Say yes? or pass? Help me forum gods!

[Teeth]

Please help me decide on this gig! I'm on the fence as to signing up for it or passing it off to another photog. As for experience, I'm probably considered an advanced hobbyist. I've been taking pics for about 4 years, with the last two on an SLR. I was recommended for this based on some bands I shot in action over the past year for my own experience and satisfaction.

The gig (my first official one, actually):
I've been contacted by a community organization (on recommendation from a close friend) to take photos at an upcoming "battle of the bands" competition. The event will consist of 5 hours of local youth bands playing, with the scope of the photog to capture "professional style" shots of the bands playing and misc. promo headshots of the winners for the clients advertising.

After negotiating with the client over hourly price or a per picture usage fee, his final offer is:
- Being the exclusive event photographer (promoted through their advertising at the show, before and after)
- Receiving no pay, and all pictures will be supplied to the client, post processed, with an unlimited use licence.
- Being the recommended photographer for band promo shoots before the event, if the band wants additional pictures (I can charge what I want for a promo shot of a band... but they can go elsewhere as I'm only recommended)
- Exclusive rights to sell prints and photo merchandise of the event via my own methods (I'm thinking prints on InstaProofs, my own pricing, and fulfilling the orders myself)

Overall, the only way to cover my cost is if I can get a few bands in for some discounted promo sessions a few weeks prior to the event (being the recommended photog), and then just rely on print sales from advertising immediately afterwards. I don't have huge experience, so I'm not sure how that will pay off.

My impression is to let this opportunity pass by, as I have other things I could do with the time especially considering no guarantee of compensation. It seems like a volunteer and be recognized gig, more than a paid gig. Thoughts, opinions, recommendations? Should I, shouldn't I?

Super huge thanks!

Side note: I'm sorry for the novel... I've been lurking for a year and saved up all my posts for this one.

[amonline]

If you're good at marketing, have a boatload of business cards to hand out with a site setup to sell the images from with a lab attached and ready to go, Go for it. If not - pass, set that all up and try again.

[Karl Johnston]

Do it, sounds like fun ...if you aren't a working photog-I like this word better than professional photog; which can be misleading and a bit insulting even if one doesn't draw his or her full income off of photog yet does professional work- then the financial compensation isn't a factor and it'd be great for your portfolio.

Great if you got some print sales, too, and had more potential for extra work.

It's not really working for free but working for experience and to get more work, in future. Think of it as a "working advertisement" if that makes sense. Truthfully these are perhaps more valuable than the 150$ an hour I would charge for something like this..exclusive rights; that's pretty something right there.

I suggest not worrying about the cost and just going out and having fun, getting your feet wet and your legs muddy. See who you meet...maybe someone can open more doors for you. Everytime I go somewhere and do something for free I end up meeting 1 or 2 people that say "hey could you do this for me...whats your hourly rate?" "Could you print this shot of that for me in this size?"

[Concretin Nik]

I am not a pro, hardly an amateur... but this statement would be an issue for me
- Receiving no pay, and all pictures will be supplied to the client, post processed, with an unlimited use licence.
Post processing takes ALOT of time. So you're gonna spend much more than just 5 hours on this gig.

AND unlimited use, with zero compensation... ??

I mean, I know it's kids bands and all... but that client obviously knows what he's asking for and getting for FREE. He's not "offering" much at all with his 'final offer.'

2 things about that "unlimited use license":
1. At the very least, I'd add that a photo credit is required every time a photo is used, no matter the media. (And be sure to hold them to it.)
2. Add that they are not allowed to sell the photos. (For this job, this is your only source of direct income. You don't want them selling packages to the bands. They may not be planning to, but if you don't state that they can't, they might.)

I do agree that the experience will be good to have. And the contacts made (lots of parents at these types of things) might prove very valuable, and I'd imagine print sales would be decent.

Good luck!!

