Need help on panning

[darkcbr1000rr]

Everytime I pan I get the blur but my subjects aren't in sharp. I only use my center AF point and have tried to switch to AI servo and AI focus but just doesn't focus my subjects most of the time.

Can anybody give me some setup tips they have for action shots. I'm using a 20D. The image below is one of the sharpest I have taken out of 300 shots at USGP over the weekend.

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae59/darkcbr1000rr/_MG_1776.jpg

[Dredd123]

Hi there,

I'm still learning and practicing, but I think one particular piece of information which was not obvious to me has helped me improve:

Ensure that you focus on one area of the moving object, preferably an area with high contrast.

What this means in practice is that as you are following the moving object with the camera, you are looking at, and the camera is focusing on, one very specific bit of the moving object. I normally use the central focus point and aim that at the point I want to focus on and follow with my eye. Before I was advised of this, I found I was looking at the moving object (car, bike, whatever) as a whole, rather than one particular point on the object. This allowed the camera to lead or lag the object slightly as I was panning.


Hope that makes sense, and keep practicing.

Dave.

[Ingsy]

Good point. For example, in the image above you would want to keep th efocus point on the wording PETRONAS, as that black lettering on a white background would be easier for the camera to focus on.

One good tip I had from another thread on this board is to point your body where you'll be at the end of the pan, and then rotate from your hips to the start. This means that when you follow the car/bike/whatever, as you're turning, you are turning back to your normal body position (I hope this is making sense!).

I found this way made it much easier for me to be smooth while panning.

[mrbigisbudgood]

Sit on your front porch and practice on the cars going by.

[pappawheely]

What shutter speed and f-stop were you shooting at? It looks pretty slow. If you are shooting that slow try to shoot with a wider depth of field. Bikes are dificult because they are small subjects traveling at high speed and they move in several directions when the rider leans in the corner. Sometimes the camera just can't focus on them. Do you follow the bike before the turn and follow through with your body after the shot? With panning it could be several things (1) body motion/technique (2) focus (3) motion of the rider. The slower you shoot, the less chance you have of getting it sharp. In this first side shot I was not shooting that slow. The car is flying fast, stable and parallel to my focal plane so it is sharp. 1/100, F/9, 120mm zoom


http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq235/pappawheely/canon%20forum/IMG_4418copy.jpg

This second shot was taken much slower and the truck is going away and twisting. It is less sharp but I was shooting with a wider depth of field, the truck side is larger than a bike so the camera can achieve focus and my technique was sound. 1/60, F/16, 130mm zoom



http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq235/pappawheely/IMG_3111.jpg

[Lowner]

I've always struggled with the kind of pan you are trying to achieve, but have learnt that I must use a monopod because it limits the movement to one direction only. But beware that using one takes practise.

I have much more success shooting at an angle to the track. Even better just after a corner or chicane has slowed Valentino or Georgeous Gorge to a speed I can manage. I prefer to use high shutter speeds and freeze the action, because I like detail and am not too bothered by the lack of apparent movement.

The shot I've attached used 1/1250s at f/9 working at iso400 with a 100-400mm L IS and shows how I get around the problem.

Forgot to mention, I use a 30d, so similar kit.

[darkcbr1000rr]

The shot of Rossi was taken at 1/250 at 9.0. Thanks for the tips guy. I'll try them out over this weekend.

[unbeatable]

@darkcbr1000rr
I'm having the same problem as you... I'm still learning... I'll get it right one day... lol

[Schwany]

It's like riding a bicycle. Eventually it all happens automatically. It might take 7 years though, so don't expect it to come together right away.

Panning for a blurred background isn't like the high speed shutter corner shots where you're going for composition and a specific look. You really do have to keep the focal point (usually the center one) dead on the subject and move fluidly. You can't worry about anything else. If you are lucky, you may find a position to shoot from on the track where the background isn't the ugliest place on earth. One has to work with what they get. Amateurs don't get too many choices as to where they can shoot. If you nail the bike, you're probably doing better than the guy who is worried about the background anyway.

