Some people need to ge their heads on straight..

[Karl Johnston]

I received an email from a couple of photographers who ran a workshop last year. They were wondering if I would, personally, like to join it again and work for them for this town event that happens every year.

My previous experience with these guys was extremely negative. They gave me and another guy some gear (nikon I might add..:lol:a d40 and its kit lens)and no instruction whatsoever...just go out and shoot the event. Afterward we returned the gear and never heard from them, but were told in writing an in email that the copyright stayed with us.

Wrong. Copyright is possessed by the organization they were receiving funding from...our images were useless and used in mass media and advertising, sold by them.

I felt pretty used and conned by this but apparently they're doing another "workshop" this year.

So I had a notice that asked if I was interested in signing up again...:rolleyes:basically a repeat of last year and the gimmick of being able to use "real professional equipment" and learning from them. Here's a line from the e-mail

"you're off to a good start but you're still a beginning photographer and we have the tools and people necessary to making your photography a real business. Your photographs are good - not great - but decent and we think we could really help you along getting your work the exposure it needs"


---Uh...okay that doesn't exactly make me feel anything but insulted----

Today I get this notice in the mail...from the same people and the host of their workshop. The organization is personally addressed to me and here's a line from it

"Dear Karl, we respect your work, your photography and are hearing a lot about your new business and your art"

"Your contribution will be greatly appreciated and you will be recognized by our board program and a thank you notice will be mailed to your address if you would be interested in donating $100-10 000 to support (the event and workshop)."


So let me get this straight. They want me and my business that they recognize as being so respected ... to pay THEM to sponsor these knuckleheads that think I'm not serious about what I do and how I run my business...that want to "teach me to get the exposure I need" to succeed using my photography.

bw!Yeah I'll get right on that let me write you guys a check for $99 ....

[gravy graffix]

wtf... blacklist them...

[thebishopp]

Wrong. Copyright is possessed by the organization they were receiving funding from...our images were useless and used in mass media and advertising, sold by them.

....


Not sure where you live but in the U.S. that is only true if YOU signed something which stated this. No one can sign away your copyright unless you, the copyright holder, have given them permission to do so (usually a contract of some sort). In fact I'm not aware of too many countries where some random business or person can sign papers in your name giving up things you own without you first giving permission for them to do so. Actually I can't even believe I am trying to explain this concept LOL.

Anyway point being, at least in the U.S., if you didn't sign anything giving it away then you hold the copyright.

If you live in the U.S. I sure hope you had those suckers registered with the copyright office. If not you should do so. If you want to be able to ask for statutatory damamge (750.00 - 150,000.00) and attorney fees you have to have registered your images within an alloted time frame. If not you can still ask for actual value of the photos used by those corporations.

BUT... if you DID sign something (or send an email agreeing) that you are giving up your copyright (like agreeing to a work for hire contract that states so) or some other language with allowed the people who hired you to give away your copyright then, at least under U.S. law, you still own that copyright. Now you state that you have an email from them saying you retain copyright. If that email came after you signed/agreed to the original contract/agreement (presumably the one which gave them your copyright) then that email may be considered an amendment to the the original agreement and you would still have your copyright.

[ScootersDaddy]

So nice of them to be looking out for you and your business. I'd send them a nice properly exposed image of your middle finger.

[Karl Johnston]

BUT... if you DID sign something (or send an email agreeing) that you are giving up your copyright (like agreeing to a work for hire contract that states so) or some other language with allowed the people who hired you to give away your copyright then, at least under U.S. law, you still own that copyright. Now you state that you have an email from them saying you retain copyright. If that email came after you signed/agreed to the original contract/agreement (presumably the one which gave them your copyright) then that email may be considered an amendment to the the original agreement and you would still have your copyright.
Thanks Bishop, that's food for thought right there. You're right, 100%.

I can't remember too much of the details of what I signed or didn't sign, is the sad part. I really should have been keeping records of everything I did, as of last year. I do have this e-mail from them, still, though it has been a long time since hearing from them ... I'd say roughly 8 months.

[moeronn]

Send them a nice picture of a $100 bill. Just make sure you add your own copyright watermark.

[noxcuses1]

It is unfortunate that you don't have the files of the images. Or do you?

I think what they wrote to you is insulting.

[Karl Johnston]

I do actually have the files of the images, the original RAW and DNGs, still.

After a brief search of my hard-drive...yup there they are but I thought I was too far out of bounds from the time of learning of the infringement to the time I had to register (Isn't there a 90 day limit?)

I've got a pretty good feeling that one of the forms I had to sign up for the workshop was to give up my rights to the photographs if I was using their equipment. Not fully sure, but I just have a feeling that somewhere in the fine print of the multiple page document I may have done so :( like I said, I was pretty fresh last year

I'm glad I wasn't just being sensitive :lol: Yeaaaaahhhh...just a tad rude isn't it?

[RDKirk]

Afterward we returned the gear and never heard from them, but were told in writing an in email that the copyright stayed with us.

Wrong. Copyright is possessed by the organization they were receiving funding from...our images were useless and used in mass media and advertising, sold by them.