[sspellman]

Teeth-

The real catch is that you they want you to provide pictures to the event organizer for zero compensation and assume all business risk. No reasonable person would ever agree to that unless it was offset by actual revenue from the bands. I would offer them the pictures for your fee-$500 minus any revenue. So when you generate $500 of revenue, the client get the images for $0. This is the only way to prevent the client from providing the pictures to the bands for free.

Otherwise, tell them they can find another sucker.
-Scott

[noxcuses1]

Please help me decide on this gig! I'm on the fence as to signing up for it or passing it off to another photog. As for experience, I'm probably considered an advanced hobbyist. I've been taking pics for about 4 years, with the last two on an SLR. I was recommended for this based on some bands I shot in action over the past year for my own experience and satisfaction.

The gig (my first official one, actually):
I've been contacted by a community organization (on recommendation from a close friend) to take photos at an upcoming "battle of the bands" competition. The event will consist of 5 hours of local youth bands playing, with the scope of the photog to capture "professional style" shots of the bands playing and misc. promo headshots of the winners for the clients advertising.

After negotiating with the client over hourly price or a per picture usage fee, his final offer is:
- Being the exclusive event photographer (promoted through their advertising at the show, before and after)
- Receiving no pay, and all pictures will be supplied to the client, post processed, with an unlimited use license.
- Being the recommended photographer for band promo shoots before the event, if the band wants additional pictures (I can charge what I want for a promo shot of a band... but they can go elsewhere as I'm only recommended)
- Exclusive rights to sell prints and photo merchandise of the event via my own methods (I'm thinking prints on InstaProofs, my own pricing, and fulfilling the orders myself)

Overall, the only way to cover my cost is if I can get a few bands in for some discounted promo sessions a few weeks prior to the event (being the recommended photog), and then just rely on print sales from advertising immediately afterwards. I don't have huge experience, so I'm not sure how that will pay off.

My impression is to let this opportunity pass by, as I have other things I could do with the time especially considering no guarantee of compensation. It seems like a volunteer and be recognized gig, more than a paid gig. Thoughts, opinions, recommendations? Should I, shouldn't I?

Super huge thanks!


If you've ever worked with bands you'll know that many of them are:


local youth bands are BROKE!
probably not getting paid for this gig.
will have friends with cameras taking pics
My recommendation would be to ask the sponsors/client for a "token payment". Meaning you receive some sort of pay for shooting this gig. Sounds like a good opportunity, BUT I wouldn't do it for free. Seriously, even if you tell the client how much time you will be working on this project, then ask for a small amount to cover your travel/gas/basic expenses. This way you're NOT LOSING money. Gas costs money to drive to the venue as well as other costs to supply your services. It's not fair for you to shoot for free, and you shouldn't/don't expect to make any money from the bands. The bands just want to play the gig and win. Why should you lose?
The client is getting WAY more out of this.

If the client doesn't want to pay, then maybe you can re-negotiate the usage license.....I just can't see giving unlimited usage if they're not paying ANYTHING.

Good luck.


:)
BAND- "hey would you be interested in shooting me/my band"

ME- SURE!

BAND- "oh wait, do you charge money?"

ME- no, like all other pros I'm free.... (sarcasm) morons

[noxcuses1]

Teeth-
tell them they can find another sucker.
-Scott

WELL SAID, Scott!


For every band, there's a "fanboy" (cough...sucker) willing to give them gratis photos, lol.

[chakalakasp]

Please help me decide on this gig! I'm on the fence as to signing up for it or passing it off to another photog. As for experience, I'm probably considered an advanced hobbyist. I've been taking pics for about 4 years, with the last two on an SLR. I was recommended for this based on some bands I shot in action over the past year for my own experience and satisfaction.

The gig (my first official one, actually):
I've been contacted by a community organization (on recommendation from a close friend) to take photos at an upcoming "battle of the bands" competition. The event will consist of 5 hours of local youth bands playing, with the scope of the photog to capture "professional style" shots of the bands playing and misc. promo headshots of the winners for the clients advertising.