Shoot with both eyes open, pre-focus to the first place on the track where you can see the rider coming toward you. I often follow the rider through fencing, trees, corner workers, or whatever, but I don't press the focus button until the obstacles are out of the way. I use the rear button as the focus button (40D) so that I can separate focus from shutter release as well as metering. When the bike starts to fill the frame enough, I press the shutter release and burn off as many frames as the camera will allow. Ideally you want to fill most of the frame with the bike as it passes closest to you and is parallel to the front of the lens surface. Not real easy to do. Cheating with a wider lens is allowed. ;-)

Get big CF cards. With my 40D I feel lucky if I hit 60%. Don't review constantly in the field once you get your exposure parameters set. You'll miss events if your looking at the LCD too much.

1/250th and f9 was good for panning at the USGP until the clouds burned off. I think I may have ended up at f11-13 when it got really bright. If I had ISO25 I would have shot around f8. The hot dogs are shooting at 1/120th. Some can shoot at lower shutter speeds.

I use manual exposure. Shutter priority works pretty good on cars, but not so great on bikes. I feel the camera is slightly more responsive when it doesn't have to think about the exposure. I don't use mode 2 IS. I only have one lens with IS right now and it slows down the FPS and doesn't help on my particular IS lens anyway.

I am not an authority. I'm just passing on things I do that seem to work at least 50% of the time. Below is not a good example of anything I just mentioned, I just like the heat signature.

http://www.schwany.com/09motogp/VRossi01572_8x6.jpg

[R Mutt]

I'd say the most important aspect of panning is being body conscious. The upper half of your body should be stoic, you can have the exact camera settings, track an object perfectly but if your arms are flapping around like a dead fish you're going to fail. I like to jam my left elbow in my gut as a reminder to be smooth and motionless.

I don't know if it's because of repetition but I don't like picking out a specific point on the object, when I began I was told to concentrate on a mirror or riders hand, the fixation usually caused me to blow it. I will occasionally put a focal point on the front of a car/bike but that's about as regional as it gets. The 2 eye approach works great for me as well and if you're shooting with long lenses is a much safer approach.

Probably the best advice is do about 10,000 images a week :cool:

Here's a few pics of differing shutter speed.

1/200th

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/Photos/potn/ama/1.jpg

1/80th
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/Photos/potn/ama/2.jpg

1/100th
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/Photos/potn/ama/3.jpg

[Schwany]

Probably the best advice is do about 10,000 images a week :cool:



Plus get on the side of the track where the light is on the entire bike.

Nice examples Ron.

[unbeatable]

are you serious? 10,000 a week? I did 400 last time and nothing comes out good... lol so I kinda give up shooting and start reading on panning...

[darkcbr1000rr]

Nice shots of Bostrom, Blake, and Mercado, Mutt.

[DennisW1]

I've always struggled with the kind of pan you are trying to achieve, but have learnt that I must use a monopod because it limits the movement to one direction only. But beware that using one takes practise.

I have much more success shooting at an angle to the track. Even better just after a corner or chicane has slowed Valentino or Georgeous Gorge to a speed I can manage. I prefer to use high shutter speeds and freeze the action, because I like detail and am not too bothered by the lack of apparent movement.

The shot I've attached used 1/1250s at f/9 working at iso400 with a 100-400mm L IS and shows how I get around the problem.

Forgot to mention, I use a 30d, so similar kit.


that is a great shot, but the topic here really is the technique of panning with a moving vehicle to get the blur of the background and the impression of speed.

[Lowner]

Dennis,

I understand. I fully appreciate the OP's problem, believe me I've had enough failures trying it. All I was trying to show is that there are other approaches which will allow him to go home with something in the bag.

One thing I notice that has not been mentioned is the benefit that panning from the inside of a bend can have, with the subject rotating around the camera position.

Learning to pan and hold a 200mph bike steady in the frame is a real nightmare. I am constantly amazed at how TV cameras follow golf balls in flight, now that is talent and years of constant practise.

Heres a rather poor pan which represents the best of a whole days shooting at Thruxton, my local track. So believe me, I do understand the problems.

