how to take Team Photos for a Sports Organzation?

[LetMEtryIT]

I run a sports organization with over 1,000 kids. I outsource the team photos every season to a company that gives me 15% back. However, I am thinking about starting my own photography business on the side, and keeping 100% for the organization!

For those of you that shoot team photos:
What would be the advantages and disadvantages?
What are some good online distributors for the cardboard picture frames for the photos?
Where is a good place to buy those picture envelopes that the parents fill out (order forms)?
What would be the best Canon Camera to shoot these pictures with? (they would be still, not action)

Any further comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[muleskinner]

Where are you located?

[Picturesports]

I've been approached by several schools and organisations over the years, asking me if I'd like this type of business.

Every time I've looked in to it, I've been amazed. It is a real production line business, tight margins and lots of admin. Unless you are organised in exactly the right way, with a stream lined operation, it can sink you. I've always said - Thank you for the thought but no thank you.

Just the admin of tracking 1000 prints and who wants what size, who doesn't want the prints, refunds, bad prints, reprints etc etc. Not to mention the packaging, distribution, lost prints, etc etc

If I could sit back and get 15% or perhaps 18% for a repeat deal with no effort - I think I'd take it.

Cheers Dave

[LetMEtryIT]

Picturesports - I've researched the prices of the 'Packages' on the envelope that my photographer offers and have found LARGE margins.

What costs do you think I could be leaving out??

[bwolford]

Time, prints, camera, prints, software, postage, and dozens of other things you haven't even thought of.

What makes you think you can match the quality of your outsourced photog if you don't even have the camera you need.

I do quite a bit of this work and I can tell you its not easy. And the margins are not as loose as they first appear.

[DDCSD]

What costs do you think I could be leaving out??

Lots of time involved, how much is your time worth? You'll need a reliable, competent assistant. Primary equipment. Back-up equipment (you really, really don't want your camera, lens or lights to malfunction when you have a couple hundred kids lined up ready to have their photos taken and not have a back-up so that you can keep shooting). Lots more time figuring out how to use that equipment. Editing software. Even more time learning how to use the software. Prints. Postage. Re-prints. More postage. Refunds. Sales taxes. Insurance. FICA taxes. Income taxes. etc, etc, etc...

I'd take the 15% free money. T&I shoots are a pain, and aren't as profitable as they appear. Just because the photographer charges $25 for a package that costs them $5 to print doesn't mean they're making $20 in profit on that package.

I have gotten into doing them this year. I have only done a couple of teams at a time and I can't imagine trying to do 1000 kids with little or no experience.


Welcome to POTN!!!

[Tigershark]

IMO the cardboard memory mates are outdated, digital MM are what a lot of people are using now so if you aren't good in photoshop be prepared to buy templates. I shoot several leagues and even though it generates a lot of revenue you have to consider all your expenses. Insurance, gear(camera lens, backup camera lens, lights), tables, canapys, displays, GOOD HELP to work your booth, assistants and second shooters that know what they are doing, after all that you have to process the photos get them printed, sort them by team, bag the photos and deliver back to the league. 15% is great, you are asking the very basic of questions for a very complex business. When you shoot a league with 1000 kids you have no room for mistakes, scheduling can be a nightmare and you can't do it all yourself so don't even attempt it. My house looks like an assembly factory in the Fall, Winter and Spring, my wife and kids help bag thousands of photos, the UPS man knows me on a first name basis because of all the supplies and photos that get delivered, it is a tough business and if you are a good business person you can certainly make a living doing it but it takes a heck of a lot of organizational skills to pull it off and deliver a quality product back to the league and the parents. You have to be prepared for anything and everything , the weather can be a bitch with rescheduling, makeups etc, if you want to get into I would seriously suggest a small league vs your own with 1000 kids. I could write a lot more but will stop with this
good luck, as far as the cardboard MM I used to use Tyndell before making the switch to digital

[wyofizz]

TIME, TIME and more TIME + $10,000+ in gear not counting computer gear and processing software.
To be frank, the fact that you had to ask what camera to buy means you aren't ready to tackle such a big venue.
Start smaller and learn the ropes first. I can't imagine having that many people mad if it went bad.
;-)
Dave

[LetMEtryIT]

I agree with the both of you when you say 'start small'. I could easily start with 100 (a certain age divsion or location) of the kids and let my outsourced photographer do the other 900.