After negotiating with the client over hourly price or a per picture usage fee, his final offer is:
- Being the exclusive event photographer (promoted through their advertising at the show, before and after)
- Receiving no pay, and all pictures will be supplied to the client, post processed, with an unlimited use licence.

This right here is enough to pass. They want you for free. They want an unlimited license, to boot. Basically, they want to use you.

[Teeth]

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone!

I have to agree with Concretin amd sspellman; I would like to have even just a base fee offset against revenue (to cover gas/batteries/a burger for lunch), but they wont budge. The client wants it all + processing for next to nothing. Additionally, I've clarified with him this morning that although the images will be unlimited use, I will have sole rights to sales (of prints), and I will have a photo credit for "the majority of images used" (his words).

My main problem is the post processing: I could half-ass it and batch process everything but I like to take pride in my work and focus on making each picture a damn fine picture. I'm also now doubting any talent I have to make that fee out of bands and parents purchasing prints or sessions (I used to play in one of these bands and I know how broke you can get).

Really what it comes down to: Paying out of my pocket for experience, and hoping it pays back with new contacts and opportunities.

Me = Still on the fence for now... I'll let the comments digest for a bit.

[noxcuses1]

If he won't budge, I'd say to pass then.

It's so sickening how many people out there who think that we photographers should accept NO FEE for our services we provide.

Here, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

If photographers keep accepting jobs for nothing, then nothing will ever change.


Nothing comes from nothing and nothing get made if nothing is given.

[Sledhed]

I would pass too. You would be shooting on spec and trying to sell to kids with no money and friends with cameras. As for credit lines, big deal! Nobody reads them anyway!

[chakalakasp]

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone!

I have to agree with Concretin amd sspellman; I would like to have even just a base fee offset against revenue (to cover gas/batteries/a burger for lunch), but they wont budge. The client wants it all + processing for next to nothing. Additionally, I've clarified with him this morning that although the images will be unlimited use, I will have sole rights to sales (of prints), and I will have a photo credit for "the majority of images used" (his words).

My main problem is the post processing: I could half-ass it and batch process everything but I like to take pride in my work and focus on making each picture a damn fine picture. I'm also now doubting any talent I have to make that fee out of bands and parents purchasing prints or sessions (I used to play in one of these bands and I know how broke you can get).

Really what it comes down to: Paying out of my pocket for experience, and hoping it pays back with new contacts and opportunities.

Me = Still on the fence for now... I'll let the comments digest for a bit.

If you take this 'job' you are a sucker. This isn't a job, this is just some jackass that wants you to work for him for free. There are a billion different bands that you could photograph by yourself for free if you're looking for experience in band photography. Hell, unless tickets are sold with terms, you could probably just show up and shoot the band by yourself and then market the photos. It's not like you're shooting Coldplay here -- there are a jillion wannabe garagebands out there, and access isn't exactly hard to get.

[Teeth]

If photographers keep accepting jobs for nothing, then nothing will ever change.

I fully agree, and I've heard that before and have seen the video. That's always been sticking in the back of my head telling me not to go through with it for free.

I've contacted the client and outlined the issues of why I could not perform the service. He was accepting of my argument, but still didn't budge... so I'm definitely out now, and not regretting it. Heck, as mentioned, I can always keep going to my choice of shows, for my satisfaction and self development and have a good time doing it (and keep the rights to my photos).

Thanks for all your help!

[LBaldwin]

Scott,

As already stated he is looking for a freebee. You love music and no doubt love shooting the bands, I get it. I am the same way with many subjects, some will never pan out financially. BUT, I rarely give away shots for others to profit from and in your instance here is why. Lets say that you do the gig and low and behold one of the bands gets picked up by a name label. Then they start to tour, larger and larger venues. You suddenly remember that you have those early shots and want to sell them for publication, then you run into they other guy who just gave them away to a hunderd different rags for nuthin - you my young paddywhack are hosed.

No doubt two things will occur, you will take the gig under those horrible rules, or another sucker will, but he will be the only one to prosper. Now, lets say you give a verbal agreement to him and decide to hose him instead and not give him a single usable image, and keep them for your self. He has no leg to stand on without a written contract, and here is why I feel that way. He cannot have an enforecable contract without giving you a tangible form of payment and expect the same from you.