[neil_r]

Practice, Practice Practice.... its the only way I often hear people near or behind me at the track firing off in a spry and pray flurry of shots. Personally I set the drive to the slower option and try and get my pan shots with a single exposure.

But it is down to practice. Some of the examples posted above are three quarter shots which are a lot easier to accomplish (and to me more pleasing)

But with practice you will eventually find it relatively easy to get in the 90% keeper rate.

Something that people tend to ignore is the quality of the surroundings, try and avoid intrusive advertising hoardings and fire extinguishers and orange marshals can ruin what would otherwise be a great shot.

Good luck.

1/60 s - f/9 - 300mm f/2.8 - EOS 1D MkIIn
http://www.nhr-photography.com/galleries/motorsix_donnington/slides/Donington_March_2009_NHR4097.jpg

[pappawheely]

I think you can get some interesting shots by adding clutter to the background. ;)

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq235/pappawheely/canon%20forum/IMG_4392.jpg

[weezerfan84]

Could be worse. This was my first try at panning yesterday, and I wasn't all that thrilled. Would have been easier if I didn't go out on a ridiculously sunny day to show my buddy how to ride a bike. Would have been nicer with a longer lens as well. Just had my 40D and 85 1.8. Many of mine came out at f/16 or f/11.

It was fun and I'm sure with more practice I'll get better. I missed focus on many, but I did have a few keepers.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=722808

[ryant35]

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/IMG_1079-1.jpg
Sometimes a simple background works.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/IMG_2283.jpg
As well as I busy background.

[Bosscat]

It all comes down to practice as everyone has said. Even under the lights.

[weezerfan84]

Looks like I'm just going to have to practice more. When I look at these I can definitely tell that mine are really soft.

Any tips on settings using a 40D? I used AI Servo and high speed. It seemed all of mine came out a little soft, which is a little frustrating.

[Chad Truss]

I am no panning expert (yet) but here is what I do and I think this may be a great way to get started for a beginner......

Set your camera to Shutter speed priority.
Set your shutter speed to 1/60 sec.
Set your focus to AF-Servo.
And for starters, keep the AF center weighted.

Now the key to getting a good pan is to be sure you are 100% comfortable when holding your camera. If this means you need to sit down, sit down. Do whatever you need to do to get comfortable.

When holding your camera, place your hand under it to support it. Keep your arms in tight to help with support.

Focus and start panning your subject way before the point you want to start taking photos so you are already lined up and focused when you hit the location where you want to shoot.

Hold that shutter button down and snap off as many photos in a row as you can while you continue to pan. And make sure you follow through past your photo spot. Just like in golf, the pre and post parts of the swing are key.

Now to make panning easier you need to get further away from your subject. If one of those motorcycles is passing you at 80 mph and you are only 50 feet from it, that thing is flying by fast. If you are standing 300 feet back, the motorcycle will take much longer to pass in front of you. Because if this I have had my best luck shooting at 200mm or greater on the zoom. The slower your subject is going, the closer you can get.


Again, I am no expert, and my pans aren't perfect, but here are some examples.

1/25 sec, f16 200mm
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2454/3565514986_1b4185238d.jpg

1/80 sec, f22 150mm
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3543/3352020543_80e2f5fd94_o.jpg

1/60 sec, f11 135mm
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2482/3719047096_aa469b41f7_o.jpg

[weezerfan84]

I don't think I was as comfortable as I would have liked to have been. I want to go out where it's not so sunny next time as well. I may bring out my tripod next time and get setup properly. I'm sure my arms were moving quite a bit while I was panning.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will keep all of them in mind.

[Chad Truss]

Monopods and tripods will hinder your movement. I would recommend not using them.

[Schwany]

Looks like I'm just going to have to practice more. When I look at these I can definitely tell that mine are really soft.

Any tips on settings using a 40D? I used AI Servo and high speed. It seemed all of mine came out a little soft, which is a little frustrating.

