld to hold my bolt in place. Clamp them on to tree branches fence posts etc.

[drh681]

I use AV mode and set the EC minus.6 and the FEC to minus 1.
with an old 380EX and f 8.0
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm211/drh681/Family/tyler5-digifrm_011.jpg

using a technique I call "knee high shooting" I try to stay in front of the kids as they go about the party...
the camera is set for automatic focus point selection and the widest angle of the lens.

[ootsk]

It's all about flash power. To get the white sky blue you need to be at f-16 up to f-22. To get your subject proplerly lit at that aperature you need a LOT of power/light. I bought the vagabond for my AB for just that purpose.

[ootsk]

Notice that on my two photos, as well as the photo you linked, that the other objects in the photo were dark. The buildings in the background and the trees weren't getting enough light. That's because we're exposing for the SKY, while setting the flash for the SUBJECTS. Great when the subjects are close, but no Alien Bee or Vagabond is powerfull enough to light the background 100 feet away. Certainly no EX/SB flash.
Therefore, you'll be pretty hard pressed to shoot that type of photo with on-camera flash.

[pellepiano]

Its all about distance. You can overpower the sun with a flash light if you are close enough =)

Here are two Vivitar , left and right, undiffused.( together the have the same gn as a Sigma Super 500 ).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/3325782879_bda29d5c73.jpg

If you want diffused light though, like the nice images from ootsk, AND full body shots, thats when you need some serious power ( I love that look )-.

[ootsk]

Wow Pell..that's a great photo.

[Jim M]

If you were shooting AV in the image you posted as a sample, then in my opinion, for whatever it's worth, you just got lucky. You had enough sky in the image to influence the camera to expose close to the way you wanted it. The faces of the two guys are a bit overexposed to my eyes. I suspect that is because their dark jackets influenced the flash exposure. If that is the type of shot you are trying to replicate with one flash, I think you should be able to do it easily. But personally, I wouldn't use AV. I would use manual mode on the camera, meter the sky to get it's exposure values where you want them, then shoot ETTL with with the flash. Adjust with FEC as needed. Shooting AV mode with flash is fraught with an amazing amount of uncertainty. You can do it, but you'd better know what you're doing and why.

[Bearmann]

Sometimes you can use a polarizer as I have done here. I probably exaggerated the effect in ACR too. This preserves your background exposure while still darkening the sky. Of course, it would not have worked in Pelle's photo above with the sun straight in front of the camera.

http://brsphoto.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p105159746-3.jpg