OOPs I just saw that you stuck by your guns and declined the gig, good for you. I guess your handle rings truth, you do have teeth!! Now contact each band individually, and set up shoots, make them sign contracts and get at least token payments, yes I know that bands are poor. I am not in favor of hosing fellow creatives, BUT the promoter, eff um.

To me promoters are just legal pimps, they make money off of others talent.

[Concretin Nik]

Now contact each band individually, and set up shoots...

Yep.

Hell, unless tickets are sold with terms, you could probably just show up and shoot the band by yourself and then market the photos.

And Yep.

Cut the kids/parents a break with the photography. Not the jerk promoter.

[snyderman]

"Battle of the Bands" = a bunch of young, original acts without enough coin to buy strings and picks for their guitars. Trust me, they won't subsidize your shoot by buying any promo pics! They use cell phone shots uploaded to their computer and printed at the local library for 5 cents a copy!

I'm trying to see what's in this for you other than an oppty to shoot all day and give your good work away. 'Not seein' it here, Lloyd.'

dave

[torvaterra]

Im in agreement here with everyone who is saying that the promoter is trying to get a free ride out of you.

I think that you should be clear with him that in him asking you for free images, you are spending money on him. You have to pay gas money, time for the event, and then post processing time, not to mention the use of your equipment. All of which cost and are worth money.

-Youre doing something for someone. He gets something. What do you get? If it isnt charity then there has to be something for both sides.

-You should be proud of your work regardless of your status: hobbyist, pro, etc. Dont let someone take it from you for free. You are worth something.

On the other side, I can try to play dev. ad. and say that if you use the images in your portfolio and on your website, you might be able to justify it. But even then, that guy is being a weasel in asking for "unlimited rights." He knows what he is talking about. Very "used car salesman" like, imo.

If you do it, I wouldnt go along with unlimited rights. There has to be a reason he wants them like that, and why he knows to ask for it. Something shady here...

[nicksan]

Either do it for the experience or pass on it if you already have the experience under your belt, which seems like the case to me...

I am by no means a "working photographer". My career lies elsewhere. But it's certainly nice to make money "on the side". I shot a concert for free for a private music school operator last Winter. I did 2 additional shoots for the same person and was paid each time. There was a clear understanding that the first time was a "courtesy" shoot...we were invited to the concert and I just took my gear with me just for the fun of it. They liked my shots so much, now they want me to take pics of all their concerts/student recitals. So far, since that first free shoot, I did 2 additional shoots for them, both paid. I mean, it's not much, but I do enjoy it, it's a good learning experience, and I get paid a little something...

So don't let this promoter take advantage of you if you feel that you are not doing this for the experience. (Seems like you have shot concerts in the past according to you Flickr...)

That said, it does sound like fun. I mean, I do a lot of things for free. Takes a chunk of time out of my life. A few weekends ago, I did a baby shower on Saturday, then shot a few pics of friend's baby on Sunday. Non paid. I didn't mind b/c I had fun and it was a great learning experience. Plus, you get to screw up without consequences...believe me, I need that margin of error! :-)

[noxcuses1]

Hrmmm....maybe the promoter is promoting this event to use it in his work portfolio or doing it for free because he likes to promote local bands.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[pantherphotos]

If he won't budge, I'd say to pass then.

It's so sickening how many people out there who think that we photographers should accept NO FEE for our services we provide.

Here, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

If photographers keep accepting jobs for nothing, then nothing will ever change.

Okay, that link would be hilarious if it wasn't what people actually expect from photographers a lot of the times. Who else works for free? I mean, c'mon!

[pantherphotos]

I fully agree, and I've heard that before and have seen the video. That's always been sticking in the back of my head telling me not to go through with it for free.