In the US, you definitely would own the copyright. Under the particular circumstances you were shooting, in the US there is zero way they or the company could own the copyright unless you signed something that explicitly transferred the copyright to them. There is zero question of this being a "work for hire" situation. Merely using their equipment would not give them copyright.

Because you failed to register your copyright before the images were used by the corporation and because they were used some time ago, your options now have some limitations, but in the US you would not be totally out of luck.

If you were in the US, the first thing you would have to do is get those images registered. You could go to copyright.gov and read up on how to do it online.

I'm supposing the infringement by the company on your copyright happened long enough to put you beyond the US 90-day-after-infringement registration grace period. Even at this late date, though, in the US you would have the right to sue the company for at least the fee they would have paid a professional to have done the work for them--and court costs.

Even if you would have decided it was not be worthwhile for you to actually take them to court, but you could pay an American lawyer to write them a stern letter with an invoice, they might send you a check.

[Karl Johnston]

I think I should move to the US, it'd be a lot easier to get advice like this.

I forgot I changed my location, I'm in Canada...but i'm thinking that maybe it would be pretty close to the same.

[thebishopp]

I think I should move to the US, it'd be a lot easier to get advice like this.

I forgot I changed my location, I'm in Canada...but i'm thinking that maybe it would be pretty close to the same.

It probably is pretty simliar but, now I may be wrong, I don't think Canada requires the registration like the U.S. does but I don't know what their copyright penalties are in Canada either.

Anyway what you need to do is get a copy of that agreement. It would be kept on file (it would have to be) and you should be able to get a copy of the one you signed.

Once you review that you can print out your email from them (if you even need it depending on what the contract says) and talk to an attorney.

Now the only hiccup I can see is if the original document you signed gave the company "Co-Copyright" on any images you took using their equipment or when on assignment from them. As a co-copyright holder they could sell those images without any permission from you.

If that is not the case you have the potential for a whopper of a settlement if they are indeed using many of those images in large scale advertising. Again this also depends on Canada's civil penalties for copyright infringement.

[Picture North Carolina]

"you're off to a good start but you're still a beginning photographer and we have the tools and people necessary to making your photography a real business. Your photographs are good - not great - but decent and we think we could really help you along getting your work the exposure it needs"

It's hard to believe somebody would be so stupid they would say something like that. Totally clueless. Rule number one in sales: don't alienate your prospect. Don't begin your pitch with "You're ugly and have bad breath. Now let's talk about my product..." Completely clueless.

[RDKirk]

I forgot I changed my location, I'm in Canada...but i'm thinking that maybe it would be pretty close to the same.

Unfortunately, this point of copyright law is one area where Canada is very different--and even backward from a creator's point of view--from US law.

In Canada, it's the the "commissioner" of a work who automatically owns the copyright, not the creator, unless the contract explicitly transfers the copyright to the creator.

[Karl Johnston]

In Canada, it's the the "commissioner" of a work who automatically owns the copyright, not the creator, unless the contract explicitly transfers the copyright to the creator.
I was thinking of that, today. I know in journalism if you shoot for the newspaper using the newspaper's equipment, employed by the newspaper, then they have a part of the rights to the images, too.

It clicked when I read Nightstalker's post, here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=8255533&postcount=3)

I think because I was shooting for the workshop, using their equipment, then I'm just out of luck. I probably unknowingly agreed to this by applying to the program. Just another lesson learned; always read the fine print.

Though I do have written emails from the coordinator stating the copyright belongs to me...maybe just enough of it to say that the image was mine, but still give them the rest of the rights to do what they wanted with it, too.

Fortunately the shots, while a lot of them, weren't that great ...in fact at the end of it, last year, they actually voiced how disappointed they were because they figured we could get a lot more and have a lot better shots. This struck me as weird, at the time, but it made sense in the end when I realized where they all went.

Oh well, still...pretty funny that they'd think I'd be interested in doing anything for them again..especially after calling me a bloody beginner :(

[F4 Cyborg]

Send them a ruler explaining that it is the all new rave. Explain that it is the new seating for advanced companies like theirs. Ask them to write a small report on it's comfort and include the markings for the point in which it became uncomfortable, so you can pass this info along tech department. Send them a Thank You notice and make sure they understand that any and all removal expenses are at there own expense. Tell them since they are at the start of this type of work they will be unpaid. Also tell them that next year the company is going to be using fireplugs as seating model's. Again remind them that all removal cost's if any are at there own expense.

[neil_r]

I think there scam is good but they are just beginning scammers. I have the tools and people to make their scamming a real business.

Their scam is good.. not great but decent and I think I can help them in getting their scam the exposure it deserves.

[Karl Johnston]

Send them a ruler explaining that it is the all new rave. Explain that it is the new seating for advanced companies like theirs. Ask them to write a small report on it's comfort and include the markings for the point in which it became uncomfortable, so you can pass this info along tech department. Send them a Thank You notice and make sure they understand that any and all removal expenses are at there own expense. Tell them since they are at the start of this type of work they will be unpaid. Also tell them that next year the company is going to be using fireplugs as seating model's. Again remind them that all removal cost's if any are at there own expense.
:lol: Wow that was hilarious