You'll figure out what works for you eventually if you stick with it. A lot of
the images are over sharpened by the way. So don't be fooled by that.
Only time the shots are ultra sharp is when the subject nearly fills the
entire frame, or the pilot has his or her hand or foot off the throttle. :lol:

Lenses make a big difference in focus speed and accuracy, but you'll never
get people to agree on that. If you're seeing a lot of softness, it could be
motion blur caused by not keeping up with the subject or minor camera
movement when the shutter button is pressed. Other reasons also apply,
and are numerous. I sometimes lift up at the end of my swing, and that
wreaks havoc on what could have been a good pan capture.

You don't need to pan at 1/60th to get good motion blur in the background.
1/120th on a vehicle doing 120MPH works just as well.

AI-servo, center focus point, the rest is up to personal taste really.

[weezerfan84]

I'm just going to keep practicing. I'm hoping I can improve a little more each time I go out.

[Chad Truss]

You don't need to pan at 1/60th to get good motion blur in the background.
1/120th on a vehicle doing 120MPH works just as well.

AI-servo, center focus point, the rest is up to personal taste really.

These things I mentioned were only starting points. 1/60 sec shutter speed, AF-S, and center focus is a great place to start if you are still trying to learn panning.

Yes, a car traveling 120mph can look fast with a 1/125 sec shutter speed, but if you really want the background blur you need to slow down the shutter. I said 1/60 sec because that is slow enough to really capture speed, but at the same time the shutter speed is fast enough that you can conceivably hold the camera steady enough to get a nice capture.

And you are right, the lens does make a difference.

When I rent a pro lens 70-200mm lens with vibration reduction, my pans come out way better. A great example is that first pan in my post above. Pro lens, vibration reduction, and I was able to get a decent capture at 1/25 sec shutter speed.

[DC Fan]

1/60 worked with Ken Schrader in his ARCA stock car.

http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing/04042009a0949.jpg

The front of the car is soft, but that's what happens when you use a slow shutter speed.

Smoothness is the key. Control and placement of the center point on the target makes a difference.

One old trick that might help: take your lead foot, the one toward the direction where the target is heading, and point it at the mark where you want to take the shot. Use that foot and leg as your main pivot pont as you turn to follow the target.

[Chad Truss]

That footwork tip is a good one. Kinda like pointing your shoulder where you want the frisbie to go when you throw it.

[Schwany]

Chad,

I wasn't really referring to your post. What I was driving at is 1/60th is a
difficult shutter speed for somebody getting started and asking for help.

The first little bit of advice I got was shoot at 1/250th as wide open as
possible and work your way down to slower shutter speeds. I still shoot at
1/320th when I have a full frame of subject in extremely bright light. It
doesn't take a lot of lens motion when using a prime to create background
streaking.

Anywho, as long as it's fun and one gets the job done.

So far I agree with everyone, but still do it my way. :)

These things I mentioned were only starting points. 1/60 sec shutter speed, AF-S, and center focus is a great place to start if you are still trying to learn panning.

Yes, a car traveling 120mph can look fast with a 1/125 sec shutter speed, but if you really want the background blur you need to slow down the shutter. I said 1/60 sec because that is slow enough to really capture speed, but at the same time the shutter speed is fast enough that you can conceivably hold the camera steady enough to get a nice capture.

And you are right, the lens does make a difference.

When I rent a pro lens 70-200mm lens with vibration reduction, my pans come out way better. A great example is that first pan in my post above. Pro lens, vibration reduction, and I was able to get a decent capture at 1/25 sec shutter speed.

[Chad Truss]

Chad,

I wasn't really referring to your post. What I was driving at is 1/60th is a
difficult shutter speed for somebody getting started and asking for help.

The first little bit of advice I got was shoot at 1/250th as wide open as
possible and work your way down to slower shutter speeds. I still shoot at
1/320th when I have a full frame of subject in extremely bright light. It
doesn't take a lot of lens motion when using a prime to create background
streaking.

Anywho, as long as it's fun and one gets the job done.

So far I agree with everyone, but still do it my way. :)

Oh thats cool. I just had this impression you thought we may be steering him the wrong way.

So what is your zoom at when you can get enough streaking at 1/320?