I've contacted the client and outlined the issues of why I could not perform the service. He was accepting of my argument, but still didn't budge... so I'm definitely out now, and not regretting it. Heck, as mentioned, I can always keep going to my choice of shows, for my satisfaction and self development and have a good time doing it (and keep the rights to my photos).

Thanks for all your help!

I tend to be stubborn...I would probably show up and shoot the bands now just for the fun of it. Maybe not right...oh well!

[tim]

I suspect it's a case of take it or leave it, they don't really need photos. Do a great job, promote yourself to the parents, and sell prints afterwards. Don't sell prints for $1 each, sell a 6x4" for at least $10 or probably more, and big prints even more.

Chances are you'll not make any money at all. Do it for the fun of it.

[Teeth]

I'm glad the majority of comments are in the same boat. Everyone's combined wealth of knowledge (see: post count and years of experience) definitely removes any doubts I was having about turning it down.

It really wasn't something that I needed to do for experience, as having a lot of friends in local bands and having been in that scene I'm happy to say there's a steady supply of opportunities. Although it would add to the portfolio, I'm sure I'll be glad to pass on those hours spent post processing massive amounts of photos and instead go out, shoot an established local band, have fun, and pass out some cards in a more relaxed manner... isn't that what's being a hobby photog all about? Haha, I guess I do have a day job that pays the bills for a reason.

Thanks to everyone for helping me realize that... and to avoid getting hosed by an event "pimp". If it was for some kids I knew or had a relationship with, I'd be all over it and helping them out. Although, all this talk has me seriously looking at a way to effectively sell prints of events that I do attend. I've only ever dealt one-on-one with a client's needs, never to the masses... something to look into because I still could go to the show, shoot, and sell prints... panther style... just kidding. :P

[Teeth]

Here, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

If photographers keep accepting jobs for nothing, then nothing will ever change.

Watching this again now, with no stress of a decision to be made really opens your eyes... THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS!

[Drozz119]

+1 on Still Shooting the event.

I think you'd be surprised how much money these families have. I did a music video for a finalist in a 'battle of the bands' contest. The Dad that contacted me, shot his kids band and some backstage and garage footage with his camcorder.. and paid me to edit it into a music video.

I met him at his 10,000 sq/ft house to go over the details. Most of these kids come from upper-middle class families.

I can't remember the exact amount, but the Dad told me he paid $200-$300 to the Photographer of the event for photos of his kids band. I had to call the photographer to confirm that the Dad had the rights to the photos(I used a few in the video). He said that he did 'well' at the event, and that he had a computer/monitor with an assistant at the event selling the digital files.

[DennisW1]

The only part you didnt go into detail about is whether they're at least supplying the vaseline or is this going to be a dry one?

In other words, I'd walk away unless you really want to be used like this.

[jacuff]

+1 on Still Shooting the event.

-1 on Still Shooting the event. Yeah, some of these kids come from rich families, but you can market yourself to them and get paid without having to shoot the event under those lousy terms.

[tfizzle]

If you really wanted to you could just go and take pictures...have them for yourself and pass out contact information for them to view the pictures online if they want. If it's a public place/venue...heck even if it's not and they allow photography and you don't need to be right up front to get good shots you could always just go.

Just go...take pictures...hand out business cards. If you have a good enough portfolio online then it won't matter who is there taking pictures.

I've done a free gig and it was ok...got some contacts but I don't think I'd spend that much time again for no compensation.

[Drozz119]

-1 on Still Shooting the event. Yeah, some of these kids come from rich families, but you can market yourself to them and get paid without having to shoot the event under those lousy terms.

I took into consideration that this is the OP's first gig. No one can expect to make thousands on their first gig!

It's all in what you put into it. The best business men/women can make something out of nothing.

Example: Like someone else said in this thread..Hand out business cards, Get a shirt printed up with your logo and number/web address. Bring an assistant/wife/daughter to work a table at the entrance to the Auditorium. Bring your home PC/monitor, have your assistant shuffle your memory cards, load them in the pc and let the parents see the pictures during the show. Have a price list ($75 for a CD of images of Each Act). Print Labels for the Cd's prior to the show with your logo and contact info.