The reason this is being brought to my attention is due to the fact that I have been approached by multiple photography companies in my area that want my organization as a customer. Theses companis have offered me 30% cash back, double the 15% I am currently getting.

Imagine it from my point of view, you are going to offer me '30 PERCENT' cash back off your bottom line and yet you still are making a profit off of my organization? I doubt they would turn over half their profit, which leads me to believe there is at least a 50% margin in this business.

Thoughts?

p.s. Thanks for all the feedback and thanks in advance for anymore responses, I'm loving the thoughts/opinions here on POTN!!

[DDCSD]

I'd bet that 30% is at least half their profit. Remember, the government takes about 30% of your profit. The state usually wants 5-9%, and they usually take their cut on sales, not profits.

Let's say that the average parent buys a $20 package. That's $20,000 that the photographer brings in for your league. Now he has to turn in 7% sales taxes on that $20,000. Let's just say that he has $3,000 in direct expenses. Now he's got $18,600. Now Uncle Sam is knocking at the door for more money to run his automobile plants. He's going to let the photographer keep $13,020. Now the photographer has to pay for all those neat little envelopes, there's another $1500 out the window.

Where are we, $11,520? Now we can print the packages. Let's be conservative and say he got them printed for $3 for every $20. That gets us down to $8,520. Let's pay our assistant(s). $8,000. Now I've got to replace that light stand that some kids knocked over and get my light fixed (at least they didn't get hurt. $7,650. How about some re-prints. $7500. Crud! I forgot to pay the organization its 15%!!! Now I've got $4500

$4500 and I haven't even paid my rent, bills, health insurance, liability insurance, sent my cameras in for repair and/or cleaning, etc..




Times are tough right now. Photography is one area that people cut back on when the budget is running short. It sounds like you have a market with more photographers that it can sustain. The photographers are basically eating themselves and each other alive in order to find work.

[danameless]

I used to work for a sports photography company that did this when I was in college, and it is a lot more work than you might think. It was a small company, but they had plenty of business as they did shoots all season round depending on the sports (baseball, football, basketball, soccer, etc.) The company had 3 -4 photographers (including the owner), and about 5-6 office staff who covered the customer service roles, processing the orders, and packaging them, etc.

After every shoot, we had hundreds of orders and it was a PAIN trying to get them in order. Parents NEVER complete the forms correctly and we spent days trying to get the orders figured out, making sure we use the right kid for the order, getting them to the lab on time, etc. Once the orders came back, we would get like 50-60 boxes of orders, and now came the tedious work of trying to figure out who gets what, which ones get mailed out via UPS because the parents paid extra for it, which ones will be picked up, checking each and every single photo to make sure they looked good, orders were correct, etc. etc. etc. Imagine this everyday, all year around. And as others mentioned, this is the admin piece of it - does not even include the business end of it that the owners handled.

If you think this is for you, then go for it! But I have to agree, if you can collect 30% for nothing, sounds better to me.

[Tigershark]

If someone is giving you 30% then you are certainly in an area that charges a premium or else someone deparately needs the work. some areas of the country have better margins, I can tell you my profit margin is no where near 50% and I could not afford to give 30% back to any league, if I did I might as well close down shop and sell everything.

[wyofizz]

Good compromise. Give the 100 a try.
I don't know how busy you are with running the organization but once you start shooting you will be consumed processing the pics, delivering and post sales cleanup.
This may detract from your other responsibilities.

Things to think about:
Hard and fast business axiom- "Stick with what you do best"
If you fail at this how might it affect your standing in the organization?

Dave

[bwolford]

Someone told me a I do a great job of running my photography business and now they want me to run their sports organization. Should I do it?

[Gatorboy]

I run a sports organization with over 1,000 kids. I outsource the team photos every season to a company that gives me 15% back. However, I am thinking about starting my own photography business on the side, and keeping 100% for the organization!

100% to the organization ... sounds like a business model that is doomed from the beginning.

[Picturesports]

I think it has all been said, but just for the "fun" of it I kept a close eye on my time this weekend as I covered the New Zealand National School Karting.