[Schwany]

Oh thats cool. I just had this impression you thought we may be steering him the wrong way.

So what is your zoom at when you can get enough streaking at 1/320?


Uh Oh, this sounds like a trap. One of those that's not streaky enough
traps. I usually try to get them at anywhere between 1/120th and 1/250th.
However, if I end up having to stop down more than f13 in ISO 100, I will
go to 1/320th to get my f stop back around f9-f11.

I pan with a 135f/2L, 200f/2.8L, a 300f/4L IS and a 400F5.6L. The only
zoom I have is a 16-35f/2.8L. I also have a 28-135, but I don't like it for
anything but indoor flash shots.

If the frame is nearly full of the vehicle and I'm following one at 100+ MPH,
the streaking in the background looks OK to me. Might not to anyone else
though. I'm more concerned about the details on the subject than I am
about the quality of the streaks in the background. Maybe I have my
priorities crossed up.

I did have to dig around to find anything shot at 1/320th. Got two.
Dovizioso is playing around here. Not going fast enough for 1/320th.

http://www.schwany.com/09motogp/Dovizioso02631_8x6.jpg

Tommy Hayden is at speed below. This would have been better all around if
shot at 1/200th, but it's at 1/320th. Multiple Jpeg saves has beat it to death too.
http://www.schwany.com/motorcyclesAMA/TommyH3213_8x6d.jpg

I don't like wasting my time all that much, and I know what my limits are.
I'm just passing on a couple of thoughts on how to get reasonable results
fairly early on in the learning curve. This one below is 1/250th.

http://www.schwany.com/09motogp/VRossi03102_8x6c.jpg

In closing. I didn't know there was a "we". My bad.

[Chad Truss]

No trap. I am relatively new to panning and I simply assumed all or most panning shots had to be shot at 1/100 sec or slower.

Thank you for showing me otherwise.

[george m w]

Practice, practice, practice. I too use the technique described where I point my body at where I'm going to end my pan, and swivel at the hips. Sometimes I use the monopod, but I usually prefer the fluid motion of just hand holding. Here's the exif for the attached shot:

File Name GU2E0635.JPG
Camera Model Canon EOS-1D Mark II
Firmware Firmware Version 1.2.6
Shooting Date/Time 5/24/2009 10:39:58 AM
Owner's Name
Shooting Mode Shutter-Priority AE
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/60
Av( Aperture Value ) 13.0
Metering Mode Evaluative Metering
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 160
Lens 400.0mm
Focal Length 400.0mm
Image Size 3504x2336
Image Quality RAW
Flash Off
White Balance Mode Auto
AF Mode AI Servo AF
Parameters Settings Tone Curve Standard

[pappawheely]

To practice the body motion used while panning get a soup bowl filled with water. Stand with your feet spread as wide as your shoulders. Holding the bowl in front of you like you would a camera. Pull your elbows in against your sides. Rotate your torso at the hips back and forth keeping your upper body still enough so you dont spill the water. Once you master the body movement you can experiment with all the camera settings, lens selection and distance to subject variables.

[Chad Truss]

Kinda like using tofu containers to learn how to drift. lol

[WayneB]

I am just an amateur photographer but I will give my opinion anyway, start panning at a speed you feel comfortable with and work your way down. If you're starting out panning
fast moving bikes at 1/60th you will get frustrated fast, panning practice at track days helps also.

[ryant35]

I am just an amateur photographer but I will give my opinion anyway, start panning at a speed you feel comfortable with and work your way down. If you're starting out panning
fast moving bikes at 1/60th you will get frustrated fast, panning practice at track days helps also.

yup. 1/250 is my go to shutter speed for most motorsports. Most of the time I go much lower for a few shots.

[WayneB]

Here is a practice panning shot I did at 1/80th
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee99/Wayneb123/Rider534.jpg

Here is some old USGP photos I took back when they started the USGP at Laguna.
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208674

[WayneB]

I usually shoot at 1/250th or less for panning shots.
Here is one at 1/250th.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee99/Wayneb123/JasonCurtis.jpg