It might cost $50 ($20 for Cds/Labels, $30 for Shirts)

The parents Will buy the pictures. If there are 5 kids in the band, they'll each pitch in $15 and copy them.

The Marketing opportunity is Huge! You get your name out there, business cards, cd's with your info, and you probably sell at least 5-10 of the cd's ($375-$750)

Not to mention the future business you could generate. It's either that or sit at home and wait for someone to find you, and pay you good money in a recession.

[Karl Johnston]

Just do it ! ;)

[chakalakasp]

Watching this again now, with no stress of a decision to be made really opens your eyes... THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS!

If you think that's funny and relevant, you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE&fmt=18

[Concretin Nik]

If you think that's funny and relevant, you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE&fmt=18

LMAO! :lol:

[noxcuses1]

If you think that's funny and relevant, you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE&fmt=18

That's been around for a while now. ;)

[CJinAustin]

If I were going to do it for free I would make sure my name/business name was written on the bottom right corner of every single one.

[Karl Johnston]

If I were going to do it for free I would make sure my name/business name was written on the bottom right corner of every single one.
Definitely a good idea

[Teeth]

Example: Like someone else said in this thread..Hand out business cards, Get a shirt printed up with your logo and number/web address. Bring an assistant/wife/daughter to work a table at the entrance to the Auditorium. Bring your home PC/monitor, have your assistant shuffle your memory cards, load them in the pc and let the parents see the pictures during the show. Have a price list ($75 for a CD of images of Each Act). Print Labels for the Cd's prior to the show with your logo and contact info.

Now that is a solid plan! Since turning down the job, I've found out that there's another photog who took the job (and there was no mention of vaseline of any sort, so I'm sure he/she will be walking a bit funny the next day). I'm feeling very glad to not be in that person's position due to what was mentioned before: there's nothing stopping me from still going and promoting myself. I've never really thought through selling cd's at an event, but you're all making it sound pretty straight forward. I can easily go that route with the lovely and supporting fiancee as the assistant.

Now to touch on the rights of the freelance photog: Can I be kicked out of the event for doing so? I'm thinking they have the right to remove anyone they please for any reason, but if it's a public event do I have a right to stay? If the answer to this question is in my benefit, I'll start sourcing some CD stacks and get some more business cards printed.

[chakalakasp]

Now to touch on the rights of the freelance photog: Can I be kicked out of the event for doing so? I'm thinking they have the right to remove anyone they please for any reason, but if it's a public event do I have a right to stay? If the answer to this question is in my benefit, I'll start sourcing some CD stacks and get some more business cards printed.

Sure, if it's private property they can kick you out for any reason and they can tell you to stop shooting. Also, if the event is ticketed, check your ticket to make sure there are no terms on the back that prohibit photography.

If it's on public property, it's probably a different story (unless the organizer has rented out the area for the performance, which he may well have.)

More likely, if there are a bajillion people there, the promoter may not notice or care, especially if he doesn't know what you look like. You'll probably blend in with the other 50 people with cameras.

/not a lawyer -- consult a lawyer for professional legal advice applicable to your circumstances

[Iguide]

Teeth:

Just a couple of business points that I have learned the hard way.

1. When you perform a service for someone it is worth some kind of reasonable fee. Early in a career it may be worth while to consider payment that still has value, but may not be currency $$$. Just what depends on how confident you are in your service and your competency to provided the service necessary. If you do not value what you do enough to charge a reasonable fee, no one will will see you as valuable enough to pay you a reasonable fee.

2. This is really important, really important. What ever you agree to with a client get it in writing and signed by the client. If you do not they can do what ever they want and you will have a hard time with any recourse because you have no proof of agreement. Also without a written agreement you are likely/may to be preconceived by anyone with business experience as to not be very professional, not worth paying much to begin with or are easy to take advantage of. In all cases impressions that you do not want to present.

3. If you feel you are worth something decide what it is and plainly state it with confidence.

Best of luck moving forward.