A part from the fact it was freezing and it rained. The sky was dull and the Mk3 was having trouble with the lack of contrast - the 50D saved the day, but that is a different story - I did the following

Driving - 6 Hours
At the track - total of 11 hours
Post Processing and tagging the images for uploading - 12 hours
Press, Organisation, sponsors and magazine requests - 3 hours of e-mailing

Today has been quiet just processing the odd e-mail enquiry while the web site processes the orders (I love technology !!!)

That is a 32 hour weekend for one fair size Kart meeting.

1000 Kids will take weeks to process during which time you are doing nothing else. Your 'day job" backs up.

There is nothing stopping anyone getting in to photography. It is a free market and everyone is entitled to have a go, just take a careful look at what you are letting yourself in for. Taking photos is "easy" it is the rest of it that is a "insert female dog here" :lol:

[Rubi Jane]

There are ways to minimize your processing & packing time. Find a vendor/supplier that will take your images on disk, colour correct, print/produce the order, package the orders by teams and ship it all back to you.

You'll pay more for this service rather than using a ROES system but your time will be available for other things.

Contact www.mvpcards.com and inquire about their LEAP system. Get their pricing, work up you package pricing and then see what profit you'd make. This assumes you have the photographic experience, gear, photographers and asisstants lined up for photo day.

Good luck.

[Josh101]

so far everybody has mentioned the costs and the time involved in this type of venture. To photograph and position 1000 kids takes quite a bit of time. last year at my school we had a team of 6 come in to shoot our school of a little less than 1200 kids. there were 4 stations (seperate studios, lights, backdrops, cameras, ect) meaning 4 photographers at the same time as well as 2 other admins who organized and alphabetized the lines.

it took 2 days back to back of continuous shooting from 8:35am until 3:20pm to have all of the portraits shot, and that was with 4 photographers not to countless hours to package and process all photographs. now, imagine doing this alone, with all post processing. it would take an individual at least two weeks operating on standard business hours.


to the origional poster, the lack of knowlage on the camera shows your lack of experiance. not to be rude, but you should know full and well what you need to acomplish the job otherwise i would say that you or anybody else in your situation is not able to fulfill the needs for the job. not only do most professional photographers have years of experiance, but also professional photographers have thousands of dolars spent in equipment alone.

one last thing that many people in your position do not think about, or realize is that professional photograpers do photography as a career, many have expenses, house payments, significant others, and a family that they need to provide for, if everybody decided to do it theirself, not only would the quality be significantly declined, but said photographers would have a much harder time trying to make ends meet. In simple i am saying that you should do what you do best, and let other professionals do what they do best because it benefits all parties, especially when you are receiving the benefit of 15% for doing no work at all.

to be quite honest, if i could receive 15% and not have to do anything for it, i would much rather take that route instead of dealing with taxes, laws and licensing, sometimes unhappy customers, hours of work, and thousands in equipment.

[SoccerRef]

If you like what you are currently getting (and more importantly if the kids' parents like what they are currently getting) than stick with what you've got.

That guy offering you 30%... He's trying to break into the business. You'll get 30% this year, next year 20% and before too long, you'll be lucky to get 15%. And there is no guarantee that his quality will be the same or better, and I would bet it couldn't be.

Are his prices similar to the company you currently have? Or are they more? (Like 15% more!) Think about it this way, for every dollar the photog gives you, he overcharged YOUR members by one dollar. It is much more important to keep your members happy, or they'll take their kids elsewhere...

I have had organizations ask about a kickback and I tell them straight out, I don't do it. And I don't because in order to do that, I have to charge more and I won't do that. I have lost two gigs, and I'm fine with that...

[snails]

Someone told me a I do a great job of running my photography business and now they want me to run their sports organization. Should I do it?

I don't know, it sounds easy, right? Don't you just set a schedule and keep score? ;)

[Joe300]

OP,
When it is all said and done think about getting back about 1/3 of gross sales from that 1000 kids..then get a new lens or camera.. or some other gear for the next photo job.
Most leagues would like to have a 10-15% kick back to the league. too. + all of the above pointers... you have the drive make it happen.

Joe